LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: floaded27 on August 21, 2008, 09:55:04 AM
-
One of my drummers friends came to my church friday during a rehearsal and we were having a jam session while waiting for everyone to show up so we could start. He came before so i knew who he was and his playing ability and he knows mine. I feel he's better than me and later on during the night he said to me "Teach me something." And i was like "You should probably be teaching me something. You're better than me." He said he didnt know his scales, even though he's able to do runs and chording and stuff. So i showed him, but im like, ur already using it.
So which is the better position to be in? One who has better skill on the bass (including technique, style, fills, chords, etc) but limited theory knowledge, or one who has a more extensive musical knowledge but not as skilled?
i believe it may depend on the setting in which one is playing, but for me the theory knowledge helps me better communicate with other musicians, play based off of written music and lead sheets, and create my own music.
-
One of my drummers friends came to my church friday during a rehearsal and we were having a jam session while waiting for everyone to show up so we could start. He came before so i knew who he was and his playing ability and he knows mine. I feel he's better than me and later on during the night he said to me "Teach me something." And i was like "You should probably be teaching me something. You're better than me." He said he didnt know his scales, even though he's able to do runs and chording and stuff. So i showed him, but im like, ur already using it.
So which is the better position to be in? One who has better skill on the bass (including technique, style, fills, chords, etc) but limited theory knowledge, or one who has a more extensive musical knowledge but not as skilled?
i believe it may depend on the setting in which one is playing, but for me the theory knowledge helps me better communicate with other musicians, play based off of written music and lead sheets, and create my own music.
honestly I'm going to have to say that the guy with more extensive theory knowledge is better off. And here's why
If you have more extensive music theory knowledge whether you know it or now you have more musical knowledge, HOWEVER you might not be using it.
Someone that knows theory well can go anywhere and pretty much just sit in (I've done it several times). This is how you get guys that come and kill on the first take. It's a been there done that kind of them.
You have to learn how to EXPRESS that knowledge. That's the biggest thing that separates you from the other guy. You already know more than him, you just have to learn how to use it. That includes phrasing, rhythm, spacing, and timing.
The guy without theory knowledge won't be able to pick up a song (for the most part) as fast as a guy that picks out the same old progression and realizes that there are just filler notes in between to fill up the sound.
-
I agree with Jeremy. Last night I played with three different choirs and I was able to pretty much catch on to the songs because of the very limited knowledge I have about progressions. I might not have been as expressive, and my fills may not have been as good as another player but I was on tempo and on key and pretty much in the pocket with the drummer.
On the other hand, there's much the two of you can teach each other. I meet many bassists who can't read music but will show me runs and fills that are applicable anywhere.
-
Hands down, the person with the knowledge of theory. Like Jeremy, I've been in situations where i didn't know songs, but because I knew theory, understand progressions how certain chords lead to a certain change, I was able to wing it and make it do. Recently, I had an impromptu audition this way. The bass player asked me to sit at the keyboard, the praise and worship leader was going over some songs for an upcoming workshop. I sat down not knowing any of the songs. The bass player was calling out chords and progressions and I made it through. Well, this past Tuesday, my keyboard is set up at that church now ready for me to play this sunday because i've been invited to join that church's band. I'm happy because I was already looking for a new church home where I can use my gift. If I didn't have the knowledge, I wouldn't have been able to do that. EDITED - I took out my scenario original scenario so that I don't offend anyone. If you didn't get a chance to read it, then I won't bring it back up.
-
Ouch!!!!!!! That was uncalled for. I just got my GED and love music!!!! (thinking out loud) Does Canada have something equivalent to a GED?
I like what Jeremy said another metaphor using the infamous language theory. You know how to read and have read more books than your high school dropout friend, but he can caress the heck out of the english language, while you always get tongue tied. With some practice you should be dealing with his case, cause your have a deeper reserve and understand how words are strung together. While he has a natural nack for speech he just a wordsmith. But the tables can turn.
People who are educated just sound and appear smarter, if you dont study the WORD you cant know it while some people can just go up in the pulpit and exhort but soon enough it will show that their knowledge is limited and the dont study while the guy who studies all the time starts to shine even though he isnt a natural speaker.
