LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Main => Ministry, M.O.M, Praise Teams and Choirs => Topic started by: kodacolor on May 10, 2008, 06:21:58 PM
-
Hi,
At my church there’s this guy who plays guitar in with the musician’s ministry, but he’s not a member. He’s a friend of a member who’s in the musician’s ministry with me. When he first came I thought it would be for that Sunday or a couple of Sundays. It’s been about 2-3 months now and he’s still playing, but he’s not a member. He’s probably one of the nicest musicians I’ve ever met, he’s a great teacher, he’s all around awesome, but one of the rules for all ministries in the church is that you have to be a member. (The other one being you have to have accepted Christ your personal Lord and Savior.)
Today at practice one of the guys in the choir brought in his friend who plays the 6 string bass to play with us. I’m starting to think this is getting out of hand. I could care less if we have 10 member or 10,000 members, I would feel better if the people in the ministry would be members of our church because our ministry is a part of our church. I feel that people are treating the ministry as a jam session.
Another scenario:
Lets say you have a church home and you get paid for playing at another church one Sunday out the month would you say that that situation matches the above situation? (This is not my situation.) In the above situation none of the musicians are being paid nor are they going to be paid. Everyone’s volunteering their time.
So my question is what do you think about talented non member playing in church as regular musicians? Please explain your answer. Am I over reacting? Is there anywhere in the Bible that talks about something like this?
-
I believe that if someone is playing regularly at church, they should be a member of the church. This is something that the chior president, M.O.M, and the pastor should address. I know that there are churches that pay musicans to play even if they are not members. This is because some people in the church are just sitting on their gift and not using them. This person might be a great addition to the music. But, I'ts more important to know that their soul has been saved, and that they understand why they're playing and who there are playing for. I believe that someone needs to invite this person to jion the church. If they come to church every sunday, they most likely want to stay.
-
I've been playing at a church for the past 4 months, and I havent joined, nor do I plan on joining.
They dont pay me, but I'm not that good so I'm just thankful for the opprotunity to have the hands on experience of being the organist. The Pastor did ask me if I planned on joinig and I told him no. I dont belive in joining if I dont plan on staying long, long term. I'm still a member of my home church, though I dont know If I'll ever return there. thats a whole 'nother story
I dont think musicians need to be a member in order to play. There are many many churches that have good relationships with hired, non member musicians.
I say if you have a musician who will play for free who is skilled and faithful, you better keep him, cuz there arent many out there. I know I dont plan on playing for free forever.
-
I dont think musicians need to be a member in order to play.
How come?
I know I dont plan on playing for free forever.
See that's that thing...I seriously doubt that we're going to pay him at all. We as a church didn't ask him to come, his friend thought it would be cool if he came so she invited him. Heck, the pastor doesn't even really get paid. There's a "Pastor's Gift" but he says you don't have to if you don't want to. (Unlike at my old church were they'd say "Our pastor doesn't get a salary. He lives off of what we give him") Also, I doubt we have the money for it. (we're a pretty small church. We probably seat like 50 people maybe less..)
-
How come?
See that's that thing...I seriously doubt that we're going to pay him at all. We as a church didn't ask him to come, his friend thought it would be cool if he came so she invited him. Heck, the pastor doesn't even really get paid. There's a "Pastor's Gift" but he says you don't have to if you don't want to. (Unlike at my old church were they'd say "Our pastor doesn't get a salary. He lives off of what we give him") Also, I doubt we have the money for it. (we're a pretty small church. We probably seat like 50 people maybe less..)
The church I play for has an attendence of about 100, and all them people are poor, so I dont expect to ever get paid by them.
I dont think they need to be members because, to many muscains this is their job. As an employer, you cant make someone join a church. I do think that churches should raise members to be musicians, then they wouldnt have to hire outside people. I dont think it makes much of a difference wether you are a member or not, as long as you are saved, anointed and faithful
Suggested reading: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,54413.0.html
-
I personally don't see anything wrong with it. I just finished working with my friend who brought me on as the choir director to get them started. It started out as once in a while and turned into every Sunday. I have my own church home, so there was no intention on joining the church.
-
I agree that if you have talented musicians who are freely volunteering their time, they should appreciate the freebie.
The only problem with musicians volunteering on a consistent basis is more of a risk for the church than the musician. What I mean is if the church gets used to the volunteer musician, they may start depending on him/ her. He can put the church in a bind musically if he decides to leave. And there's nothing that would hold him if there's no formal arrangement (pay agreement/ contract etc...).
Member/ non-member, either way they can still up and leave whenever they get good and ready.
-
I personally think, it depends on the musician. In some cases, some musicians can play for three different churches, and they not be a member of one! Me personally, it is about the PREACHED word at the location, and then the music. I would talk to this guy and find out what he plans on doing, if he is playing for ya'll and is coming to church consistently for three months, then joining the church shouldn't be a problem, he is already doing the duties a member is anyway!!
-
I have been in ministry for over 25 years. Until I started singing and playing in multi-cultural churches, I was never paid to do music. I did get offerings when I preached. Being a Creative Arts Pastor for the past 6 years, I look at the stage a little different. I am very selective as to who goes on stage. I just left a full time position to start a new church. So, I don't get paid at this point. But it is the spiritual aspect that I look at. I need someone that is commited to the vision of the house. I don't need a hireling. It isn't really fair to the church to bring in someone who is talented and then "poof" they are gone. That causes too much chaos. Plus it isn't fair to the other musicians that are faithful every week and commited to the vision of the house.
If you are the leader, it is really your call. But that is just the way I run things in the music departments that I lead.
I do, however, invite guest musicians if we have an outreach event or special event. Most of the time I do that to get that musican a chance to play with us. There is no commitment involved in that. And that gives the person a chance to test the waters with our group. I have had a few stay with us after we invited them to play for a special event.
That's how I operate. Others will do differently. There isn't any thing really "set in stone" on that. Just use wise judgement and let God lead you as to how you should lead your department.
-
why do you feel a person needs to be a member'
if they are a christian they are a member of the larger body of christ.
I have had this conversation before
and I know there are many who disagree with me
But I have played for churches for two years without being a member
I was even the pastors Armor bearer
and this was a baptist church of a fair size
I personally feel that if a preacher who is not a member can preach in a pulpit as a guest minister
then why cant a guest musician minister in the band pit
maybe it is not meant for him to be a member maybe it is for a season that his gift is shared
and that is exactly what is happening it is a gift that is shared
most churches have to pay for a (non member to play)
your church is blessed with someone willing to tithe their gifts in your church
but you are looking this gift horse in the mouth
if the man is a man of God
then I dont see what is the problem
we are levites and levites were seperate a separate tribe that ministered to all the other tribes
i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites
the levites were a separate tribe
so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate
the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate
also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"
Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).
The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).
After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).
Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:
The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.
The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).
The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).
Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).
here is what I found on the levites
-
Guest preachers are invited, normally. And, they don't preach for weeks on end the way a "guest" musician would.
Additionally, the "guest" musician would be invited to play (which, I would think, would mean that the "guest" also attended rehearsal. This is a church service not an appearance on, "David Letterman").
