LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: timbass2882 on August 05, 2008, 12:04:25 AM
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I just looked on rondo music website, and I seen the jazz sx 5 string for 169, also a brice six string for about 500 dollars. Both was made out of solid ash bodys just like any other high end bass. The brice neck and body was one price which is good for the price alone. I know they say you get what you pay for, but looking at the wood they use is the same wood they use to make high end basses. I could be wrong, but I feel maybe if you change the electronics you would get the same bass that you would pay a $1,000 for, I also heard alot of basses being played, and I heard these basses played. Not to much of a differents, just think if you change the electronics what you would get. Sometimes I think its just a mine game. Dont get me wrong I am not talking about any type of bass thats made out of bass wood that a different story, but I think some times we are paying a arm and a leg for some ones name on these basses, and everyone just got so wraped up in the name not the bass. If some one was to buy a cheaper bass build with the same wood as a dream bass put the same electronics in the the cheaper bass as the dream bass. I think it would not be that much of a different. Let me know what you guys are thinking!
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I play an SX Jazz 5 from Rondo ($150 shipped, purchased three years ago) every Sunday. It meets my needs and my playing situation. I am debating whether to make some modifications (bridge and tuners) or just go with a Fender MIM Jazz 5. Or just keep playing it as is. My other bass is a MIM Fender fretless Jazz 4 ($325 used).
Would I spend $3000 on a Ken Smith or a Callowhill or some such? Never. I have a wife, two children, a mortgage, etc.
Would I spend $2000 on a Sadowsky or a Lakland or a Marcus Miller? Nope, same answer.
Would I spend $1000 on an American Fender or a lower end Lakland? Maybe, but only if my playing situation changes (which would include my compensation, but that's another thread for another day).
I will let those who play higher end basses talk about their motivations and the perceived and actual differences between factory and boutique basses. From what I have read here, those basses are well worth the money. But worth is relative and in the eye of the beholder.
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IMO, you pay for both. To a certain extenet, you do pay for what you get but there are often some viable low-end basses that aren't so bad at all. Another thing to consider, at least for some people, is the economic impact of buying a product that is not made in the USA. There are people who will spend the extra money for a MIA Fender because of the satisifaction they get by supporting American workers.
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I think most basses made on CNC machines are overpriced and we're paying for the name! You can't really put a price on a well made, hand made instrument though! $3K for a Sadowsky? No way! Even though they are fine instruments but I don't think they are worth that kind of coin! I'd much rather buy parts from Warmoth or Allparts and build my own and quite literally have the same quality of bass! Personally, I think $1000-$1500 should the ceiling for any production bass!
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I personally think it's a little of both.
First you have to separate USA instruments from overseas instruments.
To say that a luthier's time is only work $2.00 an hour is absurd and an outrage, so part of the price has to do with supporting your country and it's workmen.
They need to make a living just like the rest of us, so when they charge a price that lets them end up making a measely $12.00 (for the most of them) an hour we can all but complain.
Secondly you need to understand that all instruments are not in the same category and some (not all ) of the cheaper instruments have critical design flaws (I personally would go crazy if any of my instruments had a dead spot ANYWHERE on the fretboard). So you're also paying for the R&D that goes into developing the little things that take them to the next level. Not to mention there are guys that specialize in what us Gospel Cats are looking for. That says ALOT!
If you can get by with a cheaper instrument, you won't see me knock you for it. I have recently just stepped up, and after playing the CallowHill's/Ken Smiths/and USA MTDS there's no way I would ever go back to the lower level (or anything else other then a CallowHill).
Even the USA Fenders are pricey (and it's for the same reasons above). If you love playing, and you'd like to see the evolution of basses continue then I say you most definitely need to support your USA luthiers[shameless plug] I recommend CallowHill [/shameless plug]
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A little of both. But, with the name, (hopefully) you're getting experience, craftsmanship, attention to detail, expertise, luthier's time...etc. Also, you have to factor in the cost of materials (exotic woods, PUPs, Preamps, bridges, tuners). The first $1000 - $1200 (maybe even more depending on what you order) will be the recovery cost for materials to make the bass.
When you pay for MTD, Ken Smith, Callowhill, Brubaker...etc, there's a certain expectation that comes with the name on the bass. Is it worth it? Worth is a subjective thing.
Personally, I've gotten to the point where I'll let my playing situations determine what I buy and how much I spend. But, I would love to have a custom bass someday.
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There comes a point of diminishing returns. What I mean is, you can pick up two totally different instruments and quickly determine that instrument A is waaaay better than instrument B. The reasons bringing you to that conclusion are many and varied. It could be the weight or the balance or the feel of the neck or the ease of set-up or the sound you hear unplugged or the sound you hear amplified or the number of tonal variations you get by playing with the controls or the........you get the point.
