LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: tek_uk on April 07, 2008, 03:37:38 PM
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Hi All,
I'm still trying to learn the musical zip code (7-3-6-2-5-1).
I noticed however that sometimes the 3 is major and sometimes minor (III or iii) so was wondering if someone can explain when you would one or the other?
Thanks
Laurent
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I'm no musical guru but as far as gospel music is concerned, i have RARELY seen the III chord used as a minor chord. Its usually some sort of altered chord like a IIImaj7(#9 #5). I am not that great at explaining stuff, hopefully someone else will be able to explain it to you. I just change it to a major or minor depending on how i feel.
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well, in terms of theory i thought only the 1, 4 and 5 could be major in a major progression.
It is true that III (maj chord) sounds good i just want to understand the theory behind it... ?/?
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well, in terms of theory i thought only the 1, 4 and 5 could be major in a major progression.
It is true that III (maj chord) sounds good i just want to understand the theory behind it... ?/?
Well the II, III and VI can also be used as a secondary dominant. This basically means you can turn them into a major. However it only works in specific songs. You can't just decide that you want to play a major II where a minor III is called for.
I'm not that great at explaining stuff. Sorry.
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You change them if the song calls for it. Or you can change it depending on the melody note the singing is singing.
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Hi All,
I'm still trying to learn the musical zip code (7-3-6-2-5-1).
I noticed however that sometimes the 3 is major and sometimes minor (III or iii) so was wondering if someone can explain when you would one or the other?
Thanks
Laurent
The III chord (as well as just about any chord root in a given key) may be either Maj or minor (in use, generally a dominant 7 -- IIIx7 or in Cmajor an E7, or minor 7 --- IIIm7 or in C major an Em7).
Only one situation requires one over the other -- if the melody is the 3 of the IIIx7 (G# for an E7 chord.) A the b3 of an IIIm7 (G nat. for an Em7) would conflict in a bad way. Since, as melody G# would be the highest note, the G nat. would be a min 9th below (an octave and a half-step). The min 9th is generally avoided between two members of a chord except the actual root and an actual b9. The reason is that this very dissonant interval wants to resolve into an octave (G#/Ab - G). In the process, the G nat. will try to assert itself as the real root (not the E) of the chord creating ambiguity. That does not mean that you may not find situations where it will actually work for you, just that until you have found those places, you will be safe in avoiding it.
If the melody were the b3 of the chord (G nat. for our III chord) the most frequent choice would be the IIIm7 (Em7). In some situations, you can actually use the IIIx7 also. With the b3 of the chord as melody, this would create a IIIx7 #9, that very bluesy chord. In this case, your taste and the character of the music is your guide -- do you want it to sound bluesy?
If the melody is on any note but the 3rd, then you can experiment with both IIIx7 and IIIm7 (if the melody is not on the 5, you can also try IIIm7b5). In all of these cases, it comes down to the sound that you want to convey, the character of the piece, how much tension you want at that point, etc. Because of the possibility of several qualities available, you can use this to help build an arrangement. You might start with tamer or more standard harmony and as the arrangement progresses, introduce some of the other possibilities. The more notes that are not part of the diatonic scale of the key of the piece, the more chromatic it will sound, which can help to build excitement.
This case is also frequently true of the VI and the II chords and sometimes with the VII chord (which is usually m7b5).
Always remember, music is an art. As such there are few "rules". There are practices that have been done in the past and there are certain characteristics for different styles, but there is no law that says a certain chord has to be major or minor or have only notes that belong to the overall key of the piece. The "rules" are starting points. When something goes against the "rules", analyze it to see if you can see why one was chosen over another (melody, harmony, rhythm, etc.). Try different things and see how it sounds (such as IIIx7 for an indicated IIIm7, etc.)
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One piece of advice that may save you a lot of time. All you really need to know is: 7-3-6-2-5-1. Thats it. In reality people make minors, majors, majors dominants, etc.... This is where the ear will have to come in.
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a 3 can be either a minor or major; however, normally in the scale degree it is usually a minor but only way the 3 chord to be major is by playing a one chord in the first inversion with a three bass for example. in the key of C it is C/CEG but if you use it as the three it would be E/EGC that about the only way it will be a major. but it depends on style.
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a 3 can be either a minor or major; however, normally in the scale degree it is usually a minor but only way the 3 chord to be major is by playing a one chord in the first inversion with a three bass for example. in the key of C it is C/CEG but if you use it as the three it would be E/EGC that about the only way it will be a major. but it depends on style.
Actually that's minor.
