LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: floaded27 on June 05, 2008, 11:33:28 PM
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today once again the nonsense with the P&W team has taken me over the edge. the coming to rehearsal with lists of songs to go over without even telling me in advance so i could learn them, having these side chats with the organist regarding what songs to do as if me and the drummer arent musicians as well, and then just totally being unprepared. i flipped on them in rehearsal and didnt play. i didnt want to bother trying to fake songs, and then when they wanted me to play a song that the know i rock, i refused to play. why should i just sit in rehearsal twiddling my thumbs till u snap ur fingers and i just start playing "yes mr. boss man sir". come on.
and the response from both of them was "i didnt know i had to let the musicians know what songs to learn". ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?! Like we just play a few magical notes and make a wish and all of a sudden we can play any song. give me a break. Thats your job if your a P&W leader. then when one of the ladies agrees and says that her husband (who happens to be my mentor, but plays for another church) needs the songs in advance to learn them, they say "we didnt know it took all that". Really, like we just touch the CD and absorb songs. seriously.
i got mad arguing with my aunt, who was one of those people, when i got home. i talked to my grandmother, my brother and at the moment chatting with my sister-in-law, all who are trying to console me. but im still contemplating sunday telling my pastor that im gonna quit.
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today once again the nonsense with the P&W team has taken me over the edge. the coming to rehearsal with lists of songs to go over without even telling me in advance so i could learn them, having these side chats with the organist regarding what songs to do as if me and the drummer arent musicians as well, and then just totally being unprepared. i flipped on them in rehearsal and didnt play. i didnt want to bother trying to fake songs, and then when they wanted me to play a song that the know i rock, i refused to play. why should i just sit in rehearsal twiddling my thumbs till u snap ur fingers and i just start playing "yes mr. boss man sir". come on.
and the response from both of them was "i didnt know i had to let the musicians know what songs to learn". ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?! Like we just play a few magical notes and make a wish and all of a sudden we can play any song. give me a break. Thats your job if your a P&W leader. then when one of the ladies agrees and says that her husband (who happens to be my mentor, but plays for another church) needs the songs in advance to learn them, they say "we didnt know it took all that". Really, like we just touch the CD and absorb songs. seriously.
i got mad arguing with my aunt, who was one of those people, when i got home. i talked to my grandmother, my brother and at the moment chatting with my sister-in-law, all who are trying to console me. but im still contemplating sunday telling my pastor that im gonna quit.
ACKNOWLEDGE GOD FIRST BEFORE YOU QUIT CUZ YOU CAN BRING STUFF TO YOU WORST THAN ALL OF THAT YOU JUS NEED TO PRAY PRAYER IS ALWAYS IN ORDER
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I feel your frustration man, and I've been there on more than one occasion!!! Through everything that you face remember that you're not playing for the people, but for giving your gift back to God! People who don't play bass (or aren't musicians) will never understand what we face but don't let them break your Spirit. Now that's not a green light to just missuse you but at the same time maybe try getting things more organized.
Having a meeting with your MOM, P&W leader(s), and other musicians. Maybe have everyone agree on a list of songs so you can all be better prepared....it's worth a shot right?
Be Blessed,
J
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We had the same problem at my church when my brother-in-law was leading. The thing was, he would send out songs, then change a few at rehearsal, and then change a few on Sunday as well. I'm totally open to him being led by the Spirit to change the service, but it makes it hard to adapt on the fly. I just told him during one rehearsal that I didn't appreciate it. I spend a lot of time learning the songs he sends out, and it's time I'd rather spend with my family if he's just going to switch them. He totally understood and now he tries harder to keep things a bit more predictable. I say just let them know that you can't do your best unless they meet you halfway. If they still have a problem with it, then at least your conscience is clear.
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Aww come on Fload!! Who needs practice Man!
Im gon tell you a lil secret:
All you got to do is, rub yo bass, and chant three times the title of the song, and BAM!! it's in the pocket! Piece of cake!!
Ok, im lyin'...but, that WOULD be nice! :-\
Ok Fload, i think you got me man....Looks like you got a valid point there! Just communicate a little more clearly with 'em, and see what happens. 8)
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yea ive have that issue and sometimes i still have it.....sometimes i feel as though when it comes to learning new songs, they forget about me as the bass player........bass players get the short end of the stick sometimes. just consult god about it before making any decision......hope all works out for ya.
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I'm sorry, I gotta know what I'm playing at least a week in advance. I'm usually straight forward about that from jump street! How can they expect you to know a song that you've never played or, even less, heard before?? Not understanding that at all! I say have a sit down with everyone and express your feelings first before quitting. Try to get everyone on the same page. If no success, it may be time to move on. Pray on it!
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floaded, I echo what everyone else has said. I remain in prayer for you and your music department.
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....man I would love to be in your situation....I have come to the understanding that people dont know what you are supposed to do anyway so why sweat it!
Just let me come and blow every time....If I were you I would stop kicking against the pricks as the word says and enjoy myself....play what you know and always give it your best effort.....many pro groups work this way....they have a basis for the song and expect you as a professional to get in there and make it sound like you have been playing together for years.....(you can blow..thats why they called you..handle your business!)
I hate it when I need to learn a song...note for note or a certain way...cuz the keys arent gunna play it the same way twice anywho!
...shoot!...give me the key and a little room....and thank me later!...I am looking for a church in Texas to play at now......not bass ...but guitar...but I'll play bass if I have to....
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As a bass/keys player my thing is, why doesnt the organist back you up?? They shouldnt be as self centered as to leave you all hanging while they are in the know. My choir tries to pull that sometime, and as the keys player I say hold up. I know I can pick up things quickly, but yall have to remember I have other musicians with me (the bass player has only been playing 2 yrs). Musicians should always stick together.
And lets be real. This is 2008. You cant tell me none of those ppl have email or some way to get the songs out easily. Heck you can bout text documents these days lol. You did say they were unprepared tho. :-\ Be encouraged brother. How ever you go about trying to rectify, do it calmly, with meekness and with professionalism.