Now, if each one of those things means something to you, you will be willing to pay a lot more for an instrument that delivers it all than for an instrument that delivers some and ignores other elements. Since you and I are different people and different players, what I identify as good neck feel that I would be willing to pay extra for, you could determine is not important at all. You may not even notice that there is a difference in neck feel.
Where you get to a point of diminishing returns is (in my opinion) once you get in the $1,800 - 2,500 range, you have to EXPECT that each manufacturer has all the key elements that make a bass great NAILED. Then you are at a point where player preference with regards to appearance, finish, hardware (black, gold, chrome plated, adjustable) is what drives the price of the bass.
For example, I have two basses that have side LED markers. Do they add to the cost of those basses? You bet. Do they contribute to tone or playability? Heck no! So why do I have that feature? Because I can. Simple as that. And the value I place on having that feature will be different than the value that Jeremyr places on it which will be different than the value that funkStrat_97 places on it, and DWBass might even reject the bass because it has the feature.
When you get into the Alembic / Sadowsky / MTD / CallowHill / Ken Smith / Fodera price ranges, you are dealing with basses that HAVE TO have all the tone quality, build quality, material quality, playability issues NAILED and the rest of the price is the cost of having it made your way, with the options and features you want on it. You can spend a lot of money adding features to any one of those basses that have diddly to do with the sound your audience hears. But none of those companies is hurting for business.
Now, don't get me wrong, each of those brands I mentioned produce tones that will make you fall in love with them. Alembic, MTD, and Ken Smith in particular have their own defining tones that other basses can't seem to totally copy. Those tones will in some cases be the reason why someone choose that particular brand, but it will not be a reason why they chose to pay more for it. For example, the Alembic tone is not worth $3,000 more than the Fender tone, but I would pay $3,000 more for an Alembic than I would for a Fender because of what the total package brings. I would also be perfectly happy with a $500 Made In Mexico Fender. Each instrument is what it is.
Long post.....Lotta words.....hope it makes sense and lends something to this discussion.
Peace,
James
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This is what a music store owner told me, who has played guitar for 20 some years and been in the music industry for 30 some years. He said the days of a $1500.00 dollar bass are slowly coming to an end. Reason for this is that there are a lot more cheaper basses today that play and sound just like the more expensive end basses. (By cheaper I mean being made overseas). He showed me a $100.00 guitar with about $500.00 put into it with. He had put better pickups, better bridge, a different nut on top and maybe one or two other things (nothing with the body itself). He then showed me a $1400 dollar guitar that had an awsome body, beautiful finish, nice neck and it had similar quality of pickups and bridge. Now the $1400.00 dollar one did have a couple more things than the cheaper one. It had a D drop and a whammy bar. But, as far as playing and sound quality, he said they both play and sound great.
So his point was, you generally pay for the name, the looks and finish of a guitar/bass but, as far as sound and playability it is a matter of preference. He got the same sound with the cheaper one as his expensive one by just changing pickups.
This is my experience. I will take a Peavey Cirrus BXP 5 String i recently purchased. There is BXP and a USA model currently made. The BXP is made in Indonesia and the USA duh . . here. Anyway, I have heard both and think they both sound great. It has a tone that I like well. I payed 600.00 dollars brand new for BXP. The USA model cost (well ask JeremyR LOL) at the least double the price and higher. The USA model difference is adjustable string spacing and gold plated bridge/tuning heads/knobs. Now, Peavey claims they are the same bass just made at different locations. As far as looks, I would have to say they both look great. With the USA model you can get different finishes where as the BXP is set with just 3 finishes. So yeah the USA has more options but, not any better sound.
The pickups are exactly the same. Both basses in my opinion sound pretty close the same. Now, I know your going to get different tones with different kinds of wood but, I am just sticking with a USA and BXP same model. They are both a great bass. I think it is more of a mind set and what you prefer to play.
Matt
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My best friend used to work for a major guitar manufacturer and eh showed me a bass he was building for himself. He just bought the parts wholesale with a slight hook-up as well. The bass retailed in stores for at least $1500-$2,000 at the time. He told me that those parts that he had(minus the electronics) cost him about $67. That changed my whole view about buying guitars. In this day and age it;s pure and simple capitalism. If you want something bad enough, you will pay for it no matter what the cost. That's one reason why the econmy is in such bad shape. People have bought what they wanted instead of what they should have. You best believe that Fender is making plenty of money off of all these copies via licensing for the parts and shapes. Plus some of the major companies are charging you for "American" guitars that were made overseas. The parts were made overseas, then shipped to America for assembly. Bam, it's "American Made" and the price reflects this. Some people are so caught up in patriotism now that they will spend more to support the "home team."
They even do this in the car game. The Cadillac Escalade is a Chevy Tahoe with a different front and rear fascia and lights. Same with the Lincoln Navigatorand Ford Expedition. Remember when Jaguar came out with the X-Type? It wasn't anything but a fFord Contour with dioffernt body panel and interior pieces. It costs at least $12,000-$15,000 more. That's the name of the game. People will pay more for an Escalade because they want an Escalade.
