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Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: SisterCM on May 10, 2008, 06:15:53 PM
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What is the theory for a two-part melody?
When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once?
Thank you in advance.
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What is the theory for a two-part melody?
When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once?
Thank you in advance.
I'm confused. ?/? Are you saying one part sings, then another part sings (like a round)?
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I'm confused. ?/? Are you saying one part sings, then another part sings (like a round)?
If you look at the song As The Dear - Sheet Music- you have two-part melody notes in this song. You have principal part, which is your melody note, and you have counter-melody notes. Both parts are written on the staff, but the upper melody stem is turned up and the lower melody is turned down. You have to play both notes at the same time, now here is the confusing part for me, sometime the notes have different time value and you have to play them at the same time.
When I started doing research concerning this theory, I also found out that sometime the two notes are the same and you only play the note one time. This really blow my mind. Why would a song have a note with two stems, one down and one up?
Sjon do you play by sheet music? I understand that you are a music teacher.
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If you look at the song As The Dear - Sheet Music- you have two-part melody notes in this song. You have principal part, which is your melody note, and you have counter-melody notes. Both parts are written on the staff, but the upper melody stem is turned up and the lower melody is turned down. You have to play both notes at the same time, now here is the confusing part for me, sometime the notes have different time value and you have to play them at the same time.
When I started doing research concerning this theory, I also found out that sometime the two notes are the same and you only play the note one time. This really blow my mind. Why would a song have a note with two stems, one down and one up?
Sjon do you play by sheet music? I understand that you are a music teacher.
*shudders* Oooooooooo You're speaking in classical terms (or, that's how it reads to me) and I dislike classical terminology, greatly. It's why I haven't gone further in the development of my piano playing skills. :-\
What is sound like you're saying is the Soprano (top note:melody) and the Alto (bottom note: harmony) are both written on the Treble staff; which is fine and how it should be and shouldn't be confusing.
The reason who have the stems going in different directions for the same note is because there ARE times when both the Sop and Alto are singing in unison and that's how it's written on the staff.
The different time values (I'm assuming you mean different meter or time signature) could be one part having to sing the note longer than the other part. I can't really tell you anything more unless I saw it; I'm a visual learner. :-\
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What is the theory for a two-part melody?
When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once?
Thank you in advance.
The theory is just that, 2 different melodies going on at the same time. The stems represent which voice part is singing what note, as sjon explained. Soprano notes stem up, and Alto notes stem down. Both parts are written on the treble clef. If there were 4 parts to it, then in the bass clef u would have Tenor and Bass notes. Tenor notes stem up, and the Bass notes stem down.
If you were to go to a real theory class, you would learn that there all all kinds of rules of how to write in 4 parts. Things like all voices move opposite the Bass, no direct 5ths or octaves unless one voice steps and another voice jumps, root movement as much as possible, go to the nearest tone, etc.
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*shudders* Oooooooooo You're speaking in classical terms (or, that's how it reads to me) and I dislike classical terminology, greatly. It's why I haven't gone further in the development of my piano playing skills. :-\
What is sound like you're saying is the Soprano (top note:melody) and the Alto (bottom note: harmony) are both written on the Treble staff; which is fine and how it should be and shouldn't be confusing.
The reason who have the stems going in different directions for the same note is because there ARE times when both the Sop and Alto are singing in unison and that's how it's written on the staff.
The different time values (I'm assuming you mean different meter or time signature) could be one part having to sing the note longer than the other part. I can't really tell you anything more unless I saw it; I'm a visual learner. :-\
Ok, thanks. I am going to post a copy of the sheet music. Please take a look at the attachment.
The theory is just that, 2 different melodies going on at the same time. The stems represent which voice part is singing what note, as sjon explained. Soprano notes stem up, and Alto notes stem down. Both parts are written on the treble clef. If there were 4 parts to it, then in the bass clef u would have Tenor and Bass notes. Tenor notes stem up, and the Bass notes stem down.
ok, thanks.
