LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: seemunny on July 05, 2008, 01:02:51 AM
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When the question comes up about musicians learning "music theory", there are at least a few levels that one could take it to.
I'm personally still learning each day (thanks to resources like LGM, Hear & Play, and others...), but there may be certain very elite levels that i may not be so interested in. However, i ABSOLUTELY feel that there is a CERTAIN AMOUNT (or a certain level) of music theory that a musician could certainly benefit from if he/she chooses to do so. I call that the "practical level" or the "meat" of it.
And it seems to me that basically the "practical level" consists of:
1) Understanding what the "number system" is.
2) Understanding "how to build ANY chord", and...
3) Understanding "common chord progressions", which also touches on the circle of 5ths.
Now, of course there are a lot more areas & details to cover, but it seems that, if you can get to this level, (which is not very difficult at all), then you have just created an "internal teacher". And that amount of knowledge can allow you to "self-teach" yourself into the future and other areas.
All i'm trying to do is to keep it short, but yet cover the most important areas. If i can do that, then i'm satisfied.
The three elements above is how i see it at this point. It seems to me, those three elements are the most critical areas, that if you know them, that's when your learning can start to speed up, and you can really start to get your "self-teach" on that will take you to the next levels, or however far you wanna go.
For all you theory heads, did the above three element cover "the meat" of it (while keeping it as short & concise as possible), or where there any HUGE omissions? 8)
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this is really good info to me.. so can you reply with Step 1. Understanding the Number system. How do we find the number system and how do we apply it to our playing?
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For all you theory heads, did the above three element cover "the meat" of it (while keeping it as short & concise as possible), or where there any HUGE omissions? 8)
CO-SIZZLE!!! Dude, I been preaching teaching this since I 1st started posting about theory on this site. If you know, understand, and utilize those 3 pieces of music theory, then that should suffice for the average musician.
However, for those wanting to go to that next level of "music theory", u will find that this is just the gateway to it.
this is really good info to me.. so can you reply with Step 1. Understanding the Number system. How do we find the number system and how do we apply it to our playing?
Come on Kish, I'm sure u know the number system already. In it's simplest form, it is just the notes of the major scale turned into numbers. So, ur first job b4 even trying to apply it to your playing is to go through EVERY major scale and turn them into numbers. Time to come out of C# my friend, LOL.
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Come on Kish, I'm sure u know the number system already. In it's simplest form, it is just the notes of the major scale turned into numbers. So, ur first job b4 even trying to apply it to your playing is to go through EVERY major scale and turn them into numbers. Time to come out of C# my friend, LOL.
yea I know it but whta I guess I am trying to do is... on a lot of websites Theory is just throwin everywhere... and it is hard for a person (well maybe just me) to sit down and graps or understand this stuff. take 2+2=4 we have been tought that since preschool but when you say 3+1=4 or 1+1+1+1=4 or 2+1+1=4 you learn all those formulas later, I guess what I am really trying to do and I am working on it now, is as I learn my theory getting a book together that is really orgainized and really teaches the simple but fun way of learning your numbers, theory, music, etc. bc some theory is easy for you guys but to a person that has a hard time understand that stuff is greek. I don't know maybe I am just confussing myself, lol.
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yea I know it but whta I guess I am trying to do is... on a lot of websites Theory is just throwin everywhere... and it is hard for a person (well maybe just me) to sit down and graps or understand this stuff. take 2+2=4 we have been tought that since preschool but when you say 3+1=4 or 1+1+1+1=4 or 2+1+1=4 you learn all those formulas later, I guess what I am really trying to do and I am working on it now, is as I learn my theory getting a book together that is really orgainized and really teaches the simple but fun way of learning your numbers, theory, music, etc. bc some theory is easy for you guys but to a person that has a hard time understand that stuff is greek. I don't know maybe I am just confussing myself, lol.
Where is your beast of a cousin?
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:)
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Where is your beast of a cousin?
she is here... i see right now i am going to have to shut your mouth up ;D ;D ;) ;)!!!
give me this week.... I will upload some stuff of her playing.
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That's very good C$$..I don't think you omitted anything major..
