LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Gospel Keyboard / Piano => Topic started by: divinemusician on March 14, 2008, 08:47:35 PM
-
Why are there so many unfaithful musicians. We as musicians should have standards and set standards in the music world. We have fought for so long to be on the "payroll" but yet we are slacking in the "do your job" roll. I know not all musicians are like this. But I personally think if you are the M.O.M or you play at your church you need to be faithful to the ministry. When the church has their doors open you need to be there. That is through the week, on the weekend, for engagements, etc. Even if you don't get paid, you vowed to be the musician(s) of the church. DO YOUR JOB. I don't like seeing musicians, esp. gifted musicians not take their job serious. You are first and formost playing for God, second you are doing a work for His kingdom. Also understand your roll. Be at choir rehearsals, praise team rehearsals, etc. Have your music together, teach parts, know parts (if you slacking or dont understand how to teach parts, ask God to help you) learn your theory. Give your best. I am so tired of us musicians slacking. Even if you play for a church with 5 people and you just starting out. BE FAITHFUL unto the ministry!! God will bless faithfulness!!!!!!!!!!!!
AM I WRONG??????????????????????
-
Why are there so many unfaithful musicians.
Because churches tolerate them.
Why should the musican be there any time the church is open? You gonna have to pull my coat on that one.
As far as playing extra services and funerals for free. That all depends on the agreements at the start of employment. Why should a musician do all those extra things for free, when he could be with his/her family? Or working another job so that he can feed his family. Food dont grow on trees... Bad anology, but you know what I'm sayin. To many musicians, this is thier job and livelihood, thier Business. The church has no problem paying the landscapers and the plumbers, but then they wanna cheap out on the ones who minister
Maybe when the church takes musicians seriously, then the musicans will step they game up. Some churches need to fire some of their musicians, but they cant "have church" without an organist
-
No disrespect but I don't recall saying Musicians Should Play For Free!! What I said is do your job. If you are getting paid, then do your job. How can a church take a musician seriously when he/she comes when they want too. I didn't say give up our life. (PLEASE READ CAREFULLY) I understand musicians have other jobs. Missing church because you are working is a reason for not being there but missing church because you want to catch up on a TV show to me is not. All I am saying is be faithful regardless if you get paid or not. who you playing for the church or The church that belongs to God!! There is clearly a difference. We got a lot of musicians just playing for the church. But a musician with a purpose understands that your playing is your praise unto God. And you can have church without a musician don't get it twisted. We just make it sound a little better. God does not need music to show up in service. Dont ever think you the only thing a church has. (No you didn't say that Under13, but it can be vary well implied.) My whole point was be faithful!! Playing for weddings and funerals are up to the people that are having the wedding or funeral....
-
I'm Sorry, When you said "Even if you don't get paid, you vowed to be the musician(s) of the church. DO YOUR JOB"
I took that as playing extra things for free. Like I said before, its all about what the musician and the church agreed upon. If the musician agrees to play for extra engagements etc. for no pay, then you are correct, but If they dont then they should be paid what they initially agreed upon.
Maybe we are talking about two different kind of musicians. I'm talking from a professional standpoint. I guess you were talking about immature lazy musicians
All I am saying is be faithful regardless if you get paid or not. who you playing for the church or The church that belongs to God!!
Being a musician is hard work. Just because we play for God, doesnt mean we have to be taken advantage of, playing 4 days a week, on a 2 day a week salary.
Right now i'm playing at a church for just about nothing. I'm not gonna be running back and forth to evening services, youth service, prayer service, fish dinner service etc for no pay. If my home church needs me to play, them I'm taking a sunday off. if wanna sunday off to go something else, I'ma do so and not feel guilty.
-
Because churches tolerate them.