If you were to go to a real theory class, you would learn that there all all kinds of rules of how to write in 4 parts. Things like all voices move opposite the Bass, no direct 5ths or octaves unless one voice steps and another voice jumps, root movement as much as possible, go to the nearest tone, etc.
That is a little to advance for me right now. I am still taking baby steps, maybe crawling a little bit sometimes.
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Oh think you are talking about the slur line above the notes right? I think it means you have to play all the notes under the slur in Legato, i.e without any pause in sound moving from one note to the next.
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Oh think you are talking about the slur line above the notes right? I think it means you have to play all the notes under the slur in Legato, i.e without any pause in sound moving from one note to the next.
No, I am talking about the notes. Please read my post again. :)
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Ok, thanks. I am going to post a copy of the sheet music. Please take a look at the attachment.
ok, thanks.
That is a little to advance for me right now. I am still taking baby steps, maybe crawling a little bit sometimes.
Ok, I took a look at the sheet music. It's like I thought it would be. Let's just take the first measure. You have the Soprano line (melody) "singing" an F#, then two A's while the Alto is "singing" a D then moving to an E.
The Tenors are "singing" an A while the Basses are "singing" a D. It looks like standard music notation to me. I can take a better look at it tomorrow at work, if you'd like.
What is your question or confusion, again? :-\
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Ok, I took a look at the sheet music. It's like I thought it would be. Let's just take the first measure. You have the Soprano line (melody) "singing" an F#, then two A's while the Alto is "singing" a D then moving to an E.
The Tenors are "singing" an A while the Basses are "singing" a D. It looks like standard music notation to me. I can take a better look at it tomorrow at work, if you'd like.
What is your question or confusion, again? :-\
You and T-Block answered almost all of my questions except for one.
When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once?
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You and T-Block answered almost all of my questions except for one.
When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once?
I think this is your answer
The reason who have the stems going in different directions for the same note is because there ARE times when both the Sop and Alto are singing in unison and that's how it's written on the staff.
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When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once?
I didn't find that occurrence anywhere. All I saw (in the Tenor and Bass line) was both parts singing the same note indicated by the two stems going in different directions (one up and one down). ?/?
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I think this is your answer
Sorry, I missed that. Thanks.
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I didn't find that occurrence anywhere. All I saw (in the Tenor and Bass line) was both parts singing the same note indicated by the two stems going in different directions (one up and one down). ?/?
no, this occurrence is not on the sheet music.
When I checked out more sheet music that have two part writing, I found out that sometime the two notes are the same with stems going in different directions and you only play the note one time. When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once? why not just write one note?
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no, this occurrence is not on the sheet music.
When I checked out more sheet music that have two part writing, I found out that sometime the two notes are the same with stems going in different directions and you only play the note one time. When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once? why not just write one note?
Because its for the singers. If the not just wasnt there, then the altos would not sing that note
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Because its for the singers. If the not just wasnt there, then the altos would not sing that note
Ok, I got it now. That is not for the musician, but for the singers. Just bare with me, I know that some of my questions are elementary but I am trying hard to get this.
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Ok, I got it now. That is not for the musician, but for the singers. Just bare with me, I know that some of my questions are elementary but I am trying hard to get this.
There is no such thing as a stupid question, so dont be afraid to ask. Even if it seems elementry.
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There is no such thing as a stupid question, so dont be afraid to ask. Even if it seems elementry.
Thanks I needed that! Good night!
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no, this occurrence is not on the sheet music.
When I checked out more sheet music that have two part writing, I found out that sometime the two notes are the same with stems going in different directions and you only play the note one time. When both parts are the same why have two notes when you only play them once? why not just write one note?
You're going to have to show me an example. I'm just not understanding what you're saying. ?/? :-\
Depending on the position of the stem will determine which part will sing said note, as U13 stated, I believe.
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You're going to have to show me an example. I'm just not understanding what you're saying. ?/? :-\
Depending on the position of the stem will determine which part will sing said note, as U13 stated, I believe.
Good morning! :)
The example is not a gospel song. It is a classical song. I don't know if it is ok to post this song. Is it okay to e-mail it to you?
