LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: Fenix on December 22, 2007, 07:29:56 AM
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OK i am starting to have a little beef with some of these gospel pianists. I saw this chord and its supposed to be Db13
B-Eb-Gb-Bb. I realize this is an inversion with the b7 as the lowest note but wouldnt a Db15 look like this, still using the b7 as a bass: B-Db-F-Bb?? Why call it a Db13 if you have the 9 and the 11 there? Is this how to play a 13th chord, by adding the 9th and 11th notes?
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OK i am starting to have a little beef with some of these gospel pianists. I saw this chord and its supposed to be Db13
B-Eb-Gb-Bb. I realize this is an inversion with the b7 as the lowest note but wouldnt a Db15 look like this, still using the b7 as a bass: B-Db-F-Bb?? Why call it a Db13 if you have the 9 and the 11 there? Is this how to play a 13th chord, by adding the 9th and 11th notes?
Was this the FULL chord?
If the bass note is Db, it would be a Db13 chord, although the proper way to spell it would be "Cb-Eb-Gb-Bb". It doesn't matter if you have to 9th and 11th in there.
A FULL Db13 chord would be spelled: Db-F-Ab-Cb-Eb-Gb-Bb
The 5th, 9th, and 11th are optional notes.
Hope this helps.
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OK i am starting to have a little beef with some of these gospel pianists. I saw this chord and its supposed to be Db13
B-Eb-Gb-Bb. I realize this is an inversion with the b7 as the lowest note but wouldnt a Db15 look like this, still using the b7 as a bass: B-Db-F-Bb?? Why call it a Db13 if you have the 9 and the 11 there? Is this how to play a 13th chord, by adding the 9th and 11th notes?
Like our bro B3W said, if the bass note played is a Db, then it is a Db13 chord. It's been my experience that sometimes when people spell out a chord, for one reason or another, they leave out the bass note. It can throw you off if you're not careful.
Anyway, this is how I might play my "Db13" chord at times: Db Ab / B Eb Gb Bb ( 1-5 / 7-9-11-13) God bless :)
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OK now this all makes perfect sense. Thank you so much guys. I was a bit thrown off by he spelling, i'm still trying to get used to seeing inversions without the root note being added.
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May I ask why it is not correct to say it is a B but instead, a Cb?
from my ltd understanding, each scale should have all the letters from A to G..
so, extrapolating from that, if I am using this in the key of F#, then it would be correct to say it's Cb..
But I don't understand why it is wrong to say it is a B...whether in the key of Db, B or any other key..
plz clarify.
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(http://www.learngospelmusic.com/piano/image.php?path=scales/db/major.gif)
Take a look at the scale. While technically it is a B, you have to call it a Cb.
Take a look that htis, it may help you understand.
http://www.learngospelmusic.com/ebooks/scale_degrees.pdf
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May I ask why it is not correct to say it is a B but instead, a Cb?
from my ltd understanding, each scale should have all the letters from A to G..
so, extrapolating from that, if I am using this in the key of F#, then it would be correct to say it's Cb..
But I don't understand why it is wrong to say it is a B...whether in the key of Db, B or any other key..
plz clarify.
You answered your own question. ;)
If you're in the key of F#, you'll have a B. If you in the key of Gb, you'll have a Cb. You can't have a Bb and a B. It'll be Bb and Cb.
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May I ask why it is not correct to say it is a B but instead, a Cb?
from my ltd understanding, each scale should have all the letters from A to G..
so, extrapolating from that, if I am using this in the key of F#, then it would be correct to say it's Cb..
But I don't understand why it is wrong to say it is a B...whether in the key of Db, B or any other key..
plz clarify.
Good question. The simplest answer is, it lies in the KEY SIGNATURE.
Its not that its wrong to say B instead of Cb, its just that you should call the note what it is in the context of the key signature you are in.
In fact, in F#, its not correct to call it a Cb cuz there are no flats in F#. The key signature of F# calls for 6 sharps and no flats. This is because you are raising EVERY NOTE a half step from the original F, not lowering it. Thus no flats and you should not technically call B a Cb when you are in any key signature that is based on a sharp.
The case is different when you have a key signature based on a flat. For example, Gb which is enharmonic (has the same notes) as F#. Even though they have the same notes, Gb is built off of flatting every note in the G major scale. Thus B would be called a Cb when you are in Gb scale cuz you had to "flatten" the C.
In summary, a note's name will change depending on the key signature and what you are building your scale from. I hope this kind of helps.