There you have it!!!! I agree with you divinemusician but this wouldn't be happening if the leadership in the church would refuse to tolerate this foolishness. But because of the fact that folk can't get their praise without the "B3" going then that's why they sell out when it comes to the musicians. Musicians are held to a lower standard and everyone else has to be like mice walking on cotton. It's a dawg gone shame and it really ticks me off because "I AM REAL"....I live according to the word (to the best of my ability) but it took me nearly a year and a half to get the two churches that I have now. Not because these churches just became available but because the musicians that they had were pathetic and lived messed up lives. At any rate, I am thankful to have the chance that I have now so please don't get me wrong but I'm just saying it can be hard when you're struggling to do right by God but you continue to get passed over. Ok let me shet up :-X :-X :-X
-
haha yea we talking about two different musicians. A Professional musician knows his/her role. But what I am saying is in all you do be faithful. If you play for two church just be faithful to your deepest ability. I understand playing for what you think is little of nothing can be hard, but the Bible says if you are faithful over the few... (thats in all you do) God will make you ruler over many. A lot of people think that scripture is for church membership, haha. But that is in all. Your faithfulness counts a lot with God. Thats why faith (FAITHfulness) is so pleasing in Gods eyes.
if you know any church that has a fish fry service hit me up, haha i love fish fry....naw but seriously just be faithful in life in general
Chevonee... girl you a bad musician and I wish you all the best in this world. God will bless your REALNESS!!!
Sometimes we musicians forget that we are God's Children before we are MUSICIANS... God's will and way should always come first. Be a Man/Woman of God first before you be a Musician and God will lead and guide you and most of all protect you and your "money" (in other words, you wont be lacking anything because He is your provider)
-
haha yea we talking about two different musicians. A Professional musician knows his/her role. But what I am saying is in all you do be faithful. If you play for two church just be faithful to your deepest ability. There is a difference if you just a lazy person. You should not feel guilty from your stand point. I totally understand that...
if you know any church that has a fish fry service hit me up, haha i love fish fry....naw but seriously just be faithful in life in general
We have so many fish fries around here that it ain't even funny. We're going to turn into fish or chickens if we're not mo' careful-er (int)....LOL ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D
-
At any rate, I am thankful to have the chance that I have now so please don't get me wrong
but I'm just saying it can be hard when you're struggling to do right by God but you continue to get passed over. Ok let me shet up :-X :-X :-X
Me too. I'm not taking the opportunities I have for granted, even if I'm not geting paid. We gotta be patient. Our time will come.
We have so many fish fries around here that it ain't even funny. We're going to turn into fish or chickens if we're not mo' careful-er (int)....LOL ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D
If yall start posting pictures of fried fish, I'ma go postal!
-
Chavonee... I am going to need some directions... what kind of fish we talkin... hahaha see what you you started Under13 now I want some fish and grits... haha
-
Why are there so many unfaithful musicians. We as musicians should have standards and set standards in the music world. We have fought for so long to be on the "payroll" but yet we are slacking in the "do your job" roll. I know not all musicians are like this. But I personally think if you are the M.O.M or you play at your church you need to be faithful to the ministry. When the church has their doors open you need to be there. That is through the week, on the weekend, for engagements, etc. Even if you don't get paid, you vowed to be the musician(s) of the church. DO YOUR JOB. I don't like seeing musicians, esp. gifted musicians not take their job serious. You are first and formost playing for God, second you are doing a work for His kingdom. Also understand your roll. Be at choir rehearsals, praise team rehearsals, etc. Have your music together, teach parts, know parts (if you slacking or dont understand how to teach parts, ask God to help you) learn your theory. Give your best. I am so tired of us musicians slacking. Even if you play for a church with 5 people and you just starting out. BE FAITHFUL unto the ministry!! God will bless faithfulness!!!!!!!!!!!!
AM I WRONG??????????????????????
I think you're talking about Flaky musicians (not to be confused with flaky catfish, LOL) The type who show up when it suits them, or, worse yet, blow off rehearsal and come in Sunday morning. The come in vocal as well as instrumental flavors.
Not all churches can pay, but those who do have that leverage to enforce responsibility. Unfortunately it's too often the clergy/people in churches that take advantage of a musician's willingness to serve...
-
thats it.. betnich you hit it on the head... flaky musicians... (like that cat fish comment. cat fish is good though, haha) those musicians that could careless they just doing it for the money or the show...i don't like those musicians because they give us real musicians a bad name... i guess in all professions like some pastors you have your FAKE ones!!
-
All we bleeve (int) in eating around here is cat fish.... ::) which I despise because I don't like bones in my fish. So I mostly eat talapia...TOO PROPER FAH YAH HUH!!! LOL.... ;D :D ;D :D :D ;D :D ;D :D I'm just kidding with ya...you know that dontcha.... ;D
-
Right now I have a freezer full of Talapia... but it is pre cut (the store bought version) nothing actually caught. but howbever it is still GOOD. I also have Perch and Grouper... hahaha wow and shrimp..