Furthermore, "guest" preachers only come once, or even, on occasion. And, they work solo (meaning, they're the only one responsible for the preaching on that day). A "guest" musician is working with a group of people, as a result, they must learn to 'gel' with group.
It's difficult enough dealing with members, who agree with and want to further the vision of the house, coming and going, for whatever reason (i.e. a church that is near an Army base is very transient) leaving fewer voices or taking their particular instrument (say, a bass) with them.
Once or twice, cool. Come for a time, the question has to be asked, "Why not become a member?"
-
maybe it is not meant for him to be a member maybe it is for a season that his gift is shared
I think thats it. Churches want to keep musicians for more than a season. They figure if you become a member then you wont leave as fast as you would if you were not a member
-
I think thats it. Churches want to keep musicians for more than a season. They figure if you become a member then you wont leave as fast as you would if you were not a member
I dont know S jonathon and I have had this debate before and many others
but check out the page 5 on this thread
there are some scriptures about the levites that will help us understand i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites
the levites were a separate tribe
so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate
the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate
also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"
Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).
The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).
After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).
Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:
The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.
The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).
The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).
Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).
here is what I found on the levites
that God has set us aside
I am just not convinced to be honest in the spirit I dont feel That God requires his musicians to become members\
God never spoke to me to be a member of any church
I pray on all I do concerning ministry
and I never felt the holy spirit encourage me to be a member.of a church since I have been ministering
It is not like I work any harder as a member than I do when I wasnt a member.
But this is not something anyone will be able to convince me of
this is only something God can reveal to me if that is his will.
Nor will I try any further to convince anyone of my opinion and I will stay clear of this debate in the future
-
Making a musician become a member may be a round-about way of a church putting "dibs" on a musician.
-
Making a musician become a member may be a round-about way of a church putting "dibs" on a musician.
?/?
Two questions:
a. Why isn't this the same attitude when it comes to a pastor of a church?
b. What is the "problem" with musicians having a set church home?
I'll say this, as long as the "guest" musician isn't looking for compensation, then it sits a bit easier, for ME.
I maintain that consistency is more apt to occur when the musician is a member. I can't wrap my head around it any other way. :-\
-
I maintain that consistency is more apt to occur when the musician is a member. I can't wrap my head around it any other way. :-\
I guess it depends on how you look at a musician: as just an employee or as a minister in the church?
I've heard it said that musicians are "flighty" - If your musician is a non-member, then that's a risk that you take.
If a musician joins a church just for the sake of "following the rules" so they can play, to me that's not a genuine reason to join nor does it show any real commitment. You have to ask the question "If this person wasn't playing, would they still be a member of this church?"
If you want consistency in a musician (non-member or not) set up a contract/ payment terms.
-
I guess it depends on how you look at a musician: as just an employee or as a minister in the church?
I've heard it said that musicians are "flighty" - If your musician is a non-member, then that's a risk that you take.
If a musician joins a church just for the sake of "following the rules" so they can play, to me that's not a genuine reason to join nor does it show any real commitment. You have to ask the question "If this person wasn't playing, would they still be a member of this church?"
If you want consistency in a musician (non-member or not) set up a contract/ payment terms.
I agree; which is why I say what I say. The use of music is a ministry just like the sermon; as a result, we need to stop taking it lightly.
Your last question is a GREAT question.
-
Rules.......Rules...........Rules. What are your rules? I am going to give you an actual scenario that played itsself out in church. There was an organist who was pretty good. They only wanted certain people to play when they did. So no guitar, bass, etc. One person show. Whenthe regular drummer was not at church, brought in someone from the outside-although there was another drummer at the church. Big revivals/appreciations/etc. called all of their friends to come play and act as if they didnt know they were coming. One Sunday (when I used to leave my amp& equipment at church), somebody decided that they would plug a keyboard up. They unplugged it when they saw me come through the door. But they failed to turn it off. To make a long story short, its ok when people want to come in and share in your service. But if they become permanent fixture, they need to join the church. Again, what is the purpose of playing? But you have to set some groud rules with these folks. Start with the people who invited them. You are not trying to run anyone off, but amongst musicians-word travels fast. And what is taking place and what actually is being passed on by word of mouth could be on oppisite ends of the spectrum. Do it in a nice calm way. Becase if you are not careful, you willl be overrun by musicians who don't need to be there and you will lose control. I would ask your pastors opinion first though to get his input. Therefore when you do what you need to do, he already knows. Because folks will tell on you.
-
Thanks for all your input! It has been helping me see the issue from different angles. The ministry had a meeting today and the Pastor explain the rule a bit. I was looking at it the wrong way. I can't go into it right now cause I'm busy with chords for tomorrow. (Technically I shouldn't even be on here but I thought I'd give an up date.
Thank ya much! ;D
-
If churches want musicians to be members, then they should raise up and train members to be musicains and not try to force hired musicians to be members.
There is nothing wrong with hiring a professional musician to play at your church. Its been done for many many years. I think the problem is that some musicians dont know how to work with a professional decorum, and many black churches dont want to treat musicians like profesionals. They will treat everone else who does a service to the church in a professional maner, except for the musicians. They have no problem paying the landscaper but dont wanna pay the musicians.
SORRY FOR RANTING
-
I've been playing at a church for the past 4 months, and I havent joined, nor do I plan on joining.
They dont pay me, but I'm not that good so I'm just thankful for the opprotunity to have the hands on experience of being the organist. The Pastor did ask me if I planned on joinig and I told him no. I dont belive in joining if I dont plan on staying long, long term. I'm still a member of my home church, though I dont know If I'll ever return there. thats a whole 'nother story
I dont think musicians need to be a member in order to play. There are many many churches that have good relationships with hired, non member musicians.
I say if you have a musician who will play for free who is skilled and faithful, you better keep him, cuz there arent many out there. I know I dont plan on playing for free forever.
Nobody's talking about paid musicians. Keep up. ::)
-
Nobody's talking about paid musicians. Keep up. ::)
then they should just be glad that someone who is actually good, is playing for free
-
then they should just be glad that someone who is actually good, is playing for free
Uh...sure. :-\
-
then they should just be glad that someone who is actually good, is playing for free
:-\ O...k
-
I never said the other musicans weren't good. I just said this guy was good. Nobody in the musican's ministry at my church is being paid.