Dont read to deep into this!!!!!!! It only goes so far.
-
I just read Cordney's thing at the bottom of his page and it says" Hard work beats talant, when talant refuses to work hard" That speaks volumes... What does that saying mean? The tough part is how do you put that knowledge into action?
-
I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my scenario, I removed it from my original post. Again, I apologize.
-
honestly I'm going to have to say that the guy with more extensive theory knowledge is better off. And here's why
If you have more extensive music theory knowledge whether you know it or now you have more musical knowledge, HOWEVER you might not be using it.
Someone that knows theory well can go anywhere and pretty much just sit in (I've done it several times). This is how you get guys that come and kill on the first take. It's a been there done that kind of them.
You have to learn how to EXPRESS that knowledge. That's the biggest thing that separates you from the other guy. You already know more than him, you just have to learn how to use it. That includes phrasing, rhythm, spacing, and timing.
The guy without theory knowledge won't be able to pick up a song (for the most part) as fast as a guy that picks out the same old progression and realizes that there are just filler notes in between to fill up the sound.
I have to disagree, even if Im in the minority. Mainly because of this. Pocket, rhythm, spacing, phrasing, and timing (and some others) have nothing to do with theory (and they are soo unrecognized its crazy). Im well versed in theory now, but I played without really utilizing theory for atleast my first 10-12 yrs and I was always getting called. I mean I was gigging with all kinds of groups from jazz to salsa to whatever. I think in our realm we take some of those other elements for granted, because growing up in church, we mostly get alot of those, esp. groove engrained even if we dont start on an instrument for a while. And I mean lets be real (esp. all my theory heads) its ALOT easier to learn theory(a fixed area) than it is to learn how to lock with the drummer (a more variable area) or the difference between playing a Hez song and a Canton Spiritual song. There are alot of advanced players that still dont do that well. Ive met ALOT of musicians that can tap dance theory in and out, but could groove to save their life or play in a specific style. And on the other end, Ive actually taught a person theory in ten minutes at a GC. I know I sound anti-theory alot, but thats not the case. I will always encourage someone to learn theory because you should try to obtain all you can, and Im not trying to degrade the importance of theory (because MOST of what others say is true, I just want to emphasize the importance of the other elements.
-
I have to disagree, even if Im in the minority. Mainly because of this. Pocket, rhythm, spacing, phrasing, and timing (and some others) have nothing to do with theory (and they are soo unrecognized its crazy).
You can have a pocket, but if you're hitting the wrong notes it doesn't matter.
You can hit the right notes and play very simple and sound great.
-
DD, I sent you a PM. I wasnt offended by your post. I thought it was funny actually. I thought my whole does Canada have a GED equivalency showed that. I graduated from high school and got a biomedical engineering degree... so I was amused by that. But now after you apologized I can see how that could be thought of as offensive.
-
to me, i believe theory isnt limited to whats commonly printed in books or listed on websites. once you can formulate a concept in an attempt to explain why something is what it is or does what it does, then thats theory. If someone says "hey bass player, i want this song to have a reggae feel" and you understand why (or even ask and get explained to you) what makes a reggae feel just that, then thats a piece of theory. Honestly, I cant understand why a person who claims ultimate knowledge of music theory cant groove to save his life. Understanding why a groove grooves is a fundamental part of theory, and that should be the first thing you try to learn how to apply before anything else. Apparently he has the priorities of his music theory out of order.
So i guess its one one extreme you got a guy that knows stuff but dont know how to apply it and on the other end you got a guy who applies stuff but doesnt know what he's applying. The ultimate goal is to be consistently in the middle as you grow; as you learn more stuff you learn how to apply it and be capable of doing so.
im just a person that cant just play stuff and not understand why im playing that and why it works. and for me thats expanding my theory. just find it a bit difficult to go the other way around. lol
-
You can have a pocket, but if you're hitting the wrong notes it doesn't matter.
You can hit the right notes and play very simple and sound great.
True, but lets look at the original question.
So which is the better position to be in? One who has better skill on the bass (including technique, style, fills, chords, etc) but limited theory knowledge, or one who has a more extensive musical knowledge but not as skilled?
