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Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: chevonee on April 07, 2008, 01:57:45 AM
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Ok guys let me say to start out, I have done a search but I couldn't seem to find the answer to my question. My question is:
What is the formula to a C, F, E, etc. 7 #9#5 and how do you come up with it? I know that the chords for F7 #9#5 (F/A Db Eb Ab) but I have no idea how to come up with that chord for myself using the major scale. Please help or if this answer has already been posted please post the link. God bless you all and thanks in advance for any help that you provide.
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I LOVE this chord!!!
Here is the formula, if i'm wrong, mebbe someone will correct me (at their own risk :D);
1+3+#5+b7+#9
O course when i play a #9 #5 chord i play it this way;
LH- 1+5+b7
RH- #5+ #9
Its a cool chord
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I also forgot to tell you that you don't need the 5 there but i like it cuz t creates some dissonance. I don't really like dissonance and this is dissonant enough for me.
Anyway here is a GREAT website to get chord voicings: Chord Voicings (http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/)
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If you play a major triad, two whole steps down from another chord, you'll get a #5#9 type chord. Go three whole steps and you get a b5b9 type chord.
F-A-Eb \ Ab-Db-F = F7 (#5 #9)
F-A-Eb \ Gb-B-Eb = F7 (b5 b9)
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I kinda dont understand the question but I think its supposed to be F7#5#9
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I kinda dont understand the question but I think its supposed to be F7#5#9
I don't think it makes any difference which one comes first; the #9 or the #5. I finger it with the #9 before the #5.
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Once you know your basic 7th chords (Maj7, dominant 7, m7, m7b5, dim7) Most of the alterations occur in the dominant 7 chord (1 - 3- 5- b7). In reality only two notes can be altered. The 3 can become a 4 (for the x7 sus 4) and the 5 can become #5 or b5. If you alter the 1, you are starting on a new root and therefore a new chord family. If you alter the 7, you are changing the chord quality. And any alteration of the third, OTHER THAN the sus4, (i.e. to b3) changes to a minor quality. So, a chord that is, say C7#5 simply means to raise the 5 one-half step. and a C7b5 simply means to lower the 5 one-half step. Important note: in chords, the # and b signs mean to raise or lower the step that naturally occurs in the chord. Thus a B7 #5 is B D# F##(or G) A. A B7 b5 is B D# F(natural) A (not an F0b or E).
Your next step is to learn all of the extensions -- 9, 11, 13 -- as they naturally occur in the chord scale. Thus a C 9,11,13 (C13) is C E G Bb D F A. A B 9,11,13 (B13) is B D# F# A C# E G#. A "#" with any of these numbers means to RAISE that chord member one-half step, and a "b" means to lower that by one-half step. In a C7 #9, the D becomes D#. In the B7 #9, the C# becomes C## (same as D). A C7 b9, the D becomes Db. A B7 b9, the C# becomes C natural.
Basically, you are just "following the instructions." Find the chord as it would be without alterations (C7 #5, #9 -- find the C7, 9 or C9 chord then follow the instructions for raising the indicated chord members.)
A C7 #5,#9 is C E G# Bb D#. A B7 #5,#9 is B D# F##(G) A C##(D). A # anything (#1, #4, #5, #9, #11) means to raise that chord member one-half from the member that naturally occurs (#4 -- often indicated +4, does occur in some jazz charts). A b anything (b1, b5, b9, b13) means to lower that chord member.
Note, there is no b11 (same as the major 3rd) and there is no #13 (same as the b7).
Here are the basic 7th qualities and the most standard alterations and tensions (9, 11, 13).
Major 7 -- #5, 9, #11, 13
dominant 7 -- sus4, sus2, #4 or b5, #5, b9, 9, #9, 11, #11, 13 -- a b13 is occasionally seen. It is the same as #5
minor 7 -- 9, 11, occasionally 13 or b13.
m7b5 -- 9, occasionally b9
diminished 7 -- 9, occasionally b9
note a #9 is the same as the minor 3rd so it would be redundant in any of the minor chords.