-
I know I said I wasnt going to say anymore on this
but I have to say this
Whether you are a pastor a Minister of music
or a deacon who has some real say whether a musician stays or goes
I encourage you to pray on each and every decision and do not be led by your intellect
or feelings
or pressure from others
or what even seems right
because God works in his own way
I havent heard anyone in this entire thread
quote the bible or talk about being lead of the spirit
only what they think and feel
each and every case should be taken on a case by case basis
to have a blanket rule and policy limits how God may be positioning to bless you and your congregation
and even the musician in question
-
i'm just reading the whole thread so im kinda late ;), but me personally...no i wouldn't let non-members play at my church under conditions b/c for one, non-member musicians sometimes are those musicians that give the music ministry hell b/c they really just play at the church to say their a MOM or a musician somewhere and on the other hand deep down inside really don't support the vision of the church they play for. In which these are ususally the musicians that don't have time to be in rehearsal for over 1 hour nor practice until Sunday and the ones who don't go with the church pastor on any engagements and show up on Sundays whenever they want.... But that goes two ways b/c if there is a musician that is a member of the church who's willing to play they should be given first choice as a musician. However, I think some musicians in churches sit down b/c they feel that they aren't ready just yet to play for a church and then some musicians just isn't to the point yet where they can deal with the different personalities and criticism that tags behind a musician
-
i'm just reading the whole thread so im kinda late ;), but me personally...no i wouldn't let non-members play at my church under conditions b/c for one, non-member musicians sometimes are those musicians that give the music ministry hell b/c they really just play at the church to say their a MOM or a musician somewhere and on the other hand deep down inside really don't support the vision of the church they play for. In which these are ususally the musicians that don't have time to be in rehearsal for over 1 hour nor practice until Sunday and the ones who don't go with the church pastor on any engagements and show up on Sundays whenever they want.... But that goes two ways b/c if there is a musician that is a member of the church who's willing to play they should be given first choice as a musician. However, I think some musicians in churches sit down b/c they feel that they aren't ready just yet to play for a church and then some musicians just isn't to the point yet where they can deal with the different personalities and criticism that tags behind a musician
In the case that you get an unreliable or insubordinate musician, he should be let go . The only reason he (or she) would do those things is because the church lets him. Churches should stop letting unanointed people play, just because they gotta few hot chords. But churches are too afraid to go without music.
Welcome to LGM giftedone88
-
First, I'll say it is totally and completely up to the leadership of the church to set policy. Whether that policy is to let non-members play or to specifically exclude non-members. Set the policy and make certain everyone is aware of it. It has to come from the leadership and it has to be followed by all.
Now, here's my situation(s)
For years I played bass at churches where I was not a member. I would have LOVED to have played at my church, but at the time we were stuck in a tradition of "music = piano &/or organ". Okay, fine. So I played where I was welcomed to play. Sometimes I was paid. Sometimes I wasn't. Even when I was paid, the money typically went back into the collection plate or to upgrade equipment used exclusively for that church (strings, practice amp). I was not a member and knew I would not be a member, because I already had a church home that I was very happy with. I provided them a service. They provided me an opportunity to hone my craft.
Eventually my church added an early morning service. I have been in charge of the music for that service. I brought in a keyboard player from one of the other churches I used to play at. I knew he had no intention of joining our church, but since our service was held early, he could play at our service and then make it to his own church in time for his service. I doubt I would have hired someone who had NO church home. I definitely would not have hired anyone who did not possess and display the spirit of Christ.
That keyboard player took a job in another state, so I hired another keyboard player who leads an ad hoc group that I play for. Eventually he hired me to play at his church. So now every Sunday, he starts at my church in the morning, then travels cross town to play at his own church. On two or three Sundays a month, I start at my church and then drive cross town to his church. I don't expect that he will ever join my church and I know that I will never join his church, but we have become great friends and musical collaborators and we both provide dedicated service to both congregations. I see nothing wrong with that.
If, however, his church decided that they wanted to institute a policy that you had to be a member to be a musician, I would gracefully step aside.
Peace,
James
-
First, I'll say it is totally and completely up to the leadership of the church to set policy. Whether that policy is to let non-members play or to specifically exclude non-members. Set the policy and make certain everyone is aware of it. It has to come from the leadership and it has to be followed by all.
Now, here's my situation(s)
For years I played bass at churches where I was not a member. I would have LOVED to have played at my church, but at the time we were stuck in a tradition of "music = piano &/or organ". Okay, fine. So I played where I was welcomed to play. Sometimes I was paid. Sometimes I wasn't. Even when I was paid, the money typically went back into the collection plate or to upgrade equipment used exclusively for that church (strings, practice amp). I was not a member and knew I would not be a member, because I already had a church home that I was very happy with. I provided them a service. They provided me an opportunity to hone my craft.
Eventually my church added an early morning service. I have been in charge of the music for that service. I brought in a keyboard player from one of the other churches I used to play at. I knew he had no intention of joining our church, but since our service was held early, he could play at our service and then make it to his own church in time for his service. I doubt I would have hired someone who had NO church home. I definitely would not have hired anyone who did not possess and display the spirit of Christ.
That keyboard player took a job in another state, so I hired another keyboard player who leads an ad hoc group that I play for. Eventually he hired me to play at his church. So now every Sunday, he starts at my church in the morning, then travels cross town to play at his own church. On two or three Sundays a month, I start at my church and then drive cross town to his church. I don't expect that he will ever join my church and I know that I will never join his church, but we have become great friends and musical collaborators and we both provide dedicated service to both congregations. I see nothing wrong with that.
If, however, his church decided that they wanted to institute a policy that you had to be a member to be a musician, I would gracefully step aside.
Peace,
James
& that there is a RAPP!!!
-
It doesn’t really matter if their members or not. As long as they are playing for God and living a faithful life to Lord. I started helping a local pastor. We started with just 15 members. Now we are hitting over 100 and only been two years this coming November. I am the only member that is a musician from my church. The crazy thing is that we have one of the most awesome worship team in town. God has really bless our music dept. We have then invited to minister and host worship services. Our musicians are from different denomination and cultural. And I have a bass player, guitar player, 2 sometime 3 keyboards a awesome drummer, percussionist. Our vocal are now member but started off from different churches. That was their choice and felt lead of God to move over with us. Most of the band members are pastors kids so they are tied up helping out at their local churches. But they love fellowshipping with us. We are all going to be doing together in haven anyways! Right?
-
This whole issue is just another example of how churches make rules that are not based on biblical principal. Someone please tell me where in the bible it says musicians have to be members to minister.
-
It doesn’t really matter if their members or not. As long as they are playing for God and living a faithful life to Lord. I started helping a local pastor. We started with just 15 members. Now we are hitting over 100 and only been two years this coming November. I am the only member that is a musician from my church. The crazy thing is that we have one of the most awesome worship team in town. God has really bless our music dept. We have then invited to minister and host worship services. Our musicians are from different denomination and cultural. And I have a bass player, guitar player, 2 sometime 3 keyboards a awesome drummer, percussionist. Our vocal are now member but started off from different churches. That was their choice and felt lead of God to move over with us. Most of the band members are pastors kids so they are tied up helping out at their local churches. But they love fellowshipping with us. We are all going to be doing together in haven anyways! Right?
Now this is the essence of it all 8)
-
This whole issue is just another example of how churches make rules that are not based on biblical principal. Someone please tell me where in the bible it says musicians have to be members to minister.
You mean besides the Levites leading the music? ::) :-\
-
You mean besides the Levites leading the music? ::) :-\
you got any verses?
-
you got any verses?