E-G-C = Emin #5
If you're in a major key, then your iii chord will be minor, unless you alter it. If you're in a minor key, your III chord will be major, again, unless you alter it. These are definite rules because there is more than one major key and more than one minor key, so it really depends on your key signature.
If you listen to jazz pianists like Joe Sample, Alex Bugnon, Jeff Lorber, and Russell Ferante, then you'll hear them do substitutions a lot. Sometimes they'll play something completely out of key in passing. Gospel musicians do it a lot too, but not as much.
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Once again rspindy, u came through for a fellow LGMer. Good lookin out doc!!!
but only way the 3 chord to be major is by playing a one chord in the first inversion with a three bass for example. in the key of C it is C/CEG but if you use it as the three it would be E/EGC that about the only way it will be a major. but it depends on style.
You do realize that even though u have a 3 in the bass, if it is apart of the 1 chord, u still have a 1 chord, right? The only way u can have a 3 chord is if the 3 is the root of the chord. Anything other than that is an inversion.
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Just to give a bit of context, this is where i saw an example of the 3 chords being either a iii or a III.
in the first example (Fmin7), it is a minor while in the 7-3-6-2-5 (EMaj) then it is a major chord.
Since there isn't any melody i couldn't work out why. So i guess it is a case of altering the 3 chords to achieve a certain mood or tone?
http://www.hearandplay.com/928pwxt87.html (http://www.hearandplay.com/928pwxt87.html)
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Once again rspindy, u came through for a fellow LGMer. Good lookin out doc!!!
You do realize that even though u have a 3 in the bass, if it is apart of the 1 chord, u still have a 1 chord, right? The only way u can have a 3 chord is if the 3 is the root of the chord. Anything other than that is an inversion.
You know i've been messing around with starting off with the 3 bass over the I chord. I just love that sound, i think it sounds very gospel-ly :).
I've been bored with the same old root bass and have been trying to use different bass notes over the chords i play.
I play chords primarily and don't do a lot of runs so i am trying to use inversions that move chromatically rather than skipping around the board.
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You know i've been messing around with starting off with the 3 bass over the I chord. I just love that sound, i think it sounds very gospel-ly :).
I've been bored with the same old root bass and have been trying to use different bass notes over the chords i play.
I play chords primarily and don't do a lot of runs so i am trying to use inversions that move chromatically rather than skipping around the board.
Usually I start off with the 6/1 chord for the "gospel-ly" flavor. I like the "pull/ tension/ dissonance..?" in it more than the 3/ 1chord offers, but that 1 has a nice feel to it too.
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You know i've been messing around with starting off with the 3 bass over the I chord. I just love that sound, i think it sounds very gospel-ly :).
I've been bored with the same old root bass and have been trying to use different bass notes over the chords i play.
I'm telling u man, that bass note makes all the difference in the world. I myself have been trying to think of different ways to end songs on 4. It just sounds so majestic and powerful to me.
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I'm telling u man, that bass note makes all the difference in the world. I myself have been trying to think of different ways to end songs on 4. It just sounds so majestic and powerful to me.
True that, That's the perfect word to use..
Really majestic 8)
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just to point something out... in most cases.. and in ALL cases where it's followed by vi, III is not classified as III, it's classified as V/vi. function is everything. that G# (in C) is a leading tone to the A in a minor (vi), making it a secondary dominant as someone above me said.
most generally speaking iii is minor. and furthermore, iii is less common than I6, when talking about a chord with the 3rd scale degree in the bass.
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just to point something out... in most cases.. and in ALL cases where it's followed by vi, III is not classified as III, it's classified as V/vi. function is everything. that G# (in C) is a leading tone to the A in a minor (vi), making it a secondary dominant as someone above me said.
most generally speaking iii is minor. and furthermore, iii is less common than I6, when talking about a chord with the 3rd scale degree in the bass.
& that's a Reality Check!! ;D
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just to point something out... in most cases.. and in ALL cases where it's followed by vi, III is not classified as III, it's classified as V/vi. function is everything. that G# (in C) is a leading tone to the A in a minor (vi), making it a secondary dominant as someone above me said.
most generally speaking iii is minor. and furthermore, iii is less common than I6, when talking about a chord with the 3rd scale degree in the bass.
And there u have it. That's some real theory for ya, LOL.
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You do realize that even though u have a 3 in the bass, if it is apart of the 1 chord, u still have a 1 chord, right? The only way u can have a 3 chord is if the 3 is the root of the chord. Anything other than that is an inversion.
Just a word of caution here. The above is reasonably true of triads, once you get in chords of 4 or more notes, the idea of inversion gets a little trickier.