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....man I would love to be in your situation....I have come to the understanding that people dont know what you are supposed to do anyway so why sweat it!
Just let me come and blow every time....If I were you I would stop kicking against the pricks as the word says and enjoy myself....play what you know and always give it your best effort.....many pro groups work this way....they have a basis for the song and expect you as a professional to get in there and make it sound like you have been playing together for years.....(you can blow..thats why they called you..handle your business!)
I hate it when I need to learn a song...note for note or a certain way...cuz the keys arent gunna play it the same way twice anywho!
...shoot!...give me the key and a little room....and thank me later!...I am looking for a church in Texas to play at now......not bass ...but guitar...but I'll play bass if I have to....
Uriah, I agree with you. Floaded, I've been in these situations many of times. I've expressed to give me a heads up on songs to learn and I'll be prepared. When they don't, I sit in rehearsal and begin to learn the songs. I let them see how much time it takes to learn certain songs. I take up their time. They begin to get the picture. As Uriah stated, as musicians though, we often have to play at the spare of the moment. Case in point, when Dorothy Norwood came and did a concert in my home town, I was the bass player. The choir and band rehearsed with her that morning at about 11 am, the show was I think 5. In the middle of rehearsal, the spirit fell and we didn't go over the songs she wanted to sing. At show time, she wanted to sing songs that we didn't rehearse. I definately hadn't heard the songs, nor did all the choir members. As musicians, we fell into place and the crowd did not know that we didn't know the songs. A keyboardist who knew the songs, called out the progressions and we worked it out. So, while I understand your frustration, these situations only help you as a musician. Just last night, I played Joshua's Troop "Everybody Clap Your Hands" with a choir in a totally different key than what the song is in, on the organ. I've only played this song on bass one time about 5 weeks ago. I was only able to do this, because of yours of frustration and saying that I'm going to be prepared for all situations. I've also been asked to play for groups in concerts without ever rehearsing with them.
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uriah and ddwilkins both offered some excellent repsonses.
uriah, i love your way of looking at things. :D
However, I think that in the case of dd's response, floaded's frustration comes from the fact that these are the musicians he works with week in and week out. As bassists we should strive to be skilled enough, versatile enough, flexible enough to contribute something to unfamiliar songs. But we shouldn't have to do it every Sunday at our home church.
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ACKNOWLEDGE GOD FIRST BEFORE YOU QUIT CUZ YOU CAN BRING STUFF TO YOU WORST THAN ALL OF THAT YOU JUS NEED TO PRAY PRAYER IS ALWAYS IN ORDER
i understand u and i know. but its like how can i stay in something that discourages me to the point where it affects other stuff. when i go to church, im more than a bass player, meaning im not one of those dudes that feel "if i cant play then im not going" so i can praise God without being on the bass cause i did it before, so if playing starts to deteriorate my whole worship experience because of discouragement, then y would i want to continue with things as is? it needs to change, but if its not going to then what can i do?
Now that's not a green light to just missuse you but at the same time maybe try getting things more organized. Having a meeting with your MOM, P&W leader(s), and other musicians. Maybe have everyone agree on a list of songs so you can all be better prepared....it's worth a shot right?
i tried getting things better organized for our youth day, but why should i do the leaders job if they're the leader? imagine if you went to work and had to do your job plus the job of the CEO, while the CEO just sits around being the CEO (in name only cause its u doing their job)? We dont have a MOM because nobodys qualified to be such. and we dont have to agree on songs, i dont need to have any input or say so in what songs they sing, i just feel that once decisions are made (which should be done in a timely manner) we should be notified.
Aww come on Fload!! Who needs practice Man! All you got to do is, rub yo bass, and chant three times the title of the song, and BAM!! it's in the pocket! Piece of cake!! Ok, im lyin'...but, that WOULD be nice!
munny, u funny, but i feel like they might actually believe thats what happens if you told them that. like no preparation is required as long as u are excited to do it. but anything im excited about, i want to do well
yea ive have that issue and sometimes i still have it.....sometimes i feel as though when it comes to learning new songs, they forget about me as the bass player........bass players get the short end of the stick sometimes. just consult god about it before making any decision......hope all works out for ya.
yeah it does feel that way. i dont know if its the bass itself or the fact that ur not the organist. or the fact that the drummer can just come and play with no heads up or nothin so thats expected of everyone else. believe me im trying to consult him.
I'm sorry, I gotta know what I'm playing at least a week in advance. I'm usually straight forward about that from jump street! How can they expect you to know a song that you've never played or, even less, heard before?? Not understanding that at all! I say have a sit down with everyone and express your feelings first before quitting. Try to get everyone on the same page. If no success, it may be time to move on. Pray on it!
exactly my point. especially if i dont know that im supposed to know it! how is that not so obvious. my grandmother was saying that everybody dont think about things the way that i do, but come on. how can u not understand that? i may call that sit-down on sunday. i just hope i dont get heated behind others' blatant obliviousness.
floaded, I echo what everyone else has said. I remain in prayer for you and your music department.
thanks. just hope u got a lot of time on ur hands.
....man I would love to be in your situation....I have come to the understanding that people dont know what you are supposed to do anyway so why sweat it!
Just let me come and blow every time....If I were you I would stop kicking against the pricks as the word says and enjoy myself....play what you know and always give it your best effort.....many pro groups work this way....they have a basis for the song and expect you as a professional to get in there and make it sound like you have been playing together for years.....(you can blow..thats why they called you..handle your business!)
I hate it when I need to learn a song...note for note or a certain way...cuz the keys arent gunna play it the same way twice anywho!