So I'm not so much irritated by people shying away from music theory as a whole, but from these 3 elements..These are the foundations to help someone to be able to communicate musically in a practical way..funny because we get on so well with my sis now because we speak the same language & I no longer have to say you "do this then that, then you go there & do this.. ::)" no concepts whatsoever..& that just encourages learning in that 1 key only! :'(
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This is some real good stuff here... ;)
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Understanding WHICH number system to use is important as well. I was lost until I got educated as to what you all were talking about here. I am still walking around like a newborn with this system. When I use a number system it is based on jazz theory, which is based on chord relevence to the static, non-movable tonic or Key of the actual tune. It is a far jump from the number system here because I use Roman numerals and flats, sharps and alterations to further my verbiage.
For example: your number system may right something like this ----> 2 - 5 - 1 (In my head, I do not have enough information to make
chord decisions. Major?, minor?, augments?)
Mine would be written as -----> ii - V7 - I (this tells me the two chord is minor, the five chord is both major and dominant
and tonic is major)
I learned recently that if we base your numbering on the figured bass (major scale), then 2 would be minor, 5 would be major and 1 is tonic. I don't know where the extentions come in. Where do you get diminshed, augmented, or 9ths, 11ths, or 13ths from?
The system I learned tells you exactly what it wants: I(ma7) - VI(b9) - ii9 - V7(b9)
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Understanding WHICH number system to use is important as well. I was lost until I got educated as to what you all were talking about here. I am still walking around like a newborn with this system. When I use a number system it is based on jazz theory, which is based on chord relevence to the static, non-movable tonic or Key of the actual tune. It is a far jump from the number system here because I use Roman numerals and flats, sharps and alterations to further my verbiage.
For example: your number system may right something like this ----> 2 - 5 - 1 (In my head, I do not have enough information to make
chord decisions. Major?, minor?, augments?)
Mine would be written as -----> ii - V7 - I (this tells me the two chord is minor, the five chord is both major and dominant
and tonic is major)
I learned recently that if we base your numbering on the figured bass (major scale), then 2 would be minor, 5 would be major and 1 is tonic. I don't know where the extentions come in. Where do you get diminshed, augmented, or 9ths, 11ths, or 13ths from?
The system I learned tells you exactly what it wants: I(ma7) - VI(b9) - ii9 - V7(b9)
Actually, the number system is relatively the same. When we say 2-5-1 we mean, generally, the two being minor the five being major and the one being major as well.
Also, we add the extensions the same way you do in Jazz. You'd have to look around at the way different folks use the number system.
Hope that helps.
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I love this place... I am always in learning mode... ;D
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I love this place... I am always in learning mode... ;D
I'm tryin' to really learn how to incorporate my left in playing these chords. I can do two note LH 'chords' and sometimes, when I think about it, use tri-tones in those incorporations, but my rhythm? You'd swear I was white. :-\
But, I feel you about the learning mode.
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I'm tryin' to really learn how to incorporate my left in playing these chords. I can do two note LH 'chords' and sometimes, when I think about it, use tri-tones in those incorporations, but my rhythm? You'd swear I was white. :-\
But, I feel you about the learning mode.
:D :D :D
Just sit down and learn your chords on your LH man. As far as tri-tones are concerned, at least you can play them. We play so much CCM stuff at church that there is no room for tri-tones. I tried putting in a tri-tones once and got the Evil Eye. My church is not used to hearing dissonance in music.
I love this place... I am always in learning mode... ;D
What i have learned on LGM is priceless. I have looked everywhere for info on playing gospel music and this is about the only place i can find it. Plus roughly 95 percent of it is free.
***Sticks nose in air***
The non-free stuff is beneath my level. (These sour grapes taste good) ;D
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Well, I am a white boy so maybe I can help you :D
I cover this in my Intermediate Jazz forum Lesson 1: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,57684.0.html (http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,57684.0.html)
If you use these voicings, you will find yourself hopping along with the II-V7-I progression in no time :)
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:D :D :D
Just sit down and learn your chords on your LH man. As far as tri-tones are concerned, at least you can play them. We play so much CCM stuff at church that there is no room for tri-tones. I tried putting in a tri-tones once and got the Evil Eye. My church is not used to hearing dissonance in music.
What i have learned on LGM is priceless. I have looked everywhere for info on playing gospel music and this is about the only place i can find it. Plus roughly 95 percent of it is free.