The Levites were consecrated to do a LOT of things within the chu'ch. ;)
http://www.bible-topics.com/Levites-The.html (http://www.bible-topics.com/Levites-The.html)
-
The Levites were consecrated to do a LOT of things within the chu'ch. ;)
[url]http://www.bible-topics.com/Levites-The.html[/url] ([url]http://www.bible-topics.com/Levites-The.html[/url])
Thanks. I'ma read it l8er
-
This whole issue is just another example of how churches make rules that are not based on biblical principal. Someone please tell me where in the bible it says musicians have to be members to minister.
You said it, right. Let the church say Yeeesss!! May the lord watch........ ;)
-
You said it, right. Let the church say Yeeesss!! May the lord watch........ ;)
You do know that's a prayer of mistrust, right? ::) :-\
And, you must have stop right at that post. You should read further. ;) 8)
-
You do know that's a prayer of mistrust, right? ::) :-\
And, you must have stop right at that post. You should read further. ;) 8)
Ummm? Hmm, yeah, what you said!! ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/? ?/?
-
there are clearly some very strong issues
I can probably quote chronicles where david appointed various people to minister in song and on instruments
it was assumed that at that time because of the communal living system they were probably members so to speak because it wasnt as though there were several houses of worship to choose from everyone went to the same temple
so other then that there is no where that the bible says we should be members
so yes lets start to look at scripture to solve this debate
I noticed when I said that at no time did the holy spirit ever convict me or lead me to become a member at any church I played.
any church I ever played I always put God first and sought to help that ministry grow because that was my charge and my stewardship was that church.
the church where I am playing now I became a member because the pastor said he would license me
I moved probably ahead of God
and it was the worst mistake
The pastor is not mature
and full of pride
so there are a lot of issues
I am not comfortable being a member I like the people but it is hypocritical for me to really be a member since I am not in agreement with the pastors approach to this ministry
that being said
the ultimate thing that everyone on this thread should be concerned with is what does God want you to do,
not what do you think or what do you want to do but what does
God want you to do,.
if you dont know then say you dont know
but all this thread has said so far is peoples opinions presented as truth
but I havent heard anyone say this is the perfect will of God '
and the reason no one has said that is because that would be a lie
where the spirit is there is liberty
that is the only scripture I need to site to back what I am saying
liberty not bondage
so if you want to subjugate bring under control you are not operating in the spirit
the example jesus gave is invite not force
do what god wants you to do on a case by case basis
-
Since when is being a member of a church bondage? ?/?
-
Personally I feel like if you play, singing, dance or whatever for the church you should be a member,here's why.
I am praise and worship leader at my ministry and I have had to deal with the same issues as far as musicians being invited by other musicians or singers coming in wanting to join the praise team but not the ministry. The reason why this can't be is because Playing an instrument in the church is a ministry, singing is a ministry. You have to be (should be) anointed to do what you are doing. Set aside for this very purpose and able to flow with the anointing that is in your house (church) You have to be able to flow with the anointing over your pastor(s) life. When you bringing in strangers they don't always no how to flow with what is going on.
Another reason: Different people carry different spirits depending on what they entertained the night before, the week before, the hour before, etc. If you bring in a musician (no matter how good he is) who isn't in the right spirit, or one that has entertained the wrong spirit it will hinder the move of God, or rather slow it down because then strong holds will have to be pulled down.
Then like the writer said it becomes a jam session rather then us doing what we need to do.
I also feel that as a musician you have to be saved and have a active relationship with God. Many may disagree because alot of what a musician does come from experience and pure talent. But have you ever seen what can happen when everyone is saved and on one accord! There is no words to describe what God will do in that service, practice, etc.
Musicians who are members at the church that they play at usually are (well they are suppose to be) dedicated to what the vision of the pastor is for that house. Meaning if the pastor has to preach out of town they should be more than willing to follow. If the pastor is having a week long pastor's anniversary, they should be more than willing to participate. Musicians who are not connected to the ministry(have not joined) are not obligated to show up which can leave you high and dry. ( trust me I've experienced this) Its the same for guest/visiting singers.
Bringing in extra musicians to assist while putting on a big production (anniversary, concert, etc) is cool but you already have the understanding that they won't be there always.
In closing I would like to say that it is always the musicians who are connected to the ministry who make it. Those are the ones that grow and become like tye's "sound check" Jesus first is the key to all musicians corners, praise teams, dance groups, etc. Pray that God will send you what you need, not quick fixes for a month or so..or when every they feel like being there. Some one that will enhance what you already have, not one that will hender, or cause you to lose focus.
-
i'm just reading the whole thread so im kinda late ;), but me personally...no i wouldn't let non-members play at my church under conditions b/c for one, non-member musicians sometimes are those musicians that give the music ministry hell b/c they really just play at the church to say their a MOM or a musician somewhere and on the other hand deep down inside really don't support the vision of the church they play for. In which these are ususally the musicians that don't have time to be in rehearsal for over 1 hour nor practice until Sunday and the ones who don't go with the church pastor on any engagements and show up on Sundays whenever they want....
Dude I totally agree.
-
I dont know S jonathon and I have had this debate before and many others
I am just not convinced to be honest in the spirit I dont feel That God requires his musicians to become members\
God never spoke to me to be a member of any church
I pray on all I do concerning ministry
and I never felt the holy spirit encourage me to be a member.of a church since I have been ministering
It is not like I work any harder as a member than I do when I wasnt a member.
But this is not something anyone will be able to convince me of
this is only something God can reveal to me if that is his will.
Nor will I try any further to convince anyone of my opinion and I will stay clear of this debate in the future
Let me say my man that you are a rare breed. If you committ yourself, your time and effort to a ministry that you have not joined then God bless you, and again I say you are a rare breed. But don't you think its a lil strange to only be apart of a ministry for a little bit. It isn't wise to keep up rooting yourself, going from minstry to ministry.
-
I would let them play, because about 2 yrs ago at my church there was a person who came in and got on the drums and one of the (not so nice deacons) told him he had to get off. I wondered why, I mean there was no one on the drums and he had talent. When the deacon told him to leave that day he never came back again. So what I think is that you can have a person who's not a member of your church body perform their talents for the church, and while they continue to play and play you can work up to membership and it will come when its the time. Besides, at least he's at church, because being in church could've been what saved them from walking the streets and getting hit by a car or being shot at. And all that would make is another lost soul. The deacon was wrong for acting like that, and my dad who's also a deacon said that if he were there that Sunday that would not have happened. So sometimes you have to just give people a chance...
-
I would let them play, because about 2 yrs ago at my church there was a person who came in and got on the drums and one of the (not so nice deacons) told him he had to get off. I wondered why, I mean there was no one on the drums and he had talent. When the deacon told him to leave that day he never came back again. So what I think is that you can have a person who's not a member of your church body perform their talents for the church, and while they continue to play and play you can work up to membership and it will come when its the time. Besides, at least he's at church, because being in church could've been what saved them from walking the streets and getting hit by a car or being shot at. And all that would make is another lost soul. The deacon was wrong for acting like that, and my dad who's also a deacon said that if he were there that Sunday that would not have happened. So sometimes you have to just give people a chance...