I'd rather have a cat that can groove the roof off with a pentatonic based solo, than a cat that cant really groove as well but KNOWS more scales or what have you. He also said that the first had some theory.
-
to me, i believe theory isnt limited to whats commonly printed in books or listed on websites. once you can formulate a concept in an attempt to explain why something is what it is or does what it does, then thats theory. If someone says "hey bass player, i want this song to have a reggae feel" and you understand why (or even ask and get explained to you) what makes a reggae feel just that, then thats a piece of theory. Honestly, I cant understand why a person who claims ultimate knowledge of music theory cant groove to save his life. Understanding why a groove grooves is a fundamental part of theory, and that should be the first thing you try to learn how to apply before anything else. Apparently he has the priorities of his music theory out of order.
So i guess its one one extreme you got a guy that knows stuff but dont know how to apply it and on the other end you got a guy who applies stuff but doesnt know what he's applying. The ultimate goal is to be consistently in the middle as you grow; as you learn more stuff you learn how to apply it and be capable of doing so.
im just a person that cant just play stuff and not understand why im playing that and why it works. and for me thats expanding my theory. just find it a bit difficult to go the other way around. lol
Believe it or not most black folks know theory... they may not know what a Gm7 is but if a soloist is singing they know what chord to play. Improvisation/playing by ear is theory... It's your own interpretation of what you feel and hear.
-
The funny thing about theory, a lot of folks learn just enough to get by, but to me, the more you learn, you realize there is so much more to learn... :)
I was just having a discussion with my brother, Sean, and he began to break down why certain movements work, and the application borrowed chords, and my tongue just dropped, to the floor. I immediately realized I have so much more to learn.
And just when I began to think, he was like the YODA of music theory, he began to rave about a friend of his that invokes the same reaction from him that I just had...
Now back to the original question. I tend to lean toward knowing theory, but not only knowing it, also being able to apply it to your playing. A band that communicate concepts in my opinion is a dangerous band.
-
I'd rather have a cat that can groove the roof off with a pentatonic based solo, than a cat that cant really groove as well but KNOWS more scales or what have you. He also said that the first had some theory.
One doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the other. I know guys who can do both.
Wouldn't you agree that the later opens up more possibilities.
Believe it or not most black folks know theory... they may not know what a Gm7 is but if a soloist is singing they know what chord to play.
Not trying to blast, but don't you think that statement is a tad bit of a GENERALIZATION?
Improvisation/playing by ear is theory... It's your own interpretation of what you feel and hear.
Theory only becomes theory when study is applied to it. So in a broad sense, when you say interpretation it could possibly fit under theory.
However most of the time, that definition wouldn't fly.
-
Not trying to blast, but don't you think that statement is a tad bit of a GENERALIZATION?
Yes, i guess it is... thanks for pointing that out. Apologies to the offended ones!!
Theory only becomes theory when study is applied to it. So in a broad sense, when you say interpretation it could possibly fit under theory.
However most of the time, that definition wouldn't fly.
Once again you are correct. Apologies to the offended ones again!!!
-
to me, i believe theory isnt limited to whats commonly printed in books or listed on websites. once you can formulate a concept in an attempt to explain why something is what it is or does what it does, then thats theory. If someone says "hey bass player, i want this song to have a reggae feel" and you understand why (or even ask and get explained to you) what makes a reggae feel just that, then thats a piece of theory. Honestly, I cant understand why a person who claims ultimate knowledge of music theory cant groove to save his life. Understanding why a groove grooves is a fundamental part of theory, and that should be the first thing you try to learn how to apply before anything else. Apparently he has the priorities of his music theory out of order.
So i guess its one one extreme you got a guy that knows stuff but dont know how to apply it and on the other end you got a guy who applies stuff but doesnt know what he's applying. The ultimate goal is to be consistently in the middle as you grow; as you learn more stuff you learn how to apply it and be capable of doing so.
im just a person that cant just play stuff and not understand why im playing that and why it works. and for me thats expanding my theory. just find it a bit difficult to go the other way around. lol
The thing is floaded, music theory is only based on notes and their relationships. Ive said before, I have about 6 diff theory books, some from college, and none of them cover the elements Ive previously stated (try looking for "Funk shuffle" in one). Im surrounded by amazing musicians of different backgrounds everyday, and I felt like you, WHY cant they groove or hear this is supposed to be that, or etc. Thats why. Their education to application ratio is off. You know what? You can know theory and have never picked up an instrument. :) Ive learned Baroque music is categorized by seventh chords and terraced dynamics. That tells me nothing about being in tune with the ensemble.
