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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: pastor rob on December 05, 2007, 09:49:11 PM
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Here is Creflo response to the senate inquiry.
This was copied from Yahoo! news.
One of six Christian ministries under investigation by a Senate committee is rebuffing inquiries into its spending, challenging the panel's watchdog role over religious groups, The Associated Press has learned.
A lawyer for preacher Creflo Dollar of World Changers Church International in suburban Atlanta has asked Sen. Charles Grassley to either refer the matter to the IRS or get a subpoena, according to a letter from Dollar's attorney obtained Wednesday by the AP.
Grassley, the ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, sent pointed questionnaires in early November to a half-dozen ministries, asking about salaries, perks, travel and oversight. The Iowa Republican set Thursday as the deadline for a response.
All six organizations preach a form of the "prosperity gospel," the belief that God wants his faithful followers to reap material rewards.
Besides Dollar, several other televangelists have signaled concerns about invasions of privacy and violations of religious freedom. Only Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo., has provided the detailed financial and board oversight information sought by Grassley.
Dollar's refusal could lead to a court fight, giving a judge the authority to decide whether the committee is entitled to all the information it requested.
Grassley emphasized the other five still have time. The senator also reiterated that his probe "has nothing to do with church doctrine" and is strictly concerned with making sure the tax-exempt groups are following the law.
Dollar has been the most vocal in his criticism of the probe. In the Nov. 27 letter obtained by the AP, Dollar attorney Marcus Owens wrote to Grassley and Sen. Max Baucus, the Finance Committee chairman, that the church is willing to comply with a "proper" request for information — but it should be handled by the IRS.
Owens, the former director of the IRS's exempt organizations division, pointed to precedent: In the 1980s, a House subcommittee asked the IRS to review concerns about televangelists.
"A referral would permit Senator Grassley and the Senate Finance Committee to discharge their obligation to oversee federal tax administration without running the risk of government entanglement in the Church's religious beliefs and practices," the letter said.
An IRS review also would ensure privacy, Owens wrote. All IRS reviews are confidential, and Dollar has said he worries that a Senate probe might air sensitive information about salaries, among other things.
Failing a referral to the IRS, Owens requested that the committee seek subpoenas to "provide an appropriate legal context for the review." With a subpoena, the church and its members could gain confidentiality protections.
Joyce Meyer Ministries expressed confidence last week that it would be found in "complete compliance" with financial regulations.
The organization also addressed one of the more salacious details in the letter from Grassley — its reported purchase of a $23,000 "commode with marble top." The ministry said it was not a common toilet but a "a tall elegant chest of drawers," and that the selling agent got the price wrong.
Aside from Dollar and Meyer, the other televangelists have been noncommittal in their public responses. But some have voiced strong objections that echo Dollar's about privacy and religious freedom.
Bishop Eddie Long, who leads a megachurch and ministry in Lithonia, Ga., initially promised to "fully comply" with Grassley's request. But a few days later, Long told his congregation the request was "unjust," "intrusive," and "an attack on our religious freedom and privacy rights."
The others who received letters from Grassley are Randy and Paula White of Without Walls International Church and Paula White Ministries of Tampa, Fla.; Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church Inc. and Benny Hinn Ministries of Grapevine, Texas; and Kenneth and Gloria Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries of Newark, Texas.
Owens said in an e-mail to the AP that while each ministry is "separately responding as it sees fit," lawyers for the ministries have been in touch and share common concerns about Grassley's request.
The letter from Dollar's attorney describes the prosperity gospel as a "deeply held religious belief" grounded in Scripture, and that the six churches are part of the "rich tapestry of religion in America" deserving of protection.
Some legal scholars believe the Senate is a proper forum to review religious nonprofit groups' finances — although with caveats.
Congress has a legitimate interest in making sure nonprofit rules are followed because confidentiality rules make it hard to track IRS enforcement, said Marc Stern, general counsel of the American Jewish Congress, who advises religious groups on church-state issues.
"On the other hand, Congress is a very blunt instrument," he said. "Congressional hearings are hardly models of due process and they can pick on anything they want for any reason they want and that raises real concern. So there's this pull in both directions."
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...now it looks even more shady than before.... :o
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...now it looks even more shady than before.... :o
I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?
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I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?
I agree...
He shouldn't just be railroaded into doing what they want if he can fight it. Sounds like a smart move to me. If they have issues let the IRS deal with it, isn't that what they are paid for?
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I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?
What's Dwb? ?/? I hope it's not what I think you're saying it is. ::)
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What's Dwb? ?/? I hope it's not what I think you're saying it is. ::)
Driving While...
I can't make out the last letter. If it's what I'm referring to, I thought it was a DUI or DWI. Maybe not.
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What's Dwb? ?/? I hope it's not what I think you're saying it is. ::)
Ooooh, finally I get to be the answerer instead of the asker... LOL! :D :D :D
DWB= driving while black! ;)
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either refer the matter to the IRS or get a subpoena...
its reported purchase of a $23,000 "commode with marble top."