That is so right, I don't know where people get this whole, be a member issue from. Being a member aint gonna save your soul when you end up in hell. Being a member doesn't grant you eternal life. Accepting Christ as your savior and aknowledging him as King of Kings and Lord of Lords will. And it is our job as the body of Christ to see souls saved and it is our job to win them to Christ. The only way we can do this is by accepting them into the church just as they are, broken, hurt, battered, torn, worn, depressed, oppressed and just low, not having. You don't know how God is going to use your ministry or whomever's ministry. We have to learn to be willing vessels, open, subjective, and submitted to do the work of the Lord. It's time out for join my church and be my member, when its all said and done it aint about you or how you want to operate your ministry. Its about the winning souls and however that has to be done, even if it involves getting of the set, mic, or keyboard to allow someone to be in the presence of God we should let them. It's not even about us and how many members, who the members are or how much they tithe. I am so sick of hearing this over and over again. Let's be real saints and real soul winners, people when are we gonna be about HIM? >:( >:( >:( >:(
-
Man, i just don't even know! This is way too complicatable for my brain!
Ok, i'm sorry, i'll go now!
(http://bestsmileys.com/exercising/5.gif)
8)
-
Since when is being a member of a church bondage? ?/?
I think it is funny that you would ask me this
is not bondage to lock up or lock in to confine
isnt this the whole idea with why you want only a musician who is a member?
well not any of you of course
but let me tell you about some of my experiences with ministries
and other musicians who I know
I know of two ministries that once they had musicians as members they required them to tithe and go to bible study
now you would all say there is nothing wrong with that because it says in the bible we should tithe
and why would studying the bible be a bad thing
well first of all
tithing is between you and God it should not be forced on you
in fact if it is not done willingly and done grudgingly there is no blessing in that
second
bible study
should also be done voluntarily not forced because the holy spirit never forces only encourages never forces
if we are to be like christ let us be like him in all things
a lot of ministries want to force their musicians to be with them and only them
this is bondage
i had a pastor forbid me to play with other churches she said I was prostituting my gift
she wanted me only to play at her church
is that not a type of bondage?
well you may not see it
but I sure do
lastly
the Bible tells me that the wisdom of man is folly unto God
so all this I believe and I feel
that I am reading in these posts
and not one of you said I am lead by God to do blah blah blah
I say stop going by your feeliings and start going by the Word of God
and let christ be your example
I am a member of the church I play for now
but they dont have any more commitment from me now
if anything they have a little less
so membership is not a requirement nor should it ever be
what sould be a requirement that the musician should know Crhist
understand the Gospel message
and be professional enough to be at his or her post when needed
not run through the churches women or men one after another
and seek the righteousness of christ
and honor the pastors vision for the ministry
that should be the only requirement
lets say I was a member of a small local assembly
and td jakes offered me a position at his church
should I have to join td jakes church
and forsake my home church just becuase this is where my talents landed me?
my pastor is my pastor Why should I forsake him or stop blessing his ministry with my tithes?
I am sorrry I just dont agree with the many of you who feel the way you do
because God has not told me that I should agree with you
God tells me there is liberty in the spirit
and the fact that no one is coming back at me with scripture is testament to the fact that this is not ............... well let me stop there i dont want to start anything
selah
-
^^^^^^^^^
I agree 100%. There is a difference between Professional Musicians and those who run wild. Just because someone is not a member, doesent mean that they are gonna wreak havoc in the church, and it doesent mean they will not be faithful or that they are not annointed to play.
D, When we gonna get togather and shed? You in Queens right?
-
You say you want Biblical references but you want to throw out Chronicles? ?/? Rather convenient, no? :-\ I'm reminded of 2 Tim 3:16.
Let's start with 1 Chronicles 6, the entire chapter; but, two particular verses stick out to me, verses 30 & 31:
31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.
32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them.
These are the Levites assigned to provide the music. Notice they are members of the tribe, not from various tribe, but from the one tribe. It's also a family business within the tribe (1 Chronicles 15, specifically verses 16-22).
Let's be honest, if churches were to truly do it the way the Bible describes, a lot of churches would close up with a quickness. :D
Church policy isn't bondage. Fact of the matter is, there are far too many musicians who are only worried about getting the phattest chords and having the spotlight shone on them, as opposed to, our Lord and Savior.
I'm not saying you, Diverse379, fall into that category; in fact, as was stated by someone else, you're a rare breed.
Be that as it may, MOST non-members don't have the best interests of the churches, for whom they play, in mind.
BTW, just because folks haven't decided to quote bible verses to you in defense of their opinion, doesn't negate their feelings or opinion about this particular topic, just like you're quoting a biblical verse doesn't mean that your opinion is the opinion to possess. ;)
Lastly, at the end of the day, you and I will probably remain on our present sides of the fence on this issue. Luckily, it won't keep either of us out of heaven. :D :D
-
You say you want Biblical references but you want to throw out Chronicles? ?/? Rather convenient, no? :-\ I'm reminded of 2 Tim 3:16.
Let's start with 1 Chronicles 6, the entire chapter; but, two particular verses stick out to me, verses 30 & 31:
31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.
32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them.
These are the Levites assigned to provide the music. Notice they are members of the tribe, not from various tribe, but from the one tribe. It's also a family business within the tribe (1 Chronicles 15, specifically verses 16-22).
Let's be honest, if churches were to truly do it the way the Bible describes, a lot of churches would close up with a quickness. :D
Church policy isn't bondage. Fact of the matter is, there are far too many musicians who are only worried about getting the phattest chords and having the spotlight shone on them, as opposed to, our Lord and Savior.
I'm not saying you, Diverse379, fall into that category; in fact, as was stated by someone else, you're a rare breed.
Be that as it may, MOST non-members don't have the best interests of the churches, for whom they play, in mind.
BTW, just because folks haven't decided to quote bible verses to you in defense of their opinion, doesn't negate their feelings or opinion about this particular topic, just like you're quoting a biblical verse doesn't mean that your opinion is the opinion to possess. ;)
true that on the your last point
but I am glad you brought some scripture to this thread
because now we can grow in the word not just entrench in our positions and opinions
I thought about chronicles myself I am not throwing out chronicles
I am saying it is not supporting your position
here is why
first the levites were a tribe that ministered to all the tribes they were a levitical tribe
independent of the other tribes
each tribe had levitical tribes among them they were separate from the worshipers because they were worship leaders
they were in a different category
so I am not throwing out chronicles I just know it doesent support your position
they ministered in all the temples so they would have been welcome to move around to different temples
but
but first we know that was a diferent dispensation
second we are not jewish
jewish people are still very clanish in fact they would cringe that the gentiles were invited to sit at the table
the very idea of christ was to invite everyone to the table
you didnt have to be a disciple to fellowship with him
he wanted you to partake
and go back and be changed
as christians we are to be christ like
christ was about inclusion not about protocol
and the traditions of man
so dont start following the pharisees
but I think we have beat this horse enough
there is nothing more that I can say
I think I made my point
and that is that we should be lead of the spirit
I am not advocating that you follow my opinion but that you follow God's will
and urging
I hope that as ministers we would all do that
woe unto those who scatter my sheep
dont ask me how this relates because I wont tell you
I was just lead to write it
-
...Be that as it may, MOST non-members don't have the best interests of the churches, for whom they play, in mind....