...shoot!...give me the key and a little room....and thank me later!...I am looking for a church in Texas to play at now......not bass ...but guitar...but I'll play bass if I have to....
if only it was that simple uriah. some songs u have to learn a certain way or its not the song. no u may not have to play it note for note cause u understand what parts are from the other persons feel of the song, but u still need structure. so u dont know the song, u feed off of whats being played, am i correct? so what happens when the singers are looking to you to know how to sing the song, and because u dont know it u lookin to the organist to feed off of his playin, and he's either not even there or he lookin back at u to see what u playin? theres nothin professional at all about that.
why doesnt the organist back you up?? They shouldnt be as self centered as to leave you all hanging while they are in the know. My choir tries to pull that sometime, and as the keys player I say hold up. I know I can pick up things quickly, but yall have to remember I have other musicians with me (the bass player has only been playing 2 yrs). Musicians should always stick together.
he backs up whoever is convenient to take the heat off of him when he's a huge part of the problem regarding the music department. how he handles things is part of the reason why things have been in disarray for so long. he'll fake it as long as he can get by faking it. now how can i fake it after someone else faking it? but they are unprepared the whole lot of them, and from other people i've played with (especially my teacher) i cant be like that or i will be replaced with no hard feelings.
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Floaded,
I'm sorta going through the same thing as you are, but I probably have a little more flexibility. I don't know how long you've been with this particular church / P&W goup, but if you are fairly new to the group, I would suggest asking them to give you a CD of their more frequently played songs. Then you can work on them on your own time and at least have a feel for the flow when they decide to pull them out at the last minute.
In my case I'm a little more flexible in that I let this particular church know that I would not be available every week and that we'd need to discuss in advance when and what I would play. I still go to rehearsals even if I'm not going to play that Sunday, so that I can get exposure to the songs they are adding to thier repertoire. I also take my Zoom reorder to every rehearsal and record what the keyboard is playing so that I can build my own lines on my own time.
These rehearsals are also fairly disorganized, but they do ask at the end if anyone is uncomfortable with what is planned for Sunday. On the Sundays where I am going to play, this is my opportunity to say I'm not ready if I am not ready
So I guess all in all, if you decide to stay with the group, my afdvice would be
- Get someone to get you recordings of the material that is in play.
- Take a recorder to rehearsals and record the keyboard parts.
- If you're not ready for a certain song, just say you're not ready. The interesting thing is, as soon as you do, two or three others will say "ya know, we could use some time to tighten up that one part"
Wishing you the best with whatever you decide.
Peace,
James
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uriah and ddwilkins both offered some excellent repsonses.
uriah, i love your way of looking at things. :D
However, I think that in the case of dd's response, floaded's frustration comes from the fact that these are the musicians he works with week in and week out. As bassists we should strive to be skilled enough, versatile enough, flexible enough to contribute something to unfamiliar songs. But we shouldn't have to do it every Sunday at our home church.
a little secret, my home church hasn't rehearsed really in months. I don't understand why, but we be putting songs together on sunday mornings. at this moment, I've been offered to play for another church. Some people just don't get it, so you'll have to work pass them. If someone has BETJ, check out the show Studio Jams. Its a great show to watch and understand how to play at the spare of the moment like professionals. I was watching it at I typed this post.
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if only it was that simple uriah. some songs u have to learn a certain way or its not the song. no u may not have to play it note for note cause u understand what parts are from the other persons feel of the song, but u still need structure. so u dont know the song, u feed off of whats being played, am i correct? so what happens when the singers are looking to you to know how to sing the song, and because u dont know it u lookin to the organist to feed off of his playin, and he's either not even there or he lookin back at u to see what u playin? theres nothin professional at all about that.
....heres the reality...and please dont get me wrong..I really do feel your pain....the identifying part in the song for everyone concerned will not be the bass line....once we past the 80's the bassline lost it's lead roll.....kool and the gang...comadors..etc.....I guarantee you...that if you asked anyone but another bassist.....the choir and audience would have no idea of what the bassline is....even the keys part can be totaly changed...as long as a reminder of the melody pops in ...everything will work just fine....
why am I saying this....
youv'e got to stop adding a significance to a situation that simply doesnt exist!....if no one is pressing you for this structure that you feel a need for....then try not to make yourself stress over it.
surely it would be nice if it wasnt that way every time.....but in your case ...they just dont see the structure as importantly as just getting the thing done in a musical fashion.
....the stress is gunna get ya dude! ;D
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today once again the nonsense with the P&W team has taken me over the edge. the coming to rehearsal with lists of songs to go over without even telling me in advance so i could learn them, having these side chats with the organist regarding what songs to do as if me and the drummer arent musicians as well, and then just totally being unprepared. i flipped on them in rehearsal and didnt play. i didnt want to bother trying to fake songs, and then when they wanted me to play a song that the know i rock, i refused to play. why should i just sit in rehearsal twiddling my thumbs till u snap ur fingers and i just start playing "yes mr. boss man sir". come on.
and the response from both of them was "i didnt know i had to let the musicians know what songs to learn". ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?! Like we just play a few magical notes and make a wish and all of a sudden we can play any song. give me a break. Thats your job if your a P&W leader. then when one of the ladies agrees and says that her husband (who happens to be my mentor, but plays for another church) needs the songs in advance to learn them, they say "we didnt know it took all that". Really, like we just touch the CD and absorb songs. seriously.
i got mad arguing with my aunt, who was one of those people, when i got home. i talked to my grandmother, my brother and at the moment chatting with my sister-in-law, all who are trying to console me. but im still contemplating sunday telling my pastor that im gonna quit.
I feel you doc. I recently (as in last Sabbath) retired from my position because of the something along the same line. But mine stems a bit deeper. I'm still playing on Sundays, but at my church there's no dedication to excellence and people are too content with garbage, regardless of the talks.
Sometimes you do need to remove yourself from certain situations, but since they know now mayble they'll change. Sadly, that didn't happen in my case.
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I'm with Jeremy. I prefer a more solid foundation with music well worked on collectively! At the very least give me the name/title of the new song and the artist if possible. I can do the rest but in my band leading days, I always provided titles-artists-sheet music (if available) and/or cd's. No surprises. News songs are never played without rehearsing them. Not a fan of open unrehearsed situations at all.
