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Gospel Instruments => Organ Room => Topic started by: dkmusic22 on October 15, 2004, 02:47:15 PM
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Why do you think we have so many homosexual playing interuments and singing in the church :? . I know the pastors be knowing but yet they still let them play :? . I went to this one church and the organtis was gay. The pastors both knew that he was still gay. Well to make a long story short, the guy ends up raping a little 9 year old boy :x :( :cry: . He is in jail now. But I belive that if the pastor pray the devil out of him that ,that would not have happen. God can do anything but fail. So let me know your though on it.
P.S. Pray for me as I pray for you. :D :wink:
God Bless. :D
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I strongly believe that homosexuality should not be tolerated any where especially the church. The word of god is the most important thing in the church and the music is 2nd. It plays a huge part in the church and God doesnt want for sin to enter in any kindof way. I know a guy who Ive played the drums for who was gay and he did what you have to do: fast and pray for deliverance. And I believe that god delivered him. So if he could do it for him, he can do it for anybody!
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If God has blessed you with a gift or talent you should use it for his glory. Homosexuality IS NOT of God. This is just the same as liars, cheaters, people of witch craft and manipulation etc. If we strip the offices of the church from sinners or saints with flaws the church would be empty. There is no one perfect and I believe your deliverance can come through praises whether it be singing, playing an instrument or what have you. God works in mysterious ways. Let us remember that there is none perfect but the Father. It is our goal to be just like him. When Jesus was walking the Earth,as a physical man, He didnt turn the lost and unsaved away. He embraced them. That is what we must do, and teach them the ways of Holiness. So many times I see people being turned away from churches because they have thorns in their flesh that are looked down upon than others. If you look in churches today there are fornicators in the choir adulters in the pulpit. Liars in the pews, and gossipers at the door. It is time for God's people to be real. We need to extend open arms to those who are bound in ungodly ways. That Homosexual could be delivered through playing for God. You never know what God has planned. He can move when, where, and how He wants to. God Bless!!
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What would you say if the question had been;
Should a practicing sinner be permitted to hold a leader's or servant's position in church? Can a practicing sinner be called SAVED? What did John say about this? What did Paul say? Didn't Jesus command, "Go and sin no more." name a sin; stealing, adultry, lying, hate, blaspheming God's word. go ahead, name whatever is in your heart.
A practicing or unrepentant sinner has no business being up there, speaking, teaching, playing music, singing, what ever. The New Testiment is very clear on this. No matter what YOU may think, it is clear, a practicing homosexual is an unrepentant sinner. Don't bother arguing with me. Just try to argue with God's word.
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I would rather have just a couple of holy-ghost filled believer's than 100 unsaved trying to operate as a Christian. This thing about nobody's perfect is nothing more than an excuse for people to stay in their mess. And for that matter are we not to be striving for perfection. Yes I know that Jesus Christ was the only perfect man who ever walked the face of this earth, but if I confess that Jesus Christ lives in me what does that make me. The flesh is what is imperfect, the Bible says that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. I said all of that to say this; If a person is not on the up and up, rather sure nough saved and living for the Lord whole-heartedly, they should not be holding any kind of office in the church. In the old testament there were certain ones set apart for the sole purpose of cleaning the temple. Any and everybody don't need to be doing whatever they want to do in the house of God. Spirits are real and they will and do transfer. Please Saints of God don't be deceived.
God Bless
Min. Chavon Washington
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well the title of this thread was What is wrong today?
What i think is wrong today Now this is just what I think.
I think we have this problem because of the Lack of Prayer in the churches. when you look at the Old Church and the old mothers the believed in the Power of Prayer. I mean they Prayed until they prayed out of them selves prayed until they were ugly.
Im not saying that there still wont be a lil mess in the church but Prayer will help alot of the Mess to end.
On this homosexual thing. Is it alrght to let a gay musician play.
my answer NO.
now this doesn't mean turn your back on them because of there situation. they need encouragement to seek god and deliverance but they do not need to be Playing in any service. they are not the only ines who are platying in the service and need to be sat down. this one musician Whom the Music departmen paid Has children all over the Sacramento. but that aint stopping him from playing. alot of time we don't know the lifestyle a person is living out side of Church. I know people in the church who you would never have expected to be Gay But when i got to know them i found out some things that really distubed my spirit.
i know people who I would have never expected to be a liar but
when i got to know them...
so.
now that i think about it I am off the subject of the original post. lol
the question was Why do you think we have so many homosexual playing intsruments and singing in the church?
i anwered that but i got off subject toward the end. well i done wrote too much to be deleting so
I'll Holla
Be blessed
Much Love
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Come to think about it, new greater love, I really didn't answer the original question either: What is wrong with today?
I agree with you, the Bible says that some things only come by fasting and praying. In the "old church", it wasn't that homosexuality wasn't around the older saints wouldn't allow it. If they couldn't physically do anything about it they knew that God could and the most important thing is that they knew how to get in touch with Him. We have pretty much stopped praying. We have become a microwave, drive-thru church and feel like we need to talk to the Lord only when we have a desperate need for something or when we get in trouble. God is not pleased!! Also, I agree with you on the fact that we can't just turn our back on the homosexual. For that matter we can't turn our back on the liar, cheater, backbitter, etc. They are sick and need a physician.(Just the ones Jesus came to set free). Well we know that He is no longer here in the flesh, but yet He Is. And if we don't show Godly Character toward them at ALL times they will never be introduced to the only one that can change their situations and lifestyles. Gotta Go. Be Blessed
Min. Chavon
"HATE THE SIN, LOVE THE SINNER"
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amen 1st Lady
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NO! NO! NO!
they need to 1st repent of their sins and get cleaned up b4 doing anything 4 God. otherwise we'd make a mockery of the gospel by allowing such an abomination to take place in God's house. the problem 2day is that the church has no standards. we let peolpe do what they want and say what they want and still have them thinking their saved. i could care less about how well some1 plays if u're not living right because any1 that has a position in church when their in the forefront has 2 be held accountable 4 their actions. God sees and hears all! churches 2day are so worried about increasing membership that we've gotten away 4rm the true, unchanging word of God.
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OMG I Couldn't have said it better Myself
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Amen drummerboy25, todays church has to realize that God does have a standard and He is not going to meet us at our standard we have to meet Him at his. His standard is Holiness, and Holiness IS NOT A DENOMINATION IT IS A WAY OF LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Without it, we shall NOT see God. That's the Word!!!!!!!!
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Amen to that 1st Lady. :D it's just sad that most people think otherwise.???
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I think so many people think otherwise because the Church sometimes won't deal with this issue. They see homosexuals who are "nice people" very gifted and talented. So sometimes people are willing to compromise standards so they can have the best musician or singer in the area, or be friends with someone who is influencial politically and is gay. SOmetimes we don't want to be seen as close-minded or behind the times. I know it sounds silly, but some people tussle with those issues!
We can't let ourselves be bribed, folks. If we have no music, then we make music with our hands and feet. You are right, homosexuals should not be used in public worship service. If it means that we are called ignorant or bigoted, then we should remember Jesus was called much worse than that!
We have let go of standards, and it is getting scary. I recently saw a book out that was entitled . . . well, I won't say the title because I don't want LGM to get sued, but it was completely satanic. I was flabbergasted that this was on public TV! We just need to cry for a discernment and for courage to live out what we know is right.
Be Blessed . . .
BBoy
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Amen and amen. You guys are hitting it right were it hurts, in the gutt. There are too many compromises in the "church" period. 1st Lady I couldn't agree with you more, I would rather be around 10 folks that are right than 100 folks just making noise. Sit down until you have been redeemed. Get it right. As long as they are allowed to live this lifestyle and play they're going to continue to do so. God wants us to be real. And I also believe Moses would not have wrote Gen. 19.
Prov. 3:32 says God hates a perverse lifestyle. So why are we tolerating it in the church? Like Bboy said, we can clap our hands and stomp our feet instead of compromising the church.
Joy
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First, I believe homosexuality/lesbianism is wrong, goes against The Word of God and, by its definition, is an abomination.
In short, I am totally against homosexuality
That being said.
What would you say if the question had been;
Should a practicing sinner be permitted to hold a leader's or servant's position in church?
To answer that question, I would have to ask to define the term "practicing sinner"
Again, I am totally against homosexuality
A practicing or unrepentant sinner has no business being up there, ....... playing music, singing, what ever.
Thats an Interesting statement, becuase the Bible the I was looking at says..
"Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! 4 Praise him with timbrel and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! 5 Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! 6 Let EVERYTHING THAT BREATHES praise the LORD! Praise the LORD! "
Again, I am totally against homosexuality
NO! NO! NO!
they need to 1st repent of their sins and get cleaned up b4 doing anything 4 God. otherwise we'd make a mockery of the gospel by allowing such an abomination to take place in God's house. the problem 2day is that the church has no standards. we let peolpe do what they want and say what they want and still have them thinking their saved.
Again very intersting that we must get ourselfves "cleaned up" before we can do anything for God. Maybe I just need to get a better understanding as to how one would get themself "cleaned up". I didnt think I could clean myself up. I thought that was the work of God to do and his process for doing that is just that---His process.
Again, I am totally against homosexuality
I guess Im having trouble defrentiating (sp) gays from drug dealers, spouse cheaters, friday nite drunks or your nice, gifted voice, sweet to everyone fornicating, habitual liar. Maybe some people can easily seperate one from the other because one is more visible.