The major 7 does generally not use natural 11 because the tritone between the 7 and the 11 has the effect of creating a (9), 11, 13 chord with the 5 as root. CMaj7 11 -- C E G B D F = G7 (9), 11,13 -- G B D G (A) C E
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Once you know your basic 7th chords (Maj7, dominant 7, m7, m7b5, dim7) Most of the alterations occur in the dominant 7 chord (1 - 3- 5- b7). In reality only two notes can be altered. The 3 can become a 4 (for the x7 sus 4) and the 5 can become #5 or b5. If you alter the 1, you are starting on a new root and therefore a new chord family. If you alter the 7, you are changing the chord quality. And any alteration of the third, OTHER THAN the sus4, (i.e. to b3) changes to a minor quality. So, a chord that is, say C7#5 simply means to raise the 5 one-half step. and a C7b5 simply means to lower the 5 one-half step. Important note: in chords, the # and b signs mean to raise or lower the step that naturally occurs in the chord. Thus a B7 #5 is B D# F##(or G) A. A B7 b5 is B D# F(natural) A (not an F0b or E).
Your next step is to learn all of the extensions -- 9, 11, 13 -- as they naturally occur in the chord scale. Thus a C 9,11,13 (C13) is C E G Bb D F A. A B 9,11,13 (B13) is B D# F# A C# E G#. A "#" with any of these numbers means to RAISE that chord member one-half step, and a "b" means to lower that by one-half step. In a C7 #9, the D becomes D#. In the B7 #9, the C# becomes C## (same as D). A C7 b9, the D becomes Db. A B7 b9, the C# becomes C natural.
Basically, you are just "following the instructions." Find the chord as it would be without alterations (C7 #5, #9 -- find the C7, 9 or C9 chord then follow the instructions for raising the indicated chord members.)
A C7 #5,#9 is C E G# Bb D#. A B7 #5,#9 is B D# F##(G) A C##(D). A # anything (#1, #4, #5, #9, #11) means to raise that chord member one-half from the member that naturally occurs (#4 -- often indicated +4, does occur in some jazz charts). A b anything (b1, b5, b9, b13) means to lower that chord member.
Note, there is no b11 (same as the major 3rd) and there is no #13 (same as the b7).
Here are the basic 7th qualities and the most standard alterations and tensions (9, 11, 13).
Major 7 -- #5, 9, #11, 13
dominant 7 -- sus4, sus2, #4 or b5, #5, b9, 9, #9, 11, #11, 13 -- a b13 is occasionally seen. It is the same as #5
minor 7 -- 9, 11, occasionally 13 or b13.
m7b5 -- 9, occasionally b9
diminished 7 -- 9, occasionally b9
note a #9 is the same as the minor 3rd so it would be redundant in any of the minor chords.
The major 7 does generally not use natural 11 because the tritone between the 7 and the 11 has the effect of creating a (9), 11, 13 chord with the 5 as root. CMaj7 11 -- C E G B D F = G7 (9), 11,13 -- G B D G (A) C E
This was a perfect answer. Thanks for sharing the knowledge!!
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My biggest question is, how does one determine which chord quality one should use.
For instance, I like (well, LOVE) the sound of a G13 (b9) chord going to a C min chord. But, I ALSO like the sound of that chord going to a C Maj chord. For me and my ear development, it seems to depend on the "melody" note.
So, how does that work?
BTW, for the G13 (b9) to the C min, I guess you could say we're in Eb Maj. For the other chord progression, you could say we're in C. :-\
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My biggest question is, how does one determine which chord quality one should use.
For instance, I like (well, LOVE) the sound of a G13 (b9) chord going to a C min chord. But, I ALSO like the sound of that chord going to a C Maj chord. For me and my ear development, it seems to depend on the "melody" note.
So, how does that work?
BTW, for the G13 (b9) to the C min, I guess you could say we're in Eb Maj. For the other chord progression, you could say we're in C. :-\
First, the melody note is a prime consideration. If the melody not for and indicate G7 is an A natural, then you obviously have a conflict between the Ab of the G13 (b9) and the A nat. melody. If the melody note is otherwise not in conflict, then your choice is guided by the character of the sound that you want to convey. G13 (b9) is the standard form of the 9 of a G chord when you are in C minor (C natural and harmonic minor scales contain Ab). In the case of G13 (b9) to C maj -- the additional pull of the b9 (Ab) to the 5th of C (G) is compelling.
Also note that more often than not, the primary melody notes will be the 1, 3, or 5, sometimes 7, only occasionally 9, 13, and least often 11. You have choices of alterations and tensions for any non-melody note in the chord.