I still say, have a sit-down and discuss.
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I'm with Jeremy. I prefer a more solid foundation with music well worked on collectively! At the very least give me the name/title of the new song and the artist if possible. I can do the rest but in my band leading days, I always provided titles-artists-sheet music (if available) and/or cd's. No surprises. News songs are never played without rehearsing them. Not a fan of open unrehearsed situations at all.
I still say, have a sit-down and discuss.
in my case they don't consider me nor the drummer important. It's a shame too since we've had to hold service up serval times while the organist wasn't there. They don't care if me and the drummer don't know what's going on at all. As long as the organist is happy they are happy (even if we aren't playing on the same page or able to communicate with each other ::) ).
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Once again, I agree with Uriahl. Jeremy, I feel your pain too doc. I've done the same with my church. Beleive it or not, I'm the main keyboard player and don't play the bass there. I still don't get respect.
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Once again, I agree with Uriahl. Jeremy, I feel your pain too doc. I've done the same with my church. Beleive it or not, I'm the main keyboard player and don't play the bass there. I still don't get respect.
honestly, i could care less about getting respect. I just want us to take the service to another level. What they do isn't what's best for the church. Period. It's even embarrassing sometimes.
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- Get someone to get you recordings of the material that is in play.
- Take a recorder to rehearsals and record the keyboard parts.
- If you're not ready for a certain song, just say you're not ready. The interesting thing is, as soon as you do, two or three others will say "ya know, we could use some time to tighten up that one part"
mal, i been at this church all my life. 26 1/2 years now. so im definitely not new to the church. i only been playing bass for a year now, but i was singing in the choir before that. i can get the music myself, i dont need nobody to make me a CD, just let me know the songs. the problem with that is that the choir, P&W team feel that ANYTHING that has ever been sang in that church from the present all the way back to it coming into existence (late 60's) is fair game. due to limited memory and mid 40's leaders i'd fairly estimate that realistically goes back somewhere in the 90's. So i cant possibly put together a 15 year culmination of songs plus stay on top of anything new just in case they pull it out on sunday morning. the organist be fakin it the majority of the time by chording the exact melody. i could repeat that just by singing the song. $60 bucks for a recorder saved.
a little secret, my home church hasn't rehearsed really in months. I don't understand why, but we be putting songs together on sunday mornings. at this moment, I've been offered to play for another church. Some people just don't get it, so you'll have to work pass them. If someone has BETJ, check out the show Studio Jams. Its a great show to watch and understand how to play at the spare of the moment like professionals. I was watching it at I typed this post.
they used to do that too, not have rehearsal for months, but u gotta sing every sunday. i told them that need to chill. and if u notice in studio jams, they communicate with each other and discuss what they want to do, and have a mini rehearsal before they record. for us its like we comin in and going straight in the booth and hitting the record button with no preparation at all. and my thing if just guys jammin put at least that much effort for just a jam, why cant even that little bit be done and this is supposed to be for God?
youv'e got to stop adding a significance to a situation that simply doesnt exist!....if no one is pressing you for this structure that you feel a need for....then try not to make yourself stress over it.
surely it would be nice if it wasnt that way every time.....but in your case ...they just dont see the structure as importantly as just getting the thing done in a musical fashion.
i love those old school songs. just earlier i was listening to the clark sisters "a praying spirit" that had that vibe. but just flying off the handle uncontrolled and unstructured every week doesnt make me a better musician. thats the thing i tell my drummer cause he gets roll and fill happy to the point where it gets excessive because he has limited structure and foundation in his playing. and when i go play with other skilled musicians they know my role in the song and depend on me to do my part. and when u constantly surrounded by bad habits u gotta constantly fight so that you dont take them on. if i was playing for someone in a show or on a recording, i cant tell them "i dont need the material, i'll just wing it when i get up there". and there are still some gospel songs with a strong definitive bassline. not as much as those but its there and missed if its not played.
in my case they don't consider me nor the drummer important. It's a shame too since we've had to hold service up serval times while the organist wasn't there. They don't care if me and the drummer don't know what's going on at all. As long as the organist is happy they are happy (even if we aren't playing on the same page or able to communicate with each other ::) ).
my case in point. and they was waiting for me to play the songs so they could start rehearsal because neither the drummer or the organist was there. so all the sidebar talk with the organist is really what ticked me off because he wasnt even on time for rehearsal. i told them i couldve been petty and not showed up for rehearsal since they did me like that, and nobody wouldve rehearsed cause im the one with the keys to let them in the church, but i know thats not proper behavior for a man of God. so i just sat there while they had to go through the first half of the rehearsal acapella with no drums.
i guess God knows what he's doing. i wish he'd let me in on it or give me strength.
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honestly, i could care less about getting respect. I just want us to take the service to another level. What they do isn't what's best for the church. Period. It's even embarrassing sometimes.
DUDE, this is where im at!!!!! Yeah i do feel what they do is disrespectful, but by doing that, you cant get no further than where ur at now. How can u say "we'll slap something together" and "i want the Holy Spirit to move" in the same sentence? I feel that i need to be diligent in my craft for God to give the increase, not just expecting him to put the anointing on my "winging it" just because its sunday and i happen to be doing what im doing in church. Now if a preacher/minister/pastor told u he expect someone to be delivered through his message that he gonna slap together 2 minutes before he preach, u'd look at him like he crazy. well when im on my bass im a minister too. when im on my fender or my schecter, its like i brought my black bible or my brown bible.
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So many good posts. Uriah really hit the nail on the head in that if we're not too careful we could take our role too seriously and get stressed out. We all strive to be professionals and we all want to make the best contribution possible to the song.
