LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: dcdabassman on January 13, 2008, 01:00:08 PM
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who likes to play pocket and why
personally I adore playing pocket because the vocal are better when the musicians playing pocket and the music is SO TIghtt
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I am a pocket player primarily because that's the way I was taught. Also, we are a very traditional Gospel church who plays lots and lots of hymns.
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Old School Pocket player here! I can appreciate what the younger crowd likes to display but for me it totally distracts from the message I'm trying to listen and it further distracts me because I'm a bass player and I always listen to what the bass player is doing. I'd much rather enjoy the song as a whole.
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Old School Pocket player here! I can appreciate what the younger crowd likes to display but for me it totally distracts from the message I'm trying to listen and it further distracts me because I'm a bass player and I always listen to what the bass player is doing. I'd much rather enjoy the song as a whole.
Cosign. I like bass players who add something to the song without taking the song over. And in gospel lyrics are so important we shouldn't try to stand out about them. Just my humble opinion.
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When I saw the title of this thread, I thought "oh my God, I can't believe someone would ask this." But I understand the reason for the question. In today's musical world, there's a ton of bass players who don't play in the pocket. For me, I prefer pocket playing, but I do step out when it is necessary. The hardest thing to do is playing in the pocket.
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Could you explain what is "POCKETING"/ "pocket playing"? ?/?
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Could you explain what is "POCKETING"/ "pocket playing"? ?/?
Pocket playing is simply locking in with the drummer providing a solid groove without overplaying which quite a lot of the current crop of gospel bassists do. There seems to be a current trend with Gospel musicians (mostly drummers & bassists) who tend to overplay a bit and who like to show off their chops. Like I stated above, for me, it is distracting and takes away the focus of the song, which is the message. Now this is just my 'old school' opinion. I can take it in small doses. I tend to listen to the older artists for this reason.
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I try to stay in the pocket.But being an old school thumb player, not a slap and popper. Kinda hard to step out of pocket much.
I've switched to my fingers in the last two months, can play more faster now.
I'm sure my playing have gone out of pocket with the new found speed and dex.
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8)I think a pocket player weather bass or drums is a disciplined musician, in that they have learned what makes the music Groove. A pocket player can also hear when and when not to stick a lick in the mix. Most of your CD's in any Genre are all in the pocket. This is done purposely when a producer music coordinator puts a song together. It's pretty much standard in the Industry, and they won't have it any other way. So it's best to accomplish this early in the game. It will prevent a lot of problems. :)
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Love the pocket, old school at its best. I think when the drummer and bass are locked in it allows the other musicians to do their thing which is great but I love doing a little lick or something during that groove because then the audience wants more. All of a sudden they hear a run or lick or pop or something out of nowhere and then their attention focuses on the rythm section. Plus when people think of a song and hum it they usually are humming the bassline anyway.
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providing a solid groove without overplaying ...
There seems to be a current trend with Gospel musicians (mostly drummers & bassists) who tend to overplay a bit and who like to show off their chops
... a disciplined musician, in that they have learned what makes the music Groove. A pocket player can also hear when and when not to stick a lick in the mix
i think some organists should understand the concept of pocket playing too then, as u guys explained it, because some of them be overplaying as well, as if they were playing an instrumental solo with a huge bright spotlight shining on them in front of a packed stadium. LOL.
I love the pocket. i can stay there all day. i heard/read somewhere that as a bass player your drummer is supposed to be like ur best friend. that way ya'll know each other. you can pick up what he's doing and he can pick up what you're doing. a lot of times when somethings going on during service where the music is playing but not a particular song, i usually just listen to what he's playing and lock on to that, and we get a groove going that just cant be denied.
however there are times that i force myself to play out of the pocket so i can work on my musical phrasing, because there's not many things as frustrating is when you hear the perfect spot to play something and you dont know what to play or cant because you havent conditioned yourself to do so.
the great bass players can groove in the pocket and play something that'll blow your mind and still be in the pocket. and after you rewind that part like 10 times and learn what was done, its so simple yet tasteful and meaningful.
