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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: cwgolden99 on November 15, 2007, 01:48:25 AM
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I'm taking a business law class and tonights topic was contracts. Which got me thinking, do I need one. Do any of you have contracts with the church that you are faithful members of, not just paid musicians. Let me know, if you do and whats in it.
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I personally think churches need to do contracts since musicians are not reliable.
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I firmly believe in executing contracts for any working relationship, in or out of the church, whether volunteer or paid.
I always recommend client churches to put all their staff (paid or unpaid) on contracts. It clarifies and "sets in stone" the expectations of the employer and the employee, and can be modified as needs or expectations change.
Your agreement (contract) should include your role, responsibilities, expectations, and the employer's expectations of you. This, of course, includes your salary, any disciplinary procedures, benefits, etc.
It does not have to be a 13-page document, nor does it need to be full of a bunch of legalese (although it is helpful to have an attorney review it for legality).
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I personally think churches need to do contracts since musicians are not reliable.
See but I am reliable, I have been a faithful tithing member, (even when there was no money involved), I'm on the board and even when I got sat down I was still there attending faithfully from the chairs. I see where a contract can be a good thing but is it the best thing for everybody, regardless of membership?
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See but I am reliable, I have been a faithful tithing member, (even when there was no money involved), I'm on the board and even when I got sat down I was still there attending faithfully from the chairs. I see where a contract can be a good thing but is it the best thing for everybody, regardless of membership?
Yes.
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Thanks LaRue, does any one have a sample one that you can send me?
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I can probably send you a skeleton... but I gotta find it... lol.
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Hello LaRue, will you send me a skeleton contract also. Thanks in advance.
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I personally think musicians need to do contracts since churches are not reliable. ;)
I've been playing at a church for a year, and have no contract, and have had no problems when it comes to payment or anything. (though I still havent gotten my 1099 or whatever you call it. And I'm not a member, if that matters, but I'm there faithfully every Sunday morning on time, though I told them I cant do evening services, as I aint tryin to be in church all day :D
I say it depends on the church. Some churches know how to do business, and some are wishy washy. Obviously, the same goes for some musicians.
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Sure, I'd be glad to.
By the way, CWG, did I ever send it to you? I don't remember sending it, but I will if you still need it.
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No LaRue you never sent it, I'll pm you my info. Thanks
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No LaRue you never sent it, I'll pm you my info. Thanks
I just sent it.
Hello LaRue, will you send me a skeleton contract also. Thanks in advance.
I'll need your e-mail address.
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I've completed my law degree and I totally understand where you are coming from "cwgolden99", it makes you see things in a whole new light. At the church I attend we don't have contracts for anyone and I feel that this is much needed especially for those who are paid.
PianoWiz...
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Yes, we use covenant contracts.
The issue, and it's not a big one, is trying to 'remind' grown folks that they signed this covenant agreement when an issue needs to be addressed. Somehow one isn't speaking in love when they need to, constantly, tell someone about their lateness or what have you. ::) :-\
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Yes, we use covenant contracts.
The issue, and it's not a big one, is trying to 'remind' grown folks that they signed this covenant agreement when an issue needs to be addressed. Somehow one isn't speaking in love when they need to, constantly, tell someone about their lateness or what have you. ::) :-\
Maybe it'll sound lovely if you said, "I like how late you are! Maybe we should all come late too?"
;D ;D
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Maybe it'll sound lovely if you said, "I like how late you are! Maybe we should all come late too?"
;D ;D
So, you're saying I shouldn't have it said it that way, last week? ?/? :-\
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I've completed my law degree and I totally understand where you are coming from "cwgolden99", it makes you see things in a whole new light. At the church I attend we don't have contracts for anyone and I feel that this is much needed especially for those who are paid.
PianoWiz...
I wish i had a contract with my church. Not so much for me but so that duties and responsibilities can be understood and properly dealt out by the church leadership. I don't like working in the type of environment where "Oh whoever can play should play and we don't really care so long as it gets don". Its all too nebulous for me. :-\
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If an individual is volunteering...why does he need to sign a contract?
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At my previous church, our P&W leader had created contracts for the praise team members, basically just saying that we will be on time for rehearsals, give advance noticve for absence, accountability for one another, respectful of others, etc,....stuff like that.