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Hey Guys, thanx 4 the overwhelming responses.. 8)
That kind of clarified my cloud..so my question should realy have been:
what's the difference between a scale of F# which would have been built from the F scale (correct?) and the Gb scale, which would have been built from the G scale..
could it be that for the F#, we are ascending up the keyboard/piano ,& 4 the Gb, we are descending?
Right now, that is my guess/ how I help myself to understand it.
since U guys are so fast to respond, don't frown if I don't reply / thank U immediately..just that it's long past midnite here & I need 2 get some rest.
Thanx.
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so my question should realy have been:
what's the difference between a scale of F# which would have been built from the F scale (correct?) and the Gb scale, which would have been built from the G scale..
could it be that for the F#, we are ascending up the keyboard/piano ,& 4 the Gb, we are descending?
Right now, that is my guess/ how I help myself to understand it.
Try understanding it this way man. When you start on a particular note, whether you name it with #'s or b's, you can only use each proceeding letter once. That is how I would start off learning each scale. Example:
F#
Go ahead and list all the letters from F to F:
F
G
A
B
C
D
E
F
Next, put in your starting and ending notes:
F#
G
A
B
C
D
E
F#
Then, use the major scale formula (W W H W W W H) to fill in the rest of the notes. If you do it this way, you don't have a choice in what to call the notes cuz the scale formula will dictate that for you:
F#
whole step
G#
whole step
A#
half-step
B
whole step
C#
whole step
D#
whole step
E#
half-step
F#
I'll do Gb so that you can see that scale as well.
Gb
List all the notes from G to G:
G
A
B
C
D
E
F
G
Put in your starting and ending notes:
Gb
A
B
C
D
E
F
Gb
Use the major scale formula to fill in the rest of the notes:
Gb
whole step
Ab
whole step
Bb
half-step
Cb
whole step
Db
whole step
Eb
whole step
F
half-step
Gb
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Hey T-Block, thanx 4 that explanation...
I think you should put that response on the sticky...
I think I already undestood that though..
I think what I want to know is why have flats & sharps..is there a good reason 4 this?
Sorry I have to make U all dig into your music history books..just interested to know.
I remember last year when I was reading my sister's Alfred's book. It said that "flats are when you move down the piano & sharps are when you move up" {or something like that}..
Is this really the sole reason 4 the flats & sharps..2 know where to go around the piano?
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I think what I want to know is why have flats & sharps..is there a good reason 4 this?
Sorry I have to make U all dig into your music history books..just interested to know.
I remember last year when I was reading my sister's Alfred's book. It said that "flats are when you move down the piano & sharps are when you move up" {or something like that}..
Is this really the sole reason 4 the flats & sharps..2 know where to go around the piano?
Music history (or any history) was never/is not my strong point in school, LOL, but all I can tell you is the first civilization that wrote down their music way back used sharps and flats for various reasons. So, we just took it and ran with it, LOL.
The black keys (& some white keys) are named with sharps going up the keyboard and named with flats coming down the keyboard. That doesn't mean that you have go up the keyboard to use sharps or go down the keyboard to use flats. Just know that each of those notes has at least 2 possible names and the one you use depends on what key you in, what scale you're playing, and/or what the chord formula is. Does that answer you question?
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I'm satisfied T-Block, thanx..
I've never really bothered whether I'm going up / down..i just play what sounds right :)
I think that was well answered..
will catch U guys l8a.
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not to step on any1's toes but...
that chord is actually a Db13+sus11... a Db13 by definition is a dominant chord, so the F# would have to have resolved to F... heance sus11
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Hey Realityl Check, welcome to the RLGM.
I dn't know what my seniors here have to say about you stepping on their toes..
All I gotta say is: sharpen your WMR (Weapons of Mass Revolution) coz they'll come hard on U :D :D :o :D
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not to step on any1's toes but...
that chord is actually a Db13+sus11... a Db13 by definition is a dominant chord, so the F# would have to have resolved to F... heance sus11
You know what, I actually agree with this. It doesn't sound like a true dominant 13th chord, it does sound like something is being suspended. Thanks for clearing this up wit us man.
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You know what, I actually agree with this. It doesn't sound like a true dominant 13th chord, it does sound like something is being suspended. Thanks for clearing this up wit us man.
hahahaha :D
some1 actually agreed with U :o
Normally there'll be a HUGE battle before every1 shakes hands..
I need to do more ear training to recognize all these chords.
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Battle?
It's just a chord. LOL
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Battle?
Sure.. U guys battle it out & i just observe by the sidelines until it cools down :D :D
some1 would be saying it's a Db7 #11/13 & some1 saying no it's a Db 13 sus11 add9 minus12 :D ;) bcos of this & that..
But i enjoy it bcos U all give reasons 4 your answers 8)
It's just a chord. LOL
YEP!