Check this out. The other bass player in my band is a Berkeley grad. He explains stuff to me that makes my head hurt lol. But I can take two notes and groove him out the water (quote from him). you know who the cats in the band call to play outside? Exactly.
-
One doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the other. I know guys who can do both.
Wouldn't you agree that the later opens up more possibilities.
Youre absolutely right Torch, but in his scenario, they are both one sided in contrasting talents. I would not agree with the second statement because like I said, it takes a shorter time for the one person to learn theory than the other to learn skill, style, etc. To have both would be the ideal goal of course.
-
I think some people get theory confused with experience. I believe the more you practice and play the more experience you gain and therefore you start recognizing certain changes. I believe theory is good but it can on take you you so far. I believe experience can take you further. I know a gut that know theory like the English language but can't play not one instrument. Some people just have that musical talent. Some people can hear a chord and call out every note and not know a lick of theory. I think we put to much importance on theory and not enough on just playing from your heart. When I play I may go back on my theory a little but I let my expirence and heart lead me and I always seem to hit the right notes. Sometimes the pro people I play with do something and theory can't even explain what they did. Just like sports. I was a stand out football player (tore ACL). Some people just have talent and no technique but can make all the plays. Then some people have perfect tech but not much talent and cant make a play to save their life. But they have good knowledge about football and good tech. but just don't have the talent Those type of ppl turn out to make good coaches.
-
I teach math for a living. There are folks out there who know the math but can't explain it so that a student can understand it. So it may be with this. What good is knowing scales, modes, progressions, etc., if you can't apply it? Or, if you are in a teaching position, you can't teach someone how to apply it? I can read music, I know progressions, I can pick up most things by ear. I don't know modes, however, but I would like to. I would also like to learn to build walking bass lines so that I can improve as a jazz musician.
On a positive note, there are so many on this site who know theory and can show us how to apply it to our playing. I am thankful to LGM for those guys and ladies.
-
Theory is from the head!music is from the heart!i learned theory at a early age when i played in the school brass band,first cornet,then tuba,and of course the musical knowledge has stayed with me,BUT it's my belief that if you think too much about it when your playing it can hinder what your trying to do,i don't play in a regular band,my gigs are all deps,mainly reading,and i have to do what they expect from me,after all thet are paying me!!but i also play in a jazz fusion band and enjoy the freedom,some players have the uncanny ability to pick up things so fast,a typical example is Pino Palladino,he doesn't read a note of music,but has a head like a computer,SO,it's the person,and the way that person approaches his playing in any situation,there's my two pence worth on this thread. :)
-
Knowing music theory is like being book smart in school. You can have a 4.0 GPA but have absolutely no practical experience on how to apply it. You can know all your scales, modes, chords, changes, subs, etc. but not know how to play it.
It's the same with the Bible. Some people know their Bible backward and forward but don't know very well how to apply the teachings of Christ. Some know the Bible just a little and know how to apply the teachings very well. Some know both.
In the end, it matters whether or not your music is effective. Knowing your theory is definitely a plus in doing that. If you spend a lot of time learning your theory, you best spend just as much time knowing how to apply it.
-
DID KING DAVID KNOW THEORY..??? What about tha Anointing!!..I'll take tha Anointing any day ova theory....yoke breaker..fok being healed...theory can't do that.....playing from tha heart like many of the men and women of God said... thats what its all about... and tha greatest of these three is love... just thought I'll say that ?/? :)...
P.S. THANK GOD FOR THA BASS FOR DUMMIES BOOK ;)
-
I think that it's all about how one apply themselves with their time. To me, technically speaking, the theory guy SHOULD be in a better position at the start, even if he can't apply it at the moment.