Pastor's wife was part of the Praise team, but refused to sign it....said it had no part in church.....doesn't understand why there would be a need for a contract.
I agree with sjon, that the other issue is reminding ppl of the contract you signed. We all agreed to dedicate whatever day we have rehearsal on....yet ppl still show up late, or don't show at all...and its unfair for the ones who do show up. Why is it so hard to just get ppl to follow simple directions?
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Pastor's wife was part of the Praise team, but refused to sign it....said it had no part in church.....doesn't understand why there would be a need for a contract.
I'm guessing she was one of the offenders.
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I personally think churches need to do contracts since musicians are not reliable.
You said a mouthful there! I've stopped trying to figure out why muscians are so undependable. I just make sure I know a lot of em', lol, so when one doesn't show up, then I know another one to call. And then you got to fast and pray that they will show up like they said they would. ::)
Anyway, I can see how a contract would not be a bad idea, especially for a church.
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If an individual is volunteering...why does he need to sign a contract?
I firmly believe in executing contracts for any working relationship, in or out of the church, whether volunteer or paid.
I always recommend client churches to put all their staff (paid or unpaid) on contracts. It clarifies and "sets in stone" the expectations of the employer and the employee, and can be modified as needs or expectations change.
Your agreement (contract) should include your role, responsibilities, expectations, and the employer's expectations of you. This, of course, includes your salary, any disciplinary procedures, benefits, etc.
It does not have to be a 13-page document, nor does it need to be full of a bunch of legalese (although it is helpful to have an attorney review it for legality).
As I stated earlier in the thread, the contract/agreement can be as beneficial to the employee/volunteer as it is to the employer/manager. If nothing else, the volunteer will know clearly what is expected of him so that he may perform in excellence.
Regarding the issue of "reminding people" of their agreement, I haven't had that problem since I started actually holding people to their agreements. The Bible says that sometimes you have to chastise people openly so that others will be fearful (of the consequences). I have no problem telling a latecomer that I appreciate their efforts, but we don't allow latecomers to rehearsal, so they can be excused. Likewise, I don't have a problem telling someone who wasn't in rehearsal, or is out of uniform (even slightly) that they can't sing this week. Although my church members don't like it, I don't mind telling all the ushers that they can't serve this week because they don't have their nametags or whatever.
I'm reminded of my HS Spanish teacher, Sra. Hattar. I couldn't stand that woman. When the bell rang, she locked the door. Period. She didn't care if you were right on the other side, 3 steps away from the doorknob. If your foot had not crossed the threshhold when the bell rang, you had to go get a late pass. Needless to say, her students did not dilly dally on their way to her class, because we knew that we'd get locked out.
It's harsh. But, it works. It may take a few weeks for people to catch on, but after while, if their heart is in ministry, they will abide by the rules so that they can do ministry decently and in order.
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The Bible says that sometimes you have to chastise people openly so that others will be fearful (of the consequences).
What scripture is that, please?
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What scripture is that, please?
II Timothy 5:20, I think?
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II Timothy 5:20, I think?
Nope. It's I Tim. 5:20. Sorry.
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Regarding the issue of "reminding people" of their agreement, I haven't had that problem since I started actually holding people to their agreements. The Bible says that sometimes you have to chastise people openly so that others will be fearful (of the consequences). I have no problem telling a latecomer that I appreciate their efforts, but we don't allow latecomers to rehearsal, so they can be excused. Likewise, I don't have a problem telling someone who wasn't in rehearsal, or is out of uniform (even slightly) that they can't sing this week. Although my church members don't like it, I don't mind telling all the ushers that they can't serve this week because they don't have their nametags or whatever.
It's harsh. But, it works. It may take a few weeks for people to catch on, but after while, if their heart is in ministry, they will abide by the rules so that they can do ministry decently and in order.
I dont really agree with that. I think thats excessive. As for being late to rehearsal, do you consider people's family, work, traffic situations? Sometimes there are things that are simply out of peoples control. and I dont think its right to publicaly humiliate them without hearing them out. If this is a consistent problem, then I can understand.
I have more to say, but time is of the essence.
What scripture is that, please?