Also note that if you are playing with a guitarist, you will need to come into agreement on some of these. If you are playing solo you have a 64 color box of crayons.
Examples:
G7 with a B (3)melody. You can try altering the 5 (#5, b5), the 9 (#9, b9), and/or the 11 (#11 since b11 = 3 or B). You can also add the 13, but it is not altered). All of these are also available if the melody is F (7)
G7 with a D (5) melody. You can try adding and altering any of the above except, of course the 5.
To go even a step further. In a II - V situation or equivalent (Dm7 - G7) if the melody with the Dm7 is anything but F nat., you can actually often substitute a IIx7 (D7). Add a #9 and you get that wonderful bluesy. Maj vs. min 3rd (D / F# C F) That can even sometimes work if the melody IS on F nat.
Also generally, if you are using an altered 5 you use an altered 9 (#5 or b5 with #9 or b9 not nat. 9) and either case calls for #11, not nat. 11.
Because you have choices, you can use these variations in chord colors to help build the intensity of an arrangement. You may start of with fairly tame chords -- diatonic 5ths, 9ths, etc. and as your arrangement grows in intensity begin adding more chromatic tensions. Beyond that, there are no rules beyond your ears, taste, and intentions for the sound.
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NINJA!!!!!!!!!!!! That info you gave up there is PRICELESS!!!! I feel like i should pay for it.
Wow, as soon as i get home, i'm gonna try it.
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First, the melody note is a prime consideration. If the melody not for and indicate G7 is an A natural, then you obviously have a conflict between the Ab of the G13 (b9) and the A nat. melody. If the melody note is otherwise not in conflict, then your choice is guided by the character of the sound that you want to convey. G13 (b9) is the standard form of the 9 of a G chord when you are in C minor (C natural and harmonic minor scales contain Ab). In the case of G13 (b9) to C maj -- the additional pull of the b9 (Ab) to the 5th of C (G) is compelling.
Also note that more often than not, the primary melody notes will be the 1, 3, or 5, sometimes 7, only occasionally 9, 13, and least often 11. You have choices of alterations and tensions for any non-melody note in the chord.
Also note that if you are playing with a guitarist, you will need to come into agreement on some of these. If you are playing solo you have a 64 color box of crayons.
Examples:
G7 with a B (3)melody. You can try altering the 5 (#5, b5), the 9 (#9, b9), and/or the 11 (#11 since b11 = 3 or B). You can also add the 13, but it is not altered). All of these are also available if the melody is F (7)
G7 with a D (5) melody. You can try adding and altering any of the above except, of course the 5.
To go even a step further. In a II - V situation or equivalent (Dm7 - G7) if the melody with the Dm7 is anything but F nat., you can actually often substitute a IIx7 (D7). Add a #9 and you get that wonderful bluesy. Maj vs. min 3rd (D / F# C F) That can even sometimes work if the melody IS on F nat.
Also generally, if you are using an altered 5 you use an altered 9 (#5 or b5 with #9 or b9 not nat. 9) and either case calls for #11, not nat. 11.
Because you have choices, you can use these variations in chord colors to help build the intensity of an arrangement. You may start of with fairly tame chords -- diatonic 5ths, 9ths, etc. and as your arrangement grows in intensity begin adding more chromatic tensions. Beyond that, there are no rules beyond your ears, taste, and intentions for the sound.
I'm choking on all of this meat. Gonna. have. to. print. it. out. :-\
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I'm choking on all of this meat. Gonna. have. to. print. it. out. :-\
For real!!! Take small bites like me. :)
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Thanks everyone ;)!!! I'm still sort of mystified right now...but I know that it will all click very shortly. Jermaine Griggs wrote this chord as #9 #5, which is why I wrote it that way but now I know that you could write it as a #5 #9. Again thank you all for your help. Stay blessed!!!
Oh yeah and Mr. Grammar Wizard, how you gone go and high-jacck a sistahs thread like dat...YOu KNoW I'm KiDdInG, I HOPE! ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
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Thanks everyone ;)!!! I'm still sort of mystified right now...but I know that it will all click very shortly. Jermaine Griggs wrote this chord as #9 #5, which is why I wrote it that way but now I know that you could write it as a #5 #9. Again thank you all for your help. Stay blessed!!!