***Sticks nose in air***
The non-free stuff is beneath my level. (These sour grapes taste good) ;D
So, stop playing dissonant tri-tones....duh!! :D You can play tri-tones that are smooth and won't get you the evil eye. ;) 8)
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but my rhythm? You'd swear I was white. :-\
Well, I am a white boy so maybe I can help you :D
***In a sing-song voice***
Awkward...
In any case i need to stop by the jazz forum. Id din't know it was active again. It had been dry for a while and there were some gems in there.
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For example: your number system may right something like this ----> 2 - 5 - 1 (In my head, I do not have enough information to make
chord decisions. Major?, minor?, augments?)
I'll tell ya a little secret man, when I first started posting stuff using regular numbers instead of roman numerals, I was just trying to create a way to learn the pattern of a song and transfer it to other keys easily. I just stuck with learning the bass notes, then leaving the chord decisions up to the individual. U can play whatever chord u want to, as long as u got the right bass to go with it.
I have been through the classical and jazz theory in school as well, so I can understand why someone like urself would be lost using anything other than Roman numerals. I did kinda get this system from figured bass notation, but wanted to keep it in "dummy" terms for people who hadn't been to music school.
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I don't get what is so confusing. If i use a 2 or ii or II, it's are all the same thing.
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I don't get what is so confusing. If i use a 2 or ii or II, it's are all the same thing.
Believe it or not Fenix, written out like that all three of those say 3 "different" things. It all depends on how u been taught:
2 = 2nd scale degree
ii = minor chord on 2nd scale degree
II = major chord on 2nd scale degree
I agree with ur thinking cuz when I see 2 in any form, I know exactly what sounds to expect. Others may need a little more information.
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I don't get what is so confusing. If i use a 2 or ii or II, it's are all the same thing.
Sort of. The number 2 does not tell anything but location. (this is just me here)...
II means Major
ii means Minor
So when I say: II - V7 - I it means something different than ii° - V7 - i
I get confused when I see 2 - 5 - 1 because I am still trying to figure out what the quality of these chords will be. I know that there is a two chord and a five chord and a one chord, but what kind? Major, minor, what? When you come to the jazz area, I will use my form of numbers.... When I come to this area, I am trying to learn this one. It is hard for me because I am not seeing the big picture yet...
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Sort of. The number 2 does not tell anything but location. (this is just me here)...
II means Major
ii means Minor
So when I say: II - V7 - I it means something different than ii° - V7 - i
I get confused when I see 2 - 5 - 1 because I am still trying to figure out what the quality of these chords will be. I know the are a two chord and a five chord and a one chord, but what kind? Major, minor, what? When you come to the jazz area, I will use my form of numbers.... When I come to this area, I am trying to learn this one. It is hard for me because I am not seeing the big picture yet...
Oh ok now i understand. See for me, when i see a 2 or II, i immediately assume it will be a minor.
Your form makes sense though.
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Oh ok now i understand. See for me, when i see a 2 or II, i immediately assume it will be a minor.
That's where u may mess up man. 90% of the time it will be a minor of some kind, but then u got that other 10% u gotta watch out for, LOL.
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Block I didn't knw all this.. 2 - minor 5 - () and 1 - major... see i am yet again lost... this too much for me to soak up right now I will tackle this after VBS this week... :( >:( >:( >:( ;) ;)
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Block I didn't knw all this.. 2 - minor 5 - () and 1 - major... see i am yet again lost... this too much for me to soak up right now I will tackle this after VBS this week... :( >:( >:( >:( ;) ;)
Hi Divinemusician,
Maybe I can help a bit with this particular question. When you see a 2-5-1 here you may assume it refers to the diatonic chords of whatever key you are in. BUT your ear should be the guide as to what you play. Those numbers are a very good starting point. Leading tones are the next key as to where you are going or could go. I personally just really let my ear lead me to what I should try (based on the numbers)
That 2 could mean any minor chord built off of the 2nd scale degree that fits what you hear, or it could be a secondary dominant that fits with the melody of what you hear.
*Remember that most of the time people are referring to a song they are able to hear, and thus apply that progression to what they hear.
Let your ear be the guide as to what chord quality fits.
I personally use a slightly different form of the number system here. It's called the Nashville Number system.
I posted an example of it a while back. It basically tells you everything you need to know about a chord.
For example: -2 5 1 means minor 2 chord to a major 5 to major 1 chord.