Again, I am totally against homosexuality but Im also against any other form of unrighteous acts. So, if there is no respect of person, would it not make sense to treat all the same?
Either embrace all of them fully; or,
cast them out fully?
Whichever you decide to do, make it apply across the board and not just to those who are more visible with thier sins.
Just at thought, and again, I am totally against homosexuality.
DCW
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the only reason i'm not sure is because i know that the just as well as the unjust have gifts. furthermore, God knows all and sees all. in this case we choose to sit the homosexual down...but what about the musician that commits adultery in his heart with the women and men of God...or the one that sneaks a drink or a smoke when no one is looking. is it fair that the we sit the one with the open sin down, and not the other? besides, we all should work out our own soul salvation and pray for that brother or sister that they may be delivered through the music they play. i'm going to read the other replies...maybe i'll come across something insightful in this situation.
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I would have to differ -
James 2:9- says, "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin and are convinced of the law of transgression. For who-soever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, also said do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Also, no one came clean up themselves, only God can do that. The word of God also tells us that you can sit under the word of God and wax cold. Meaning, turn over to a rebubate state of mind. You won't even see yourself (after awhile) as a sinner. That is why, someone would have to sit you down until the Lord (by the showing of your fruits) has redeemed you.
Joy
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essence01,
With all respect, I have to disagree with you. First of all, the unjust do not have gifts they have talent. And they cannot and will not be delivered from the music that they play because whatever spirit they are harboring at the time that they are playing that same spirit will be released through their music.
and to dcweats,
You quited the scripture in Psalms that says let everything that hath breath praise the Lord. I am not trying to start a whole nother issue here but If I may share with you something that God shared with me.
As a Praise and Worship leader as well as Minister of Music and Minister of the Gospel, I began to ask God why is it so hard to get people to Praise You when your word says to let everything that hath breath praise You. He said to me, "What is breath?" He took me back to Genesis. God created Adam then he formed him out of the dust of the earth. Adam did not become a living soul until God Breathed the Breath of Life into him. The Breath that God breathed into Adam was His Spirit. There are a lot of people, even "church folk" that are walking around DEAD BECAUSE THEY LACK THE SPIRIT OF GOD. This is why everybody cannot praise Him.
What is so sad though is the fact that we continue to allow the sinner to believe that when they come to church and leave out of the church in the same state that they came in, that they have pleased God just because they came to church. The devil is tricky and cunning, Please Saints of God don't fall into his trap.
Minister Chavon
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essence01,
With all respect, I have to disagree with you. First of all, the unjust do not have gifts they have talent. And they cannot and will not be delivered from the music that they play because whatever spirit they are harboring at the time that they are playing that same spirit will be released through their music.
and to dcweats,
You quited the scripture in Psalms that says let everything that hath breath praise the Lord. I am not trying to start a whole nother issue here but If I may share with you something that God shared with me.
As a Praise and Worship leader as well as Minister of Music and Minister of the Gospel, I began to ask God why is it so hard to get people to Praise You when your word says to let everything that hath breath praise You. He said to me, "What is breath?" He took me back to Genesis. God created Adam then he formed him out of the dust of the earth. Adam did not become a living soul until God Breathed the Breath of Life into him. The Breath that God breathed into Adam was His Spirit. There are a lot of people, even "church folk" that are walking around DEAD BECAUSE THEY LACK THE SPIRIT OF GOD. This is why everybody cannot praise Him.
What is so sad though is the fact that we continue to allow the sinner to believe that when they come to church and leave out of the church in the same state that they came in, that they have pleased God just because they came to church. The devil is tricky and cunning, Please Saints of God don't fall into his trap.
Minister Chavon
Hi Minister Chavon.
I am not totally sure that I have an accurate understanding of what you are saying so, before I comment, I thought I would just ask for clarification.
Are you saying that God broke it down to you this way?
The word "Breath" could mean "His Spirit" and therefore when Psalms reads 'let everthing that has breath praise the Lord" that might mean everyone who has the Spirit of the Lord down inside them" and not necessarily everything that is breathing or that is living?
Is this kind of what you are saying?
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dcweats,
yes this is what I meant and I really appreciate you for seeking clarification before jumping the gun. I have had a few that really didn't understand what I was trying to say rather they refused to understand the point, not that everyone has to agree but the fact that you are willing to hear what somene else has to share.
Mini. Chavon
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dcweats,
yes this is what I meant and I really appreciate you for seeking clarification before jumping the gun. I have had a few that really didn't understand what I was trying to say rather they refused to understand the point, not that everyone has to agree but the fact that you are willing to hear what somene else has to share.
Mini. Chavon
No Problem. I kind of thought that was what you were saying but still wanted to be sure. Cant say that I completely agree with it, but it is an interesting interpretation nonetheless. Something to think about.
Thanks
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mmmmkay....i understand the idea of the spirit harboring concept. so..question: is this why the majority of the christian churches seem to be sunday morning only believers? when you look at other faiths..primarily in the middle east...they moreso live everyday according to their faith. so, is it safe to assume that most ministers/pastors are harboring negative spirits throughout the body of Christ?
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Essence01,
It would be very safe to say that many ministers and pastors do harbor negative spirits rather evil spirits that are not of God. The biggest problem I think though is that we only assume this. This is why it is so important to pray for discernment. The Bible tells us that even satan has minister's and they are transformed into ministers of light. The only way to know the difference is by the spirit of God. I believe, too, that the reason why so many are only Sunday Morning Christians is not because of the minister or Pastor, but it says a whole lot about How much or how bad do they want to experience Christ. How much of the Word do they really desire.
Be Blessed,
Minister Chavon
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A Church should excommunicate a homosexual who is openly gay. He may lust after the boys or other men in the congregation and victimize or cause them to sin. Both the Old and New Testaments in the Bible condemn homosexuality. We should not allow an openly gay church musician to think that everything's okay, because it's not.('8O')
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is that fair when the house of the Lord is the hospital for the sin-sick? it's a healing station, correct? if everyone in the house of the Lord was living right, then what purpose does it really serve? shouldn't the homosexual, and the drunk, and the adulterer, and the smoker, and the gossiper, and the whoremonger, and the liar, and the thief, and so on...have the right to the choice of sitting under the word of God? Now...if that person is going through the congregation "turning people out", then, yes, that becomes an issue to address, but i don't think that person should be turned away from the church if that just happens to be their lifestyle. does your church excommunicate the liars and fornicators? after thinking about this, i agree with 1st lady about sinners who knowingly continue to sin. they shouldn't fill positions in the church that assist in ministry or ushering in the presence of God because of the spirits/demons they may carry. i have some deeper questions on that issue, but that would deviate from this thought behind this thread.
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By no means am I saying to excommunicate these people completely from the church. There would be no point in the Church if that were the case. Essence01, you are correct as far as the church is supposed to be a hospital for the sin-sick. My whole point is simply if we know the lifestyle of a person they should not hold position in the church until they sit under the Word and the Anointing enough to make a decision to change. And if we don't know the lifestyle pray before placing someone in position.
Min. Chavon
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1st lady, i now agree with you. Pray for me. Peace and Blessings
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What the scriptures say is:
Ephesians 5:3 "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."
Ephesians 5:8 "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light" (If someone has set their mind on serving God and being delivered, then they must flee from the thoughts and situations that caused them to stumble, and not continue being immoral under the excuse that 'God is in the process of delivering me.' ").
Ephesians 5:5-7 "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them."
1 Timothy 3:9-10 "They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons."(People should first be totally delivered before being given positions of importance in a Church).
1 Timothy 3:14-15 "...I am writing you these instructions so that, ... , you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
2 Samuel 22:29 "the LORD turns my darkness into light."
Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Luke 11:35 "See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. "
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
John 12:46 "I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. "
1 Corinthians 4:5 "wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."
2 Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
1 John 1:5 "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. "
Hebrews 10:26-31 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"and again, "The Lord will judge his people."It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. "
1 John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
Now, I am not being judgmental or anything. We are all sinners. Just telling what the scriptures have to say. But that does not mean we should find excuses to keep sinning or leading contrary to The Word, because God completely delivers anyone who honestly asks Him. Remember Saul? He used to go around killing people but when he got saved, he never looked back or said things like "I used to kill 50 people per day but now I am gradually reducing the number and today I killed only 10, tomorrow only 9, etc...." No, he killed no more! Same story for Zacchaeus,etc. Jesus welcomed the sinners and delivered them totally and instantly, and ordered them to "Go and sin No More", and their lives were never the same again from that day onwards. God delivers totally and instantly(He does not stall), and it then remains up to us to stand strong and flee (like Joseph from Potiphar's wife) from anything that may cause us to sin or stumble. We are saved by our faith and not by our works, and God says that He desires Obedience and not sacrifice, so just beating the drums or whatever else is not the prescription.The best way to praise God is to first and foremost obey Him and have a very close relationship with Him(check out John 8:12 and 1 John 3:6 above), and then the rest will follow.
Be blessed.
S.I.C.
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I agree with drummerboy 25 and 1st Lady. God requires holiness from everyone who claims to be saved. I do not think that a homosexual should be playing what example would that set for the unbeliever? They might say well I guess I am okay if this person is playing and they are like that. We have to set an example for believers and especially unbelievers that might be in our church or visiting. They need to get cleaned up first playing an instrument is not going to clean them up. You have many musicians that they just play and when they are finished they leave. They only come to church to play and they are not saved or living the life so playing has not helped them changed. They need to repent and be cleaned up first and then they can do things for God. I just do not feel you can be doing things for God sincerely from the heart when you are in sin and practicing it. Yes no one is perfect but we do not try to practice sin. Also, if you do mess the word has always said that he told the people to go and sin no more not contining in sin. We as a church should be more concerned about people souls and not building up memebership because God is going to hold these pastors accountable. That is why the bible says that people were going to be crying out Lord Lord I casted out devils and your name. God is going to tell them depart from me you workers of iniquity.