As far as the Boutique brands, they have more overhead because of materials, and the level of labor. Also, they have to make up for the lower sales numbers because of their turnaround on product. Plus some of their woods are much more rare compared to the big boys. Same thing goes with them tooin the end though. If you want it, you'll buy it no matter what the cost.
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Here's my thing with this. You pay for what you want. If you want a $3k+ instrument, you'll buy it. If you don't then you won't. The reason I say that is because people have there own preferences and they just like what they like. I just purchased a car for my wife. It's the Infinity QX56. While it is the same vehicle as the Nissan Armada it sells for a lot more. But that's what she wanted. By the time i would have made the upgrades to make the armada what she wanted in the QX i could have just bought the QX which is what I did. Some things come standard in certain brands and some you have to upgrade to get to that point. So why buy cheaper and have to upgrade when what you want costs a little more? Save your money and get what you want.
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Fender, Peavey, Warwick, Yamaha, ESP/LTD, Gibson, Dean etc...
Subtract:
1) Advertising
2) U.S. Wages or Asian, Czech, Mexican wages
3) What the market will bear for "Name Recognition"
Materials for the Big guys are CHEAP!
So a Mexican Fender sells for 300-400. It cost Fender about $20 to make. A 1300 bass cost them about $21 to make. Why? Because the market will bear 1300. The upgrade doesn't hurt them. Same bass as the 300 onejust a few "upgrades".
MM, MTD, (Warwick used to fit in here) etc.
Cost a little more to make because they still have a little hand craft. But still CNC and production parts.
It might cost them 50 to make.
So if you have only got 300-1200 to play with...shop around. Play as many basses as you can within your price range. Don't discount getting used either.
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They even do this in the car game. The Cadillac Escalade is a Chevy Tahoe with a different front and rear fascia and lights. Same with the Lincoln Navigatorand Ford Expedition. Remember when Jaguar came out with the X-Type? It wasn't anything but a fFord Contour with dioffernt body panel and interior pieces. It costs at least $12,000-$15,000 more. That's the name of the game. People will pay more for an Escalade because they want an Escalade.
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I CLEARLY understand your point, but you could not have picked a worse example. Spend a week with a Tahoe and a week with an Escalade and you'll understand. There is functional content in an Escalade that is simply not available in the Tahoe. The engines are different. The AWD systems are different. The interior trim and seating materials are different. I could go on and on. They ARE built on the same chassis, so a lot of the the things you don't see are the same, but they really are different animals.
I have spent almost 30 years at GM, the past 15 in Product Planning. I know of what I speak on this particular subject. As I've said, I CLEARLY understand what you mean. I just have to throw the flag on this example.
Peace,
James
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Value is in the eye of the beholder. Some see the $3000 price tag as a symbol of vanity and irresponsible marketing. Others see it at as a symbol of quality and prestige. The real truth is somewhere in between. You definitely get better materials and finish with a more expensive bass, but you're also buying into the inflated perception of value that both big companies and solo luthiers force onto the market.
Personally, I couldn't justify spending that much on a bass when I can get good sound and good playability out of a $300 bass. I also have kids and a mortgage (and other hobbies besides music), and it just doesn't seem to make that much difference to me. If I were a much better player, or were making lots of money playing, then I might be willing to invest in a more expensive bass, but my MIM PJ and Ibanez 505 suit my circumstances just fine. Again, for other players, an expensive bass is worth what they have to pay for it.
The issue of supporting American workers is definitely a point to consider but the instrument manufacturers are partly to blame for this situation. The markup on American basses, particularly the assembly line models, is pretty outrageous and, in the attempt to provide models at all price levels, the manufacturers create foreign models at a budget price and then market them as student or beginner models for those who can't afford the "real" version. I'm all for supporting American industry but the businesses have as much blame as the consumers here. While we're on the subject of paying more to buy American, are you also willing to pay more to support local music retailers rather than getting the big discounts from musiciansfriend.com or Guitar Center?
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I CLEARLY understand your point, but you could not have picked a worse example. Spend a week with a Tahoe and a week with an Escalade and you'll understand. There is functional content in an Escalade that is simply not available in the Tahoe. The engines are different. The AWD systems are different. The interior trim and seating materials are different. I could go on and on. They ARE built on the same chassis, so a lot of the the things you don't see are the same, but they really are different animals.
I have spent almost 30 years at GM, the past 15 in Product Planning. I know of what I speak on this particular subject. As I've said, I CLEARLY understand what you mean. I just have to throw the flag on this example.
Peace,
James
Do they make more profit off of an escalade, than a tahoe?
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Many good points, especially those dealing with marketing, capitalism, and the support of the American economy. The same arguments could be applied to just about any consumer product that is available either from a manufacturer or an individual craftsman.