That's why I don't get too involved in the battle..so long as I can apply the chord in my playing.
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Battle?
It's just a chord. LOL
CO-SIGN!
some1 would be saying it's a Db7 #11/13 & some1 saying no it's a Db 13 sus11 add9 minus12 :D ;) bcos of this & that..
But i enjoy it bcos U all give reasons 4 your answers 8)
Some people are more anal about it than others. As long as you have a convincing argument, I'm cool with "battling", LOL.
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Hey Realityl Check, welcome to the RLGM.
I dn't know what my seniors here have to say about you stepping on their toes..
All I gotta say is: sharpen your WMR (Weapons of Mass Revolution) coz they'll come hard on U :D :D :o :D
LOL thanks! i'm not tryin to start ne arguments, just wanted to shed some light on one of the few things i know anything about lol
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Some people are more anal about it than others. As long as you have a convincing argument, I'm cool with "battling", LOL.
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fo sho 8)
helps us beginners to develop our analytical skills 8) :)
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LOL thanks! i'm not tryin to start ne arguments, just wanted to shed some light on one of the few things i know anything about lol
i know brada..U'r adding more value to the Republic.
a Reality Check is always welcome :)
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If you're not including the 3rd, then I'd call this a Db13sus. The sus indicates to leave out the third and use the 11th (or 4th). So all the notes included would be: Db, Ab, B, Eb, Gb, Bb. Thus eliminating the clash between the 3rd and the 11th (or 4th).
If you are including the 3rd (which you didn't in your spelling), then I would call this a Db13 by the "rule" that all notes below the highest extension named may be played. So all the notes that can be used to construct a Db13 are: Db, F, Ab, B, Eb, Gb, Bb. Considering that this includes every note in the scale, it's quite rare that a "true" Db13 chord is every played because it is so challenging to make all of these notes sound good together.
After a long debate (which musallio alluded to), I came up with two "rules" to define my use of chord symbols:
1) An extension outside of parenthesis indicates that any chord tone below it may be used unless the word "sus" appears, in which case the 3rd is replaced with the 11th.
2) Tones inside parenthesis are to be added to the existing chord that is outside the parenthesis.
Here are some examples:
C9(13) - C, E, G, Bb, D, A
C7(11) - C, E, G, Bb, F
C7(#5,13) - C, E, G#, Bb, A
C9sus - C, G, Bb, D, F
My goal with these "rules" is two-fold - To eliminate any confusion and to use as few symbols as possible. What I used to call C13, I now call C7(13) or C9(13), because the first reason is always the most important - Eliminate confusion.
And, of course, I'm sure that over time I will refine my "rules" even more. :P
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Thanx 4 clarifying yourself Darkwing.
I get U loud and clear. 8)
It's a neat way of presenting chords.
However, what still baffles me is why can musicians not agree on a certain thing:
The 1st time I learn about 7th, 9th, 11ths, 13ths etc, I read that one only needs the Root, the 7th & any of the note you need to form (ie, 9th or 11th or 13th or 16th).
The author explained that there is no need for the 5th.
(I won't go into the 3rd because I've forgotten what he said about those [i was still very lost :D]).
I know U & T-Block have had a big debate in the "Cool Chords" section about this issue.
Do U mind stating your case again :P
(Sorry 4 that, that's me going Blep :P ::))
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Thanx 4 clarifying yourself Darkwing.
I get U loud and clear. 8)
It's a neat way of presenting chords.
However, what still baffles me is why can musicians not agree on a certain thing:
The 1st time I learn about 7th, 9th, 11ths, 13ths etc, I read that one only needs the Root, the 7th & any of the note you need to form (ie, 9th or 11th or 13th or 16th).
The author explained that there is no need for the 5th.
(I won't go into the 3rd because I've forgotten what he said about those [i was still very lost :D]).
I know U & T-Block have had a big debate in the "Cool Chords" section about this issue.
Do U mind stating your case again :P
(Sorry 4 that, that's me going Blep :P ::))
I would try to explain it, but I don't think I could explain my method effectively using this forum. It would probably sound complicated.
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I would try to explain it, but I don't think I could explain my method effectively using this forum. It would probably sound complicated.
Try..U'll never know what might come of it ;)
This is also a platform 4 U 2 fine-tune your presentation skills ;)
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If you're not including the 3rd, then I'd call this a Db13sus. The sus indicates to leave out the third and use the 11th (or 4th). So all the notes included would be: Db, Ab, B, Eb, Gb, Bb. Thus eliminating the clash between the 3rd and the 11th (or 4th).