-
Right now I have a freezer full of Talapia... but it is pre cut (the store bought version) nothing actually caught. but howbever it is still GOOD. I also have Perch and Grouper... hahaha wow and shrimp..
Daaaang I have Talapia, Mullette (sp?) for my hubby, jumbo shrimp, and some crab that I'm going to stuff later today...LOL!!! ;D :D ;D :D :D ;D :D
-
Daaaang I have Talapia, Mullette (sp?) for my hubby, jumbo shrimp, and some crab that I'm going to stuff later today...LOL!!! ;D :D ;D :D :D ;D :D
Did Somebawdy say Scrimps?
-
haha gurrr.... >:( ;D you got some crabs :D... oh Goodness I love those things. with garlic and butter... haha under13 crazy talkin about them scrimps.. haha
-
Churchs tolerate musician because the musician knows that we live in music driven society this includes the church. I am a pastor of a small ministry. I have had a tough time dealing with musicians (pianist, organist, drummer) I have fired two maybe three musician because they repeatedly arrive late and leave early. The church can not be held hostage by musicians. If God has planted you in a ministry. Be committed or don't play. I believe that musicians should get paid but if that is the only goal than perhaps one should just call him/herself a hirling and spell it out on a contract.
-
Churchs tolerate musician because the musician knows that we live in music driven society this includes the church. I am a pastor of a small ministry. I have had a tough time dealing with musicians (pianist, organist, drummer) I have fired two maybe three musician because they repeatedly arrive late and leave early. The church can not be held hostage by musicians. If God has planted you in a ministry. Be committed or don't play. I believe that musicians should get paid but if that is the only goal than perhaps one should just call him/herself a hirling and spell it out on a contract.
Not that I'm against hiring musicians (all my friends here need to be hired ;D), but I would strongly advise that you identify all the people in your church who are 1stly, committed/ show some committment, 2ndly, who will be in the church for some time to come (in most probability).
See that they also have the desire/ passion to learn music/ to play an instrument.
Invest in them...take them to music workshops/ lessons.
They might be slow learners, but you must not lose heart.
Live by God's principles (God sticks to His Word, no matter what--hence Let God be True & every man a liar)..ie, by developing the little He has given you, you will reap abundantly more. :)
When do you do all this?
---NOW!! In the next board meeting, bring the issue up & put finances aside for this.
it doesn't matter that you might have 2 or more players now...there is a season for everything, so be ready in & out of season.
& who knows, You might be blessed & have some1 offer to teach/ mentor your people for free or at discounted rates (because the God I (we) serve works in mysterious ways.)
Sometimes we musicians forget that we are God's Children before we are MUSICIANS... God's will and way should always come first. Be a Man/Woman of God first before you be a Musician and God will lead and guide you and most of all protect you and your "money" (in other words, you wont be lacking anything because He is your provider)
The funny thing is that I don't even consider myself a musician yet because naturally, I'm not musically gifted, all I have now has been through sheer determination, passion & of course God's favor..
The only 2 reasons I ever took up playing was so that I could worship God anytime I wanted with the added effects of instruments without having to call on a musician ..& to fill in the gap at church if there was ever a time when all the players were not there..
But it looks like God is leading to pastures never envisaged before, & I vow to be FAITHFUL DivineMusician ;)
-
I see a lot of good info in a lot of these posts.To me,it comes down to "come let us reason together on both sides-clergy and musicians.WORD says to study to be approved workmen,diligent with your hands, not slackers,not weary in doing good.The clergy many times need to be realastic in their expectations;the effort to play;time ,gear costs,etc.,time away from family should be considered and evaluated on a 6-12 month basis.Too often the clergy gets so wrapped up in "their vision,ministry,goals,vanity,being served etc." they lose sight of people and start to treat them like chattel.They need big collections,big cars,good stuff and forget to love others( sort of like one of the TWO commandments JESUS left us with). Musicians need to remember what we are doing is FIRST unto LORD.If LORD has blessed you with abilities-GALATIANS says"to whom a gift has been given,use it to minister". We need to hear that we will "all stand before the judgement seat of CHRIST and give an accounting for things done in the body-good or bad". If that verse doesn't get (and keep) your attention;a 20 page diatribe wont either! Here's a novel idea-why don't we all-clergy or lay ministers return to our first love-JESUS CHRIST;get the sin out of our lives.If your in a situation that isn't good,pray about it,speak to those involved,seek REASON,if you have grace and liberty to stay-do so;or leave. ACTS 3;esp 19+42-5
-
well said Doc :)
-
I agree with everything u said divinemusician.