The Book of Apostolics, chapter 1 verse 1
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"Let your Yes be Yes, and your No be No" or something to that effect, from the NT.
Many these days have trouble living up to that, lots of "I'll be there" but little follow-through, showing up, late or on time, prepared or not.
I try to let people know when I will be late or not there for rehearsals, services, etc.
My take - signed contracts will have little or no effect on those who do not understand the concept of Covenant...
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I dont really agree with that. I think thats excessive. As for being late to rehearsal, do you consider people's family, work, traffic situations? Sometimes there are things that are simply out of peoples control. and I dont think its right to publicaly humiliate them without hearing them out. If this is a consistent problem, then I can understand.
I have more to say, but time is of the essence.
The Book of Apostolics, chapter 1 verse 1
If that's how it was handled, I'd have to agree with you. But only a jerk would be that unreasonable, surely not a follower of Christ, I'd hope.
In our contracts, the rules state that if they are going to be late, they must call and let the lead servant know. That would be called an "excused" lateness. If you don't call, or you call and don't have a valid excuse, it's called an "unexcused" lateness, and you won't be allowed in. No one in our ministry takes public transportation or anything like that, so there's no way they could be stuck on a train with no signal and no way to call. If you have a rehearsal at 7:30 p.m. and you aren't a block away at 7:27, then you pretty much know you're going to be late. The responsible thing to do is call.
All of our lead servants are trained to be reasonable, but firm, in exercising judgment, so nobody's gonna tell you to go home because you're late after stopping by the side of the road to help a car accident victim or you had a flat tire.
It's about enforcing responsibility.
"Let your Yes be Yes, and your No be No" or something to that effect, from the NT.
Many these days have trouble living up to that, lots of "I'll be there" but little follow-through, showing up, late or on time, prepared or not.
I try to let people know when I will be late or not there for rehearsals, services, etc.
My take - signed contracts will have little or no effect on those who do not understand the concept of Covenant...
No contracts have effect when they aren't enforced. NONE.
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Nope. It's I Tim. 5:20. Sorry.
Thanks.
My take - signed contracts will have little or no effect on those who do not understand the concept of Covenant...
There IS that.
No contracts have effect when they aren't enforced. NONE.
And, there's that, as well. It's a double-sided coin.
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...only a jerk would be that unreasonable, surely not a follower of Christ, I'd hope.
Then a lot of people in the church world don't SEEM saved by their actions.
Some can be more jerky than many in the world - LOL.
I have had leaders insist on getting there early for services and such, yet wait for someone else to scraggle in before they start, thus wasting everyone else's time.
This is more irritating when they are always late - just start without them...
There is one group I sing with (a college choir) where I am often 5-10 minutes late, due to work. It's a large group (about 50-60 people) and they are usually in the midst of warm-ups when I walk in. I have explained my situation to the choir director and plan to email or call when I can't make or will be late for extra rehearsals...
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I wish i had a contract with my church. Not so much for me but so that duties and responsibilities can be understood and properly dealt out by the church leadership. I don't like working in the type of environment where "Oh whoever can play should play and we don't really care so long as it gets don". Its all too nebulous for me. :-\
I understand your point completely "Fenix", a contract can provide clarity, which if you've been in church long enough seems more and more like a good idea especially in situations where you hold any kind of authority.
PianoWiz...
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If that's how it was handled, I'd have to agree with you. But only a jerk would be that unreasonable, surely not a follower of Christ, I'd hope.
In our contracts, the rules state that if they are going to be late, they must call and let the lead servant know. That would be called an "excused" lateness. If you don't call, or you call and don't have a valid excuse, it's called an "unexcused" lateness, and you won't be allowed in. No one in our ministry takes public transportation or anything like that, so there's no way they could be stuck on a train with no signal and no way to call. If you have a rehearsal at 7:30 p.m. and you aren't a block away at 7:27, then you pretty much know you're going to be late. The responsible thing to do is call.
All of our lead servants are trained to be reasonable, but firm, in exercising judgment, so nobody's gonna tell you to go home because you're late after stopping by the side of the road to help a car accident victim or you had a flat tire.
It's about enforcing responsibility.
No contracts have effect when they aren't enforced. NONE.
I hear you