And this is where the church has to stand up and handle its business.
I bolded and underlined the word BUSINESS for a reason. Some churches approach BUSINESS with too much trust and serendipity. People assume that those dealing with the church will do so in good faith. That, unfortunately is not always true. There are some aspects of the church that have to be run like a business. The selection of musicians, be they member or non-member should be handled in that fashion.
I have seen church member musicians behave badly. I have seen musicians who are not members behave in a stellar manner. I like to think that I am in the latter group in those situations where I play somewhere other than my home church. Churches have to be prepared to wave bye-bye to those who are not talented enough or disciplined enough or reverant enough to fit their needs.
I still maintain that it is clearly within any church's right to say "we only want members as musicians". It is also clearly in a church's right to say "we will allow appropriate non-members to be musicians in our service".
Just curious......for those of you who are in churches that only want church members as musicians, does this same rule apply to church secretaries, custodians, van / bus drivers and other paid positions? I do recognize that none of these are directly related to conducting service like musicians are, but I am curious as to how this part of "running the church's business" is handled.
Peace,
James
-
And this is where the church has to stand up and handle its business.
I bolded and underlined the word BUSINESS for a reason. Some churches approach BUSINESS with too much trust and serendipity. People assume that those dealing with the church will do so in good faith. That, unfortunately is not always true. There are some aspects of the church that have to be run like a business. The selection of musicians, be they member or non-member should be handled in that fashion.
I have seen church member musicians behave badly. I have seen musicians who are not members behave in a stellar manner. I like to think that I am in the latter group in those situations where I play somewhere other than my home church. Churches have to be prepared to wave bye-bye to those who are not talented enough or disciplined enough or reverant enough to fit their needs.
I still maintain that it is clearly within any church's right to say "we only want members as musicians". It is also clearly in a church's right to say "we will allow appropriate non-members to be musicians in our service".
Just curious......for those of you who are in churches that only want church members as musicians, does this same rule apply to church secretaries, custodians, van / bus drivers and other paid positions? I do recognize that none of these are directly related to conducting service like musicians are, but I am curious as to how this part of "running the church's business" is handled.
Peace,
James
What makes you think those positions are paid at all churches? :-\
-
true that on the your last point
but I am glad you brought some scripture to this thread
I thought about chronicles myself
but first we know that was a diferent dispensation
second we are not jewish
jewish people are still very clanish in fact they would cringe that the gentiles were invited to sit at the table
the very idea of christ was to invite everyone to the table
you didnt have to be a disciple to fellowship with him
he wanted you to partake
and go back and be changed
as christians we are to be christ like
christ was about inclusion not about protocol
and the traditions of man
so dont start following the pharisees
because they are the ones who wanted to kill christ
but I also remember that in those days there was just one temple in the town or the city
so there was no where else to worship it would be interesting if a musician came to visit from another tribe would he be allowed to play with them while he was in town visiting
I want to believe he would be allowed to minister
but I think we have beat this horse enough
there is nothing more that I can say
I think I made my point
and that is that we should be lead of the spirit
I am not advocating that you follow my opinion but that you follow God's will
and urging
I hope that as ministers we would all do that
woe unto those who scatter my sheep
dont ask me how this relates because I wont tell you
I was just lead to write it
Now, THAT would be interesting. :D
I agree that we should, all of us, be led by the Spirit. As for the "woe unto those who scatter my sheep" line, I'm with ya. 8)
-
i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites
the levites were a separate tribe
so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate
the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate
also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"
Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).
The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).
After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).
Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:
The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.
The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).
The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).
Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).
here is what I found on the levites
-
Quick question: My mother has a membership at one church and my membership is at another church. Everytime I fellowship at my mother's church; they ask/let me to play. Is that really wrong?
-
i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites
the levites were a separate tribe
so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate
the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate
also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"
Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).
The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).
After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).
Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:
The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.
The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).
The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).
Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).
here is what I found on the levites
See, now you're gonna make me do some digging. It's summer man; no lesson plans, none of 'dat!! :D :D :D
I'll see if I feel up to it. I'm not sure that simply because the Levites were a separate tribe that they weren't 'members'. But, again, I'll have to do some research.
But, now, you're gonna have to pick a stance. Was that a different dispensation or not? :D :D :D Don't be tryin' to use this to bolster your argument then say we don't have to go by that anymore. (with the ghetto neck roll and all ala Shequita Jenkins from around the way :D :D :D)
-
you are funny man
take it easy enjoy your vacation
i am just glad that we cn get above the mere level of opinions and we can start to really delve into the word
that will only serve to help us all grow
-
Quick question: My mother has a membership at one church and my membership is at another church. Everytime I fellowship at my mother's church; they ask/let me to play. Is that really wrong?
The topic isn't about having guest musicians. It's about having non-members become permanent fixtures in the musician's ministry.
To All:
So if a non-member wants to be a permanent fixture (btw, we don't have that prob anymore and I kinda misinterpreted the rule anyway...even though it seemed straight foward...but I digress) would you consider them a part of the musician's ministry or just playing/performing with the musician's ministry?
-
The topic isn't about having guest musicians. It's about having non-members become permanent fixtures in the musician's ministry.
To All:
So if a non-member wants to be a permanent fixture (btw, we don't have that prob anymore and I kinda misinterpreted the rule anyway...even though it seemed straight foward...but I digress) would you consider them a part of the musician's ministry or just playing/performing with the musician's ministry?
Part of the music ministry
-
What makes you think those positions are paid at all churches? :-\
I don't think they are paid at ALL churches. But just as some churches have paid musicians and some don't, some have paid secretaries, custodians, van drivers, others don't. For those who do, Im curious as to whether or not they also have to be members.
-
Ok, i see how yall are really debating and discussing this on both sides of the issue. And, i've had a little time to think on it, and here's what i came up with:
I STILL just don't know!.....Catch you on the rebound Chief!!
(http://bestsmileys.com/exercising/5.gif)
8)
-
Ok, i see how yall are really debating and discussing this on both sides of the issue. And, i've had a little time to think on it, and here's what i came up with:
I STILL just don't know!.....Catch you on the rebound Chief!!
([url]http://bestsmileys.com/exercising/5.gif[/url])
8)
I hear you I wanted to run too
it's scary how many are on the side of
no member no play!
-
I hear you I wanted to run too
it's scary how many are on the side of
no member no play!
I submit that most churches have probably been burned, left high and dry, etc. by folks who weren't members.
-
I submit that most churches have probably been burned, left high and dry, etc. by folks who weren't members.
Just like musicians have been burned, left high and dry, etc. by churches that they are members of.
-
Just like musicians have been burned, left high and dry, etc. by churches that they are members of.