If I could afford, say, a $3000 bass, and if my ear became good enough to distinguish tonal differences due to wood, electronics, hardware, etc., then I might look into a boutique bass. But I am nowhere near either of those conditions (especially the latter), and 75 percent of us (if we readily admitted it) aren't either.
Buy and play what you can afford. Buy and play what makes you happy. Life is too short and they don't make hearses with luggage racks. :)
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Do they make more profit off of an escalade, than a tahoe?
Hard to say. There is more REVENUE on an Escalade, but there is also more COST in content.
Actually, BFBT's example of Tahoe and Escalade is relevant from a different point of view. If you look at an MTD Z5 as a Tahoe and an MTD 535 as an Escalade. Both the Tahoe and the Z5 will get the job done in very fine fashion, The 535 and the Escalade do the same basic job as the Z5 and the Tahoe, but they use finer materials and more feature content that although pleasing to the customer, do not impact the ability to get the job done.
Peace,
James
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While we're on the subject of paying more to buy American, are you also willing to pay more to support local music retailers rather than getting the big discounts from musiciansfriend.com or Guitar Center?
if there were any local to me then yes
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Interesting views.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/ptidwell/popcorn.gif)
reserving my opinion for now.
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Interesting views.
([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/ptidwell/popcorn.gif[/url])
reserving my opinion for now.
Yeah man. This is always a fun one. There have been several points made on all sides which are very valid, I'm interested to see where this one goes...
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Yeah man. This is always a fun one. There have been several points made on all sides which are very valid, I'm interested to see where this one goes...
[STRIKING SLAVE WHIP IN THE AIR FURIOUSLY] BACK TO WORK!!!! [/trIKING SLAVE WHIP IN THE AIR FURIUOSLY]...LOLOL
Just messing with you tim.
I would however, Like for you to express your viewpoint on the subject seeing as you're a builder
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Yeah man. This is always a fun one. There have been several points made on all sides which are very valid, I'm interested to see where this one goes...
I would say in the case of Callowhill Bass Guitars, you definitely get what you pay for. From the body and top woods, to the paint jobs, it's all high quality and not some cookie cutter gear. As simple as the wood etching on the headstock, it's all custom. Even with the electronics. Most of the big boys give you Barts, but they're just licensed versions and not some of their best examples. Who else gives you Norstrands standard? Norstrands are in no way cheap. The fact that he chooses those are pretty indicative of the concern for quality vs quanity. I gots to get me one of those one day.
Now some of the other production basses costs the same amount and they give you nowhere near the same quality of workmanship. Most of the time you're just paying for the name on the headstock. The fact that they're willing to take shorts by offering different levels of quality shows you what's important to them. If the top of the line model is the best why not give your customers that all across the board? It's something to think about.
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Okay, I guess its time to chime in with my opinion, there seems to be generalization as to who these brand names are that are selling a name but an inferior instrument.
quite humbly I am a boutique buyer, I own MTD, Nordstrand, Skjold, and Ken Smith, MTD & Skjold I own more than one of, I have owned other boutique bass but have become very fond of MTD & Skjold. I have spoken with all of these luithiers, at length concerning woods, pickups, electronics, scale lenth, fret wire, the tone I am after the fell of the neck, the balance of the bass etc. I don't know how many folks here would know the difference between a bass that is hand crafted or CNC'd, and I don't know who can build a bass with parts totaling $50.00 massed produced other than maybe Brownsville basses ;D, Just the ability to talk to the luithier and hear his opinion first hand on what work and what doesn't is a value you never get with MIM Fender, or Ibanez, and Yamaha which all made good basses, but Carey delivered my Nordy to my house personally (the picture of Nordy players on his site he look of me receiving my bass)
Maybe that's not a value to you. Mike Tobias was on vacation and took time to work through an issue i had when my MTD was stolen. Pete Skjold time and attention, suggestions and wood selections have been worth the price that from what it sound most who have posted on this thread would not pay. Many of you here are buying CallowHill, I recently talked with Tim just expressing my interest in his basses, and what I would like from his shop, and he was more than helpful and knowledgeable and has a future client. I am saying all that to say this, if what I am reading is to imply that, the for lack of a better phrase the lower priced basses are equal to the boutique brands less electronics and pickups, and that the build quality is equal to a handcrafted instrument, and the ability to select woods, hardware, customized electronics, exotic tops, and the like doesn't cost the luither more time and attention to detail doesn't significantly raise the price, I am probably way off base with my opinion. I would like to know what I should be buying that after the initial say $500-$600 pluss a $200.00 upgrade will render me and instrument equal to my boutique's I will convert. but this is just IMHO.
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I feel ya pt. Shoot, after playing Gouche's MTD, I was like, wowwww. One day me and my coworker brought in all our basses. We had a fender custom shop 4, my 5501, his Musicman, his Sadowsky P/J, a Ken Smith, and his Custom Alleva Copollo LG-5. And just like the lineup, the feel, sound and quality went up with each one. I thought about this when I read this thread. Each of them can get it done, but if I had to choose out of that group, the AC would come with me lol.