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Amen. Where is our discernment? We should be able to discern the difference between a talent and an anointing. The anointing breaks the yoke, but it must break the yoke in the person before it breaks the yoke in anyone else. Where is our discernment, saints?
People caught in the trap of homosexuality are often very gifted people, and very nice people. Often, that is the open door the devil comes in through . . . they know that they are incredibly intelligent, talented and gifted and they sense that there is something different about them. Sometimes the resultant rejection due to their giftings and talents sends them seeking for approval and acceptance elsewhere . . . and guess who is waiting for them? That's right, old satan himself.
I am concerned for the children of this generation, who are being told by the liberal agenda that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. Folks, if the church doesn't make a stand against this, what will happen to them?
Again, the church should love and pray for people caught in the darkness of such a lifestyle. However, the Bible clearly says that those who practice this sin (along with others) clearly will not inherit the Kingdom of God, and we shouldn't be deceived into thinking otherwise.
Holiness will win in this fight of faith. Holiness is still right. And holiness and sin don't mix!
Be Blessed, and it is good to know that saints still believe in what is right.
BBoy 8)
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I know im only 16 but when God comes back he wants his Church. If his church is full of Sinners not singeling out homosexuals he wont be happy as christians we shoud be in the mode of taken back what God has given us. I HATE the term I WAS BORN GAY Nobody was born gay but through this the reason can be that the family support system was low. Because if Donnie Mcklurkin got through it you can get through it to. so My answer is no The devil will use what he has in the church to corrupt it so get all the sinners you can out the church for you suffer what the devil has instore for You.
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I know that I'm coming into the game late. However, I couldn't just read the comments that were made without replying. First of all, homosexuality is an abomination to God. It is clearly a perversion. God didn't create two men or two women to be in love with each other. This is totally against Scripture. Hebrews 12:14 says, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Holiness is God's standard for all people. Concerning this issue of whether or not a known homosexual should be permitted to play the organ in the Church, it is obvious that the proper response is an emphatic "NOOOOOOO!!!!"
The issue is not about one sin being greater than another. The problem is that homosexuality is such a strong perversion that is carries with it a demonic, oppressive spirit. Many homosexual organists want to be free; but that perverse spirit has such a strong hold on their lives it almost seems impossible for them to be delivered. Why should we let a person that is bound with any kind of oppressive spirit be put in a position to impart that same (nasty) spirit to the rest of the congregation. Spirits transfer, especially through music. Remember when Saul had an evil spirit from the Lord, David played the harp skillfully under the anointing and the evil spirit was driven away. How can a musician minister with an anointing that sets captives free when they are in bondage themselves.
In my opinion, no one practicing any kind of sin should be allowed to minister in the house of God. Once it is known that their sin (lying, stealing, hatred, fornication, adultery, gossip, homosexuality, etc.) is continual and unrepentant, they should be sat down immediately. If a homosexual wants to play music, let him play in a night club or in a concert hall. The Church is not a place where people can do what they want to do just because they are talented.
I read where someone responding to this topic made reference to where the Bible says, "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord." However, music or worship offered to God by a practicing homosexual is like offering God strange fire. It will be rejected just as Cain's offering was rejected by God.
God doesn't want sacrifice offered by sinful hands. Read the following verses and let the Bible speak for itself.
Isaiah 1:11-16
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
The problem with the Church is that some Pastors and Elders can't really set the house of God in order because their lives are corrupted by sin. It's hard to sit the sissy down on the organ if you are having an affair with him. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (I Peter 4:17) When God sweeps through my Church, I don't wan't him to find a homosexual (liar, thief, murderer, fornicator) on the organ, in the choir, or in the pulpit.
Ezekiel 18:4 says, "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth (practices continual, unrepentant sin), it shall die." The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and every practicing sinner has a payday coming. Ephesians 5:25-27 says, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Let's not mess up what God is trying to clean up.
Homosexuals have souls that need to be saved just like every other sinner. But I don't know of any Church that would allow a topless dancer to come and preach on Sunday morning for the sake of being nice and/or loving? Let's preach the gospel (Acts 2:38) and get the homosexual delivered and set free. Then he (or she) can be used for the glory of God.
God bless those with standards of holiness.
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:( This post saddens me in so many ways.
All I can say to what has been said up in here is.....
LET HE OR SHE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE....
This singling out of a person's ISSUE is an abomination in itself. While this may not be my issue, I know I have enough issues that God needs to forgive me for to be worried about the sins of another. I just have a low tolerance for the SINGLING out of one sin and everyone jumping on the bandwagon. It just seems to be a convenient excuse to ignore our own transgressions against God. And all I've read here is stereotyping, suspicion, and unfounded innuendo. however, I am not ignorant enough to believe that there aren't any gay musicians in our churches. But I am not going to target them and ignore the fornicators, adulterers, spouse beaters, child neglecters, and drug users that play...and PREACH in our churches as well.
If I read my Bible correctly, it says ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We all have things we need to be forgiven for by God.
Let's operate in a more CONSTRUCTIVE manner and PRAY. First pray for ourselves.....that we strive everyday to live and operate in the will of God. And then pray for our brothers and sisters, that God would do what He needs to do in them....whether it be deliverance, healing, salvation, etc.
AMEN
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This is in response to prostr8. The Bible says all have sinned (past tense) and come short of the glory of God. This is referring to our past condition, not our present relationship. Although many of us are working on some areas in our lives, that is different from practicing sin. It is not an abomination to call a sin what it is.
Let the Bible speak for itself:
Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
If the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination, how is it an "abomination" for me or anyone else to call it like it is?
I Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;
This means you must say what God says. If God says it's an abomination, I'm going to say it's an abomination. The scriptures should be the final authority, not our personal feelings.
God bless you as you continue to grow in Christ.
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:cry: ***HANDING A STONE TO MY RESPONDER***.....ARE YOU WITHOUT BLEMISH THAT YOU FEEL THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO THROW IT?
May I ask you a question since you chose to respond to my comments....? Since you chose to make an issue out of (TENSE).....since you want to get picky...have you actually seen these people in their "abominable" acts or are you merely basing your judgement on innuendo and rumor? What grounds do you have for making your claims that this person is this and that person is that? Under what circumstances did you see them engaging in the bahivors you accuse them of? And are you living SO RIGHT that you can single out other folks in their trangressions?
I am making no excuses for anyone's sins. My issue is the singling out of one sin over another, WHEN EVERYONE has a thorn in their side. I'm much too busy trying to get right with God over my own issues so I can make it into heaven to be worried about pointing out the sins and trangressions of others.
And if anything you illustrate my point exactly as to why this POST is wrong. You single out snippets of SCRIPTURE to support your arguments. Even the devil can quote and misinterpet scripture. Did you in your quotation of the LEVITICAL scripture covneniently forget all of the other LAWS that were listed before and after that particular passage? Since you want to use that text, I wonder how many of the other LEVITCAL LAWS listed in that passage that you have broken?
Whether you like it or not, John 3:16 says that FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD....THE WORLD....THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.....and WHO-SO-EVER....believeth in Him, wil not perish, but have eternal life.
The LOVE of my GOD is so much GREATER than the HATRED and REBUKE of man. I just wish we would LOVE one another more than try to sit there on our soapbox popinting our fingers at others so that we don't have to closely examine ourselves.
As I said, we all have something to seek God's forgivenss for. What would happen if this survey/post were changed to say...SHOULD SINNERS BE ALLOWED TO PLAY IN THE MUSIC MINISTRY OF A CHURCH? bet the results would be totally different.
I believe that GOD can use ANYBODY in spite of their weakness.
If God can use a murderer like MOSES..if God can use an adulterer like DAVID...if God can use a manic depressive like JEREMIAH....if God can use Peter who cussed like a sailor.....who am I to judge who God uses in His service.
Bottom line, this POST is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the what I feel this site is trying to accomplish. we should be about trying to do everything to UPLIFT one another and not tear anyone down. And to some degree I find COWARDICE with this post as well because people can run and hide behind the safety of their screens.
WHILE I MAY NOT FIND OTHERS WHO WILL PUBLICLY SHARE MY VIEWPOINT I AM SURE I AM OTHERS FEEL THE SAMW WAY, HOWEVER THEY CHOOSE TO IGNORE THIS POST. I ON THE OTHER HAND AM NOT AFRAID!
LOVE, BLESSINGS, AND PEACE TO EVERYONE!
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Once again I am responding to PROSTR8. First off, I would like to commend you for your boldness and courage in taking the stance you’ve chosen on this subject. However, I think you are missing the point of the posting. The point that I am trying to make is that homosexuality is a sin, it is abominable, and God hates it. This is no different from me saying that God hate lying. Lying is an abomination.
Proverbs 12:22
Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.