Also, I think all of us deal with some adversity in our playing situations. For me, it's playing with a keyboardist who doesn't like to hear herself through the monitor so she likes the house volume to be ear-bleedingly loud AND she wants me to turn my volume down. I don't go through the house so I have to keep my volume up. We went back and forth and I finally told her, "I am not going to turn my volume down. We will have to find some other way for you to be able to hear yourself." Jeremy said in his post he retired from his position but he continues to play. Sometimes you have to reposition yourself, and floaded you may have to do that to keep playing (which I believe that you want to continue to do).
I agree with DWBass and Jeremy that structure, collaboration, and communication are better than an absence of any or all of those qualities. But if I can't get them, I am not going to stop playing. I will simply play the songs the best I can and call it a day. God knows my heart and he knows why I started playing bass in the first place. We are part of a larger whole, the whole being offering praises to God.
"Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee." [Acts 3:6]
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So many good posts. Uriah really hit the nail on the head in that if we're not too careful we could take our role too seriously and get stressed out. We all strive to be professionals and we all want to make the best contribution possible to the song.
[Acts 3:6]
I'm not taking a pot shot at anyone, but I believe that everyone involved in the service should take their role seriously. We're in a position to show people the love of God through our music and help usher in his spirit, so with that being said , I don't think that winging it is good enough at all. God gave us his best, so why don't we give him ours?!?!?
It would be different if people actually put forth an effort and stuff still sounded bad, but my problem lies with that people don't want to put for the effort to minister ESPECIALLY when it's the MOM that's in charge!!! People get to comfortable and they just want to get up and there and pull out the status quo that they've established for themselves and the church some xx years ago. I personally can't stand when people just wing it when they're suppose to be dedicated. If you put forth your best effort and you still sound bad, then at least you know that you're giving it your all. If you KNOW you can sound better and you're just winging it then lets face it, you need to find a way to make some changes.
I personally see it as this. You know if you're church is being effective in the community, and if it isn't and you're still doing the same things as when it wasn't as effective you need to step back and look at the scenario.
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I'm not taking a pot shot at anyone, but I believe that everyone involved in the service should take their role seriously. We're in a position to show people the love of God through our music and help usher in his spirit, so with that being said , I don't think that winging it is good enough at all. God gave us his best, so why don't we give him ours?!?!?
It would be different if people actually put forth an effort and stuff still sounded bad, but my problem lies with that people don't want to put for the effort to minister ESPECIALLY when it's the MOM that's in charge!!! People get to comfortable and they just want to get up and there and pull out the status quo that they've established for themselves and the church some xx years ago. I personally can't stand when people just wing it when they're suppose to be dedicated. If you put forth your best effort and you still sound bad, then at least you know that you're giving it your all. If you KNOW you can sound better and you're just winging it then lets face it, you need to find a way to make some changes.
I personally see it as this. You know if you're church is being effective in the community, and if it isn't and you're still doing the same things as when it wasn't as effective you need to step back and look at the scenario.
.....I hear ya...but where does it end?....when are you serious and who decides if you are or not?.....By the way....winging it comes in levels.....I think veryone should bring their best....but the notion that one level of organization is better that another is suspect!
......They didnt give me a cd and week to work it out?.....Please...you had better practice at home and bring it....cuz in most Black churches you are not getting a lead sheet....you get the key....and thats only if the organist has a clue...and stays in one key......
....nothing against organization but...it has little place in a fast paced constantly changing enviornment like a typical Black church sevice.....
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.....I hear ya...but where does it end?....when are you serious and who decides if you are or not?.....By the way....winging it comes in levels.....I think veryone should bring their best....but the notion that one level of organization is better that another is suspect!
......They didnt give me a cd and week to work it out?.....Please...you had better practice at home and bring it....cuz in most Black churches you are not getting a lead sheet....you get the key....and thats only if the organist has a clue...and stays in one key......
....nothing against organization but...it has little place in a fast paced constantly changing enviornment like a typical Black church sevice.....
The "where does it end" question is a very good one that I asked myself. I think if you saw how some of our songs go you'd see some with winging it to the extreme. There are songs we do every single week, but the choir songs can get VERRRRRY rough at times. The CD thing never bothers me at all, because I usually have all the songs already.
I would barely call my church a fast paced constantly changing environment...LOL. Which is what makes it worst.
My very big problem is that when you notice that something isn't being done correctly or could be done better, and when you say "lets try this" it's completely ignored because they don't care and are satisfied with the status quo.
I will agree that there will always be some sort of "winging it" and honestly that isn't what bothers me, it's the lackadaisical attitude about everything else.
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today once again the nonsense with the P&W team has taken me over the edge. the coming to rehearsal with lists of songs to go over without even telling me in advance so i could learn them, having these side chats with the organist regarding what songs to do as if me and the drummer arent musicians as well, and then just totally being unprepared. i flipped on them in rehearsal and didnt play. i didnt want to bother trying to fake songs, and then when they wanted me to play a song that the know i rock, i refused to play. why should i just sit in rehearsal twiddling my thumbs till u snap ur fingers and i just start playing "yes mr. boss man sir". come on.
and the response from both of them was "i didnt know i had to let the musicians know what songs to learn". ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?! Like we just play a few magical notes and make a wish and all of a sudden we can play any song. give me a break. Thats your job if your a P&W leader. then when one of the ladies agrees and says that her husband (who happens to be my mentor, but plays for another church) needs the songs in advance to learn them, they say "we didnt know it took all that". Really, like we just touch the CD and absorb songs. seriously.
i got mad arguing with my aunt, who was one of those people, when i got home. i talked to my grandmother, my brother and at the moment chatting with my sister-in-law, all who are trying to console me. but im still contemplating sunday telling my pastor that im gonna quit.
At the very least, all musicians should have a list of songs prior to rehearsal and service because preparation is essential to a successful rehearsal.
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honestly, i could care less about getting respect. I just want us to take the service to another level. What they do isn't what's best for the church. Period. It's even embarrassing sometimes.
Well, you are correct. I didn't think of it that way, but that's what it should be about.