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Good morning! :)
The example is not a gospel song. It is a classical song. I don't know if it is ok to post this song. Is it okay to e-mail it to you?
Put it in PDF like, 'As the Deer'. It'll probably be too big for my email. :-[ :-\
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OH Now i see what you are talking about. In the first measure there is that D stacked on the E and they have different values. I have never seen that before.
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OH Now i see what you are talking about. In the first measure there is that D stacked on the E and they have different values. I have never seen that before.
No, there isn't. The altos are singing the D for two beats (indicated by the half note) then they sing an E for two beats (indicated by a half note
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No, there isn't. The altos are singing the D for two beats (indicated by the half note) then they sing an E for two beats (indicated by a half note
So which does the musician play? or do you hold the D for the whole measure and play the other notes?
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So which does the musician play? or do you hold the D for the whole measure and play the other notes?
The musician could play the alto line as written (which is what I described above).
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Look, let's just deal with the first measure.
Again, the soprano has the melody (which the musician could play with their R.H. pinky finger or use the suggested fingering above the notes).
The alto or harmony part can be played using the musician's R.H. index finger.
Am I making sense?
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Look, let's just deal with the first measure.
Again, the soprano has the melody (which the musician could play with their R.H. pinky finger or use the suggested fingering above the notes).
The alto or harmony part can be played using the musician's R.H. index finger.
Am I making sense?
I understand. What i am asking is that since teh two notes have different values, should i as a musician hold down the D longer or should i ignore the time values and assume they have the same value. If that is then the case, which not'es time value should i consider? THe E or the D?
I really hope that makes sense.
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They have the same value; 2 beats. so just play each one for 2 beats.
I still dont see what we were talking about before
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I understand. What i am asking is that since teh two notes have different values, should i as a musician hold down the D longer or should i ignore the time values and assume they have the same value. If that is then the case, which not'es time value should i consider? THe E or the D?
I really hope that makes sense.
They have the same value; 2 beats. so just play each one for 2 beats.
I still dont see what we were talking about before
What he said.
I'm still not sure of the confusion (especially since we're talking about the first measure only). The only different note is the quarter note in the soprano (melody): the F# going to the A (while the altos sing the D); then the sopranos stay on the A (while the altos go to the E).
Again, I don't understand the confusion.
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Never mind. Thanks a lot though.
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Never mind. Thanks a lot though.
?/? :-\ Didn't mean to offend.
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?/? :-\ Didn't mean to offend.
I wasn't offended at all. :)
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I wasn't offended at all. :)
Cool. :)
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What he said.
I'm still not sure of the confusion (especially since we're talking about the first measure only). The only different note is the quarter note in the soprano (melody): the F# going to the A (while the altos sing the D); then the sopranos stay on the A (while the altos go to the E).
Again, I don't understand the confusion.
The D is a half note and the F# is a quarter note. Now if I understand this correctly you play the half note for a half beat and the quarter not for a quarter beat. So I would play the D for a half beat and the F# for a quarter beat moving to the A, which is another quarter beat, then moving to the E & A which are both half notes. Therefore, you play them a half beat. Correct me if I am wrong.
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The D is a half note and the F# is a quarter note. Now if I understand this correctly you play the half note for a half beat and the quarter not for a quarter beat. So I would play the D for a half beat and the F# for a quarter beat moving to the A, which is another quarter beat, then moving to the E & A which are both half notes. Therefore, you play them a half beat. Correct me if I am wrong.
The D is a half note (a half note is played for TWO beats) The F# is a quarter note (a quarter note is played for ONE beat).
The breakdown of note values is based on the whole note (which is played for FOUR beats).
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The D is a half note (a half note is played for TWO beats) The F# is a quarter note (a quarter note is played for ONE beat).
Yeah you are correct because this song has a 4/4-time measurement.
Thanks.
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Yeah you are correct because this song has a 4/4-time measurement.
Exactly. So, is it clearer, now? :)
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Exactly. So, is it clearer, now? :)
yes, for now. :D
I will post the other song later today or in the morning.
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yes, for now. :D
I will post the other song later today or in the morning.