For example, the notes C E G A, is it a C6 chord or an Am7 in first inversion? Or the notes G B D E, is it G6 or Em7 in first inversion? The question actually becomes "which is the true root of the chord?" This actually gets down to how the chord functions (and that to can be a bit gray).
Another one from the old theory days is the "Tonic six-four (I chord in second inversion)/Dominant" progression. Is the Tonic actually a 2nd inversion I (G C E) or is it an incomplete V13 (G [B D F A] C E) with the C and E are embellishments of the B and D? Try this, play the progression as triads:
G / G C E
G / G B D
C / E G C.
Now simply add an F (the 7th) to the left hand:
G F / G C E
G F / G B D
C / E G A C.
It's a little spicier, but otherwise does not affect the overall effect or character of the progression, yet the G - F bass makes it decidedly some form of Gx7 [an interval of a 7th above the bass pretty well establishes the bass as the root] as opposed to some form of C chord.
One other instance that might show that all is not what it seems. Try this:
C E / G B D F# [note, the C - E is best as a 10th (an octave and a 3rd)]
C E / G B C E
B G / F# B D
Now try it again with G D in place of the B G of the last chord.
Is the first chord a CMaj7 #11 (C E G B D F#) or a D13 (D F# [A] C E G B) in 3rd inversion?
Now, Change the L.H. C E to D C (add the A if you like). This time there is no denial that it is some form of Dx7.
Dx7 to G is a natural V - I progression. In the first one above, with C as root we have a IV - I plagal progression (which is entirely valid - the "Amen" progression) but with it containing the same notes as the D13, it is a bit ambiguous, particularly since it has a stronger pull to I than a normal IV - I. It is sort of a cross between the two. (it would also make a great choral "Amen" in 6 part harmony).
I will say, if I were to write it in chord symbols, I would opt for CMaj#11 - C Maj7 - G Maj 7 as opposed to D13/C ... since it is clearer to read. But because it has a bit of the V effect, I realize that it may be possible as a substitute for a V - I cadence in certain instances and for certain effects.
I bring this up to just caution against stating too many "absolutes" in music. Not all is as it sometimes seems. And some "absolutes" become a source of confusion, particularly when often, so little music fits into the "rule". I remember when first being taught about "Sonata Form" and all of the parts that a sonata has and how they are put together. In 40 years, I don't think that I have ever played a sonata that fit the "Sonata Form." In fact, the rules as the had been taught in the past would actually deny most of the Sonatas of Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven as actually being Sonatas! You mean these guys didn't know how to write a sonata?
And then there were the classes on "Fugue Form" (fugue is not a form -- it's a way of writing music) and if one were to follow those rules, one would have to say that Bach maybe wrote one or two fugues since most of them don't fit the description!
But that is the beauty of music. When you realize that we have only 12 possible roots upon which to build the entire harmonic system and a finite number of possibilities to combine the notes above the roots into harmonies, and only 12 notes upon which to build melodies, it is almost mind boggling to realize how much music of such variety has been created in the western world over nearly 1 1/2 millenniums, and that so much music has been built on the same basic harmonic system that was in practice before Bach, nearly 400 years ago.
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Just a word of caution here. The above is reasonably true of triads, once you get in chords of 4 or more notes, the idea of inversion gets a little trickier.
Yeah, I was mainly talking about triad chords. But, you're right about everything else. Good looking out!!! :D
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For the original poster - when to use a iii and when a III?
One possibly helpful way is to think in terms of "tension" and "release". As you are playing, you build up tension (say V7) and then you resolve (release) it (V7->I). The way I think of it, "release" chords are chords you can "rest" on, and spend a beat or two on. "Tension" chords are the ones you want to resolve straight away.
So, at least for me, the iii is usually a rest/release chord, the III (most ofter III#5#9) is a tension chord, which you usually want to move away from, to go to the vi (which is the relative fourth).
Example:
"Rest iii" - beginning of "Anointing, Fall on Me"
E/BDG Anoin iii - rest - note how you spend two beats here
A/ACE ting vi - rest
"Tension III" - beginning of "As the Deer"
CG/CEG As the I - rest
BEb/ADG deer VII#5#9 - tension - one beat and resolve to the relative fourth (III)
EAb/CE pan.. III#5 - tension - one beat and resolve to the relative fourth (vi)
/D teth
AEA/C for... vi - release
Of course you can mix this up as much as you want.
Hope this is helpful.
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For the original poster - when to use a iii and when a III?
One possibly helpful way is to think in terms of "tension" and "release". As you are playing, you build up tension (say V7) and then you resolve (release) it (V7->I). The way I think of it, "release" chords are chords you can "rest" on, and spend a beat or two on. "Tension" chords are the ones you want to resolve straight away.