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...At show time, she wanted to sing songs that we didn't rehearse. I definately hadn't heard the songs, nor did all the choir members. As musicians, we fell into place and the crowd did not know that we didn't know the songs...
Yep. I agree. But every week?? That can become very nerve-wrecking. They JUST started telling me which song we're about to play (30 sec. in advance) and I just totally ignore them. Before, they told me nothing. I had to listen and recognize the first two or three notes and then fall in in a hurry. Talking to them got me nowhere. The best thing I can say is to try and practice very often (on your own) most of the main songs that y'all are playing at the moment. If they catch you off guard and you mess it up, oh well.
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The best thing I can say is to try and practice very often (on your own) most of the main songs that y'all are playing at the moment. If they catch you off guard and you mess it up, oh well.
That's what I do. I'm constantly keeping myself abreast of the latest. It really helps. Even if I don't learn to play the songs, I've heard them over and over that I know the changes in my mind.
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I feel you doc. I recently (as in last Sabbath) retired from my position because of the something along the same line. But mine stems a bit deeper. I'm still playing on Sundays, but at my church there's no dedication to excellence and people are too content with garbage, regardless of the talks.
Sometimes you do need to remove yourself from certain situations, but since they know now mayble they'll change. Sadly, that didn't happen in my case.
Big "J" you are wise beyond your years my bottom brother, when I was in NY we had a gifted brother that played keys (I said gifted not anointed) but his ego was way beyond his gift as he would show up for rehearsal and service late and leave early with his friends. He felt as though without him the earth wouldn't revolve. On Sundays he would frequently play the wrong key, or forget the song because his loyalty was to his personal group and not the church, who by the way was paying him $1000.00 to minister. I finally had enough and quit I had to because I just hate to be in a bunch of mess. I later join the praise team and ministered with that group.
It sounds like its time to have a talk with God and allow him to lead you in determining where he really wants to use you.
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Big "J" you are wise beyond your years my bottom brother, when I was in NY we had a gifted brother that played keys (I said gifted not anointed) but his ego was way beyond his gift as he would show up for rehearsal and service late and leave early with his friends. He felt as though without him the earth wouldn't revolve. On Sundays he would frequently play the wrong key, or forget the song because his loyalty was to his personal group and not the church, who by the way was paying him $1000.00 to minister. I finally had enough and quit I had to because I just hate to be in a bunch of mess. I later join the praise team and ministered with that group.
It sounds like its time to have a talk with God and allow him to lead you in determining where he really wants to use you.
it's funny you mentioned this.
I will play for people that request me to play because then they are USUALLY about business and want to get things right like Mens day.
We are starting a praise and worship team now, so i'll be playing with them. The only problem is finding a keybaord player (which I might have to fill the role until we find someone else). All and all, I'm not completely out the game, but I'm done with being in the midst of a mess.
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I got the songs we were doing today when I got to church. Some I knew well, others not quite as well. It's certainly frustrating, but what do you do? You say a prayer, then play them the best you can. We were in Vacation Bible School this week so there was no rehearsal, but our MOM could have gotten the songs to us sooner than today (and he didn't even call me, he just called the lead musician and that was at 8:30 this morning!). Procrastination and absent-mindedness are in his nature, so what do you do? The answer is, you pray and do the best you can. Yes, everyone should bring professionalism and a Christian attitude to the table but the reality is that everyone does not. But we are still charged with the task to trying to work together.
Pray for one another. Do the best you can.
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Psalm 133 states the following:
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
God is a God of order and harmony. He is not a God on confusion. God wants us to be informed; the Bible states that we (as Christians) perish because of a lack of knowledge.
What am I saying???
God is a God of knowledge and unity; if you find yourself surrounded by covertness and confusion you are not in the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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Psalm 133 states the following:
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
God is a God of order and harmony. He is not a God on confusion. God wants us to be informed; the Bible states that we (as Christians) perish because of a lack of knowledge.
What am I saying???
God is a God of knowledge and unity; if you find yourself surrounded by covertness and confusion you are not in the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
Amen!
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well i did play today, i didnt quit. i had a bit of that "i told u so" spirit though, but i didnt respond to it. the organist was late, the one who they rely on as they ignore us other musicians, but the P&W team had to start with only the drummer. (i always take my time to play cause i stall for the organist, not cause i need him but they never seem to stay in one key if its just the bass playing and that drives me crazy). but all in all, i did learn the choir songs (they do the same thing) but one of them they didnt even sing. i didnt sweat it and went on as best as i could.
i get what u sayin browntree. but the Holy Spirit does come in, but i think the main part of the problem is that people dont develop themselves in their position. For instance, if God called you into the ministry, u should try to continue to refine yourself to become the best minister u can be. but if u dont, u can possibly be a bad or ineffective minister, but that doesnt mean u arent still called. in crude terms, u just need to step ur game up. (***not referring to you specifically***)
i see as we all talk, i see that the common thing here is that we all want to be better bass players and better musicians. we study under others, share resources and experiences, inquire opinions/critique of or methods and techniques and overalls style, experiment and explore to get what we want out of our equipment, etc. None of us just learn the E-A-D-G, major and minor scale and say "im content" and go no further in our craft, but thats the equivalent of what others seem to do in their roles particularly positions of leadership. And thats when u get all this chaos and disorder happening.
on the plus side, i was able to continue writing a song i been working on. its a song born out of despair. its really touched a few people that have heard it as i was working on it. i just hope most of my songs arent born out of despair, because if so i have a feeling i'll find myself back in this place once again in order to experience and complete the song.
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well i did play today, i didnt quit. i had a bit of that "i told u so" spirit though, but i didnt respond to it.
Good for you floaded27...it's all a trick of the Devil
Let me share with you all some things the Holy Spirit explained to me...
-Although we are all Christians we can still allow ourselves to be used by the Devil. He'll creep in (if you let him) and use that little weakness that everyone has against you.