I'll just say this, dont pick up any boutique basses and you'll never even have to know what the difference is LOLOL.
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Very well put PT. I met Mike Tobias and had a lengthy conversation with him at NAMM a few years back. That is one man that is super serious about his craft. He was a little upset when I started talking to him and he stated that it was because of what happened to his brand after the Gibson deal. He was so upset about what he saw at their booth. I thought that their versions were ok, but he said they were "CRAP." Forgive me if that is not allowed here. I mean this man was livid. That actually made me respect him more. He let me know that he cares about the product above sales. That's what I am looking for now in a product. How far are you willing to go to please me as a customer the first time out?
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+1 to PTidwell... The custom experience is just that...CUSTOM. A great luthier will customize your instrument to YOUR taste, YOUR needs, and YOUR desires. To me, that's worth a lot. To be able to call Mike Tobias and discuss my order, past builds, future builds, or just the weather in New York is worth a lot. Moreover, after knowing Mike for only a couple years, I now have a fluent knowledge of different wood types and how they affect tone. The education alone is worth the extra coin... Then to fly out and be a part of our project... What starts out as a purchase can become a relationship. Then there's the quality of craftmanship... :o :o :o MTD4LYFE!
God bless ;)
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Another +1 for PTidwell's comments.
I have a bunch of boutique basses and an MIM Fender that I modified. My total cost for acquiring the bass and modifying it was $545. That includes buying the bass used, adding an Audere preamp and Aero pickups, adding a tort pickguard and the chrome Fender pickup and bridge covers, and acquiring a bound / block neck.
It sounds absolutely GREAT!
Does it compare AS A TOTAL PACKAGE to any of my boutiques? No. I invite anyone in the Detroit area to spend some time with my modified Fender and any of my more expensive basses and tell me honestly what your perception of overall quality (tone, workmanship, balance, playability) would be.
With all the things I've done to the Fender, I've improved tone considerably and I've improved appearance (IMHO) considerably. All the other things (workmanship, balance, playability) are the domain of the luthier.
My Fender is a $545 bass that plays like a $1,000 bass. Everything else in my collection is what it is. They all retail for more than $2,000 and in my own comparisons to the Fender, it shows. Now clicking back to the questions posed by the OP, I could EASILY make due with my MIM Fender in most situations. My audience might never know the difference. I prefer to play the others because they do everything the Fender does and then some and they do it (IMHO) better. PTidwell's post highlights issues relative to company support. I can say that the support I've received from Alembic and Roscoe, in particular, has been astounding. I'm a phone call away from the owners of both companies. I know that Mike Tobias is the same way. I hear great things about Tim at Callowhill.
At the end of the day, it all boils down to a matter of choice and feel. You will find that most people who own more than one "boutique" bass will tiell you that they ARE worth the extra money. Or logically they would never have bought the second one.
Peace,
James
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I think it really boils down to cost vs worth. Worth is so subjective.
Somebody might say it's worth it just to be able to talk to the luthier and get his opinion/suggestions on woods, electronics...etc. Whereas somebody else may not be interested in talking to the luthier (other than to place his/her order).
One person might say the feel and sound is 1000x times better. Another might say "yeah, it's better but, not $2000 better".
Also, if somebody is paying a mortgage, daycare for their children, a car payment (or two) and playing on Sunday morning for next to nothing, maybe a boutique bass isn't worth it.
Personally, I think if you are smart about who you choose to build your instrument, you do get what you pay for. Whether it's worth it or not is for each individual to decide for himself. The good thing is there are some quality, inexpensive, instruments (that you can actually gig with) out there for those of us who don't have the money for boutique basses right now.
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PT is on point. Mjl422 said, "I think it really boils down to cost vs worth. Worth is so subjective." I think that sums it up really well too. I've talked many potential customers out of buying a bass from me because I could tell they need to spend their money elsewhere. "Yeah, I'm flattered you got a quick windfall of cash and want a CallowHill, but aren't you the same dude who was calling me a year ago and unable to buy one because of a new addition to the family? Put that money away and think about it for a few months."
The CNC thing with Roger is a whole can of worms. Dhagler is a guy who I really respect on this forum, but if anyone saw what Roger gets back from the cnc shop they would quickly understand that there is a HUGE difference between a Sadowsky and a Warmoth. Roger and his crew have several skilled operations of carving, sanding, trueing, and fretting before the pieces they get even resemble a neck that compares to a "finished" Warmoth. Same deal for the bodies. The end result is an instrument that is worth every penny.