So, at least for me, the iii is usually a rest/release chord, the III (most ofter III#5#9) is a tension chord, which you usually want to move away from, to go to the vi (which is the relative fourth).
Example:
"Rest iii" - beginning of "Anointing, Fall on Me"
E/BDG Anoin iii - rest - note how you spend two beats here
A/ACE ting vi - rest
"Tension III" - beginning of "As the Deer"
CG/CEG As the I - rest
BEb/ADG deer VII#5#9 - tension - one beat and resolve to the relative fourth (III)
EAb/CE pan.. III#5 - tension - one beat and resolve to the relative fourth (vi)
/D teth
AEA/C for... vi - release
Of course you can mix this up as much as you want.
Hope this is helpful.
Very neat elio (http://ctasa.freeforums.org/files/ctasa/smilies/thumb.gif)
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Just a word of caution here. The above is reasonably true of triads, once you get in chords of 4 or more notes, the idea of inversion gets a little trickier.
For example, the notes C E G A, is it a C6 chord or an Am7 in first inversion? Or the notes G B D E, is it G6 or Em7 in first inversion? The question actually becomes "which is the true root of the chord?" This actually gets down to how the chord functions (and that to can be a bit gray).
Another one from the old theory days is the "Tonic six-four (I chord in second inversion)/Dominant" progression. Is the Tonic actually a 2nd inversion I (G C E) or is it an incomplete V13 (G [B D F A] C E) with the C and E are embellishments of the B and D? Try this, play the progression as triads:
G / G C E
G / G B D
C / E G C.
Now simply add an F (the 7th) to the left hand:
G F / G C E
G F / G B D
C / E G A C.
It's a little spicier, but otherwise does not affect the overall effect or character of the progression, yet the G - F bass makes it decidedly some form of Gx7 [an interval of a 7th above the bass pretty well establishes the bass as the root] as opposed to some form of C chord.
One other instance that might show that all is not what it seems. Try this:
C E / G B D F# [note, the C - E is best as a 10th (an octave and a 3rd)]
C E / G B C E
B G / F# B D
Now try it again with G D in place of the B G of the last chord.
Is the first chord a CMaj7 #11 (C E G B D F#) or a D13 (D F# [A] C E G B) in 3rd inversion?
Now, Change the L.H. C E to D C (add the A if you like). This time there is no denial that it is some form of Dx7.
Dx7 to G is a natural V - I progression. In the first one above, with C as root we have a IV - I plagal progression (which is entirely valid - the "Amen" progression) but with it containing the same notes as the D13, it is a bit ambiguous, particularly since it has a stronger pull to I than a normal IV - I. It is sort of a cross between the two. (it would also make a great choral "Amen" in 6 part harmony).
I will say, if I were to write it in chord symbols, I would opt for CMaj#11 - C Maj7 - G Maj 7 as opposed to D13/C ... since it is clearer to read. But because it has a bit of the V effect, I realize that it may be possible as a substitute for a V - I cadence in certain instances and for certain effects.
I bring this up to just caution against stating too many "absolutes" in music. Not all is as it sometimes seems. And some "absolutes" become a source of confusion, particularly when often, so little music fits into the "rule". I remember when first being taught about "Sonata Form" and all of the parts that a sonata has and how they are put together. In 40 years, I don't think that I have ever played a sonata that fit the "Sonata Form." In fact, the rules as the had been taught in the past would actually deny most of the Sonatas of Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven as actually being Sonatas! You mean these guys didn't know how to write a sonata?
And then there were the classes on "Fugue Form" (fugue is not a form -- it's a way of writing music) and if one were to follow those rules, one would have to say that Bach maybe wrote one or two fugues since most of them don't fit the description!
But that is the beauty of music. When you realize that we have only 12 possible roots upon which to build the entire harmonic system and a finite number of possibilities to combine the notes above the roots into harmonies, and only 12 notes upon which to build melodies, it is almost mind boggling to realize how much music of such variety has been created in the western world over nearly 1 1/2 millenniums, and that so much music has been built on the same basic harmonic system that was in practice before Bach, nearly 400 years ago.
The best advice I have ever heard about music theory is.
Music theory is what music is, except when it isn't.
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Music theory is what music is, except when it isn't.
You Said it Maestro
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The best advice I have ever heard about music theory is.
Music theory is what music is, except when it isn't.
WOW, I like that!!! :D
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Music theory is what music is, except when it isn't.
You Said it Maestro
Indeed!!!
Good 1..(I shuld memorize that & say it whenever appropriate 8)
Which also makes me think of starting a thread of "Who Said That?!" here on LGM..this will be the 1st 1 ;D