I think it is important to define the word abomination. The word abomination comes from the Hebrew word towebah. It means something disgusting. It also means a loathsome or detestable thing. Some people have the misconception that an abomination is the worst of all sins, but this is not the case. An abomination is simply that which is disgusting to God and hated by Him. God did not create two men in the Garden of Eden; he created one man and one woman. Homosexuality is in direct conflict with God’s design for creation. Even dogs and cats know the difference between the males and females of their species. You don’t see two male dogs trying to mate. God created them to be fruitful and multiply. The only thing multiplying in the homosexual community is the spread of the HIV virus. AIDS is the number one killer of Black women between the ages of 25 – 45. One of the major reasons for this is because many gay men hide out and have sex with women even though they also have sex with men. There have been cases here in Wisconsin where saved women marry men that are in the closet only to find out two years later that they are HIV positive.
I’m not willing to bury my head in the sand and pretend like there is not a serious issue in the Church. In your world, there may not be a problem. But I have had to talk to too many young ladies in the Church who caught their boyfriends messing around with men in the Church. These young ladies are often left thinking that it was their fault or that if they were better women this never would have happened.
I want to answer a question asked in your response. You asked...“Have you actually seen these people in their abominable acts or are you merely basing your judgment on innuendo and rumor?”
No, I have not actually been in the presence of two men or two women committing homosexual (abominable) acts, however, none of my statements are based on innuendo or rumor. Over that past ten years, I’ve counseled several homosexuals and people who have been negatively impacted by homosexuality in the Church.
In one case, there was an evangelist that came to town. During his stay, he visited one of my relatives. She invited my wife and I over to meet this “man of God.” He showed no visible signs of being effeminate. I would have never thought that he was involved in homosexuality. However, as we continued to talk, the Lord gave me a word of knowledge for him concerning his struggle with homosexuality. I was discrete and told him privately (I didn’t want to embarrass or expose him in front of the others present).
When I told him what the Lord said, he began to weep. While he was crying, he told me of a time when he preached a revival in Chicago for a prominent Bishop. On the last day of the revival, the bishop told him that he would bring his offering to the hotel. When the bishop got to the hotel, he made several sexual advances toward him and told him that receiving his offering was contingent on how he responded. This evangelist was young at the time and already struggling with homosexuality because he was molested by his father as a child.
The evangelist, though he could really preach, was suicidal, depressed and insecure. My job as a minister was not to condemn him for his past, but to help him experience victory so that he could walk in freedom.
I think this is where you may be missing my point. When a Christian is struggling with sin or other destructive behaviors, we are to provide them with an atmosphere of faith, care and support. However, we must not compromise or diminish the seriousness of sin and/or its effects.
None of my comments in the previous post were addressed towards Christians battling with homosexuality. I’m only addressing individuals who are using the Church as a safe haven without making a commitment to Christ. All Christians battle with something, but we should not overlook any known sin, especially one as damaging as homosexuality.
There is a Baptist Church here in the city that hired a known homosexual organist. This guy can really play and is ranked as one of the best organists in the city. The pastor felt that since the organist wasn’t a member of the Church, his lifestyle was not important. A few months after being hired, it was discovered that the organists was having sex with one of the thirteen year old boys in the choir. This pastor had the same attitude you seem to have about sin. You stated in your response, “I'm much too busy trying to get right with God over my own issues so I can make it into heaven to be worried about pointing out the sins and transgressions of others.” Unfortunately the thirteen year old boy’s life is probably going to be ruined because that pastor didn’t care enough to watch out for the flock. He was more concerned with having someone to hit the right chords when he hollered, “Say Yes.” I know that all homosexuals are not pedophiles, but this is what happens when the Church has a relaxed attitude of tolerance toward sin.
What Church would appoint a known child molester over the children’s choir? Who would put a known thief in charge of collecting the offering? The Church has to have a standard of holiness. Without it, we are no more than a social club with membership extended to all, regardless of whether they are saved or not. At our Church, unsaved people are not allowed to hold any position or operate in any official capacities. They are welcome to come and worship, praise God and hear the Word of God. But until they get saved and delivered, they have to sit down. At the present time, we don’t have a musician. We refuse to allow a pimp, playboy or punk to play music for the saints to worship to.
I also want to respond to this next section of your response:
“You single out snippets of SCRIPTURE to support your arguments. Even the devil can quote and misinterpret scripture. Did you in your quotation of the LEVITICAL scripture conveniently forget all of the other LAWS that were listed before and after that particular passage? Since you want to use that text, I wonder how many of the other LEVITCAL LAWS listed in that passage that you have broken?”
The only reason I made reference to the Leviticus passages is to illustrate how God looked at homosexuality in the Old Testament. In addition, homosexuality is also condemned in the New Testament. We are not under the Law, but under Grace. We are not in bondage to levitical systems, we are free in Christ Jesus.
II Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
When the Bible says, “all scripture,” this includes both the Old and New Testaments. While we are not bound to the Old Testament Laws, we can learn from the principles and precepts presented therein. It is profitable (beneficial) for us to know what God said about homosexuality in the Old Testament, especially since it is consistent with what the New Testament teaches on the subject. Every time I eat a plate of chitterlings (chitlins), pork ribs, rabbit stew or ham, I’m in violation of the Levitical laws. However, the New Testament gives us further instruction:
Acts 10:10-16
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
I Timothy 4:3-5
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Concerning the dietary laws, the New Testament gives us some light on the subject.
Colossians 2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
On the subject of homosexuality, the teaching of the Old Testament is consistent with that of the New Testament.
Romans 1:26-28
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
I Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
If the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments teach that homosexuality is wrong, and that those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God, why is it such a problem to preach against this particular sin? It seems that we (those of us who still preach against homosexuality) are being accused of preaching “the hatred and rebuke of man.” My stance against homosexuality and my willingness to preach against it is not a message of hate and rebuke; it is a message of holiness and righteousness.
I want this point to be made clear. I don’t reject people trying to come out of homosexuality. My problem is with sinners who don’t know Christ, who are not saved and who don’t love God and yet want to be leaders in the Church. No unsaved person should be allowed to work in the Church. It doesn’t matter what kind of sin they are involved in. The topic I responded to was not, “Should a born-again Christian struggling to overcome homosexuality be allowed to sing or play the organ in Church.” If this were the topic, your response would be appropriate. However, the issue we’re discussing is whether or not a know homosexual (one who is practicing homosexuality continually and unrepentantly) should be allowed to play the organ or sing in Church.
I agree that we should not “single out one sin over another,” but I am equally opposed to having a relaxed attitude toward sin. I don’t want to sound like I’m personally attacking you, but this attitude of “we all have problems” is one of the reasons the Church is in the shape that it’s in. My philosophy is, “Love the sinner, but hate the sin.” Furthermore, if you were to ask me specifically about the problems with Ford automobiles, would you expect me to criticize you for not asking about the problems with Kias, Mazdas or Buicks? The question was about one kind of automobile, Ford. This discussion was supposed to be about homosexuality in the Church, not if anyone responding to this post has any sin in their lives.
You asked, “ARE YOU WITHOUT BLEMISH THAT YOU FEEL THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO THROW IT?”
I have taken a clear stance against sin and unrighteousness. At this point in my walk with God, I am experiencing the greatest level of freedom and deliverance I have ever felt. I’m not in bondage to any sin. This, however, does not give me the right to condemn other Christians who are still struggling, or even sinners for that matter. My job is to help people experience the freedom and liberty that I have found in Christ Jesus. Deliverance is not an overnight miracle all the time, but through proper guidance from the Word and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, deliverance is inevitable. While I’ve never been a homosexual, I was a big fornicator. At one point I was dating about 25 women at the same time. When I got saved, it was hard to give up all the women I had, but God helped me to let go of them. It was a process, but I allowed God to deliver me.
In the Old Testament, the priests had to offer sacrifice at the brazen altar and wash and the brazen laver before they could enter the tabernacle and minister before the Lord. What’s wrong with us requiring people to cleanse their hands before playing music in the house of God?
Yes God can use anybody in spite of their weaknesses, but a person has to want deliverance in order to receive it. If a person has repented (turned away from sin), accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, been baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that person, regardless of their issue, should be encouraged and aided by mature Christians in their process of deliverance. They need to be filled with the Holy Ghost with the biblical evidence of speaking in other tongues. Your view of God’s love needs to be balanced with the clear teaching of Scripture against sin. If we make light of what the Word of God says about sin in our attitude towards it, we are doing more harm than good to the message of holiness. If we preach the love of God without preaching repentance, people will never truly experience salvation (soteria – deliverance).
One of the things I’ve observed is that Churches that have a relaxed attitude toward homosexuality are usually full of sissies. An example of this is one of our largest COGIC Churches in the city. I had to go there for a meeting and I was greeted at the door by black man with blonde hair, blue contact lenses, earrings in both ears, a tongue ring in his mouth, a tight spandex type shirt, with a voice that was lighter than my baby sister’s. A real brother wouldn’t even feel comfortable looking like that. Further more, I later found out that he was an employee of the Church. He was on salary and being paid through the tithes and offerings of the saints. Come now, let us reason together. Even McDonalds has a uniform. What makes matters worse about this Church, one of the head musicians is related to a good friend of mine. The musician’s wife just recently divorced him because she caught him in her bed with a man. His family was destroyed and his reputation was ruined. The news traveled fast. The thing everyone was upset about was not the fact that he was gay (we all knew that); everyone was surprised by the fact that after everything came out and his pastor (bishop) was informed, he was still allowed to play the organ and retain his ministerial credentials. There are also rumors circulating about the pastor. While I don’t pay much attention to rumors and unfounded testimony, the way he handled that situation makes you wonder.