I look at music theory like it's a big room. The more one learn theoretically, the bigger the room gets. Now that person might not know how to use all the tools in that big area but if he/she apply their time most effectively and wisely, there's vast expansion, room for growth. And one day everything in the room would be within their reach.
The guy who doesn't know theory will know it eventually thru trial and error. The book may point something out, like a nice progression style, to the theory guy. So he might already have an inclination to look for it right away, like right now. Whereas, the trial-and-error guy might run into it in about eight months from now.
Basically I see it like this:
1) I can point it out to you, save you all the headbanging headaches. And get you on track immediately, let you experiment with it later. (Theory)
2) I can just leave you alone and let you just happen upon things and figure it out by yourself. (Trial-and-error)
To me, both of these guys can find themselves at the same conclusion, one will just get there quicker.
-
Well we have to be careful how we discredit things. Trust despite how some of my responses may come across, I advise anyone in music to learn theory. Just dont make it the end all, priority #1. I truly wish I took the theory I had learned in college more seriously. Unfortunately I was caught up in that concept that alot of ear/natural skill players believed which was that theory somehow "taints" your gift or anointing. Part of that is because it sounds much better and gets more wows to be a hot musician and be like "I dont know how to read/theory/etc" than for you to say you know how to do all that (yall know how 'we' like to do). Being one of the older bassists here, Im glad to see alot more gospel bass players wanting to further their education technically. Theory will allow you to express yourself in more ways than just sitting and falling up on something. Im blessed with sharp ears, but that combined with theory has allowed me to do a gig not knowing the music or having any. I think that gospel bass players have an edge up on most, because it encompasses the most groove oriented of styles, unlike alot of other genres. Thats why a gospel player that can read and has theoretical knowledge is a dangerous person lol. A good read is Victor Wooten's book "The Music Lesson". Great book on overall musicianship. esp. bass.
-
I'm new to this group and this was the first message that came up. I hope you all don't mind if I throw in my 2 cents. This questions speaks to something more basic...is the educated better of than the uneducated. The answer is it depends...not on knowledge but on quality of life. The best example for me was when I bought a house in PA, I spoke with a landscaper to do my lawn. He said, "its funny, I barely graduated high school, but you're going to pay me half of your annual salary for about two weeks worth of work." He is less educated than I, but make far more money. The reverse of that is obviously the PhD who graduates from Harvard with a starting salary of around $100K...before he/she has proven any skills at all, but just because he/she is educated doors are open.
-
Well we have to be careful how we discredit things. Trust despite how some of my responses may come across, I advise anyone in music to learn theory. Just dont make it the end all, priority #1. I truly wish I took the theory I had learned in college more seriously. Unfortunately I was caught up in that concept that alot of ear/natural skill players believed which was that theory somehow "taints" your gift or anointing. Part of that is because it sounds much better and gets more wows to be a hot musician and be like "I dont know how to read/theory/etc" than for you to say you know how to do all that (yall know how 'we' like to do). Being one of the older bassists here, Im glad to see alot more gospel bass players wanting to further their education technically. Theory will allow you to express yourself in more ways than just sitting and falling up on something. Im blessed with sharp ears, but that combined with theory has allowed me to do a gig not knowing the music or having any. I think that gospel bass players have an edge up on most, because it encompasses the most groove oriented of styles, unlike alot of other genres. Thats why a gospel player that can read and has theoretical knowledge is a dangerous person lol. A good read is Victor Wooten's book "The Music Lesson". Great book on overall musicianship. esp. bass.
Hey. you got that right! I can go the other way, as well. The trial-and-error guy will eventually get there like johnny-come-lately, but when he show up his playing can and should be very hardcore and super-slick because of all that shedding and comparing notes to find out what notes were right vs wrong, instead of "because someone told me." He/She could say. "I know for a FACT that these notes don't work right here..."
Like I said, to me, they both should be at the same point later on down the street.
-
Yes, i guess it is... thanks for pointing that out. Apologies to the offended ones!!
Once again you are correct. Apologies to the offended ones again!!!
No worries, I took no offense.
-
I would not agree with the second statement because like I said, it takes a shorter time for the one person to learn theory than the other to learn skill, style, etc. To have both would be the ideal goal of course.