*in my best Braxton voice*
Ahhhhh........the ever popular, "two wrongs makes a right" defense. ::) :-\
-
*in my best Braxton voice*
Ahhhhh........the ever popular, "two wrongs makes a right" defense. ::) :-\
I will support under thirteen and say that I will use this to counter what you say as well not because two wrongs make a right
because the jury is out whether forcing one to become a member is right
but it is a significant point that since musicians have been burned and left high and dry to coin that phrase
by becoming members then that would say that there are issues to face.
and possble reasons why musicians would be leary of joining up with ministries that they play for
-
I will support under thirteen and say that I will use this to counter what you say as well not because two wrongs make a right
because the jury is out whether forcing one to become a member is right
but it is a significant point that since musicians have been burned and left high and dry to coin that phrase
by becoming members then that would say that there are issues to face.
and possble reasons why musicians would be leary of joining up with ministries that they play for
It appears to me that:
a. this would need to be taken on a case by case basis. I'm sure there are musicians who have only played for one church (their childhood church not withstanding) and have had no problems.
b. BOTH sides need to really sit down and determine what is going to work for the ministry long-term.
The musician's been burned; the church has been burned. So, now what? Feel me?
At the end of the day, we're going to be on the opposite side of this thing. I have a problem with a musician who's only going to show up at church to play, then bounce.
-
I will support under thirteen and say that I will use this to counter what you say as well not because two wrongs make a right
because the jury is out whether forcing one to become a member is right
but it is a significant point that since musicians have been burned and left high and dry to coin that phrase
by becoming members then that would say that there are issues to face.
and possble reasons why musicians would be leary of joining up with ministries that they play for
Hmm. Its even worse when its your Home church that takes advantage of you.
I think I said this before, but if churches want musicians to be members, then they should train the young people to be musicians, and they should treat them fairly and with respect
In my opinion, a church thats gonna force you to be a member, probaly just wants to maximize the chances that you wont leave. And such a church will pobaly have other rules that make little sense.
I have a problem with a musician who's only going to show up at church to play, then bounce.
Why? How does that hurt the church? Enlighten a brother.
-
Hmm. Its even worse when its your Home church that takes advantage of you.
I think I said this before, but if churches want musicians to be members, then they should train the young people to be musicians, and they should treat them fairly and with respect
In my opinion, a church thats gonna force you to be a member, probaly just wants to maximize the chances that you wont leave. And such a church will pobaly have other rules that make little sense......
Cosign. All o' that!
But some churches are too small to have a legitimate chance at training someone within the membership. They would need to and should consider, hiring outside musicians. That or just go with no musicians at all. I've seen that work.
Peace,
James
-
Cosign. All o' that!
But some churches are too small to have a legitimate chance at training someone within the membership. They would need to and should consider, hiring outside musicians. That or just go with no musicians at all. I've seen that work.
Peace,
James
A LOT of people wouldn't/don't understand that concept, at all. ::) :-\
BTW, those small churches may not be able to afford to pay musicians due to their size. Doesn't mean they ain't bringin' the Word, though. ;) :D
-
Cosign. All o' that!
But some churches are too small to have a legitimate chance at training someone within the membership. They would need to and should consider, hiring outside musicians. That or just go with no musicians at all. I've seen that work.
Peace,
James
A LOT of people wouldn't/don't understand that concept, at all. ::) :-\
BTW, those small churches may not be able to afford to pay musicians due to their size. Doesn't mean they ain't bringin' the Word, though. ;) :D
I agree.
I also hope we can agree to disagree, cuz I dont think anybody is gonna change thier minds.
-
I agree.
I also hope we can agree to disagree, cuz I dont think anybody is gonna change thier minds.
At the end of the day, we're going to be on the opposite side of this thing.
Really? :o ::)
-
....BTW, those small churches may not be able to afford to pay musicians due to their size. Doesn't mean they ain't bringin' the Word, though. ;) :D
I know. I cut my chops playing at several of them for no charge. As a non-member.
-
I know. I cut my chops playing at several of them for no charge. As a non-member.
ditto
-
At the end of the day, we're going to be on the opposite side of this thing. I have a problem with a musician who's only going to show up at church to play, then bounce.
I will amen that
I also have a problem with musicians who feel that when the whole congregation stands for the reading of the word they feel they can still sit
reverence for the word is for all
I think we have finally come down to the real meat of this debate
and that is professionalism and courtesy
and commitment
none of which has to do with membership but it does have to do with maturity and integrity
Regardless of whether or not you are a member or not
if you are hired by a church as a full time musician
then you are obligated to play for all of their programs or make sure there is someone present
you are hired to handle their music ministry
that includes special programs rehearsals
etc
this should all be spelled out in a contract
and if your church doesent know this you should as a musician understand the many variable s
and as a christian bring this to bear in the meeting
you have a right to want to charge extra for your extra time commitments
but you dont have a right to take money for nothing
leaving before the benedicition unless given permsission
I have seen many afternoon programs where there is no musician present
I think that as a minister of music or church musician your sundays should be devoted to your contracted hire
it is a covenant between you God and the pastor of the house.
I am glad to see you pen the words you did on this particular post I quoted
because it taught me that although we disagree if we are both on the side of God we will agree when we uncover enough stuff
I understand now that your main purpose with the membership piece is to protect the ministry
I hope you understand that the way to protect the ministry is with mature contientious spirit filled musicians who have reverence for god and his messengers and ingegrity within themselves
-
I will amen that
I also have a problem with musicians who feel that when the whole congregation stands for the reading of the word they feel they can still sit
reverence for the word is for all
I think we have finally come down to the real meat of this debate
and that is professionalism and courtesy
and commitment
none of which has to do with membership but it does have to do with maturity and integrity
Regardless of whether or not you are a member or not
if you are hired by a church as a full time musician
then you are obligated to play for all of their programs or make sure there is someone present
you are hired to handle their music ministry
that includes special programs rehearsals
etc
this should all be spelled out in a contract
and if your church doesent know this you should as a musician understand the many variable s
and as a christian bring this to bear in the meeting
you have a right to want to charge extra for your extra time commitments
but you dont have a right to take money for nothing
leaving before the benedicition unless given permsission
I have seen many afternoon programs where there is no musician present
I think that as a minister of music or church musician your sundays should be devoted to your contracted hire
it is a covenant between you God and the pastor of the house.
I am glad to see you pen the words you did on this particular post I quoted
because it taught me that although we disagree if we are both on the side of God we will agree when we uncover enough stuff
I understand now that your main purpose with the membership piece is to protect the ministry
I hope you understand that the way to protect the ministry is with mature contientious spirit filled musicians who have reverence for god and his messengers and ingegrity within themselves
Very well stated.
-
I will amen that
I also have a problem with musicians who feel that when the whole congregation stands for the reading of the word they feel they can still sit
reverence for the word is for all
I think we have finally come down to the real meat of this debate
and that is professionalism and courtesy
and commitment
none of which has to do with membership but it does have to do with maturity and integrity
Regardless of whether or not you are a member or not
if you are hired by a church as a full time musician
then you are obligated to play for all of their programs or make sure there is someone present
you are hired to handle their music ministry
that includes special programs rehearsals
etc
this should all be spelled out in a contract
and if your church doesent know this you should as a musician understand the many variable s
and as a christian bring this to bear in the meeting
you have a right to want to charge extra for your extra time commitments
but you dont have a right to take money for nothing
leaving before the benedicition unless given permsission
I have seen many afternoon programs where there is no musician present
I think that as a minister of music or church musician your sundays should be devoted to your contracted hire
it is a covenant between you God and the pastor of the house.