If you are including the 3rd (which you didn't in your spelling), then I would call this a Db13 by the "rule" that all notes below the highest extension named may be played. So all the notes that can be used to construct a Db13 are: Db, F, Ab, B, Eb, Gb, Bb. Considering that this includes every note in the scale, it's quite rare that a "true" Db13 chord is every played because it is so challenging to make all of these notes sound good together.
After a long debate (which musallio alluded to), I came up with two "rules" to define my use of chord symbols:
1) An extension outside of parenthesis indicates that any chord tone below it may be used unless the word "sus" appears, in which case the 3rd is replaced with the 11th.
2) Tones inside parenthesis are to be added to the existing chord that is outside the parenthesis.
Here are some examples:
C9(13) - C, E, G, Bb, D, A
C7(11) - C, E, G, Bb, F
C7(#5,13) - C, E, G#, Bb, A
C9sus - C, G, Bb, D, F
My goal with these "rules" is two-fold - To eliminate any confusion and to use as few symbols as possible. What I used to call C13, I now call C7(13) or C9(13), because the first reason is always the most important - Eliminate confusion.
And, of course, I'm sure that over time I will refine my "rules" even more. :P
I can appreciate your "rules"; I just have one question: Must I play the 3rd in my LH?
I hate playing the 3rd (in my LH), unless I'm trying to use a tri-tone. I usually play the root and the 5th (it's just easier for me).
Now, I don't mind playing the 3rd (and it's extensions) in my RH.
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However, what still baffles me is why can musicians not agree on a certain thing:
Musicians can't agree on certain things the same way people interpret the Bible in different ways. Learning can be the same for everyone, but application can vary between individuals. Music theory isn't an exact science, it is merely what works more often than not. Just like the word theory, it is something that has been proven to work over and over again and can be applied to similar situations.
The 1st time I learn about 7th, 9th, 11ths, 13ths etc, I read that one only needs the Root, the 7th & any of the note you need to form (ie, 9th or 11th or 13th or 16th).
The author explained that there is no need for the 5th.
(I won't go into the 3rd because I've forgotten what he said about those [i was still very lost :D]).
Actually u need the root, 3rd, 7th, and anyone of those notes. The 3rd is what gives the chord it's quality, major or minor. So w/out it, you really don't have much of a chord.
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Thanx 4 clarifying yourself Darkwing.
I get U loud and clear. 8)
It's a neat way of presenting chords.
However, what still baffles me is why can musicians not agree on a certain thing:
The 1st time I learn about 7th, 9th, 11ths, 13ths etc, I read that one only needs the Root, the 7th & any of the note you need to form (ie, 9th or 11th or 13th or 16th).
The author explained that there is no need for the 5th.
(I won't go into the 3rd because I've forgotten what he said about those [i was still very lost :D]).
I know U & T-Block have had a big debate in the "Cool Chords" section about this issue.
Do U mind stating your case again :P
(Sorry 4 that, that's me going Blep :P ::))
Since the 3rd determines the most important quality of the chord (Major or minor) it is important that it is in the chord. Unless you want to be ambiguous. In the case of dominant chords, it is especially important because when combined with the 7th it creates an interval called a tritone that is very important to the sound of the chord. So the 7th is also important. On any dominant chord, altered or not, you are always safe just playing the root, 3rd and 7th. In face, you can get away with just the 3rd and 7th, although it is ambiguous unless you have a bass player. But ambiguity is fine, it creates tension.
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Ok 8)
Thank U very much Darkwing & T-Block.
Good thing I had forgotten what that author said about the 3rd.
Now U've opened my eyes 2 more stuff 8)
(BTW, i like the way U explained the meaning of theory T-Block :))
I am also so glad that U both agreed on the same thing (this time Darkwing did not stress the importance of the 5th in forming those big name chords).
[Darkwing: Thanx 4 re-inforcing what Wolfram said about dominant chords etc.]
My Conclusion:
given the information I have,
in order to form a 9th, 11th or 13th,
I only need :the ROOT, 3rd, 7th & "that other note".
Thanx guys..
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Ok 8)
Thank U very much Darkwing & T-Block.
Good thing I had forgotten what that author said about the 3rd.
Now U've opened my eyes 2 more stuff 8)
(BTW, i like the way U explained the meaning of theory T-Block :))
I am also so glad that U both agreed on the same thing (this time Darkwing did not stress the importance of the 5th in forming those big name chords).
[Darkwing: Thanx 4 re-inforcing what Wolfram said about dominant chords etc.]
My Conclusion:
given the information I have,
in order to form a 9th, 11th or 13th,
I only need :the ROOT, 3rd, 7th & "that other note".
Thanx guys..
Exactly.