At the end of the day, my view is that no one has a right to belittle someone for spending $300 on a bass, and no one has a right to belittle someone for spending $3000 on a bass. I could write a book on the whole subject, I suppose the last thing I'd point out is that while many guys in my position charge around 3K for a bass, we aren't doing it to get rich. We are commited to our craft and work incredibly long hours to do what we do, building a 3K bass with uncompromising materials and methods is NOT a rich man's game. It's actually a modest living requiring a ton of hard work and patience.
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You get what you pay for. Who wouldn't want something customized like this?
(http://a515.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/62/l_37024dcabee839a8b39d513ef7609a7a.jpg)
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The CNC thing with Roger is a whole can of worms. Dhagler is a guy who I really respect on this forum, but if anyone saw what Roger gets back from the cnc shop they would quickly understand that there is a HUGE difference between a Sadowsky and a Warmoth. Roger and his crew have several skilled operations of carving, sanding, trueing, and fretting before the pieces they get even resemble a neck that compares to a "finished" Warmoth. Same deal for the bodies. The end result is an instrument that is worth every penny..
Thats the same here in chicago at the lakland factory. I've been there MAAAAANNNYYY times and have had first had experience and looks at the build process while talking to Carl Pedigo (who btw is an AWESOME guy) and really all the cnc does is cut the *outline* of the bass neck. ther'es still TONS of work that needs to be done before the neck could ever be considered finish, unless you like playing a bass who's neck profile resembles a hybrid lego/lincoln log...LOL
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Dhagler is a guy who I really respect on this forum, but if anyone saw what Roger gets back from the cnc shop they would quickly understand that there is a HUGE difference between a Sadowsky and a Warmoth.
Did I say something I didn't hear me say? ?/?
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This video here will help clear some things as to why people go towards boutique basses. You'll see the time and effort put into basses. This is Ken Smith basses.
http://www.webcastgroup.com/webcast/window_new/frameset.asp?WebcastID=3149&n=&e2=&c=&nf=&nl=&r=&i (http://www.webcastgroup.com/webcast/window_new/frameset.asp?WebcastID=3149&n=&e2=&c=&nf=&nl=&r=&i)
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Did I say something I didn't hear me say? ?/?
Aaaah!!!!! I'm such an idiot! I meant DWBass, the "D"s threw me off. I'm sorry! :-[
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This video here will help clear some things as to why people go towards boutique basses. You'll see the time and effort put into basses. This is Ken Smith basses.
[url]http://www.webcastgroup.com/webcast/window_new/frameset.asp?WebcastID=3149&n=&e2=&c=&nf=&nl=&r=&i[/url] ([url]http://www.webcastgroup.com/webcast/window_new/frameset.asp?WebcastID=3149&n=&e2=&c=&nf=&nl=&r=&i[/url])
thank you SOOOOO much for this video!!!!!
This stuff blows me away!!!! Hopefully the deal for my house goes through soon, so I can start making mine.
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thank you SOOOOO much for this video!!!!!
This stuff blows me away!!!! Hopefully the deal for my house goes through soon, so I can start making mine.
Props on the house, praying it goes through....
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Aaaah!!!!! I'm such an idiot! I meant DWBass, the "D"s threw me off. I'm sorry! :-[
Thanks, Tim. I read back over my posts a couple of times just to be sure. :)
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Props on the house, praying it goes through....
thanks man.
Here's a picture of said house in question.
(http://mredllc4.connectmls.com/PICS/50A831CA350AF131E040010A33016F6C/m_P_1214837066913_1228_s_15_001.JPEG)
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Thats the same here in chicago at the lakland factory. I've been there MAAAAANNNYYY times and have had first had experience and looks at the build process while talking to Carl Pedigo (who btw is an AWESOME guy) and really all the cnc does is cut the *outline* of the bass neck. ther'es still TONS of work that needs to be done before the neck could ever be considered finish, unless you like playing a bass who's neck profile resembles a hybrid lego/lincoln log...LOL
Well said. I hold dhagler (sorry again) and dwbass in highest regards around here (among many others) so I wasn't knocking dwbass, I just wanted to make it clear that cnc parts are often a mess when you get them. I cnc alot of my own stuff in house with my own machine, but I do it because it allows me to focus on the fine hand work and get more of the rough stuff done more efficiently. Roger, Lakland - those guys bring some real craftsmanship and skill to the table.
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PT is on point. Mjl422 said, "I think it really boils down to cost vs worth. Worth is so subjective." I think that sums it up really well too. I've talked many potential customers out of buying a bass from me because I could tell they need to spend their money elsewhere. "Yeah, I'm flattered you got a quick windfall of cash and want a CallowHill, but aren't you the same dude who was calling me a year ago and unable to buy one because of a new addition to the family? Put that money away and think about it for a few months."
The CNC thing with Roger is a whole can of worms. Dhagler is a guy who I really respect on this forum, but if anyone saw what Roger gets back from the cnc shop they would quickly understand that there is a HUGE difference between a Sadowsky and a Warmoth. Roger and his crew have several skilled operations of carving, sanding, trueing, and fretting before the pieces they get even resemble a neck that compares to a "finished" Warmoth. Same deal for the bodies. The end result is an instrument that is worth every penny.