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I think that's the difference in old school players and new school players. The older, more seasoned players know how to resist the urge to throw in that 'lick' some of you mention. Admittedly though, I will switch around the way I phrase runs and I may add an accent, here and there, when needed. But for the most part, I try to keep it straight. A little 'lick' here and there probably won't distract any and doesn't bother me much.
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I think that's the difference in old school players and new school players. The older, more seasoned players know how to resist the urge to throw in that 'lick' some of you mention. Admittedly though, I will switch around the way I phrase runs and I may add an accent, here and there, when needed. But for the most part, I try to keep it straight. A little 'lick' here and there probably won't distract any and doesn't bother me much.
My Kinda Player :)
Blessed to Kneel
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i think some organists should understand the concept of pocket playing too then, as u guys explained it, because some of them be overplaying as well, as if they were playing an instrumental solo with a huge bright spotlight shining on them in front of a packed stadium. LOL.
I love the pocket. i can stay there all day. i heard/read somewhere that as a bass player your drummer is supposed to be like ur best friend. that way ya'll know each other. you can pick up what he's doing and he can pick up what you're doing. a lot of times when somethings going on during service where the music is playing but not a particular song, i usually just listen to what he's playing and lock on to that, and we get a groove going that just cant be denied.
however there are times that i force myself to play out of the pocket so i can work on my musical phrasing, because there's not many things as frustrating is when you hear the perfect spot to play something and you dont know what to play or cant because you havent conditioned yourself to do so.
the great bass players can groove in the pocket and play something that'll blow your mind and still be in the pocket. and after you rewind that part like 10 times and learn what was done, its so simple yet tasteful and meaningful.
Oh so true!
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i love the pocket, that's is what's going to get a bass player hired...
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I think I was born a pocket player lol. I admit, I think I sound pretty horrible by myself, but put me with a drummer or a group, and Im CRUSHIN it! When I play, I think "Lint ball". Thats how deep in the pocket I like to be. But Im also an ole school type player. The more I listen to old tunes, the more I feel like I shoulda been born like ten yrs early LOLOL. Thats just how my style is, greasy and simple.
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Thanks for the replies, but could someone give me a song where there is a lot of pocket playing?
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I think I was born a pocket player lol. I admit, I think I sound pretty horrible by myself, but put me with a drummer or a group, and Im CRUSHIN it! When I play, I think "Lint ball". Thats how deep in the pocket I like to be. But Im also an ole school type player. The more I listen to old tunes, the more I feel like I shoulda been born like ten yrs early LOLOL. Thats just how my style is, greasy and simple.
i feel the same way when someone ask me to play something by myself, i get a little clueless and go blank and play something just whatever, but with a band or even just a drummer, i can create a lot of different things.
i need to start a thread bout this :)
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Thanks for the replies, but could someone give me a song where there is a lot of pocket playing?
To me, MO is an excellent pocket player. He's definately busy but SO controlled that he don't sound busy at all until you try to play "any" of his work.
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For real man, I love when a whole band is on pocket it,
an y'all can all feel the music an err bodies head just bouncing (lol) enjoying the atmosphere.. :D
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Here's a good example of pocket playing (with a bit of embelishment).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_KuD0AjWdE
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This is more in line of what I like to listen to and play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3V-WKw_SU
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This is my type of pocket playing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8P72S8E230
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This has been one of mah favourite bass vids ;D
Here's a good example of pocket playing (with a bit of embelishment).
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_KuD0AjWdE[/url]
Oh I kinda understand a little better now, and by the way how do you "Keep in within the pocket"?
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To me, MO is an excellent pocket player. He's definately busy but SO controlled that he don't sound busy at all until you try to play "any" of his work.
Who is that? ?/?"MO"
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Here's a good example of pocket playing (with a bit of embelishment).
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_KuD0AjWdE[/url]
I can't believe you broght Sharay out the bag and posted him. This is straight pocket playing. Another example of pocket playing is looking up the late great James Brown. His band always played in the pocket.