Oh yeah and Mr. Grammar Wizard, how you gone go and high-jacck a sistahs thread like dat...YOu KNoW I'm KiDdInG, I HOPE! ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
Cause I can DO that. 8)
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Wow, I'm late to the party. Looks like business has already been taken care of. Thanks rspindy and everyone else for stepping in and dropping some serious knowledge bombs.
And for you chevonee, just in case u didn't get everything that was said here, just remember that when u see a weird chord symbol, take it apart piece by piece then put it together. So, using your chord example:
F7 #9#5 = F7 (F dominant 7th chord) + #9 (raised 9) + #5 (raised 5)
F7 = F-A-C-Eb, *F-A-Eb *the 5th can be omitted
#9 = G#
#5 = C#
Put them together: F-A-C#-Eb-G#
Simple right?
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Also, some chords may be hard to recognize because of enharmonic note spellings. So, I'll use what u originally posted for the F7 #9#5 chord:
F / A-Db-Eb-Ab
If u change that Db to a C#, u have your #5. If you change your Ab to a G#, u have your #9. Just be aware of that, not everyone spells chords correctly. Even myself sometimes spell chords using enharmonics, that's just so I can match the key of the song.
Here is a post where I explained chord symbols for u and anyone else who needs it:
Chord Symbols: http://forums.learngospelmusic.com/index.php/topic,27648.msg193581.html#msg193581
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Thanks very much Mr. Block that helps alot. Sometimes I have the tendancy (sp?) to make things harder than they are.... :-[ :-[ :-[
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Cause I can DO that. 8)
So YOU are the Grammar Wizard!!!! I was always wondering who one earth this Grammar Wiz was. ::) :)
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note a #9 is the same as the minor 3rd so it would be redundant in any of the minor chords.
The major 7 does generally not use natural 11 because the tritone between the 7 and the 11 has the effect of creating a (9), 11, 13 chord with the 5 as root. CMaj7 11 -- C E G B D F = G7 (9), 11,13 -- G B D G (A) C E
I've gained qyt alot in these few minutes I've spent reading this stuff.. 8)
I know I could be wrong, but I'll ask anyway:
based on what the theory wiz (rspindy) said, am I wrong in calling this chord an xm#5 (or is it based more on where you are coming from & where you're headed?)
I hope that makes sense.
Thanks in advance.
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I've gained qyt alot in these few minutes I've spent reading this stuff.. 8)
I know I could be wrong, but I'll ask anyway:
based on what the theory wiz (rspindy) said, am I wrong in calling this chord an xm#5 (or is it based more on where you are coming from & where you're headed?)
I hope that makes sense.
Thanks in advance.
I don't see it as a minor chord. I see it as an altered dominant 7th chord with a #5 and #9.
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I don't see it as a minor chord. I see it as an altered dominant 7th chord with a #5 and #9.
Ok, I get U well man..So are you saying that it is based on the sound 1 hears i.o.ws?
I'll have to test it l8a to hear the sound..
Just another thought---how would an Fm#5 look like then ?/? ;D
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based on what the theory wiz (rspindy) said, am I wrong in calling this chord an xm#5 (or is it based more on where you are coming from & where you're headed?)
Yeah, I'd say you're wrong because u have two 3rds present, an A (major 3rd) and an Ab (minor 3rd. Look at the notes of the chord:
F, A, Db, Eb, Ab
You see those 2 A's? Well, that should tell u something. This is one of those times where it helps to rename the notes:
F, A, C#, Eb, G#
If you look at it this way, you can see that there is only one 3rd present, which is the major 3rd. So, calling the chord a minor of any kind is wrong. Does that make sense?
Just another thought---how would an Fm#5 look like then ?/? ;D
Well, I've never heard of such a chord, but I guess it would look like this: F-Ab-C-C#
But then that would just be a C#/Db major 7 chord in 1st inversion, so it's really an unnecessary chord name, LOL.
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Cause I can DO that. 8)
Indeed my friend!!! ;D
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Ok. Ok. Sheesh.
You don't have to talk about me on the sly! :)
I'll concede the "m#5" name. I always have look at the bass note. If these an E in the bass, then I'll name the chord as an E, in my head. It doesn't make it "right" though, but oh well....You learn something new every day.
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I agree with T-Block - best to call it a major chord.
As a curiosity, the #9 chord (without the #5) is also known in pop/rock as the Jimi Hendrix chord: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendrix_chord
From the page: "The chord is harmonically ambiguous, as it effectively is a major and a minor chord simultaneously"
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Ok. Ok. Sheesh.