You know, that's not right, spending money like that. However, we DO live in a country of laws. They can't do a fishing exhibition. They need to get a subpoena or let it go.
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Wouldn't it make you mad....
You pay $23,000 for a commode with marble top and somebody pees on the seat.
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You know, that's not right, spending money like that. However, we DO live in a country of laws. They can't do a fishing exhibition. They need to get a subpoena or let it go.
It is right if it is her money she spent it own. 23k may not be the same % of dollars to her as it is to you or me.
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What's Dwb? ?/? I hope it's not what I think you're saying it is. ::)
Yeah it does happen my friend.
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I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?
you didnt read the last thread then.
I say fight!
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you didnt read the last thread then.
I say fight!
I was saying fight also if you want also.
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I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?
.....Im not joking at all.....and I guarantee you that the vast majority of the world smells a rat....as I do! People are selling Gods word to feed their greed....and I dont think it should be done....that goes for music too!Yeah...yeah....I know thats the way of the world....but I think we have twisted things a bit and are now in rationalization mode!...THIS WAS SURELY NOT CHRISTS INTENT!
p.s. they have every right to defend themselves.....LETS SEE IF THEY CAN...OR IF THEY HIDE BEHIND ANY LOOPHOLE THAT THEY CAN FIND!....
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I think Joyce was smart. She truly has nothing to hide, so she complied and its done. She will come out better than the other five.
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I think Joyce was smart. She truly has nothing to hide, so she complied and its done. She will come out better than the other five.
Mmm... I don't know about that, Nessa. For me, it's a matter of principle. Sen. Grassley had no legal grounds to demand this information, and the others are calling him on it. If he wants the info, he should go through the proper channels and get a subpoena or have the IRS request it. But, who the heck is he to just be calling out churches at random and demanding they show their financial records and stuff?
Not to mention, that stuff costs money to prepare. If they comply now, they could be opening themselves to these types of on-the-fly investigations every year or so by some eager, over-achieving senator trying to get his name in the paper so he can prepare his run for president in 2012 or 2016.
I'm not sure what I would do if I were one of the six, but I'm leaning toward handling it the same way the 4 did (I think the Whites intend to submit the info, but asked for an extension).
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This is just more money that the church is gonna have to spend. I seriously doubt that any legal fees are going to come out of his pocket. If he has nothing to hide, then just submit your records and get it out of the way.
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This is just more money that the church is gonna have to spend. I seriously doubt that any legal fees are going to come out of his pocket. If he has nothing to hide, then just submit your records and get it out of the way.
Why? Because someone without relevant authority demanded he (they) do so?
I have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let some random police officer come into my home and look through my closet without a search warrant.
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Why? Because someone without relevant authority demanded he (they) do so?
I have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let some random police officer come into my home and look through my closet without a search warrant.
CO-SIGN!!! If he would have refused to submit to the IRS then I would be suspicious.
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I think that in the interest of the church, submitting the documents would be the easiest way. Along with that, they can challenge the process and whether or not it is a fair request. In other words, let the world know that you are on the up and up, AND that you oppose the way the investigation was handled. I think it lends more credibility that way.
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I think that in the interest of the church, submitting the documents would be the easiest way. Along with that, they can challenge the process and whether or not it is a fair request. In other words, let the world know that you are on the up and up, AND that you oppose the way the investigation was handled. I think it lends more credibility that way.
Although I, personally, wouldn't give in to that kind of bullying, you DO raise a very good point, and it probably does lend more credibility that way.
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I think that in the interest of the church, submitting the documents would be the easiest way. Along with that, they can challenge the process and whether or not it is a fair request. In other words, let the world know that you are on the up and up, AND that you oppose the way the investigation was handled. I think it lends more credibility that way.
I definitely agree with you Nessa. Maybe I missed something, but what's the difference between complying now or waiting for a subpeona to comply?
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The difference in complying and waiting for a subpoena - due process. First off, it has not been established by law that a Senator or Congressman has ANY legal right to demand this documentation.
It is like if a police officer came to my home and wanted to search inside, with no warrant. I am a law-abiding citizen, I don't think there would be anything illegal found in my home. I would still refuse (depending on circumstance - if I was told that a neighbor saw someone breaking in to my home while I was out - it would be reasonable to have the police check it out), The law says - no warrant - I do not have to allow the search. Now - the police do have the right to have an officer stay outside so that I cannot dispose of evidence, and they can radio in for a warrant. If a judge or magistrate grants the warrant, legally I must permit the search.
In the position of any of these ministries, I would at the very least refuse the request until my own legal counsel gave advice on the legality of the request. I tend to believe that the IRS has the professionals, the previous experience, and the ability to detect fraud (at least on any fairly large scale), I would also anticipate that the IRS will, in fact, audit at least some of the ministries involved (if for no other reason than to avoid any appearance that they are not doing their job.) If you do not stand up for your rights, they are automatically given up - they may well get stomped on even if you do stand up.