Which was the point I was trying to make. To sum up my point of view, Theory without Application is useless.
When I say the later opens up many more posibilities, I simply meant, that a person grooving over a pentatonic scale gets 5 notes, when I get a greater understanding more notes become available, for me to create with.
-
Well fingers that depends. There are many factors missing. For example, lets say you have two measures of changes: /Ab7 Db7/Bb7 Eb7/. The theory person can easily analyze this and break all the chords down, knowing all the possibilities. But the music is latin salsa. Now the untrained person might have figured just the roots of the chords and the fifths, but he knows the style. Nothing in theory tells you that the bass (and the changes) follows the clave, so the theorist, though way down the street, is still behind.
-
Also remember that THEORY is ONLY a tool, to assist musicians.
I am persuaded, like mentioned in one of our videos, we learn theory, to not have to think about it. Much like you learn a language, and it becomes second nature, so that you don't conciously think about your words most of the time.
The tone of these type posts generally move into to camps with not much wiggle room... Less filling. Taste great.
All who say that Musicians who know theory, and can't groove are right, that person are not complete musicians.
I also appreciate all the analogies given, but realize that there are still two sides to the coin. We see all the time atheletes who are extremely talented, but can't make it on the next level, because they can't get the mental aspect of the game. Pure talent only goes so far. But great analogy, "Twest45"
Dremy, no-one can truly say if David knew studied music or not... all we know is that he was skillful according to the scriptures, and that his reputation as a musician proceeded him. We do however find later in the scriptures another musician, who taught the singers/musicians in the temple. Cheneniah.
-
Well fingers that depends. There are many factors missing. For example, lets say you have two measures of changes: /Ab7 Db7/Bb7 Eb7/. The theory person can easily analyze this and break all the chords down, knowing all the possibilities. But the music is latin salsa. Now the untrained person might have figured just the roots of the chords and the fifths, but he knows the style. Nothing in theory tells you that the bass (and the changes) follows the clave, so the theorist, though way down the street, is still behind.
Don't leave out time signatures and standard notation. In the same scenario, a person who knows theory could possibly show up at a session without hearing a single note and have a great idea of how the song should go.
-
Don't leave out time signatures and standard notation. In the same scenario, a person who knows theory could possibly show up at a session without hearing a single note and have a great idea of how the song should go.
Well in the scenario, there is no notation, just changes. If he shows up and doesnt know the style and feel, you can hang it up. Even if you told him it was common time, that still doesnt tell you the emplied things that go along with salsa.
-
Well in the scenario, there is no notation, just changes. If he shows up and doesnt know the style and feel, you can hang it up. Even if you told him it was common time, that still doesnt tell you the emplied things that go along with salsa.
We still go to isolated scenarios to build our case. A person who doesn't know theory, and can groove at church, could possibly be in the same predicument if they showed up and were not familiar with the salsa style.
In my limited experience everyone that I know who knows theory, are extremely talented musicians, and can play any style. Can break it down, explain it, play in any situation with greater than average proficiency. And the guys who I know who can play and don't utilize theory don't even compare. I know this is my limited experience but it makes me lean much more towards learning theory.
-
Well fingers that depends. There are many factors missing. For example, lets say you have two measures of changes: /Ab7 Db7/Bb7 Eb7/. The theory person can easily analyze this and break all the chords down, knowing all the possibilities. But the music is latin salsa. Now the untrained person might have figured just the roots of the chords and the fifths, but he knows the style. Nothing in theory tells you that the bass (and the changes) follows the clave, so the theorist, though way down the street, is still behind.
That's true. One thing I didn't mention was that, in my mind, the two players that I'm comparing to one another aren't living in a bubble.
In my hypothetical world, they both are out there getting exposure. The 'theory' guy might need some shedding to pick up on that salsa thing. That trial-and-error guy might not know much about that particular progression but being around those other 'theory' guys might help him get it. I'm not being extreme on this, contrasting black to white. To me, extremity isn't always reality. That's why I have both players meeting up at the same point in the end - if they use their time wisely...