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Who is that? ?/?"MO"
"Mo is Maurice Fitzgerald. Here's a clip of him from the same concert as Sharay Reed. I know if may seem that he is doing a lot more in this clip. But check out some of his stuff with Fred Hammond.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nqbkXmyOYk&feature=related
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"Mo is Maurice Fitzgerald. Here's a clip of him from the same concert as Sharay Reed. I know if may seem that he is doing a lot more in this clip. But check out some of his stuff with Fred Hammond.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nqbkXmyOYk&feature=related[/url]
Whew! I'm worn out from watching that. I couldn't take a whole evening of that though! An old band of mine came down from NY to Virginia Beach to play and the bass player that replaced me is one of those 'gotta slap everything' type of players. By the end of the show I was totally worn out from hearing this guy!! I can appreciate the skill to sustain that over a couple of hours though.
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Thanks for the replies, but could someone give me a song where there is a lot of pocket playing?
Hear is an example of organized playing, meaning the arrangement is planned.
This song positions in and out of pocket playing
Marcus Miller Run for Cover Pooky Bell on Drums.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHf7DvVpeiU
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?/? I've been playing in The Church over a year now, prior to that I was in the Jazz seen. playing by ear most of the time, taking theory now. Could some one post some titles of some CD's with some nice bass work in them. I don't have a very good collection fo gospel music. Only what the MOM gives me at Church.
Thank you anyone.
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Old School Pocket player here! I can appreciate what the younger crowd likes to display but for me it totally distracts from the message I'm trying to listen and it further distracts me because I'm a bass player and I always listen to what the bass player is doing. I'd much rather enjoy the song as a whole.
Exactly, not to mention that you're likely to get more gigs if you're discipline to play like this.....TRUST ME !
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Here's a good example of pocket playing (with a bit of embelishment).
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_KuD0AjWdE[/url]
Here's the entire song at a different camera angle. His pocket is DEEP man, he really grooves within it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILa-XvSbwCY
Pocket playing is the way to go, no question.
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All these different angles, now all we need is that concert in HD...
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All these different angles, now all we need is that concert in HD...
LOL, right!
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It means the most to me when a bass player that has a lot a chops can demonstrate his maturity and play the groove and make it it as funky as possible on an upbeat tune and as big and powerful as it should be on ballads.
(sigh)I personally think the whole "in the pocket" statement is soooooo overrated. Mostly said by people who 1. haven't the faintest idea of what a pocket really is or 2. have no choice but to play the same thing repetitiously for their lack of chops. No knock on those who apply but as a producer I would want and HIRE a bass player that can do both. One that can groove me to death but can tear the house down as well when the time comes but thats me, my opinion, my preference. For the record, a pocket does not necessarily mean not showing chops or keeping it steady as much as it means staying relatively in the same wave with the rest of the band. So if my band is capable of doing Chick Corea (authentically) then wouldn't you want a bass player to be able go there as well?? I mean in Indiana, we do all of that...I have heard from way busy-busy-nice-grooving-robotic-boring-please go. Notice how grooving falls in the middle...that's the pocket IMO.
Most of the guys on most threads say "his groove is so tight" or similar statements. I'm like"huh???" ?/? Is it or is it not our job as bassists to "hold the groove"? That's like saying "I went to the store and paid for everything I walked out with". Not to mention a lot of the "chops" you hear from some well known bassists on CD's that you think are soooo crazy are in fact the extent of their chop-o-meter anyway. I was at a concert and the bass player was kinda grooving with a few predictable licks here and there...I was appreciating the overall approach then the Director said, "Come on, ****, let me here some!" It was a musical (midnight) and we were having a great time anyway...it was the last song too...oh and service had dismissed so I guess it was a shed(ish)...Anyway he played perhaps the worst display of chops I have ever had heard and the people were like
:-\ :-X :-\ >:( :( ?/? :P :-X :-\ :'(
Furthermore, holding a pocket has little to do with getting "work". Maturity, attitude, placement, professionalism, experience, and sometimes sheer NAME RECOGNITION do. It is because of all of these most of us continue to work and record albums-do gigs or what have you. I know a slew bass players with nice "pockets" who never play anywhere...unfortunately.