I'm sorry, but being a Senator or Congressman does not automatically give one the experience and in depth knowledge of the US Tax code to audio someone's return - the code is so complex that even two IRS agents often disagree about what parts of it mean.
Of course, every one of these ministries may be absolutely totally in accord with all of the US law - and still not be handling things in the manner that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit approve. But that question is not likely to be answered until the day that every knee bows, and it most certainly is not within the authority of the US Congress.
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I think it's time for the benediction... :D :D :D
JLC, no one could've said it better. I totally agree. And if I might add, the Senator has as much right or authority to demand this information as I do: NONE.
Very well said, JLC, very well said.
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I'd like to comment on somethin dr. dollar said in an interview...i've been following this case since it started...if the information is submitted there is a CHANCE that it could be released to the public...which means partners TRUSTED information given to the church can be a free for all for the public...with a subpoena there will be guidelines as to what they can have AND the info will be kept PRIVATE and won't be shared with the public to a certain extent...which is why he is waiting on a subpoena. I can post his interview on Larry King if you want...just to clarify his position
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I think that in the interest of the church, submitting the documents would be the easiest way. Along with that, they can challenge the process and whether or not it is a fair request. In other words, let the world know that you are on the up and up, AND that you oppose the way the investigation was handled. I think it lends more credibility that way.
If they follow the law which they are doing in our(church) society we are always guilty to proven innocent.
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The problem that I have with most of the responses is that most aren't aware of the damage that the private sector does to working class citizens everyday. Respect for christian leadership is one thing but this issue isn't about someone taking a stand. It's about stalling for time. Nixon burned most of his tapes so we still don't know the full extent of his real dirt. I know how to lie on my taxes like everyone else. If you guys think for one moment these "ministries" aren't trying to stall for time to appear compliant then ignorance is really bliss... This is the US government we are talking about here. Laws to people in high places mean nothing when there is an agenda to accomplish.
Most of us would be suprised at the slime that high ranking officals have gotten away with. This is high time for GOD's true church because this investigation is going to set a precedent for all of the other phonies that will rise up after them. Deception by peace is the M.O. of the spirit of the anti-christ.... Narrow is the way of salvation. Broad is the way of destruction. Corporate greed and corporate fraud are investigated everyday but the money they swindled from the working class is used for their defense. Reformation rarely happens. Most of feeble attempts are done at a snells pace. Can't we not see the same similarities. I have a broken heart for those who still can't see the devil's work in this issue...
Please understand that if there was nothing to hide then compliance would occur immediately. If things were done as it should've been then the rebuttal of follow the law wouldn't drop from Creflo's mouth. Intelligence is not stalling. Stalling is lying.... When the roman soilders came for Jesus he went then. He didn't ask them to come back the next day... Food for thought... By peace does the anti christ destroy.. The wolf is in disguise... OPEN your eyes people of God.... The sinners have!!!! Why can't we?
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After reading all the comments, I think I agree with Nessa the most. I would comply fully and immediately ( the first time).
This would let everyone know that our ministry was on the up and up. At the same time, I would push for the mechanism on how each ministry was targeted for the senate investigation, and if there was no "justifiable cause", I would have my legal counsel push for recovery of my expenses and probably have the senate investigation sued for fraud.
But honestly, I don't have enough legal expertise to determine what a senate investigation committee has the RIGHTS to do. I mean watergate, Iran/Contra, Baseball steroids, those committees had to have had some type of legal backing didn't they?
Jlewis
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Yes Jlewis they do. The government can investigate who ever they want... Especially if you take government funds or use government programs to run your business.... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that.... Al Sharpton is being investigated to on some of the same issues.. You get in bed with the government you'll pay... You betta ask somebody who knows....
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After reading all the comments, I think I agree with Nessa the most. I would comply fully and immediately ( the first time).
This would let everyone know that our ministry was on the up and up. At the same time, I would push for the mechanism on how each ministry was targeted for the senate investigation, and if there was no "justifiable cause", I would have my legal counsel push for recovery of my expenses and probably have the senate investigation sued for fraud.
But honestly, I don't have enough legal expertise to determine what a senate investigation committee has the RIGHTS to do. I mean watergate, Iran/Contra, Baseball steroids, those committees had to have had some type of legal backing didn't they?
Jlewis
When we comply to something that maybe illegal, we can set a dangerous pattern that can or will eventually trickle down not to just the so-called mega ministries but also to the storefront, which by the response of some are the only ones preaching holiness ::)
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The biggest problem is that the Senator is member (maybe chair) of the Finance Committee. HOWEVER, the Finance Committee is NOT asking the churches for their records. The Senator is doing it on his own and not as part of the investigative function of the Committee.
That's a good reason for Pastor Dollar and the others not to comply with the Senator's informal request.