You don't have to talk about me on the sly! :)
I am so confused. ?/? ?/? ?/?
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I am so confused. ?/? ?/? ?/?
Fenny, I think it's because T-Bone said he's never heard of a "xm#5", & B3 happened to have given an example of an Em#5 somewhere ;)
Yeah, I'd say you're wrong because u have two 3rds present, an A (major 3rd) and an Ab (minor 3rd. Look at the notes of the chord:
F, A, Db, Eb, Ab
You see those 2 A's? Well, that should tell u something. This is one of those times where it helps to rename the notes:
F, A, C#, Eb, G#
If you look at it this way, you can see that there is only one 3rd present, which is the major 3rd. So, calling the chord a minor of any kind is wrong. Does that make sense?
Well, I've never heard of such a chord, but I guess it would look like this: F-Ab-C-C#
But then that would just be a C#/Db major 7 chord in 1st inversion, so it's really an unnecessary chord name, LOL.
Ok T-Bone, all that you said makes purr-fect sense, thanks. It's just that I was looking at the notation in general (as you can see, I made no reference to the specific chord, merely the x#5#9..
I'll take the guru's word when he says there is no xm#5 (by implication..& can be viewed as the #Vmaj7)...But this leads me to another question:
If that /should that be the case, then why do all the music teachers say that ideally you should know the root so that the chord is named after the root?
So assuming that we had F as the root & Ab, Db, Eb fo the other notes, woud this not be an Fm#5 then (or would we have to call it a Db add9?)
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Fenny, I think it's because T-Bone said he's never heard of a "xm#5", & B3 happened to have given an example of an Em#5 somewhere ;)
Oh, now i geddit!!!!!!!!!
From what i have been noticing, it seems most of these alterations to chords are based off of the dominant 7 form of the chord. Is that right?
E.g the #9-#5 chord MUST have a b7 in there somewhere for it to have that "true" #9-#5 sound, right?
OK, lemme rephrase. Is it true to say that IF you choose to alter a chord by introducing a note that is not in the diatonic scale the chord is based off of, then the chord you alter must have a flat 7 in there somewhere?
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Nope.
If you alter the 3rd, the chord becomes a minor or suspended.
If you alter the 5th, the chord becomes diminished or augmented.
If you alter the 7th, the chord becomes dominant, unless the 3rd is minor, then it just becomes a min7. Flatting the 7th twice forms a dim7, if the 3rd is minor.
Those three degrees can change the actual chord name.
The 2nd, 4th, and 6th are less important degrees. If you add a 7th, they become 9, 11, and 13, which is like adding "7" to those degrees. (This is the way I look at it.)
When you alter these you don't really change the type of chord. You're just extending it.
If the chord was originally a dominant, and you add a 9, it'll still be dominant. It'll just be a dominant9.
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Oh, now i geddit!!!!!!!!!
From what i have been noticing, it seems most of these alterations to chords are based off of the dominant 7 form of the chord. Is that right?
E.g the #9-#5 chord MUST have a b7 in there somewhere for it to have that "true" #9-#5 sound, right?
OK, lemme rephrase. Is it true to say that IF you choose to alter a chord by introducing a note that is not in the diatonic scale the chord is based off of, then the chord you alter must have a flat 7 in there somewhere?
wo-ryt Fenbox, B3's answer is correct, but it left me wondering if you were asking what I was thinking you were asking :-\ :-\
I would have answered "yes", but now my answer is "yes &/no" depending on what you meant..(hence the importance of terminology..eg, alterations vs extensions etc)..i hope this is not confusing to anyone.. ?/?
The way I had originally understood your question (based on your last paragraph) was that you were asking more about extensions (9,11, adds etc), whether the way they are classified/ notated (ie. dominant or major) is based on the type of 7th we have..
I might not come across clear, but I'd like to believe that U understand the principles.
What you should really make sure you understand though is the stuff that T-Block was saying to me (VERY RELAVANT & USEFUL in demystifying this naming game ;)) & what B3 has just said (THE WHOLE NAMING THEORY in a nutshell for ya ;))
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If that /should that be the case, then why do all the music teachers say that ideally you should know the root so that the chord is named after the root?