-
We still go to isolated scenarios to build our case. A person who doesn't know theory, and can groove at church, could possibly be in the same predicument if they showed up and were not familiar with the salsa style.
Well I put that because Ive been in that scenario more than once. ;D
That's true. One thing I didn't mention was that, in my mind, the two players that I'm comparing to one another aren't living in a bubble.
In my hypothetical world, they both are out there getting exposure. The 'theory' guy might need some shedding to pick up on that salsa thing. That trial-and-error guy might not know much about that particular progression but being around those other 'theory' guys might help him get it. I'm not being extreme on this, contrasting black to white. To me, extremity isn't always reality. That's why I have both players meeting up at the same point in the end - if they use their time wisely...
See this validates what I said originally in answering the original question. But even in what you just said, you could easily teach that second guy in 10 minutes what those 4 chords are. But Salsa? Good luck. :D
Check it. One of my best friends is a female piano player from the Czech Republic. I mean this chick sightreads Mozart and Beethoven for breakfast. Do you know how long it took me to teach her how to play funk style? FUNK! Almost half a yr LOL. Im talking Superstitious like 3 hrs a day almost.
I know we are getting of on a tangent, but the original question is which is the BETTER POSITION to be in? Meaning though you are lacking, which would you rather be lacking in. I would rather be lacking in the area that doesnt take as long to internalize. Theory is constant. It NEVER changes. A supertonic today will be a supertonic 50 yrs from now. Regardless of country, reggae, gospel, calypso, jazz a ii-V-I is the same. However depending on the style, the knowledge in how you play it and make it sound good greatly varies and depends on alot more factors.
-
Well I put that because Ive been in that scenario more than once. ;D
See this validates what I said originally in answering the original question. But even in what you just said, you could easily teach that second guy in 10 minutes what those 4 chords are. But Salsa? Good luck. :D
Check it. One of my best friends is a female piano player from the Czech Republic. I mean this chick sightreads Mozart and Beethoven for breakfast. Do you know how long it took me to teach her how to play funk style? FUNK! Almost half a yr LOL. Im talking Superstitious like 3 hrs a day almost.
I know we are getting of on a tangent, but the original question is which is the BETTER POSITION to be in? Meaning though you are lacking, which would you rather be lacking in. I would rather be lacking in the area that doesnt take as long to internalize. Theory is constant. It NEVER changes. A supertonic today will be a supertonic 50 yrs from now. Regardless of country, reggae, gospel, calypso, jazz a ii-V-I is the same. However depending on the style, the knowledge in how you play it and make it sound good greatly varies and depends on alot more factors.
I gotcha.
-
Well I put that because I've been in that scenario more than once. ;D
Ahem... me too. The scary part comes when we try and pull of a particular style at Church, and the drummer has one interpretation of how it should go, the keyboardist another, and me yet another... talk about butchering a song.
-
Well fingers that depends. There are many factors missing. For example, lets say you have two measures of changes: /Ab7 Db7/Bb7 Eb7/. The theory person can easily analyze this and break all the chords down, knowing all the possibilities. But the music is latin salsa. Now the untrained person might have figured just the roots of the chords and the fifths, but he knows the style. Nothing in theory tells you that the bass (and the changes) follows the clave, so the theorist, though way down the street, is still behind.
bassbygrace, this is what im trying to explain (to you, and many). You say that the bass follows the clave for "latin salsa". You just explained the concept of bass in latin salsa. That IS theory. Just because its NOT in some book in Barnes & Noble doesnt mean its not theory. This is what im saying. Theory goes beyond that. If i know what makes up latin salsa (theory), i'll be able to play those changes. If he knows the style, (not "ive played so many latin salsa songs cause i got the records at home and i'll just play like one of those songs" or "i know how to play this cause it sounds like ________, which is a song i know") then he knows the concept of latin salsa, and thus he knows theory (whether he recognizes that or not doesnt matter)
as for me, im a "theory guy" by nature. i like to know how things work, why they work, etc. That does NOT take away my ability to groove, experiment, shed or whatever. And that does not mean that a "theory guy" doesnt play with his heart, and that ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean that the "theory guy" cant be annointed. Theory does not have to stifle creativity. Some people just let it do so.