Preaching what the Bible says about sin is not the same as casting stones. We must preach the whole Word of God.
Deuteronomy 12:32
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Proverbs 30:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
God told us not to add to His word and not to take away from it. Although the second reference specifically refers to the Book of Revelation, it demonstrates God’s attitude toward adding to and diminishing His Word.
It is possible to vehemently oppose a particular sin and yet show compassion to those who are bound in it. I hate the sin of adultery. In my opinion, there’s no excuse for a man or woman to go outside of their home looking for sex as a saint of God. I’ve only been married for seven years, but during this time, my wife and I have encountered many storms. At times I felt like leaving, but I never saw the logic in breaking the vow I made to God and my wife. At the same time, I’ve had to counsel husbands who have cheated on their wives. I didn’t beat the husband over the head because of his mistakes. I simply show him what the Bible says concerning adultery, lead him to the cross for forgiveness, and did my best to help them restore their marriage. This is the way I deal with sin. The first thing is to show people that God loves them, but that He hates sin. The second thing is to empower them to overcome whatever sin is present in their life.
I have several passages of Scripture that tell us how to handle an unrepentant member of the Church; however I will only give you one:
Note: The word fornication comes from the Greek word pornea which means sexual immorality. This word was used as an inclusive term to refer to all sexually immoral acts such as adultery, fornication, rape, incest, homosexuality, bestiality, lesbianism, prostitution, etc. It is the word from which pornography is derived.
I Corinthians 5:1-13
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Any person that will deny that God meant what he said in the above passages is clearly deluded and deceived by the devil. I would also like to note that this is the Apostle Paul writing by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. In Romans 7, Paul tells us of the conflict that existed in his flesh. Yet, he was also able to preach against sin and tell the Church to put the wicked person away from them.
The Bible is the final authority on all matters of doctrine and instruction. Let’s balance the message of God’s love with the reality that God is a God of Judgment.
Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Note: I agree that the devil can quote and misinterpret Scriptures. However, I welcome you or anyone else to exegetically refute any of the Scriptures I used in my responses or the way I applied them.
Prayerfully Yours,
A Holiness Preacher
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:D Praise the Lord!!!!! First off, let me start out by sayin' IT JUST AIN'T RIGHT!!!!! it just make me sick when I see all these men who God made men, acting like women. And even more worse when I see pastors letting them continue. Hey brother dkmusic22, where are you from because I have heard of a story just like that. May God bless you all. :D 8)
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"A murderer like Moses . . . " Moses did murder a man once. But he was not in a lifestyle of murder, he repented and never murdered again.
"An adulterer like David . . . " David did commit adultery, and he was confronted by the prophet Nathan, he repented and changed his life. Oh, and by the way . . . his life was never the same again.
"A manic-depressive like Jeremiah . . . " Does the Bible ever say that Jeremiah was manic depressive? What makes a person say that he was manic depressive? Anyone who saw what Jeremiah saw . . . the impending destruction of his nation, false prophets who were more popular than the real WORD of GOD, and people who loved it so . . . . well, anyone would be depressed! He did not have a weakness toward depression, his sadness was not a sin or a bondage or an affliction . . . it was a normal reaction to terrible news! AND HE DIDN'T QUIT HIS CALLING EITHER . . . HE FINISHED HIS CORSE IN SPITE OF TERRIBLE SURROUNDINGS!
"Peter who cussed like a sailor . . . " We have once instance of Peter, out of fear for his life, swore when he was confronted by others. If there is any other instance of Peter swearing, I am unaware of it.
"A homosexual like So and So . . . " Well, of course there are many people who have, by the Precious Blood of Jesus, been released from the sin of homosexuality. And then, they are no longer homosexuals!!! THen they should most definitely preach, teach, and sing and play . . . they are the redeemed, and they should say so!
Of course GOD can use anyone. GOD can even use a sinner! But there is a difference between being used, and holding a place of public ministry! In public ministry, you must be an example!
I don't think that anyone is saying to throw away or give up on people who are struggling with the sin of homosexuality. Of course we love them, pray for them, show them that they don't have to be bound in the darkness of such a lifestyle. And we definitely aren't saying to hold this lifestyle over their heads when they have repented and are no longer living like that. No one is even saying to shun them, because if they are shunned by the Church, who can help them? We are the only ones with the power . . . HOLY GHOST power . . . to help them!
And if anyone thinks that this is too harsh, listen to what the Bible says. The Bible says that if anyone claims to be a beleiver, and is living a life contrary to what holiness is, we aren't even to so much as HAVE A MEAL WITH THEM!
Be Blessed . . . :lol:
BBoy 8)
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FBU...I am not missing your point at all. What I find is that many...as illustrated by the comment expressed after yours by CRAZYKEYS.....fail to miss the bigger picture in your quest to DEMONIZE a SINGULAR group. In fact, you continue to illustrate my point of how people are MISSING THE FOREST FOR THE TREES.
Let's explore your claims shall we?
YOU SAY...The point that I am trying to make is that homosexuality is a sin, it is abominable, and God hates it. This is no different from me saying that God hate lying. Lying is an abomination.
Proverbs 12:22
Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight
THANK YOU! THat's all I have been trying to say. Why single out one SIN in this post without regard for the other multitude of sins comitted everyday by us all. Everyone has their THORNS for which they need to seek God for...whether it be LYING, FORNICATION, ADDCITION, ADULTERY, MURDER, STEALING, etc. And in our pulpits, music ministries, and pews you will come across all of these things. That's why we are in church to seek God's help on how to live the life and be the church He has called us to be.
However..as much as you say it's no DIFFERENT than saying that God hates lying, the degree to which you spend time expressing that belief is quite the contrary. It's just not fair.
You right, God sees no difference, but too many PEOPLE do...and that's whereI find a problem. There is a MARKED difference between identifying something as a SIN and epxressing your own PERSONAL DISLIKE for someone's behavior or lifestyle. I find this to be a SERIOUS problem in the black church, and this problem is truly preventing us from being the church that God has called us to be for a time such as this.
For as it states in the Bible, how is that we can love God whom we cannot see, and hate our brothers and sisters who we see everyday? As much as people walkk around saying the PC statement...LOVE THE SINNER BUT HATE THE SIN. I find that the Black Church falls short on this statment too many times....and this POST explemifies my claims. More often than not...whether you truly admit it or not....as far as the people you have "identified" as being homosexual...you hate them just as much as you hate the sin they practice and you wrongly hide behind the BIBLE to support your distate for them.....and I am CALLING IT OUT!
And when you accuse people of such and seek to explore their capacity to love and forgive their brother or sister, they say well I am not GOD....I am not JESUS! You are so right! Yet you are quick to play GOD when administering judgement against one group of sinners while not exposing and expressing the same amount of disdain for those who engage in other types of sin. It's wrong to engage in a witch hunt against homosexuality for it is more than likely targeting a small group of people by a larger group who are less likely to engage in that behavior. But would you be as likely to come across a post such as this asking...SHOULD ADULTERERS BE ALLOWED TO PLAY OR SING IN CHURCHES? SHOULD DRUG ADDICTS BE ALLOWED TO PLAY OR SING IN CHURCHES? I think NOT! Why? Because it would impact and convict far more people. And if you say this is just not true...why haven't I seen such POSTS? There is HATRED in the heart of many of the people who repsonded to this post...as well as in the black church...and I AM EXPOSING IT FOR WHAT IT IS!
Let's be REAL!!! In how many of churches....ifsomeone were to publicly express that they have committed adultery...if they have admited to using cocaine...they would be embraced...people woudl receive them with open arms and do what they can to help them on the way to repentance. Things would go on as normal.....they would be hugged and sense the suppor tand love of their fellow members. As long as they come, they would feel support. But would that same sense of love and support be extended to a person who openly admited to being a homosexual? Would people REALLY beleive them if they said that they had been delivered from homosexuality? More than likely...the answer is NO. They would forever be stigmatized and criticized..often to the point of feeling the need to leave the church. That's not what God desires for His people, and that's what God expects fro his church.
I mean look at the eloquent examples you render FBUFOR01 of instances where you have encountered homosexuality. Would any of the examples you provided be any less WRONG and REPREHENSIBLE had they occured between members of the OPPOSITE SEX? Would it not be as big of a deal if they women you have counseled came to you because their husbands/boyfriends were cheating on them with other women?Would not that bishop have been just as wrong had he apporached a young female minister in that same way? Would it not be as big of a deal if the "known" homosexual orgnaist in your city had been caught messing around with a 13 year old girl? WOuldn't her life be just as ruined? You are right......not all homosexuals are pedophiles and child molesters. In fact, ask anychild protection agency and they will say the vast majority are heterosexual. However, when you put information like that out there...in the position of leadership you are in...you only feed the flame of hatred in the ear of some uninformed person. The bottom is...ADULTERY is WRONG whether committed with a male or female.....PEDOPHILIA is WRONG...whether comitted with a child of the same sex or opposite sex. The examples you give give a DISTORTED view to more likely than not MISINFORMED SAINTS who will not see the whole context, yet will run rampant with it. That, my friend, is irreesponsible.
YOU SAY....
The topic I responded to was not, “Should a born-again Christian struggling to overcome homosexuality be allowed to sing or play the organ in Church.” If this were the topic, your response would be appropriate. However, the issue we’re discussing is whether or not a know homosexual (one who is practicing homosexuality continually and unrepentantly) should be allowed to play the organ or sing in Church.