At the end of the day, my view is that no one has a right to belittle someone for spending $300 on a bass, and no one has a right to belittle someone for spending $3000 on a bass. I could write a book on the whole subject, I suppose the last thing I'd point out is that while many guys in my position charge around 3K for a bass, we aren't doing it to get rich. We are commited to our craft and work incredibly long hours to do what we do, building a 3K bass with uncompromising materials and methods is NOT a rich man's game. It's actually a modest living requiring a ton of hard work and patience.
Yo that 7 string Callowhill on TB is THE BUSINESS. Keep carving, dude...
God bless
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thanks man.
Here's a picture of said house in question.
([url]http://mredllc4.connectmls.com/PICS/50A831CA350AF131E040010A33016F6C/m_P_1214837066913_1228_s_15_001.JPEG[/url])
Sweet! Nice Curb appeal. Home ownership is exciting! This your first?............just realized, I'm straight jacking this thread... :)
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Sweet! Nice Curb appeal. Home ownership is exciting! This your first?............just realized, I'm straight jacking this thread... :)
[/quote
hahah,
yeah this by the grace of God will be the first. Just waiting on the Bank to accept the offer (the owners accept, but since it's a short-sale the bank has to approve as well).
It's a got a huge deck and gazebo in the back too.
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hahah,
yeah this by the grace of God will be the first. Just waiting on the Bank to accept the offer (the owners accept, but since it's a short-sale the bank has to approve as well).
It's a got a huge deck and gazebo in the back too.
That sounds real nice..
I understand about short sales... I was on the other end of a short sale, 3 years ago... it was our 3rd house we were building on 16 acres, just outside of the city. I was Building it myself, two years after starting, the bank started getting real particular about how I was finishing it out. So I sold it before I rolled over my construction loan, to a conventional. We are looking to get into another house soon. So I am excited for you and your family (praying all goes well).
and +1 to what Tim said... (so I can stay on topic)
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So when did you say the LGM Bass GTG was gonna be jeremy?? :D :D Thats great man. Do you get a bass room too?
Oh, and a brotha is saving everything from seat change to almost soda cans to fund me a Callowhill or a Pavel one of these days. ;D
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thanks man.
Here's a picture of said house in question.
([url]http://mredllc4.connectmls.com/PICS/50A831CA350AF131E040010A33016F6C/m_P_1214837066913_1228_s_15_001.JPEG[/url])
Nice. Got the Hollywood wrought iron gate and errrrrrrrything.
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So when did you say the LGM Bass GTG was gonna be jeremy??
Whenever you guys get to chicago ;-)
Do you get a bass room too?
Indeed. If the deal goes through I'm going to pick up a drum set and get my Organ from detroit that my mom is holding onto for me.
Oh, and a brotha is saving everything from seat change to almost soda cans to fund me a Callowhill or a Pavel one of these days. ;D
Get the CallowHill, You WILL NOT regret it!!!!
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Great looking house man. Hope and pray it all goes as planned for you both.
That KSB video was great. Sat here and watched the whole thing. Made me realize and appreciate even more his basses, as well as what Tim is doing over there at CallowHill pretty soon on my J(unk)5!!
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I hope no one was mad at me for posting what I post, Its all in love Just wont to let tim know I was not trying to knock what you and other builders, are trying to do. I know you guys put your foot into everything you do. I always wonted to know why everything cost so much. Now I know why you price them that why. So no hard feeling, Its just that this post was a question I had for years. seeing what everyone had to say. Help me out alot, and I know money can be hard to come by for some of us. I never played a callowhill bass maybe I will try one out one day. The house is yours Jeremyr have fun, and God Bless everyone.
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thanks man.
Here's a picture of said house in question.
([url]http://mredllc4.connectmls.com/PICS/50A831CA350AF131E040010A33016F6C/m_P_1214837066913_1228_s_15_001.JPEG[/url])
if only Tim from callowhill built houses. lol!!! i guess those other guys will have to do. maybe u could get the logo on the side of the house. free ad space for tim. and make sure Torch's guest room is hooked up. lol
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timbass2882 - no harm, man. You ask a question on a forum and you get many answers to consider. I think that is what this forum is all about, just ask! You get multiple opinions back, and you decide for yourself.
With regards to building houses. Hmmm... Here's a cool kitchen counter top I made from Walnut I bought from Ken Smith. Ken joked he should've charged me more for the wood...
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/callowhill/P1010005.jpg)
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With regards to building houses. Hmmm... Here's a cool kitchen counter top I made from Walnut I bought from Ken Smith. Ken joked he should've charged me more for the wood...