So assuming that we had F as the root & Ab, Db, Eb fo the other notes, woud this not be an Fm#5 then (or would we have to call it a Db add9?)
The root tells u what inversion you are in, if ur in one at all, and lets u know where u are in the song. So, using your example if F was the root, then you would have: F, Ab, C#, Eb which would form an Fm7 (#5), i think. Just realize that it's gonna sound major because it is also a Dbadd9 chord in 2nd inversion.
Sound will also give u a hint as to what the root is. If you are calling a chord a minor type chord, but it sounds major, u should rethink your root, and vice versa.
That's my personal answer.
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Nope.
If you alter the 3rd, the chord becomes a minor or suspended.
If you alter the 5th, the chord becomes diminished or augmented.
If you alter the 7th, the chord becomes dominant, unless the 3rd is minor, then it just becomes a min7. Flatting the 7th twice forms a dim7, if the 3rd is minor.
Those three degrees can change the actual chord name.
The 2nd, 4th, and 6th are less important degrees. If you add a 7th, they become 9, 11, and 13, which is like adding "7" to those degrees. (This is the way I look at it.)
When you alter these you don't really change the type of chord. You're just extending it.
If the chord was originally a dominant, and you add a 9, it'll still be dominant. It'll just be a dominant9.
Perfect explanation, couldn't have said it better myself. ;)
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The root tells u what inversion you are in, if ur in one at all, and lets u know where u are in the song. So, using your example if F was the root, then you would have: F, Ab, C#, Eb which would form an Fm7 (#5), i think. Just realize that it's gonna sound major because it is also a Dbadd9 chord in 2nd inversion.
Sound will also give u a hint as to what the root is. If you are calling a chord a minor type chord, but it sounds major, u should rethink your root, and vice versa.
That's my personal answer.
Perfect answer, it's like you come into the brain of the questioner & really attend to the root of their concerns..
So sound is primary.
Great answer T..
Thanks.
btw, thanks for the correction on that Fm7(#5)
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it's like you come into the brain of the questioner & really attend to the root of their concerns..
That's what a good teacher is supposed to do, LOL. ;)
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And that's why I love LGM!!! :D :D :D
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And that's why I love LGM!!! :D :D :D
Me TOO!!!! ;)
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im gonna tell you the easiest way first you have to know your major scales there are 8 notes in a major scale and when you go over and continue to play the scale more than one octave thats were those big numbers come in for example in the key of C major
1 C
2 D 9 D
3 E 10 E
4 F 11 F
5 G 12 G
6 A 13 A (IT USUALLY NEVER GOES HIGHIER THAN 13)
7 B 14 B
8 C 15 C
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im gonna tell you the easiest way first you have to know your major scales there are 8 notes in a major scale and when you go over and continue to play the scale more than one octave thats were those big numbers come in for example in the key of C major
1 C
2 D 9 D
3 E 10 E
4 F 11 F
5 G 12 G
6 A 13 A (IT USUALLY NEVER GOES HIGHIER THAN 13)
7 B 14 B
8 C 15 C
Thanks for sharing this man...But please allow me to play the devil's advocate here:
I understand the way you have explained this stuff because this is how it was 1st explained to me..I liked it & thot wow, finally I've cracked the code to these extended chords..
But then I read more theory, & it told me something different, ie One reall needs any type of 7th note before they can speak of 9ths, 11ths or 13ths since the name i unique to that specific sound provided by the particular 7th note.
In other words, no matter what octave you are playing in, if you don't have that 7th note, then U are still playing that 2, 4 or 6, unless if U say add 9 or something of that effect.
In other words, I needn't go to the next octave to say I'm playing a 9th (eg. C/D-E-G-B)..
But man, I get what you are saying.
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Haven't had a chance to get on for a while.
Anyway, Musallio asked about an "xm #5"
Let's take a look.
Cm is C Eb G. If we were to raise the 5th (G) a half-step we get C Eb G#. What is another name for a G#? Ab. C Eb Ab is an Ab major chord in first inversion. Technically there is no Cm #5 since it is the same as an Ab major.
But, as I have thought about it, there are some contexts where a Cm #5 would make more sense than Ab.
In major, we've all heard the harmonic cliche -- C C+ C6. The analogous minor pattern would be -- Cm Ab/C Cm6 (listen to the James Bond Theme). Though the Ab/C is technically what we would call it, it is acting like the major version. The melodic line is ascending chromatically -- G - G# - A -- over a static C bass, which is clearer functionally than -- G - Ab - A.