If I place a triangle and a little 7 next to the number 1 then that would be a major 7th chord
1+ means an augmented 1 chord
b6 means a chord built off of the flatted 6th degree of the scale.
When there is a slash chord, I put the bass underneath just like a fraction 1
3
I had to adapt my system so others could understand it even though I personally like the number system. I just think that a system built somewhat from a figured bass model seems to work best for gospel music given the endless possibilities when it comes to harmonizing a melody.
So to sum it all up, we basically use our ear after we get the numbers down or we use our ear to get the numbers which will give us a starting point. A starting point that begins with the diatonic chords but could take you to many different possible combinations.
I hope I have not confused you any further! LOL I have a tendency to confuse myself at times.
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I use that systm a lot as well in lieu of the Roman numerals although I have diffuculty finding the triangle for the major7 chords. I got used to using the roman numerals cause there was no mistaking a II from a ii and a hyphen could be still used to separate your sequences. That is the only differences between the Nashville system and the one I presented :)
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this is really good info to me.. so can you reply with Step 1. Understanding the Number system. How do we find the number system and how do we apply it to our playing?
Umm, in an effort to be concise & as brief as possible (Fat chance! lol):
Chords:
Chords have ingredients. Not (milk, eggs, and butter) but rather (1s, 2s, & 3s) or NUMBERS!!
example:
major7 chord = (1, 3, 5, 7)
minor7 chord = (1, b3, 5, b7)
dominant7 chord = (1, 3, 5, b7)
Where are these numbers at? They are located in "The Major Scale" or the (doe, rae, mee, fah, so, lah, tee, doe) scale.
Instead of saying (doe, rae, mee...etc) you would replace it with NUMBERS: (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
In the key of C, that would be all the white keys starting with C to the next C (C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C)
Therefore, if you wanted to play the major7 chord (1, 3, 5, 7), you would locate the Major Scale, and find the chord NUMBERS! (Left Hand on 1...Right Hand the rest with 1 as well IF YOU LIKE HOW IT SOUNDS. You don't have to play 1 in the Right Hand as well, if you don't want to).
It may look like this:
LH = Left Hand
RH = Right Hand
LH / RH
1 / 1, 3, 5, 7......(C / C, E, G, B)
or scramble/rearrange the numbers (invert):
1 / 7, 1, 3, 5 .....(C / B, C, E, G)
or
1 / 5, 7, 1, 3......(C / G, B, C, E)
You need a list of all (or nearly all) of the "chords" with their ingredient numbers so you'll know what ingredients are found in all the chords. I think there are lists here at LGM or various sites online that has them. Here's one i found some time ago http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/chordformula.htm (http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/chordformula.htm)
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Just so you'll know how to find the "Major Scale" in OTHER keys besides C (the white keys),
THIS IS THE MAJOR SCALE FORMULA:
w = whole step
h = half step
root = your 1st note, which is the key that you're in. (key of C = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C)
(root, w, w, h, w, w, w, h)
This Major Scale Formula will Never Fail! Use it to find you Major Scale, so you can use your "Number System!"
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If you locate your major scale, then put your thumb on 1, then play "every other" note to make a four note chord, since your thumb was on 1, it's called "the one chord"
If your thumb is on 2 and you play "every other note", that chord is "the two chord". Keep going all the way up to "the seven chord". 8 starts back over as one again.
In the easy key of C:
[size=12pt]One chord:[/size]
C / C, E, G, B
Two chord:
D / D, F, A, C
Three chord:
E / E, G, B, D
Four chord:
F / F, A, C, E
Five chord:
G / G, B, D, F
Six chord:
A / A, C, E, G
Seven chord:
B / B, D, F, A
Now you're back at "One"....very good!
Lastly, keep in mind...those seven "scale degree" chords that you just played, the notes of those chords can be REARRANGED in any way YOU want. Whichever way sounds best to YOU in whatever music situation you find yourself in.