The question listed only stated "homoesxual".....it said nothing about whether whether they were born again or "known". Come on now, we know there is a much bigger issue at had whenever this topic is brought up. That's a convenient excuse.
Believe it or not, in our dialogue I am finding that we agree more than we disagree. I AGREE....No unsaved person should be allowed to work in the Church. It doesn’t matter what kind of sin they are involved in. I whole headterdly agree, but let's get EVERYBODY and not just one group.
This by far is the most beautiful, and enlightened statement I've heard you make here....
I have taken a clear stance against sin and unrighteousness. At this point in my walk with God, I am experiencing the greatest level of freedom and deliverance I have ever felt. I’m not in bondage to any sin. This, however, does not give me the right to condemn other Christians who are still struggling, or even sinners for that matter. My job is to help people experience the freedom and liberty that I have found in Christ Jesus. Deliverance is not an overnight miracle all the time, but through proper guidance from the Word and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, deliverance is inevitable. While I’ve never been a homosexual, I was a big fornicator. At one point I was dating about 25 women at the same time. When I got saved, it was hard to give up all the women I had, but God helped me to let go of them. It was a process, but I allowed God to deliver me.
This is what is absent that I have been trying to bring to light. I find no finger pointing here, but someone who recognizes that we have all sinned sought deliverance from something. The tone of this post had not truly reflected that which is why I felt the need to speak up.
All I want to bring to light in this post is for everyone to take a self inventory of their attitdues regarding ONE type of sin as opposed to others. I have repeatedly said I am not excusing or defending a particular sin, but I do find problems with zeroing in on one. Idon't find myself being lax as you claim....but the high bar of righteousness is to be held for ALL types of sin.
We are all sinners saved by grace, and WE ALL deserve that same opportunity for forgiveness, and LOVE. Do we do that though? do we REALLY?
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I was trying to stay out of this discussion, but I don't think I can take it any more!
FBU, Thanks for standing on the Word of God
BBoy, you are absolutely right
My question now though is, why does everybody say, that as Christians, we are not to judge. Now when I say this I don't mean judgeing in the sense of bringing condemnation on someone. We have to know that the Bible says to us as Christians, that when we judge we are to RIGHTEOUSLY JUDGE. What does that mean? Glad you asked!
If I see someone lost in a world of sin and I don't say or do anything to try to help them get on the right path then I have blood on my hands. Now if I confess to be saved yet I am doing what I see the unsaved person do I have no right to say anything to them. If I have confessed my sins and repented wholeheartedly and I now live a life of holiness, who says that I can't call sin what it is. We always talk about helping people in love. Where is the love? Love is not allowing someone allow spirits of sin (whatever sin it may be) to hinder those that are really seeking God!
Love is not tolerating the sin! Jesus didn't go into the temple and say oh it will be alright ya'll keep doing what you're doing. No He turned the tables over. Jesus said my house is a house of prayer, yet we allow it to become a den of thieves!
Prostr8, Please don't continue to compromise the Word of God. Yes sin is sin, there is no one sin greater than the other, but that does not mean that we should allow any of it to continue in the house of God.
Be Blessed
Minister Chavon
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First of all 1st LADY....just becasue I do NOT AGREE with how certain men and women choose to interpret the WORD OF GOD....does not mean that I COMPROMISE the word of GOD...AT ALL!
Secondly......you say...
If I see someone lost in a world of sin and I don't say or do anything to try to help them get on the right path then I have blood on my hands. Now if I confess to be saved yet I am doing what I see the unsaved person do I have no right to say anything to them. If I have confessed my sins and repented wholeheartedly and I now live a life of holiness, who says that I can't call sin what it is. We always talk about helping people in love. Where is the love? Love is not allowing someone allow spirits of sin (whatever sin it may be) to hinder those that are really seeking God!
My question to you.....DOES THIS REALLY HAPPEN IN OUR CHURCHES? do we REALLY approach them in LOVE and try to help them get on the right path as you say? I am sorry but I just don't see that happening. where is the love when I see posters refer to their brother or sister as a PUNK and SISSY. That's immature name calling if you ask me. And if some of the repsonses reflected here in this posting reflects what you may find in the house of God, no wonder you have me and women living such destrcutive lives in secret. Contrary to how we are instructed t live, church can be some cruel people....and no matter what you do to change and get right....they will never let you out live your past.
It's easy to say to someone things like ...DO NOT!...and STOP!..especially if it's not your struggle. But what help do we offer as a body of believer's as a way out of their circumstances? Even the good reverend FBU says that deliverance is a proces and that it takes time. where is the support in the process? So you sit someone down.....then WHAT? And do we truly rejoice in their delievrance and invite them back into the fold? I say this happens for some transgressions than it does for others.
And can I just throw this thought out there as well to add to the comments I have already made? For those of you who are so passionate about removing the homosexual musicians and choir members from your churches...are you just as thorough in examining who's songs you sing in your churches? Do you do background clearance checks on the songwriters of many of the songs your choir sings or of the gospel singers you play in your CDs? Are you just as thorough and discerning about what is sung and what you listen to? Someone mad emention of Donnie McClurkin's testimony? You think he the only one?
I can tell based on the responses that I have received thus far...that people still are not READY. Still missing the forest for the tree. :( :( My purpose was not to change anyone's views, but to at least open some minds...and some hearts to the matter.
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PROSTR8, You commented...
“Let's be REAL!!! In how many of churches....if someone were to publicly express that they have committed adultery...if they have admitted to using cocaine...they would be embraced...people would receive them with open arms and do what they can to help them on the way to repentance. Things would go on as normal.....they would be hugged and sense the support and love of their fellow members. As long as they come, they would feel support. But would that same sense of love and support be extended to a person who openly admitted to being a homosexual? Would people REALLY believe them if they said that they had been delivered from homosexuality? More than likely...the answer is NO. They would forever be stigmatized and criticized...often to the point of feeling the need to leave the church. That's not what God desires for His people, and that's what God expects fro his church.”
I agree that we have a problem in some churches with demonstrating a loving and forgiving attitude toward certain individuals. Most people would think nothing of a person keeping an extra $50.00 bill they were mistakenly given by a cashier or bank teller. We don’t usually preach against making $15,000.00 under the table and not paying taxes on it, even though Jesus told us to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. (Most musicians who play for small churches are paid under the table.) Some Christians leave Church after Sunday service and rush to the local ALL YOU CAN EAT restaurant and wolf down 7 plates of food and have 5 refills of soda. This is clearly gluttony, which the Bible says leads to poverty (Proverbs 23:21). It is also true that while we condemn nicotine, alcohol, and drug addictions, many Church members are addicted to caffeine, prescription medicines, chocolate, sodas, television and even pornography.
I try to inform people of how all sin robs us as believers. Sin in any form is deadly.
Hebrews 3:13
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
James 1:15
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
As Christians, we are to warn the Church of the affects of sin, and empower them to walk free from it. Christianity is a message of hope for all people, not a word of condemnation.
Romans 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Most people in the Church can quote John 3:16, but don’t know what the next verse says.
John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
As the Church, our job is not to be ministers of condemnation, but of reconciliation.
II Corinthians 5:18
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
I do understand your position. I preach the love and compassion of God, but I also know that God is a holy God and requires holiness and obedience from His people.
I Peter 1:14-16
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
I John 2:3-5
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
I want to address a few of your statements and clarify/defend my position.
You said ...
“However...as much as you say it's no DIFFERENT than saying that God hates lying, the degree to which you spend time expressing that belief is quite the contrary. It's just not fair.”
The reason I spend so much time on the subject of homosexuality is because that is the subject at hand. If the post were on the subject of lying, I would have commented on the following verses in great detail:
Psalms 31:18, Psalms 52:3-4, Psalms 58:3, Proverbs 12:22, Proverbs 19:22, Proverbs 26:28, Ephesians 4:25, I Timothy 1:9-10, I John 2:4, 22, I John 4:20, Revelation 21:8.
The subject of this post was relating to the problem in the Church with homosexuality and the involvement of homosexuals in the music ministry. We can not discuss every problem that exists in the Church at the same time. The overall objective of this post was to get an idea of how those viewing this site felt about the issue of homosexuality in the Church (What’s wrong with the Church?). I don’t feel that it is wrong for us to discuss our convictions on the subject, nor is it wrong to condemn homosexuality, especially since the Bible condemns it. “...Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar...” (Romans 3:4)
Also, you stated...
“There is a MARKED difference between identifying something as a SIN and expressing your own PERSONAL DISLIKE for someone's behavior or lifestyle.”
Although I agree that there is a difference between identifying something as a SIN and expressing your own personal dislike or disgust for someone's behavior or lifestyle, my question is, “Is it wrong to dislike sin?”
The Bible tells us what our attitude should be towards evil things:
Romans 12:9
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
The Word Abhor comes from the Greek Word apostugéō which means to hate, abhor or detest with horror.
We are told that our love must be sincere and without hypocrisy, but we are also to hate that which is evil. This abhorrence is not limited to homosexuality; but homosexuality definitely qualifies as an “evil thing.” According to James 1:15, sin will ultimately destroy those who allow it to be birthed in them. Personally, I hate sin and what it does to people. That’s why I preach against it in every form, not just homosexuality.
You also made a very bold statement when you said...
“More often than not...whether you truly admit it or not....as far as the people you have "identified" as being homosexual...you hate them just as much as you hate the sin they practice and you wrongly hide behind the BIBLE to support your distaste for them.....and I am CALLING IT OUT!”