My point is simple. Give me a bass player in my studio that can't hold a groove but got all chops and I'll show him the door. Give me a bass player that can groove but has no "creativity" and I'll call him for some things, but give me a Sharay, or Darrell, or Lil Rodney that can do them both very well...........I am not saying I am all that because I am surely not. I am just stating my opinion or perhaps trying to show another point of view. Less is more but there is a time and place for everything. Now let the flaming begin.. ;D
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I agree with Brown! That's what I'm working on now, holding a groove and having chops. I basically have the groove them, it's just chops im working on very very hard now. Like 2-3hrs everynight of basically just taking scales and coming up with licks. I record them all too so i kind of got my own "lick" library. And I try to learn every lick that i hear that i like rather it's bass, lead, paino, organ, ..... etc.
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Hmmmm. I have done a ton of studio work starting in the late 70's. Chops are wanted, yes. But, in my experience, a bassist who plays for himself, independent of the rhythm section, will get shown the door with the quickness. I guess it depends on the type of music the producer is working on. The majority of the music I played on required simple laid back steady playing (all genres). I would not call it boring but it does take discipline to NOT embellish at times. IMO, urban gospel music seems to be the only genre where the bassists get to 'go off' more than usual. I just find it a bit self serving. Admittedly, some of it does sound good.
*Side note: I owned and ran my own project studio for about 10 years when I lived in NY.
It's good that we all have different opinions. It just shows and proves that we all come from different places and have our own unique experiences.
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It's all in what you want. I play pocket and riffs. when there is a opening I'll put riff.
It all depends if it fits with the moment. The past 3 or 4 years I have studied Theory and melody over chords. My brother is a Jazz Guitar player and he showed me how to combine partial scales and modes. I use the 2, 4 & 5 mode the most.
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so what do us "chop"-less players do in the meantime? i do be wondering if the occasional bass player that hears me thinks in his head "this dude is wack". i know im far from tearin the house down and i know people wouldnt be crowded in the corner around me like in those videos. everybody wants the people lookin over sayin "where did they get this guy. i gotta hear more" but just startin out im probably closer to "where did they get this guy. get him outta here" LOL. i definitely cant stop playing and wait until i get chops.
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*WARNING* Novice Bass Player on Board. Maybe it's just my age (43) or my lack of experience (only 3 years) but I gravitate toward simple, melodic playing that compliments rather than riffs, runs, and solos that stand out. At the end of the day I want to feel as though what I played fit the context and the spirit of the song, and frankly I want to call as little atttention to myself as possible. Put it in basketball terms: I'd rather be Tim Duncan than Kobe Bryant.
I appreciate Brown's point of view. DW's as well. But most of us aren't going to get called to do session work. We're going to go every Sunday to (insert name of church here) and play to more or less the same audience every Sunday. If what I play is pleasing in God's sight, if my church family likes it, if I look over at my keyboardist and she gives me a thumbs up, then I've done what I came to do.
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so what do us "chop"-less players do in the meantime? i do be wondering if the occasional bass player that hears me thinks in his head "this dude is wack". i know im far from tearin the house down and i know people wouldnt be crowded in the corner around me like in those videos. everybody wants the people lookin over sayin "where did they get this guy. i gotta hear more" but just starting out I'm probably closer to "where did they get this guy. get him outta here" LOL. i definitely cant stop playing and wait until i get chops.
My goal as a bassist when it comes to playing songs is not incorporate my own chops but to try to get my playing as close to the cd as possible. Now if there is a nice lil chop on the cd...i'll (try to)learn it. I come to realize that a lot of churches don't have a bassist. When they see one playing and he sounds like the cd; they flock to the bass player. I was playing over in Korea one night, I didn't do anything special on bass for any of the songs except play the songs like the cd. After the service, the organist from another church came up to me and told me I killed the bass. He wanted me to come out and help his service out. I said that to say this, we as bass players may not realize or think we are jamming but there is someone always watching us and smiling at what we do or what lil we do.