By rearranging the letters, the chord STILL remains the same!!! (i can't stop! lol)
You should know this:
Those seven "scale degree" chords are each in categories, and here they are:
Tone 1 chord = (major)
Tone 2 chord = (minor)
Tone 3 chord = (minor)
Tone 4 chord = (major)
Tone 5 chord = (dominant)
Tone 6 chord = (minor)
Tone 7 chord = (half diminished/minor b5)
With a clear understanding of this information, you are now equipped with the seeds of Beasthood! Now, go forth and prosper, with a growl! 8)
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By the way, i'm sure T-block and others may have all this info at LGM in all the proper academic terms, but this was my "hurried" and brief "ghetto version". lol
But i still hope you can get something from it! lol 8)
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By the way, i'm sure T-block and others may have all this info at LGM in all the proper academic terms, but this was my "hurried" and brief "ghetto version". lol
But i still hope you can get something from it! lol 8)
yea they do but i love how you broke it down down down... i understand that and will print it out adn apply it
ladyn thanks as well
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By the way (again)...let me just throw something else in here just so you'll know:
Each category of chords such as (major, minor, and dominant) have many types of chords in them.
Meaning, the major chord category contains many types of major chords.
example: major7, major9, major6/9, major7b5, etc...
same with the minor category:
minor7, minor9, minor11, minor7b5, etc...
also with dominant as well:
dom7, dom9, dom9b5, dom13, etc...
My point is this: You can replace any major chord with any OTHER major chord, or any minor chord with any OTHER minor chord, or any dominant chord with any OTHER dominant chord.
And you would do this to achieve different "flavors!"...That's when you're really starting to take control of your SOUND!! REMEMBER THIS!!
But be sure to get the ingredient number to all the chords. That's like your chord blueprint!! GROWL!!! (http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/13.gif)
8)
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By the way (again)...let me just throw something else in here just so you'll know:
Each category of chords such as (major, minor, and dominant) have many types of chords in them.
Meaning, the major chord category contains many types of major chords.
example: major7, major9, major6/9, major7b5, etc...
same with the minor category:
minor7, minor9, minor11, minor7b5, etc...
also with dominant as well:
dom7, dom9, dom9b5, dom13, etc...
My point is this: You can replace any major chord with any OTHER major chord, or any minor chord with any OTHER minor chord, or any dominant chord with any OTHER dominant chord.
And you would do this to achieve different "flavors!"...That's when you're really starting to take control of your SOUND!! REMEMBER THIS!!
But be sure to get the ingredient number to all the chords. That's like your chord blueprint!! GROWL!!! ([url]http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/13.gif[/url])
8)
thanks
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yea they do but i love how you broke it down down down... i understand that and will print it out adn apply it
ladyn thanks as well
So glad to hear! I'm serious. You type so loud, i literally heard it! "PLUNK! PLUNK!" (http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/13.gif)
lol jk...ty 8)
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I love the ghetto version C$$$ 8)
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I love the ghetto version C$$$ 8)
Well alright then! So glad to hear Mus! lol My ghettology was not in vain! (http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/41.gif)
8)
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Also, something else that you should be aware of, if you're not already:
In music, the numbers that you use to form chords go up to "13". Here are the numbers that are used in making chords:
(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13)
(You don't normally see (10 or 12) so don't worry about it. 10 would be the same note as 3, and 12 would be the same note as 5).
For chord ingredient numbers past or beyond "8", you just continue the major scale until you reach "13".
example in the key of C major:
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A
or
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13
or
C1, D2, E3, F4, G5, A6, B7, C8, D9, E10, F11, G12, A13
Pretty simple, huh?...Good!
(note: Notice how both 1&8 are "C", and 2&9 are "D", and 4&11 are "F", and 6&13 are "A". Recognizing these "TWIN numbers" will become very useful and necessary when locating numbers for all kinds of various "phat" chords! Remember that!)
Lastly, remember this when forming a chord by using the "numbers":
If you want to play a 3, you can play a "high 3 or a low 3", it doesn't matter! The only thing that matters is the fact that it's a THREE!...or WHATEVER number it may be!
(Don't get locked into thinking that a certain number MUST be in one particular location. BECAUSE, AS LONG AS THE LETTER NAME IS THE SAME, THEN YOU CAN TRY IT OUT IN YOUR CHORD!)
The same thing goes for ANY of the numbers. If you want to play a 4, you can play it high up where the 11 is, or you can play a lower 4, the (high/low) register doesn't matter, except for "how good it sounds".
The sole purpose of using the numbers are simply to help you LOCATE the correct note. So if the 1 is letter F, that means you can play ANY F on the keyboard to form your chord. Just make sure the one you pick "SOUNDS GOOD". 8)
Oh Lord, what is this beastly creature i have unleashed!