You are assuming that I hate the people I’ve identified as being homosexuals. To use your own words, “...are you merely basing your judgment on innuendo and rumor?” I think it is unfair of you to accuse me of hate, especially since I have not used the word hate nor any related terms in reference to homosexuals. I hate homosexuality just as God hates it, yet I have just as much compassion for homosexuals as I have for alcoholics, drug addicts, and liars. What you are “calling out” seems to reflect something you have personally experienced in the Church. It seems to me like you have been wounded in the Church by the judgmental attitudes of some person(s) in the Church. I’m not saying that I think you are a homosexual, but it seems awkward for you to make statements filled with assumption and innuendo after accusing me of doing the same.
I won’t pretend like there aren’t people in the Church who have a problem showing love to certain kinds of people, but that doesn’t make them wrong for taking a stand against sin (homosexuality).
I’m not hiding behind the Bible to support my distaste for homosexuality, I’m simply “earnestly contending for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.”
You also made an interesting statement...
“...you are quick to play GOD when administering judgment against one group of sinners while not exposing and expressing the same amount of disdain for those who engage in other types of sin.”
The Bible tells us how to deal with unrepentant sin in the Church. His instructions include more than love and forgiveness:
II Timothy 3:1-5
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.
The Bible is telling us to turn away from them. How much clearer can God be?
I Corinthians 5:1-2, 5, 9, 11-13
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Paul told us to do several things to this person practicing unrepentant sin:
• Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh
• Do not keep company with fornicators
• Put away from among yourselves that wicked person
Verses 12 and 13 are not very clear in the King James Version, but the NIV clears it up beautifully.
I Corinthians 5:12-13 NIV
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the Church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.
These instructions apply to all sin, including homosexuality. Of course, this must be balanced with Matthew 7:1-5, 18:15-17; Galatians 6:1-3; James 5:19; I John 1:8-10.
The Church has the right to make a judgment (decision) when it comes to a person practicing sin unrepentantly. If it is known that someone is involved in a sin that brings reproach on the Church, the Church has the right to expel them in obedience to the Word of God.
Judgment is committed to the saints. I also agree with 1stLady that when we judge, we are to JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY.
I Corinthians 6:1-2
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
I also want to respond to the charge of being irresponsible. You commented...
“...when you put information like that out there...in the position of leadership you are in...you only feed the flame of hatred in the ear of some uninformed person.... The examples you give give a DISTORTED view to more likely than not MISINFORMED SAINTS who will not see the whole context, yet will run rampant with it. That, my friend, is irresponsible.”
I’m not giving a distorted view of anything. This is reality. There are closet homosexuals dating heterosexual women in the Church who transmit diseases (some deadly). There are homosexuals in the Church that molest little boys (and girls). There are closet homosexuals in the hierarchy of many Christian denominations. All of these are facts. Look at the Catholic Church and its problem with homosexual priests who molest children.
You stated, “You are right......not all homosexuals are pedophiles and child molesters. In fact, ask any child protection agency and they will say the vast majority are heterosexual.”
At this point, I would like to give a few quotes from the Family Research Council article titled, “Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse.” Issue No.: 247 by Timothy J. Dailey, Ph. D.
However, despite efforts by homosexual activists to distance the gay lifestyle from pedophilia, there remains a disturbing connection between the two. This is because, by definition, male homosexuals are sexually attracted to other males. While many homosexuals may not seek young sexual partners, the evidence indicates that disproportionate numbers of gay men seek adolescent males or boys as sexual partners. In this paper we will consider the following evidence linking homosexuality to pedophilia:
• Pedophiles are invariably males: Almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men.
• Significant numbers of victims are males: Up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys (as opposed to girls).
• The 10 percent fallacy: Studies indicate that, contrary to the inaccurate but widely accepted claims of sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population.
• Homosexuals are over represented in child sex offenses: Individuals from the 1 to 3 percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same sex are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children.
• Some homosexual activists defend the historic connection between homosexuality and pedophilia: Such activists consider the defense of "boy-lovers" to be a legitimate gay rights issue.
• Pedophile themes abound in homosexual literary culture: Gay fiction as well as serious academic treatises promote "intergenerational intimacy."
“The evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls. To demonstrate this it is necessary to connect several statistics related to the problem of child sex abuse: 1) men are almost always the perpetrator; 2) up to one-third or more of child sex abuse cases are committed against boys; 3) less than three percent of the population are homosexuals. Thus, a tiny percentage of the population (homosexual men), commit one-third or more of the cases of child sexual molestation.”
“The actual percentage of child sexual abuse victims who are boys very likely exceeds the above estimates. Many researchers echo the view of the Journal of Child Psychiatry study, which refers to the "under-reporting of the incidence and prevalence of sexual abuse in boys."
“Homosexuals Comprise Less than 3 Percent of the Population.”
To read the entire article, go to http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS02E3
I’m not trying to get people to hate homosexuals; but I’m not willing to change the reality of this issue either. No homosexuals should be allowed to corrupt the flow of worship in the Church, nor should they be put in a position to endanger anyone in the Church (male or female/adult or child).
The only reason I’m placing great emphasis on homosexuality if because, once again, this is the subject at hand. We’re not discussing preachers who prey on teenage girls in the Church. If that were the discussion, I would talk about one of my family members (female) that was raped by a male preacher in his 40’s when she was 16 years old. However, since the subject is homosexuality, this is where I spending my time.
I know that there are other issues in the Church. But I’m not willing to minimize what the Bible says about homosexuality, nor am I willing to compromise with the devil on this issue. It was wrong yesterday and it’s wrong today. I can’t lower God’s standard of holiness.
One of the problems I’m having with our discussion is that you have not once actually said that you are against homosexuality. You have not even agreed that it is a problem in the Church. While I agree with much of what you say, it seems that you almost justify homosexuality and condemn those of us who oppose it. It would be easier for me to receive what you are saying if you made it clear that you are against homosexuality and in agreement with what the Bible says on the subject. Maybe you would like to discuss whether or not homosexuality is a sin?
I’m having a hard time figuring out why you are so sympathetic towards homosexuals. You seem to be very defensive of them. In one of your previous replies, you made reference to that fact that you are not afraid to publicly share your viewpoint. Why would you need to be afraid to say that the Church needs to examine itself? This is an open forum?
Brother, I’m not writing any of this to attack you or to accuse you of anything. I just enjoy engaging in intelligent dialogue and defending the clear teaching of Scripture. I want to stress the fact that I’m not here to condemn; I’m just not willing to compromise.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the ABOMINABLE, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts,
A Holiness Preacher
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To add on a bit, it is Scripturally wrong to say that homosexuality is no different than any other sin.
First of all, sexual sins themselves are in a different catagory than other types of sins. The Bible tells us in the Book of Corinthians that all other sins are done without the body, but a sexual sin (fornication) is a sin against the body.
Any minister who has done any counseling at all knows that when a person is struggling with a sexual sin, it is an entirley different ballgame than a person who is trying to overcome lying, drinking, gambling, etc. So to lump homosexuality and fornication in with other sins is not right from the get go. So let's put that aside if we are going to stick to Bible doctrine.
"Well, then homosexuality is no worse than any other sexual sin, then." Wrong again.
In the Book of Romans, the Bible speaks of homosexuality as that which is against nature.
Again, I don't think anyone is saying that the Church should kick out, alienate, or shun those trapped in such a lifestyle. Many people are untrained to deal with this, and as a result people are hurt. The only way to deal with this or any other sin is to decide that we are going to go by what the Bible says, and not what the modern day world says.
Last question; is anyone under the impression that we wouldn't have a problem with an adulterer or a drug addict or a gambler ministering in church? Who said that this would be allowed? Of course these sins should be dealt with, just like the issue of homosexuality should be dealt with.
Be Blessed . . . :lol:
BBoy 8)
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I would like to respond to something PROSTR8 said in his reply to 1stLady. PROSTR8 said...
“...where is the love when I see posters refer to their brother or sister as a PUNK and SISSY. That's immature name calling if you ask me.”
The words punk, sissy, faggot, gay blaze, flammin, homo, sodomite, queer, etc. are all words used to describe homosexuals. While none of them are politically correct, these words are synonymous with homosexuality. Referring to a homosexual (in general) as a sodomite, queer or sissy doesn’t mean that we can’t show the love of God. Why should we have to come up with some cute name to refer to what God calls abominable (i.e. disgusting). Just like a whore (hoe) is a whore (hoe), a sissy is a sissy. That’s what they have chosen to be.
Furthermore, a practicing homosexual is not my brother or my sister anyway. There’s no such thing as a saved homosexual or a homosexual Christian. The body is the temple of God and was not designed for sexual immorality. We don't have the right to take God's temple and make it into a house of harlotry.
I Corinthians 6:15-20
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Food for thought – The bible uses strong, offensive language to describe sinful people, even insulting words. Read the following verses...
Isaiah 56:10-11
10 His watchmen are BLIND: they are all IGNORANT, they are all DUMB DOGS, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are GREEDY DOGS which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Matthew 3:7
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of VIPERS, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 12:34
34 O generation of VIPERS, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 12:38-39
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An EVIL and ADULTEROUS generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Matthew 23:33
33 Ye SERPENTS, ye generation of VIPERS, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Luke 9:41
41 And Jesus answering said, O FAITHLESS and PERVERSE generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.
Matthew 7:6
6 Give not that which is holy unto the DOGS, neither cast ye your pearls before SWINE, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Philippians 3:2
2 Beware of DOGS, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
II Timothy 3:6
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive SILLY women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
In the Bible, sinful people are called dogs, dumb dogs, greedy dogs, blind, ignorant, vipers, serpents, swine, evil, faithless, adulterous, perverse and silly. Can we rightly call Isaiah, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ or Paul immature? God forbid!!!