That's one of the problems with the convention for naming chords. They name discrete combinations of notes but do not always indicate the harmonic function when two or more chords are combined. That has been a problem with our entire system of notation once music became more and more chromatic.
And [as he goes off on a tangent] there are instances, particularly in some types of modulation from one key to another, where a note or chord enters as one note or chord and leaves as its enharmonic equivalent. An example would be to start out as if we are doing our musical cliche -- C C+ C6 ... except The C+ (and its G# melody) leaves as an Ab+ (with and Ab melody) followed by Dbm7 Gbx7 CbM7 (we have just modulated from C major to Cb major. [End of tangent].
So, in the process of "picking nits", I would actually weigh in that a m #5 does exist, but would caution anyone from writing it down for others to see lest they think one is a bit "touched in the head"
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Haven't had a chance to get on for a while.
Anyway, Musallio asked about an "xm #5"
Let's take a look.
Cm is C Eb G. If we were to raise the 5th (G) a half-step we get C Eb G#. What is another name for a G#? Ab. C Eb Ab is an Ab major chord in first inversion. Technically there is no Cm #5 since it is the same as an Ab major.
But, as I have thought about it, there are some contexts where a Cm #5 would make more sense than Ab.
In major, we've all heard the harmonic cliche -- C C+ C6. The analogous minor pattern would be -- Cm Ab/C Cm6 (listen to the James Bond Theme). Though the Ab/C is technically what we would call it, it is acting like the major version. The melodic line is ascending chromatically -- G - G# - A -- over a static C bass, which is clearer functionally than -- G - Ab - A.
That's one of the problems with the convention for naming chords. They name discrete combinations of notes but do not always indicate the harmonic function when two or more chords are combined. That has been a problem with our entire system of notation once music became more and more chromatic.
And [as he goes off on a tangent] there are instances, particularly in some types of modulation from one key to another, where a note or chord enters as one note or chord and leaves as its enharmonic equivalent. An example would be to start out as if we are doing our musical cliche -- C C+ C6 ... except The C+ (and its G# melody) leaves as an Ab+ (with and Ab melody) followed by Dbm7 Gbx7 CbM7 (we have just modulated from C major to Cb major. [End of tangent].
So, in the process of "picking nits", I would actually weigh in that a m #5 does exist, but would caution anyone from writing it down for others to see lest they think one is a bit "touched in the head"
Yet another rspindy insightful revelation(http://ctasa.freeforums.org/files/ctasa/smilies/thumb.gif)
This whole stuff sounds wise.
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Cadd9 C,D,E,G
E7(#9-#5) G#,C,D,G
CMaj7 Sec..Inversion G,B,C,E
As you will see all the Major7ths chords will b in second inversion
and I skip Db because I know yall should know that one...
Dadd9 D,E,F#A
F#7(#9-#5) Bb, D,E,A
DMaj7 A,C#,D,F#
Ebadd9 Eb,F,G,Bb
G7(#9-#5) B,Eb,F,Bb
EbMaj7 Bb,D,Eb,G
Eadd9 E,F#,Ab,B
Ab7(#9-#5) C,E,F#,B
EMaj7 B,D#,E,G#
Fadd9 F,G,A,C
A7(#9-#5) C#,F,G,C
FMaj7 C,E, F,A
F#add9 F#,Ab,Bb,C#
Bb7(#9-#5) D, F#,Ab,C#
F#Maj7 C#,F,F#,A#
Gadd9 G,A,B,D
B7(#9-#5) Eb,G,A,D
GMaj7 D,F#,G,B
Abadd9 Ab,Bb ,C,Eb
C7(#9-#5) E,G#,Bb,D#
AbMaj7 Eb,G#,Bb,D#
Aadd9 A,B,C#,E
C#7(#9-#5) F,A,B,E
AMaj7 E,G#,A,C#
Bbadd9 Bb,C,D,F
D7(#9-#5) F#,Bb,C,F
BbMaj7 F,A,Bb,D
Badd9 B,C#,Eb,F#
Eb7(#9-#5) G,B,Db,F
BMaj7 F#,A#,B,D#
hopefully these will help I use all 7th(#9-#5) chords in them to show you how they can b used...Hpe it blesses someone....