Here's the problem I see with a lot of church musicians, ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS THE MUSIC. That in my opinion is such a tragedy. Your first concern should be your soul, that means getting the Word just like everybody else. Your next concern should be ministering through music as well as in your daily life. You are a minister first, and a musician second. How u gonna minister if u don't get the word?
A lot of musicians only show up when they have to play, then u don't see them anymore. What about your soul? What good is it to be a church musician all your life then die and go to Hell?
I believe that musicians should get paid but if that is the only goal than perhaps one should just call him/herself a hirling and spell it out on a contract.
There are a lot of "hirelings" in the church musician world, so sad.
-
Churchs tolerate musician because the musician knows that we live in music driven society this includes the church. I am a pastor of a small ministry. I have had a tough time dealing with musicians (pianist, organist, drummer) I have fired two maybe three musician because they repeatedly arrive late and leave early. The church can not be held hostage by musicians. If God has planted you in a ministry. Be committed or don't play. I believe that musicians should get paid but if that is the only goal than perhaps one should just call him/herself a hirling and spell it out on a contract.
totally agree... IF GOD HAS PLANTED YOU IN A MINISTRY...... KEY WORDS.. BE COMMITTED OR DON'T PLAY... SAID VERY WELL.
-
But it looks like God is leading to pastures never envisaged before, & I vow to be FAITHFUL DivineMusician ;)
You know Musallio God gave me the name DivineMusician because like you i am not gifted as far as playing a keyboard, etc. Through struggles and hard work I am getting to be an alright musician but I vowed that with being in this music thing I would give God my all and do my very best. I would allow Him to lead as I follow, I vowed I would be HIS DIVINEmusician. Divine coming before the musician so therefore I am God's child before I ever take the title of Musician... I have a DIVINE purpose and I want to be that musician that sets standards not follow standards( unless they are of God)
-
musicians should be faithful; they should be dedicated in what they do, making God their main priority instead of money. Regardless of whether they're getting paid or not, money should not be the first thing in their mind as a church musician, it should be God.
-
You know Musallio God gave me the name DivineMusician because like you i am not gifted as far as playing a keyboard, etc. Through struggles and hard work I am getting to be an alright musician but I vowed that with being in this music thing I would give God my all and do my very best. I would allow Him to lead as I follow, I vowed I would be HIS DIVINEmusician. Divine coming before the musician so therefore I am God's child before I ever take the title of Musician... I have a DIVINE purpose and I want to be that musician that sets standards not follow standards( unless they are of God)
Blessed be thou in your going in & your coming out sista :)
I agree with everything u said divinemusician.
Here's the problem I see with a lot of church musicians, ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS THE MUSIC. That in my opinion is such a tragedy. Your first concern should be your soul, that means getting the Word just like everybody else. Your next concern should be ministering through music as well as in your daily life. You are a minister first, and a musician second. How u gonna minister if u don't get the word?
A lot of musicians only show up when they have to play, then u don't see them anymore. What about your soul? What good is it to be a church musician all your life then die and go to Hell?
There are a lot of "hirelings" in the church musician world, so sad.
Ok, I saw this today at church...I was suppossed to play the lead, & my sister was going to be on backup/ vice versa..
But then the main guy who plays for the choir came (don't want to go into other irky details..).
Actually, he asked for my board from my sis, so i said it's cool, he can play main & I can just play lightly in the background (afterall, who am I coz I'm just a newcomer into this playing world who just relies on God to use me to minister to the souls that hear the music as well as to minister to me, while he's been on the road all his life..)..So all was cool, I connect the system etc...& woola, we have American guests, so the guy tells me: Mus, can I play alone today because we have these people here, I didn't know they'd be here...(& guess what was the other thing...my sis who is always "never in the mood" to practice with me at home was all of a sudden in the Spirit to play.. ::) I just said, sure sis, go ahead)...I tried to explain to this guy that I'd play really really softly just to get a feel coz I'll be playing next week anyway..but U could see that I was trying to mess up his opportunity to show off to the American guests..twas written all over in his face, so i just said, it's cool man, but just let my sis play in the background anyway..I wasn't there 4 show-off or anything, i was just there to play a God-given role at church, so if today wasn't the day, then I wasn't going to seek my will, but His.