No problem.
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I don't know if u know this or not, but the PDF file you have SisterCM looks like the music for the piano to play. If a chorus was supposed to sing that, there would be an idication of it somewhere. Also, there would be all 4 parts listed first with the piano stuff at the bottom.
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I don't know if u know this or not, but the PDF file you have SisterCM looks like the music for the piano to play. If a chorus was supposed to sing that, there would be an idication of it somewhere. Also, there would be all 4 parts listed first with the piano stuff at the bottom.
Yes, I know. The dynamics and foot pedal notations are listed on the sheet music this helps to identify that this sheet music is to be played on the keys. Correct me if I am incorrect.
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Yes, I know. The dynamics and foot pedal notations are listed on the sheet music this helps to identify that this sheet music is to be played on the keys. Correct me if I am incorrect.
Dat's correct, just making sure u knew.
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Dat's correct, just making sure u knew.
Today I realized that I have been practicing and learning to read the notes that I have missed learning the timing and measurements of the notes. The songs that I am familiar with I can play with few mistakes. The songs that I have never heard I have a harder time practicing and learning them.
I have finished my level 1 book and have started level 2. With the level 2, I bought a CD with all of the songs that are in my book. When I bought this CD, I thought this was a good ideal now I am not so sure. If I can only play the songs that, I hear I feel I may be defeating the purpose of learning to play by sheet music.
Any suggestions or advice?
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I happened to ask my piano teacher a similar question about a month ago.
I hope this helps.
Choral music type voicing can be applied to instrumental music. This is sometimes referred to as polyphonic voicing. When the voices reside in the same measure on the same staff, the voices are often distinguished by stem direction just as T-Block stated in a previous post.
Just as T-Block stated previously, there are many rules for notating “polyphonic” voices. Usually the arranger wants to account for all of the beats in that measure for each voice.
For example in the pdf , measure 8 , (Treble Clef) the first voice is a whole note. The second voice consists of a quarter note rest, followed by a quarter note and a half note. Both voices show the full 4 beats of the measure.
In Measure 17 (Bass Clef) there is an example of the same note with the two stems. Just as T-Block said previously the two voices are playing the same note at the same time. But you only play the note once. Part 1 consists of 3 quarter notes, 2 eighth notes (1 beat) for a total of 4 beats. Part 2 consists of a dotted half note (3 beats) plus the shared quarter note. If you play Part 1 separately you would include the shared note. If you play Part 2 separately you would include the shared note. If the arranger did not want you to include the shared note for one of the parts, then that Part would have a rest there instead of the shared note.
In Measure 1 and similar measures, Part 2 consists of 2 beats only. Some notation programs will force you to add the two beat rest to Part 2 in measure 1. But in reality the rest is implied and is omitted.
This is a very nice arrangement of “As the Deer”.
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Today I realized that I have been practicing and learning to read the notes that I have missed learning the timing and measurements of the notes. The songs that I am familiar with I can play with few mistakes. The songs that I have never heard I have a harder time practicing and learning them.
I have finished my level 1 book and have started level 2. With the level 2, I bought a CD with all of the songs that are in my book. When I bought this CD, I thought this was a good ideal now I am not so sure. If I can only play the songs that, I hear I feel I may be defeating the purpose of learning to play by sheet music.
Any suggestions or advice?
Check out what was said in this post. http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,56111.0.html
I especially liked what littlelamb said. You must work at it. If reading music was all about playing only what you never heard then why do so many publishers include CDs? Since the composer or your teacher is not with you, how do you know that you played the song correctly? Having the song on the CD is a great learning tool. Play the song on the CD. Look at the sheet music. Get all the information you can from the sheet music before you even play the first note. Since you just finished Level 1 you should now be ready for Level 2. Just take it slow. Don't try to play the whole song at first. I like to look for the toughest measures. Learn them first. Look for patterns, measures that repeat themselves, and measures that may have different notes but same rhythms.
When you do play the entire song, play it at a slow tempo. Aim for accuracy. Practice the parts that are not smooth. Once you get accuracy, then you slowly work your way up to tempo.