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I co-sign. my experience exactly.
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*WARNING* Novice Bass Player on Board. Maybe it's just my age (43) or my lack of experience (only 3 years) but I gravitate toward simple, melodic playing that compliments rather than riffs, runs, and solos that stand out. At the end of the day I want to feel as though what I played fit the context and the spirit of the song, and frankly I want to call as little atttention to myself as possible. Put it in basketball terms: I'd rather be Tim Duncan than Kobe Bryant.
I agree with you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with simple melodic playing. To each it's own. Kobe would not even mesh with the Spurs and I'm sure Tim wouldn't gel as much with the Lakers. Two totally different teams with two totally different gameplans and/or approaches...yet both are succeeding.
I appreciate Brown's point of view. DW's as well. But most of us aren't going to get called to do session work. We're going to go every Sunday to (insert name of church here) and play to more or less the same audience every Sunday. If what I play is pleasing in God's sight, if my church family likes it, if I look over at my keyboardist and she gives me a thumbs up, then I've done what I came to do.
No argument here.
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My goal as a bassist when it comes to playing songs is not incorporate my own chops but to try to get my playing as close to the cd as possible. Now if there is a nice lil chop on the cd...i'll (try to)learn it. I come to realize that a lot of churches don't have a bassist. When they see one playing and he sounds like the cd; they flock to the bass player. I was playing over in Korea one night, I didn't do anything special on bass for any of the songs except play the songs like the cd. After the service, the organist from another church came up to me and told me I killed the bass. He wanted me to come out and help his service out. I said that to say this, we as bass players may not realize or think we are jamming but there is someone always watching us and smiling at what we do or what lil we do.
Hmmmm :-\ Didn't work out so well for me....
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@Browntiplocs..........I checked out your track, "Life Is Tough", and that is totally 'in the pocket' playing!!
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@Browntiplocs..........I checked out your track, "Life Is Tough", and that is totally 'in the pocket' playing!!
Sorry............Life Is Tuff...........
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*WARNING* Novice Bass Player on Board. Maybe it's just my age (43) or my lack of experience (only 3 years) but I gravitate toward simple, melodic playing that compliments rather than riffs, runs, and solos that stand out. At the end of the day I want to feel as though what I played fit the context and the spirit of the song, and frankly I want to call as little atttention to myself as possible. Put it in basketball terms: I'd rather be Tim Duncan than Kobe Bryant.
I appreciate Brown's point of view. DW's as well. But most of us aren't going to get called to do session work. We're going to go every Sunday to (insert name of church here) and play to more or less the same audience every Sunday. If what I play is pleasing in God's sight, if my church family likes it, if I look over at my keyboardist and she gives me a thumbs up, then I've done what I came to do.
AMEN!!!
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Hmmmm. I have done a ton of studio work starting in the late 70's. Chops are wanted, yes. But, in my experience, a bassist who plays for himself, independent of the rhythm section, will get shown the door with the quickness. I guess it depends on the type of music the producer is working on. The majority of the music I played on required simple laid back steady playing (all genres). I would not call it boring but it does take discipline to NOT embellish at times. IMO, urban gospel music seems to be the only genre where the bassists get to 'go off' more than usual. I just find it a bit self serving. Admittedly, some of it does sound good.
*Side note: I owned and ran my own project studio for about 10 years when I lived in NY.
It's good that we all have different opinions. It just shows and proves that we all come from different places and have our own unique experiences.
Tad Dal..Kudos! ;D
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who likes to play pocket! I DO!!