-Sometimes it is the spirit in you that provokes the people around you. That Godly spirit that you exude enrages those unholy spirits in some folks. So it's the spirit in you that they hate... not you personally. This is why when floaded27 decided to bite his tongue and not say I told you so, he let the Holy Spirit reside instead of allowing himself to be used in an unholy way. They want you to say..."I told you so" so they can say "see...he ain't no better than us...".
-Careful of the company you keep; I've been shown lately that Christian friends that I truly enjoy being around, I cannot! Why?? Because although they believe in Jesus Christ, they still deny him because of their own self-serving interests (this one ain't new in music). This is very dangerous; it is not smart to play with the devil. If you give him an inch, he'll take a foot... if you let him convince you that you are a better musician than joe-blow, he'll convince you you are the best thing since sliced bread... see he takes something simple like an opinion and turns it into pride (if you allow him).
-God cannot make you do anything. He has given us free will. The Holy Spirit inhabits his people. However if you are not a TRUE follower of Jesus Christ, the devil can make you do anything he wants. He cares nothing about free will. Why? Because the devil does not inhabit...the devil possesses... this is why you get the reactions you get from some folk. Sometimes they are sweet as pie, and other times they will bite you head off...
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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It could be worse. You could be a member of a church and, even though u are willing to volunteer your gifts, can't play there (or anywhere else with them) unless you are on paid staff.......so they can control u. That is my situation and I tell u, stay encouraged!!
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If God has blessed you with a talent, He will provide a venue for you to use that talent to His glory.
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If God has blessed you with a talent, He will provide a venue for you to use that talent to His glory.
...I dont agree with much....but I definately agree with this!
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It could be worse. You could be a member of a church and, even though u are willing to volunteer your gifts, can't play there (or anywhere else with them) unless you are on paid staff.......so they can control u. That is my situation and I tell u, stay encouraged!!
So you mean to tell me that even though your church doesn't have a bass player, they won't let you play VOLUNTARILY for FREE because you want to be part of the MINISTRY!? That's insane.
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I totally agree with you floaded27. Still sorta kinda having this problem. The director is so sorry with informing us of material prior to rehearsal. Choir rehearsal is just that; not musicians rehearsal. I don't see why they don't understand that we need the material at least a week in advance.
And then when, myself and the organist are trying to get insync on a particular part, they(she) wanna rush as if we suppose to know it already or ya'll can do that later. Yet and still there vocals are nowhere near on point, but I digress.
And then our organist thinks cause he's heard 2 seconds of a song that he knows it and wanna impliment changes; as where I've learned it as I've heard it on the CD.
Browntiplocs, I ALSO play for free! But durn, they won't let you play knowing it's not about the dollar, wow! Question though, "How is it that they try to control you or those who are paid staff?"
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Floaded, I really feel ya, man. I have similar issues with not receiving material in enough time for everyone to learn. There are several musicians with varying skill levels and out of 12, about 3 or 4 of us can pick up the material fairly quickly. The rest aren't used to playing by ear and need time. It really bothers me when they throw stuff on us last minute and only about 4 of us are following, and even then we're faking it.
I also feel you when you talk about seeing an opportunity for improvement, and when you make it known, no one else wants to do anything about it. Most people are more comfortable maintaining the status quo. It's FRUSTRATING to the point that it bothers me when I'm not even at church.
With your issues, man, whatever you decide to do, just remember to keep your head up. Don't EVER give up no matter how frustrating it may be. Do some personal meditation and praying to help you decide what to do. You may find you need a change of church, which is okay. Or, you may find that staying where you are is the best decision.
One thing that may help put things into focus is understanding how much time and energy it would take to persist in really making a change that is needed. Then, think about what you would have to sacrifice to do that and if it would be worth it. In my case, the sacrifice would be my academics. I'm in Tallahassee now to get a degree, not to play. That's just a blessing that came along with it.
Stick with your focus and let everything else go. You can only fight so many battles at one time.
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An observation..................I find it troubling that so many appointed MOM's or those in charge of music ministries don't seem to have that much musical knowledge or knowledge on how to organize an ensemble setting!!
Just wondering......has anyone ever approached the pastor/minister of these churches and asked their opinion of thier music ministry?? If so, were they in agreement with your observations of oblivious to the situations?? Or are aware but just tolerant through faith and prayer??
Just asking..................
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An observation..................I find it troubling that so many appointed MOM's or those in charge of music ministries don't seem to have that much musical knowledge or knowledge on how to organize an ensemble setting!!
Just wondering......has anyone ever approached the pastor/minister of these churches and asked their opinion of thier music ministry?? If so, were they in agreement with your observations of oblivious to the situations?? Or are aware but just tolerant through faith and prayer??
Just asking..................
Great observation. The way we audition MOM is to have them play a couple songs on the piano and the organ. The choir usually decides on a couple songs they want to hear and have the applicant play it fom sheet music rather than memory. There's never been any discussion on planning for an ensemble because until very recently, piano and organ are all that got played in our traditional service. We've introduced bass and drums just in the early contemporary service and for special events in our traditional service.
As for the pastor's pov, he's not really musically inclined and can only respond from the perspective of "I like it" or I don't like it". He doesn't really know enough to provide suggestions.
Peace,
James
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Well, maybe something like this (http://www.insideoutmusic.net/products/church_music_ministry_resource_manual.html) may be in order. I'm of the opinion that some type of organization is needed for any church that decides to start a music ministry. In my experience growing up....my church had a choir only (still does) and always had regular rehearsals and songs were picked and worked on (no surprises) and only performed when deemed ready. This constant attitude of not rehearsing and basically just winging it doesn't sit well with me but that's just my opinion. Also the fact that certain musicians aren't deemed important enough to even respect their wishes to become more organized doesn't sit well with either.
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I meant to say my church has always had a choir+pianist/organist only. No band.
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My current situation is one where the pastor does appreciate the music, but I believe he's got other priorities and isn't as musically inclined to add much value except for general and political support.