Mind U , the playing was so astounding...the choir sang Now Behold The Lamb & another fancy song..all very well..The talk music I heard today..it was so good..
I thought, Wow, these people should be permanent here so that the music is perfect from start to finish.
& most importantly, at the end of the service, the guests went to the guy & congratulated & were asking him all particulars...At that point I said to myself: Well, the guy got what he wanted,so I'm happy for him..But I also prayed & said Lord, help me to do it for your Glory..I don't want to sin against you coz it's so easy..
Anyway, I shouldn't be playing alone next week because there is another man who used to play ages ago & I asked him if we can play together...hopefully we will both be doing it for God's glory, not to show that we can play like this dude.
Lord help us & have mercy on us..
I love U guys here because U are God-Centered..& so far as church is concerned, it should be purerly about that.
-
I think when the musician is givien periodic instruction they will come into an understanding of how their role in the ministry is important. In my course i don't just give chords and tips to playng but I give practical instuction as to how a church musician should prepare themselves for worship before the service starts. I feel that musicians need to have their own monthy service/shed were they can be ministered to as musicians. You've heard the statement "preaching to choir" that's when something is being said to people who are doing the right thing and the people who need to hear it are not there.
Many musicians will not "hear" what being said in this thread because they are "deaf" to hearing the truth about them. Post a few chord and they're all over this site looknig for a midi file or the notes written out for them.
Pay for play, there's a thread that will provoke controversey......I'll leave that alone.
Sam Tolbert
35 years full time church musician
COGIC, Baptist and United Methodist Church
-
Dr. Tolbert, U've hit again with your wisdom..
I take heed of what you say & couldn't say what you've said any better..
Please go into that controversial thread...It would be interesting to see where it will lead us...
-
See you want to get me banned of this board :)
Well, if the "laborer is worthy of his/her hire....."who determines if they're worthy and what they are worth?
Basketball players get million dollar salaries to play a school yard game, however, the people who watch pay as much as 1000.00 for front court seats to expirience a good game.
Basebal players get millions of dollars to throw a round object at each other but, people pay 40-85.00 per game to watch them do this and expirience a good game.
Musicians sacrifice the most valuable commodity they have(time) in practicing, rehearsaing, traveling, puting up with choir members and because of their talent
people bring in thousands of dollars a month into a ministry to experience a good service.
Take away the music and all you have a meeting............
If preachers preach for pay....singers sing for pay.....why shouldn't the musician play for.......if they're worthy
-
You have a point there Mr Tolbert...Especially guys like you who really give your all & most importantly are true servants of God..
You are well worth to be paid...how much, it's not for me to say, but no doubt you should be paid.
2 weeks ago I was with this pastor. He tells me that a guy who plays at his friend's church wants to be paid (I think it's because he's suddenly heard that other players are being paid).
I believe that it is the right thing to pay the players for their time sacrifice etc ( the pay is really not so much for playing to praise God as most ignorant people claim/ try to put down "divine" musicians, but rather,for the extra mile they go to serve the people (i.t.o. time, skill etc...God doesn't need our skill, but the people certainly WANT our skill (most often than not) & that requires that we do everything to be the best we can, & surely should be paid like the illustrations you've used).
Anyway, back to my story:
The guy/ player, 1st of all, plays in 1 key & transposes everything...(ok, I guess that's fine, you should still be paid if you are fulfilling your job..he plays what the people like, so it's ok).
But, the guy doesn't practice, so he can't really say he should be paid for his practice time..
So in my view, the guy is really spotting a $$$ making opportunity & expects to be paid for playing in a normal church service @ his home church ::)
It's understandable if he's called to play at some special function at a weird time, but on a regular service ::)
So this pastor tells me that he'd rather the guy stops playing & he hires a full time player/ MoM whom he'll be more than happy to compensate appropriately.
The pastor also plays BTW, & he know what real players have to go through...