I am glad to see you pen the words you did on this particular post I quoted
because it taught me that although we disagree if we are both on the side of God we will agree when we uncover enough stuff
I understand now that your main purpose with the membership piece is to protect the ministry
I hope you understand that the way to protect the ministry is with mature contientious spirit filled musicians who have reverence for god and his messengers and ingegrity within themselves
I appreciate the sentence in bold. And, I can agree with your last paragraph; very well said.
-
very well put...
I am Apostolic but I play for a couple SDA choir's. The church itself has a drummer, but he's still learning. For the choir, I attend every practice and also help teaching songs. At times they call me to play for their church services. I do not ever get paid, nor would I ever ask. I jumped at the opportunity to play for them, because I love playing. Albeit, I would never consider switching churches. At my church I'm a Praise Leader, webmaster and more... I know there are people who think I shouldn't be playing for them because of our doctrinal differences. I don't really care (ie my pastor is ok with it), when I play, I'm giving glory to God, plus doing something I greatly enjoy.
I think the line should stop at complete non-believers, the "unchurched". What spirit are they bringing? What is their motive? Yes, I know you could ask the same questions of the 'churched', but more than likely their base is better and will at least a basic understanding of worship. To the unsaved man, it's just a gig.
t-ent
-
Kudos for to all who have expressed their concerns in respectful tone. This is defintely an discussion to sharpen your irons. I'm in a situation where I am playing for a church and I'm not a member. I work in retail sales so my time is very limited. Some Sundays I leave early due to my schedule. The Sunday's I'm not scheduled I stay the entire service out of respect for the people of God.. Most of you know that I'm an not a fan of tradition. Nor am I a fan of people practicing withcraft with anyone that comes through the doors of a fellowship. The one thing that stood out in the thread was when the brother eloquently pointed out the differences in scripture. It is a personal choice of the ministry on whom they decide to hire. It is up the other party to accept those terms. I have an understanding with the ministry that I help out that I ain't joining. My buddy who recruited me invited me on this basis. The ONLY reason I did it because we were childhood buddies.
I have grown to appreciate certain things about this ministry but it hasn't changed my intent when I first agreed to help out. I played there a few months before they offered to "pay me". I initially refused it but they insisted. The Lord had to show me not to walk in pride when someone wants to be a blessing to you. So when I'm available I play. They ain't calling me sweatin' me about every little event they got going on. My buddy profusely thanks me every time I come through and play. This is something that has to be handled on a case by case basis. Siutations like this shows why Jesus hated the traditions of men. They always hinder the flow of the spirit. Good mature discussion guys and gals...
-
thank you for your kind and thoughtful words.
and when you mentioned the brother who spoke on the scriptures
I looked for them and I couldnt find them
and I said to myself wait a minute
didnt I write and research scriptures to help us get to the core of this debate
and they are gone
now mind you we members dont have the ability to delete a post we can erase our content but the post still remains
I cant understand why actual biblical references were deleted
as a gospel site we should endeavor to learn more about the bible I will post it back up here again because it is needed
we need to get out of our flesh and into the spirit of God and the word will help us get there
-
this post contains bible verses and information that can help us get to the heart of this debate
Please do not delete this step up if you disagreee and lets get theological on this
i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites
the levites were a separate tribe
so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate
the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate
also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"
Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).
The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).
After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).
Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:
The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.
The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).
The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).
Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).
here is what I found on the levites
-
It's on page three, playa. ;) :D
Ain't nobody tryin' to sabotoge the discussion. :D
-
... i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites
the levites were a separate tribe...so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate....
I can't say that this scripture is valid to make your point about musicians not being members. Seems if this is the case, the choir, praise team, worship leaders, etc... shouldn't be members either.
But I can see both sides - a church wanting some stability or consistency vs. musicians not wanting to be exploited and having their own liberty.
But I still don't think it's right to join just to be a musician there; I not sure why a church would want someone to join just for the sake of being a musician.
-
I can't say that this scripture is valid to make your point about musicians not being members. Seems if this is the case, the choir, praise team, worship leaders, etc... shouldn't be members either.
But I can see both sides - a church wanting some stability or consistency vs. musicians not wanting to be exploited and having their own liberty.
But I still don't think it's right to join just to be a musician there; I not sure why a church would want someone to join just for the sake of being a musician.
Exactly.
-
It's on page three, playa. ;) :D
Ain't nobody tryin' to sabotoge the discussion. :D
My Bad
I was truly tripping whe I couldnt find it
I was like the devil must be busy
I was ready to put holy oil all up on my computer
I can't say that this scripture is valid to make your point about musicians not being members. Seems if this is the case, the choir, praise team, worship leaders, etc... shouldn't be members either.
But I can see both sides - a church wanting some stability or consistency vs. musicians not wanting to be exploited and having their own liberty.
But I still don't think it's right to join just to be a musician there; I not sure why a church would want someone to join just for the sake of being a musician.
I think it makes a good case for why musicians shouldnt be forced to be musicians
and why pastors shouldnt necessarrily demand that their singers be members
as far as the other side of the coin that is something for us to look into
Would it be unfair to say the following
the scriptures dont rule out the possibility of being a member
it just speaks about the levites being set aside
those that make this their calling there only calling
for example professional singers like yolanda Adams
should not have to feel pressured to join a church that she sings in
or if a small choir gospel group wants to minister at a church for a season
as long as the pastor has met with them and ordains their limited tenure
I think this is what the Levites were
they were full time music praisers
so if a singer fell into this category then they too should be treated just as the levites were
with the ability to minister freely and not be called a prostitute for singing in another church.
(I was accused of prostituting my gift Because I used to play drums at another church when they had afternoon programs)
the pastor had a doctorate degree
yet she said many things that were not accurately scriptural
Which is why it is important that we discern and understand the word
sorry for bugging out
but I take the word seriously I guess I should have asked first right?
-
...I was accused of prostituting my gift Because I used to play drums at another church when they had afternoon programs...
Now this right here is the reason I could understand why a musicians wouldn't want to join church. As long as you were at your home church, it wasn't prostitution. But when you play at another church (in the evening even) there's a problem. That's control.
My take is: if the church wants some stability or security with musicians that aren't members (because some musicians do have a reputation of being "flighty") they ought to have a written legal contract in place - and it's a done deal! That way both sides are protected.
Me personally, I'm a member where I play but I was a member long before I even started learning to play.
-
Now this right here is the reason I could understand why a musicians wouldn't want to join church. As long as you were at your home church, it wasn't prostitution. But when you play at another church (in the evening even) there's a problem. That's control.
My take is: if the church wants some stability or security with musicians that aren't members (because some musicians do have a reputation of being "flighty") they ought to have a written legal contract in place - and it's a done deal! That way both sides are protected.
Me personally, I'm a member where I play but I was a member long before I even started learning to play.
Cosign to ALL of it, especially the part in bold.