Our MoM is not a musician, as far as I know, and definitely appreciates the contributions of the musicians. The biggest problem is that people like it but seem to be unaware of the immense amount of time and effort required to make the music happen. I spend a lot of time trying to show people life at the church from the perspective of our musicians. Rehearsals that go to 11 or 12 at night, practice during the week and the energy it takes to play during service (some days I'm really BEAT after a service).
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(some days I'm really BEAT after a service).
A-MEN!!!!!
I got home today and just plopped down. Doubt I'l lbe doing anything else today.
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As for the pastor's pov, he's not really musically inclined and can only respond from the perspective of "I like it" or I don't like it". He doesn't really know enough to provide suggestions.
true that. my pastor isnt one of those about to cut an album or nothin like that. he cant even really sing, but that was never a requirement (nor should it ever be) to preach/teach or be a pastor. he can say he didnt like something or he liked it or something was missing, but as far as him having that musical insight, it isnt there.
I'm of the opinion that some type of organization is needed for any church that decides to start a music ministry. This constant attitude of not rehearsing and basically just winging it doesn't sit well with me but that's just my opinion. Also the fact that certain musicians aren't deemed important enough to even respect their wishes to become more organized doesn't sit well with either.
DW, organization is totally needed. at one point things were more on point. i think what happened is somewhere down the line people started to feel it wasnt totally necessary and also people who were a part of more than one thing started to feel like if they put in a certain amount of total effort, they can distribute that effort in any way they want regardless of whats neglected and goes lacking
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The biggest problem is that people like it but seem to be unaware of the immense amount of time and effort required to make the music happen
i believe this is the root of this whole issue. people ignorant of the amount of time and effort required of others as well as themselves.
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It could be worse. You could be a member of a church and, even though u are willing to volunteer your gifts, can't play there (or anywhere else with them) unless you are on paid staff.......so they can control u. That is my situation and I tell u, stay encouraged!!
So you mean to tell me that even though your church doesn't have a bass player, they won't let you play VOLUNTARILY for FREE because you want to be part of the MINISTRY!? That's insane.
I thought Browntiplocs was saying that if some churches are willing to swing money around, then they probably feel that they don't need volunteer work from you when they can hire another to do it. Then, if they DO hire you, they'll commit you to every single event that comes up, making their issues top level priority to ALL of your issues. I don't know what Browntiplocs was getting at but that's how I originally received it.
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So you mean to tell me that even though your church doesn't have a bass player, they won't let you play VOLUNTARILY for FREE because you want to be part of the MINISTRY!? That's insane.
This is what I meant. I mean its more to it than this, of course, but it all boils down to this.
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Browntiplocs, I ALSO play for free! But durn, they won't let you play knowing it's not about the dollar, wow! Question though, "How is it that they try to control you or those who are paid staff?"
CONTROL That was their words not mine.
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This is what I meant. I mean its more to it than this, of course, but it all boils down to this.
browntiplocs, you have gotten to play in opportunities many of us have only dreamed of or seek to achieve, but cant volunteer to play at your own church. kinda puts my situation in perspective. i do have some freedom there and a little input (although i think its only because im one of the few people upon whose shoulders is the survival of the church). but also realize that for some (and me for a while), that it is a "if i cant play at church i cant play at all" situation.
i guess the moral of the story is count your blessings. it seems that each of us has a piece of the puzzle that someone else is missing and the pieces we're missing someone else has. we can pray for each other that one day God completes each of our puzzles.
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i guess the moral of the story is count your blessings. it seems that each of us has a piece of the puzzle that someone else is missing and the pieces we're missing someone else has. we can pray for each other that one day God completes each of our puzzles.
Amen to that, floaded. None of us have the same situation, nor do any of us have an ideal situation (ideal is in the mind of the beholder). But God is in control of all of our situations, and He will see us through to wherever it is He would have us to go.
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hey man im a organist and i feel your pain most people in church even most choir directors really don't know or understand music and feel the other parts are not necessary and think that the drums and bass and guitar can just fall in and just jump in behind the organ and it dont work like that and then churches wonder why they have a bad music department
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Can I put my two cents in? At my church we have the MoM the pianist (or musician as everyone calls him like me and the drummer are just decorations >:( ) me on bass and two drummers. My frustraion comes from the laziness and unwillingness to work on our music department. I can't remember the last time whe had a musicians' rehearsal. Our MoM, pianist and main drummer all get paid but I play for free. And its not about the money by any means but you would think that if someone was paying you to do something you would want to give your best. I am also a victim (if I may use that word) of not being told the songs we are going to play at choir rehearsal until the day before at the earliest. Most times I'm never told I just show up to rehearsal and when the choir starts to sing I have to just go for what I know. VERY FRUSTRATING! And back to the money part. How can you complain about your amp not being any good or complain about the keyboard not being up to par when you could easily use what you're being paid to buy new gear. I, on the other hand, haven't even been offered new strings for my bass. Then they complain about not getting paid enough and the money isn't really worth getting but my question is what do you even do that's worth getting paid for. Last time I checked showing up late and not being prepared weren't considered good work ethics. I think a lot of people get complacent in their position and money only adds to it. People have the mindset that "well I'll play what I know and I'm still going to get my paper." That is the reason why I don't play for money. I don't want to cloud my mind. In time I'll get rewarded for what I do. Playing bass is more than just a hobby for me and more than just something fun to do. Its the way I express my heart to God and it's really frustrating when people don't share the same passion for what they do because there should be a spirit of unity in anything that you do for ministry. When you don't have that unity it puts a strain on the ones who really have a heart for the ministry we are in. My two cents. Sorry so long.
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I don't want to cloud my mind. In time I'll get rewarded for what I do. Playing bass is more than just a hobby for me and more than just something fun to do. Its the way I express my heart to God
I THINK MY GOD FOR AH HEART OF WORSHIP...