([url]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/callowhill/P1010005.jpg[/url])
a kitchen countertop??? i wouldnt let you sit a glass on that with a stack of coasters. lol. i'd just stare at that and order in.
you'd be great for people buying their 2nd or 3rd house just to show off to people but not actually live in. lol.
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With regards to building houses. Hmmm... Here's a cool kitchen counter top I made from Walnut I bought from Ken Smith. Ken joked he should've charged me more for the wood...
([url]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/callowhill/P1010005.jpg[/url])
Put a bridge, tuning pegs, and some nice electronics on one side of it and make it a dual-purpose counter top.
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timbass2882 - no harm, man. You ask a question on a forum and you get many answers to consider. I think that is what this forum is all about, just ask! You get multiple opinions back, and you decide for yourself.
With regards to building houses. Hmmm... Here's a cool kitchen counter top I made from Walnut I bought from Ken Smith. Ken joked he should've charged me more for the wood...
([url]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/callowhill/P1010005.jpg[/url])
That shole is purty!!! Tim I play 7-strings. Whatchu got? (F#-C)
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a kitchen countertop??? i wouldnt let you sit a glass on that with a stack of coasters. lol. i'd just stare at that and order in.
....
LOL!!
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I hope no one was mad at me for posting what I post, Its all in love Just wont to let tim know I was not trying to knock what you and other builders, are trying to do. I know you guys put your foot into everything you do. I always wonted to know why everything cost so much. Now I know why you price them that why. So no hard feeling, Its just that this post was a question I had for years. seeing what everyone had to say. Help me out alot, and I know money can be hard to come by for some of us. I never played a callowhill bass maybe I will try one out one day. The house is yours Jeremyr have fun, and God Bless everyone.
I'm pretty sure no one is upset at you. I think that it's good to see the differnt views from differnt people.
Honestly, I think that you really don't appreciate a custom bass until you've played one extensively.
I cam from the Schecter and Rogue Crew, so I've been on both sides of the argument. You can clearly see what side I ended up on as well :D
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timbass2882 - no harm, man. You ask a question on a forum and you get many answers to consider. I think that is what this forum is all about, just ask! You get multiple opinions back, and you decide for yourself.
With regards to building houses. Hmmm... Here's a cool kitchen counter top I made from Walnut I bought from Ken Smith. Ken joked he should've charged me more for the wood...
([url]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/callowhill/P1010005.jpg[/url])
SHUT THE DOOR!!! You do counter tops too!!!!!
I want to redo the counters in the kitchen of the house if I get it!!! You are seriously about to get some orders if you still do them..LOL.
O and floaded, you are CRAZY..ROFL!!!!
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SHUT THE DOOR!!! You do counter tops too!!!!!
I want to redo the counters in the kitchen of the house if I get it!!! You are seriously about to get some orders if you still do them..LOL.
O and floaded, you are CRAZY..ROFL!!!!
see what i done started. my bad Tim. when jeremy starts houndin you night and day, just remember i said i was sorry.
well, at least u get that free ad space on the side of his house. lol
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see what i done started. my bad Tim. when jeremy starts houndin you night and day, just remember i said i was sorry.
well, at least u get that free ad space on the side of his house. lol
See, this is why you get custom basses.
Becacuse you can get a custom countertop Delivered at the same time!!!! Now tell me if Fender would do that for you..LOL
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timbass2882 - no harm, man. You ask a question on a forum and you get many answers to consider. I think that is what this forum is all about, just ask! You get multiple opinions back, and you decide for yourself.
With regards to building houses. Hmmm... Here's a cool kitchen counter top I made from Walnut I bought from Ken Smith. Ken joked he should've charged me more for the wood...
[IMG]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/callowhill/P1010005.jpg[/img
Tim thats nice you guys have your hand into everything shines just like a nice gloss finish on a new bass.
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SHUT THE DOOR!!! You do counter tops too!!!!!
I want to redo the counters in the kitchen of the house if I get it!!! You are seriously about to get some orders if you still do them..LOL.
O and floaded, you are CRAZY..ROFL!!!!
Jeremy,see I've had a great deal of these basses that has been spoken of and the only 2 that I wish I would've kept was my 88 Ken Smith/ Jackson 6 string ( because that was one of the last Ken Smiths that Vinnie ( Fodera ) put together,and my 92 Fodera Monarch ( which basically was in essence a fancy jazz bass but it sounded killer ) all the others ......well let's just say that I started to get a little weary of the boutique bass market. Now I will say this that Mike ( Tobias ) is proably the luthiers of all luthiers when it gets to wood and I get the he's has to make a living ( we all do ),but after years of doing this and going to NAMM shows ( early in my carreer ) I wasn't as convinced that all was needed was a good Jazz Bazz and not really a real expensive Jazz ( been down that road too ! ) but hey I agree buy what you like whether it's $50.00 or $5000.00,but IMHO the boutique,highend market of most of these basses are socalled AAA or AAAAA ( like I would know that ! ) woods and a good setup !