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Straight up pocket player here bro. Holdin' down the bottom and ridin' the groove. It's an old school thang. :-)
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People seem to remember the pocket players the most. My brother and I attended an concert different styles and all, but most people like the pocket player. I like the other bass player, but being a Bass Player I hear all the bass notes. My brother liked the pocket player too. I asked him did you hear the riffs and licks, but his answer was I can not hum riffs. Out of every song played, the old song by the Staple Singers " I'll take you there" was remembered the most"
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I have to agree with DWBass, there is nothing wrong being in the pocket, adding some fills brings out the individual, but to completely overpower the song isn't necessary, every song doesn't have to be busy
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I have to agree with DWBass, there is nothing wrong being in the pocket, adding some fills brings out the individual, but to completely overpower the song isn't necessary, every song doesn't have to be busy
Right Right
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Whats up Fellas its been awhile but this threed is very instresting. i Agree with DW the pockett is where the money is at. When it was time for my boi michel Ross to do his live recording a lot of bass players wated to get on that joint. it came down to three of us a dude ironicly his name is Fitzgerald, Ben Bennet and Me. I Was the least experiance at the time but my pockett was so tight i won the spot over two cats who had been playing pro for a long time. But none of them could stay in the pockett. and belive it or not some bass players sound better in person than on a CD. I Still turned the Gig down because they called me a little late and wanted me to learn twelve songs in two weeks. wich is a possible, but at the time I had another concert i had to do that i had been preparing for weeks. and they both ran a day apart. So My Boi Fitzgerald took the gig and yes he killed it almost to much. He over played the songs. To Agree Whith Brown when he said its on the producer. the producer wanted him to play all over the song showing off his skills. i end up getting the workshops and when i took the same songs that he did and played it in the pockett it sounded better. play in the pockett you get mor calls that way.
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Whats up Fellas its been awhile but this threed is very instresting. i Agree with DW the pockett is where the money is at. When it was time for my boi michel Ross to do his live recording a lot of bass players wated to get on that joint. it came down to three of us a dude ironicly his name is Fitzgerald, Ben Bennet and Me. I Was the least experiance at the time but my pockett was so tight i won the spot over two cats who had been playing pro for a long time. But none of them could stay in the pockett. and belive it or not some bass players sound better in person than on a CD. I Still turned the Gig down because they called me a little late and wanted me to learn twelve songs in two weeks. wich is a possible, but at the time I had another concert i had to do that i had been preparing for weeks. and they both ran a day apart. So My Boi Fitzgerald took the gig and yes he killed it almost to much. He over played the songs. To Agree Whith Brown when he said its on the producer. the producer wanted him to play all over the song showing off his skills. i end up getting the workshops and when i took the same songs that he did and played it in the pockett it sounded better. play in the pockett you get mor calls that way.
Perfect!
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I always had the philosophy that I don't really want people to notice me until I'm gone. Most of the time, when you're just holding down the bottom, people don't even notice you. But, when you're not there, they notice something's missing.
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The pocket is what will get you HIRED!!! Trust me,I know from experience! :-) I'm gonna give you a perfect example of what happens when the ENTIRE BAND plays in the pocket...
Listen to THIS>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62h8n1cQCL0
Everybody is on the same page and no one is trying to get the spotlight...it's all about the GROOVE!!!!!
Peace,
Jackie
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Now that was some 'deep' pocket right there!
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I always had the philosophy that I don't really want people to notice me until I'm gone. Most of the time, when you're just holding down the bottom, people don't even notice you. But, when you're not there, they notice something's missing.
+1
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The pocket is what will get you HIRED!!! Trust me,I know from experience! :-) I'm gonna give you a perfect example of what happens when the ENTIRE BAND plays in the pocket...
Listen to THIS>>>>> [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62h8n1cQCL0[/url]
Everybody is on the same page and no one is trying to get the spotlight...it's all about the GROOVE!!!!!
Peace,
Jackie
Now that was some 'deep' pocket right there!
Man, that groove was TIGHT! Makes me wanna go buy that DVD to hear the rest!
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that im feelin. i could be there like all day in that. just vibing. trying to figure out how to incorporate music like that into the gospel and church environment.
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Gotta luv jamals sluggish pocket grooves man http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRZS02rdGtk&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRZS02rdGtk&feature=related)