I’m not suggesting that we get into name calling, nor am I condoning it. I’m just submitting the above verses. I have used some terms for homosexuality that may be offensive (Sissy, Punk, etc.). My intention was not to offend. I also used the words “pimp” and “playboy” to refer to men that have relationships with more than one woman at a time. But, If I have offended you (PROSTR8), I apologize.
As a side not, BBoy is right on in everything he has posted. 1stLady, keep preaching the truth.
God bless
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My previous post should have ended with...
As a side note, BBoy is right on in everything he has posted. 1stLady, keep preaching the truth.
God bless
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ALLOW ME TO RESPOND FBU....
First of all, let me to apologize for I was referring to you specifically but rather the universal YOU.
Secondly, you did a fine job of finding an article to support your argument for linking homosexuality to pedophilia. I’m sure I can GOOGLE and find just as many articles to refute it.
Now allow me to explain where I am coming from to prevent any false assumptions as there has already been more than enough of that. No sir, I am not a homosexual. I’m not even an instrumental musician….YET. However, I have experienced some things that have disturbed my spirit, and I have had to do some deep soul searching as to how reconcile my own faith in God when I encounter other’s religiocity. These incidents caused me to become particularly passionate about this issue.
It has been five years since the passing of one of my best friends from Grad school. He was already HIV + when I met him. We completed our doctoral program, graduated, went our separate ways, but remained in touch. He eventually died from an AIDS related illness. I had to fly down to TN to help his friends with funeral arrangements because his family all but abandoned him and refused to have anything to do with his funeral saying that “he deserved what he got.” He was not even allowed to be buried through his home church. What a way to go. I’m sure they had scriptures to back up their actions as well. However, that is something his parents will have to deal with for the rest of their lives.
Most recently, I encountered something that I had never seen occur in a church. I had heard about this stuff happening, but I thought this was something you’d find in some storefront church down south somewhere. During regular Sunday service a few months back, my then pastor mounts the pulpit as normal to preach the sermon. Instead of proceeding with the sermon, he gets this look in his eye, and says…..I CANNOT GO ON UNTIL I ARREST THIS DEMONIC SPIRIT IN THE HOUSE TODAY. PARENTS COVER YOUR CHILDREN. SOME FOLKS ARE GOING TO GET FREE TODAY. THIS SPIRIT OF HOMOSEXUALITY IS COMING OUT. Then he gets out of the pulpit and points to this young man who only joined church the Sunday prior. He calls him into the aisle from his pew, tells him to raise his hands, and lays hands on him. The young man falls to the ground. Yet when he tries to get back up, the pastor lays his hand on his head again and the man falls down. This goes on about 5 or six times. Then the pastor says that if you are dealing with this spirit of homosexuality you better come out of your seat now or I am coming to you. A woman comes down from the balcony, and he lays hands on her. He waits, and true to his word, when no one else comes down, he goes and starts laying hands on about five people in the congregation….all men of different ages. Then, when he gets back in the pulpit, he lays hands on one of his own ministers.
You could hear a pin drop in that sanctuary that day. I was in total shock. He had done a spontaneous laying on of hands before, but he had never specified what he was doing it for before. I had never felt so cold in God’s house as I did that day. Needless to say, much turmoil occurred as a result of that Sunday service.
Of course, that young man who was called out and who had just joined church the Sunday before, never came back. I saw him over the summer while at the grocery store one day. I never met him before, but I felt a need to go up to him and speak to him. All I could say to him was that I was I church that Sunday, and I offered the brother an apology. I don’t know why. I didn’t do anything to him, but I didn’t know what else to say. I asked if he had found another church, and he said that he had not and had no intentions of doing so. Now I want someone to explain to me how the actions of the pastor and the results are in the will of God. I saw no love in that AT ALL. He went on to say that the pastor tried to contact him for two weeks after that, but he never returned his calls.
As for his associate minister that he also laid hands on, he has since left feeling that his ministry had been compromised. He has a lawsuit pending with the pastor and the church for defamation of character. One of the other gentlemen that the pastor touched (identified) is a teacher in the community and some of his students were in service. I can only imagine the grief he got for that.
I have since changed ministries. This church is in another different city, yet he heard about what went down that Sunday. I have had several conversations with him about it because I wanted to be fully informed about the next church I joined. Of course, no church is perfect, but I never want to experience anything like that in my life again. Abandoning church was never an option for me. My love for God is too great to let something like that run me away.
That’s where I am coming from. I am not expecting anyone to understand or sympathize. What has already been stated by others in this post speaks volumes. You cannot post up enough scriptures to influence to believe that their actions were Bible based. I’ll stand by my initial statements that sin is sin and that singling out one group is counter-productive to the overall body of Christ, and in many instances can do more harm than good. The ten commandments are not multiple choice….lol. I stand by my statements that we are falling short when it comes to providing an environment that LOVES the sin out them...particularly when it comes to this issue. It’s not the correction of sin that I have a problem with…it’s how its done that I find problematic.
Good night and God bless you all!
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PROSTR8
All of this time I have been arguing about the fact that homosexuality is wrong. I’ve been trying to prove that the Church should take a stand against it. And while I still hold to everything I previously posted, I think I finally understand where you are coming from. You are not necessarily opposed to the message, but the methods.
In light of your last post, I have to agree that there is a serious problem in the Church with the way we have handle the issue of homosexuality. I’ve had a few people come in our Church and I discerned the spirit of homosexuality. In every instance, I told them privately that I knew what they were dealing with and I prayed with them for deliverance. After praying, I told them about the freedom I experienced in Christ and that Christ can free them if they confess their sin TO HIM, renounce it and walk free from it. I also let them know that the temptations will not stop immediate, but as they resist the devil (temptation), it will become easier in time.
Our Church is small in number (about 100 people), but we would never allow anyone to attack people in the way you described. The young man who had just joined the Church no doubt came there because he wanted some help. Everyone struggling with homosexuality is not trying to hide out in the Church; many want help and desire to be delivered once and for all. Unfortunately, they know they will never be able to openly ask for help because of people like the Pastor you mentioned, and others who can not separate their hatred for homosexuality from their responsibility to minister to all people without discrimination.
The point you seem to be trying to drive home is that the Church should not make homosexuals seeking deliverance feel as though they are less than others or that God does not love them the same. While I believe that all sexual sins should be taken very seriously, our approach needs to be balanced with the love and compassion of God. Balance is the key. We should not have a relaxed attitude toward homosexuality or any other sin, but we must seek to (excuse my Greek) love the HADES out of them. I am still strongly against a practicing homosexual participating in the leadership of the Church, but I would never reject someone seeking help in walking free in Christ.
I’ve recently be confronted by an unsaved man that left his wife and children for a 16 year old girl. He also was involved in bestiality (internet, not actual participation). At first, I had a hard time talking to him. I was trying to encourage him and minister salvation to him, but I could help but think in my mind, “What kind of man would leave his wife for a teenager and on top of that watch women perform abominable acts with animals for enjoyment? He must have a reprobate mind. There’s no help for him.” It was at that moment that God began to deal with my heart. He reminded me of several passages of Scripture. Two verses stuck out in my mind:
Matthew 9:12-13
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
God reminded me that the Church is like a hospital. Hospitals are filled with all kinds of sick people. Some have illnesses that are easily treated, while other sick patients will need the help of specialists. Some patients are in and out and recover rather quickly, and yet others have extended stays accompanied with slow recuperation. A doctor can’t get upset with a patient for being sick; his job is to treat the illness. As Christians, our job is similar to that of a nurse. Jesus is the Great Physician, the Balm in Gilead, Jehovah Rahpa, the God of Healing. We are simply vessels or instruments at His disposal. Usually the doctor diagnoses the disease and prescribes treatment; but the nurses are responsible for providing the daily care the patient needs in order to make a speedy recovery. The doctor gives the orders and the nurses carry them out. The doctor (Jesus) has told us to walk in love and peach the gospel to the lost. At times nurses have to administer medications intravenously. This can be painful to the patient, if administered improperly. The nurse’s (Christian’s) job is to provide an atmosphere of comfort and security in order to facilitate healing. Jesus will do the healing if we create the atmosphere.
I still adamantly stand on my position against homosexuality and homosexuals working in the Church. However, I also realize that a skilled doctor or nurse must be prepared to offer the same amount of care to a person with a common cold as they do to a person dying of cancer. Regardless of whether the disease is communicable or incommunicable, all patients (sinners and struggling Christians) need to be cared for and supported indiscriminately.
We have spent a great deal of time identifying the problems on both sides of this issue. Perhaps now we can collectively devise a systematic plan to bring about a resolution. As Christians, we should be solution-focused in our ministerial endeavors. We must help those that are seeking help, but without compromising the integrity of God’s Word or Christianity itself. We should preach against sin in any and every form, and yet help those struggling to overcome sin to experience freedom in Christ.
This may be my last response on this subject, but I want you to know PROSTR8 that I appreciate the time you have taken and the stories you’ve shared. It’s not always easy to share personal things, yet I feel it was very beneficial.
God bless you,
Your Brother in Christ,