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yes, for now. :D
I will post the other song later today or in the morning.
As stated yesterday.
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I happened to ask my piano teacher a similar question about a month ago.
I hope this helps.
Choral music type voicing can be applied to instrumental music. This is sometimes referred to as polyphonic voicing. When the voices reside in the same measure on the same staff, the voices are often distinguished by stem direction just as T-Block stated in a previous post.
Just as T-Block stated previously, there are many rules for notating ?polyphonic? voices. Usually the arranger wants to account for all of the beats in that measure for each voice.
For example in the pdf , measure 8 , (Treble Clef) the first voice is a whole note. The second voice consists of a quarter note rest, followed by a quarter note and a half note. Both voices show the full 4 beats of the measure.
In Measure 17 (Bass Clef) there is an example of the same note with the two stems. Just as T-Block said previously the two voices are playing the same note at the same time. But you only play the note once. Part 1 consists of 3 quarter notes, 2 eighth notes (1 beat) for a total of 4 beats. Part 2 consists of a dotted half note (3 beats) plus the shared quarter note. If you play Part 1 separately you would include the shared note. If you play Part 2 separately you would include the shared note. If the arranger did not want you to include the shared note for one of the parts, then that Part would have a rest there instead of the shared note.
In Measure 1 and similar measures, Part 2 consists of 2 beats only. Some notation programs will force you to add the two beat rest to Part 2 in measure 1. But in reality the rest is implied and is omitted.
This is a very nice arrangement of ?As the Deer?.
This is a good breakdown of these two measures. I will print this and go over the measures once again to make sure that I understand. Thank you.
Yes, I think this is a beautiful song. I look forward to adding it to my collection of songs that I can play.
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Ok, this PDF is saying what I've been saying. The two parts are indicated by the upper and lower stems.
Just because they may have the same note, at some point, you still have to indicate who is singing the note AND for how long.
For example, on the first page of the TW-PART WRITING paper (pg. 86) after the paragraph that starts, "When both parts are written on the same staff....", in the sixth measure you see the upper and lower melody playing/singing the same note. BUT, the lower melody is playing/singing the note for 2 beats, while the upper melody starts on that note but moves on.
And, in that same example, in measures 7 & 8, both melody parts are singing the same note for the same amount of time; BUT, it's still two parts. Without the stems, one would think it was simply one part.
Understand?
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Ok, this PDF is saying what I've been saying. The two parts are indicated by the upper and lower stems.
Just because they may have the same note, at some point, you still have to indicate who is singing the note AND for how long.
For example, on the first page of the TW-PART WRITING paper (pg. 86) after the paragraph that starts, "When both parts are written on the same staff....", in the sixth measure you see the upper and lower melody playing/singing the same note. BUT, the lower melody is playing/singing the note for 2 beats, while the upper melody starts on that note but moves on.
And, in that same example, in measures 7 & 8, both melody parts are singing the same note for the same amount of time; BUT, it's still two parts. Without the stems, one would think it was simply one part.
Understand?
Yes, I do. Thank you.
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Yes, I do. Thank you.
Cool. I thought my explanation might've been too long.
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Cool. I thought my explanation might've been too long.
Naw, my attention span seems to be getting longer.:D
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Check out what was said in this post. [url]http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,56111.0.html[/url]
I especially liked what littlelamb said. You must work at it. If reading music was all about playing only what you never heard then why do so many publishers include CDs? Since the composer or your teacher is not with you, how do you know that you played the song correctly? Having the song on the CD is a great learning tool. Play the song on the CD. Look at the sheet music. Get all the information you can from the sheet music before you even play the first note. Since you just finished Level 1 you should now be ready for Level 2. Just take it slow. Don't try to play the whole song at first. I like to look for the toughest measures. Learn them first. Look for patterns, measures that repeat themselves, and measures that may have different notes but same rhythms.
When you do play the entire song, play it at a slow tempo. Aim for accuracy. Practice the parts that are not smooth. Once you get accuracy, then you slowly work your way up to tempo.
Good advice. Thank you.