-
Look I been playing faithly at my church for five year. but i been musician 22 years (play drums and brass horns). I have not been paid once. but i notice that my faithness, doing God work payoff in a long run. My curtain church don't paid me, i don't ask to be paid. God really take care of me and my family. because of my faithless God heal my son from cancer,and at 31yrs old God had Bless me with a home (that paid for). That why i give my all to the Lord.
Good is a God and he will take care of those that do his will. so if your church is not paying don't worry God will open doors for you. Just Be Faithful
-
Look I been playing faithly at my church for five year. but i been musician 22 years (play drums and brass horns). I have not been paid once. but i notice that my faithness, doing God work payoff in a long run. My curtain church don't paid me, i don't ask to be paid. God really take care of me and my family. because of my faithless God heal my son from cancer,and at 31yrs old God had Bless me with a home (that paid for). That why i give my all to the Lord.
Good is a God and he will take care of those that do his will. so if your church is not paying don't worry God will open doors for you. Just Be Faithful
AMEN !!!
PRAISE, GLORY & ALL HONOR GO UNTO THE Lord!! 8)
Thanks for sharing this powerful testimony..
God's principles are mind-blowing :o
-
Look I been playing faithly at my church for five year. but i been musician 22 years (play drums and brass horns). I have not been paid once. but i notice that my faithness, doing God work payoff in a long run. My curtain church don't paid me, i don't ask to be paid. God really take care of me and my family. because of my faithless God heal my son from cancer,and at 31yrs old God had Bless me with a home (that paid for). That why i give my all to the Lord.
Good is a God and he will take care of those that do his will. so if your church is not paying don't worry God will open doors for you. Just Be Faithful
AND THE CHURCH SAID AMEN! I think as musicians we get stuck on everybody else getting paid... but I feel if yuo get paid or not be faithful after all you are playing for God not people. I don't really agree with Mr Tolbert on if you dont' have musicians/music you jut have a meeting.... you can have church with just your hands clappin and your feet stomppin.. but that is my personal thoughts. I dont ever want to be where I think a church cant have church unless I am tappin some keys because God said where two or three are gathered together in HIS name there He is in the mist. Not if the musicians are there playing their instruments... dont' get me wrong because I am an up and coming musician i just dont want to get it twisted that the church "need" me to have church...
-
:o This is one of the many reasons I love this site. So much insight. I just had this conversation with a musician today. In that he said, quote-unquote, "I'm am all about the dollar." I have to agree with divinemusician, I pray that I never get to the point that I feel that the church needs me to have church. I've played at 2 other churches (large), a mess from the front to the back, and was getting paid. I now play for a small church, sometimes I get paid, sometimes don't. However, I feel this is where the Lord has placed me. I do have a home church, which is much larger, and I attend when I can. In the small church, I not only play, when asked, I have done Christmas Programs, Easter, prayer breakfast, etc. Not only playing but doing whatever is needed. With all that said, I don't work, husband is disabled, but I haven't missed a meal or anything else. The Good Lord does provide. (God Bless you TheBig030)-Just be faithful!
-
Speaking of paid staff musicians...How many do "extra" above and beyond their job description?
Just curious...
;)
-
Speaking of paid staff musicians...How many do "extra" above and beyond their job description?
Just curious...
;)
I do whatever I can to help the church, even if it's not music related. Just because you have a certain position at church don't meant u can't help out in other areas as needed. ;)
-
Speaking of paid staff musicians...How many do "extra" above and beyond their job description?
Just curious...
;)
I feel very sorry for ppl who see nothing beyond their playing at church, whether paid or not..
The church can only be what people desire it to be if everyone will faithfully serve..
If you want to be begged all the time just to feel important, God doesn't favor any1 & He will bring in some1 to play that role that you were selfish & lazy to play..
That's why it's important for churches to not allow just any1 to play just because they can play..
Ideal, it should be some1 with a heart to serve..afterall, ministry is all about service.."Not just the $$$$!!" let's not go into the $ debate now.
-
that where your Blessing come from, servering the Lord and hi children, but also doing it with a cheerful heart
-
I do whatever I can to help the church, even if it's not music related. Just because you have a certain position at church don't meant u can't help out in other areas as needed. ;)
TOTALLY AGREE T-BLOCK