I like the analogy that Fingers gave thats likens to a tool shed. I may take the time to learn about every tool and how it works and what its for. So when i need to screw in a screw my idea may be to use a screwdriver which is the obvious tool, but because i know how it works i can also fashion something else, whose use was never intended for that, to work in a similar way. (how many of us have screwed or unscrewed something with a butter knife?) Thats how theory works for me, and i dont have to pick up the hammer to see that it doesnt work, then get a saw and see that that doesnt work, etc.
-
That IS theory. Just because its NOT in some book in Barnes & Noble doesnt mean its not theory. This is what im saying. Theory goes beyond that.
I agree. With the notes comes the timing of the type of music you're playing too.
-
To add to what I stated before and to answer the original question another way, this is really a situational thing. But like floaded27 stated, theory goes beyond books. Victor wooten stated that music is a language. We all here know the English language, but we all develop little slangs that deviate from the English Language. Music is the same way. There's written theory and spoken theory.
-
From Wikipedia:
In a more general sense, music theory also often distills and analyzes the elements of music ? rhythm, harmony (harmonic function), melody, structure, form, and texture.
Broadly, theory may include any statement, belief, or conception of or about music
-
Ahem... me too. The scary part comes when we try and pull of a particular style at Church, and the drummer has one interpretation of how it should go, the keyboardist another, and me yet another... talk about butchering a song.
Bruh you have no idea. I was on a jazz gig once and the drummer couldnt make it. A friend called a friend that called a friend. They told us this cat was like DCI drum capt in the past, chops for days, etc. He shows up, and listening to him warm up, Im like WORD! How bout....he couldnt play jazz. :( Im talkin so straight I thought he had starch on his sticks. Worst 3 hours ever with great musicians.
Check it out floaded. Watch this.
as for me, im a "theory guy" by nature. i like to know how things work, why they work, etc. That does NOT take away my ability to groove, experiment, shed or whatever
So you agree that theory and groove have nothing to do with each other. :) Thats what IM trying to explain to you (and others) and you just said it. Because on the same token, it does not ADD to your ability to groove. I love it. :) You can explain theory. You cant explain groove. Thats why in that example just because he knows what makes up latin salsa and recognizes the changes, doesnt mean he knows how to PLAY them. Just like in my earlier example, he knew jazz consisted of a dotted eighth sixteenth note structure, 4/4 time, he knew he was supposed to use the ride cymbal and all that. But his feel, groove and lock were nonexistent. No swing what so ever. Now would you say he was successful in playing jazz?
I wish I could bring yall to work with me LOLOL. I might just try to set up my camera somewhere around here so I can get it on tape.
-
BBG i totally understand you. But just as theory doesnt ADD to your ability to groove, neither does having a good ear or good technique or great chops. They all HELP you in that area but none automatically add to your ability to do so. And none automatically diminish that either. You have to know how to use each one to help you, theory included.
one example. you ever had a basketball coach that knew everything about the sport and how to play, good technique, strategies, everything but couldnt play himself? Thats the guy thats all theory. Now do you think if he was able to play (maybe he could practice or something) that all this knowledge and understanding now becomes useless? Apparently it doesnt, because he's using it to help the people he's coaching become better players. So the knowledge does make you a better player overall IF, AND ONLY IF, you know how to apply it and do so. Learning how to position yourself on defense may not make you a better dribbler (a better defender, yes), squaring your shoulders on a free throw may not make you a better rebounder (a better free throw shooter, yes) and ect. Each piece of knowledge helps specific areas but the knowledge itself (theory) should make you a better player OVERALL if you know how to apply it and do so.
The question is why are people later on scrambling to understand the music (which is the basis of theory - UNDERSTANDING)? Because talent only takes you but so far. You cant refine yourself without understanding what, why, and how you need to refine.
But as i stated in my original post, i believe it depends on what you aim to do. Havin groove for days may be suitable if all you wanna do is be a gig musician. But if you want to create your own music, be a music director, etc groovin alone isnt gonna get you there. You need some theory under your belt, whether its "book theory" or "applied theory" its theory nonetheless.
For me, i get tired of only just groovin to other people stuff. Because, no knocks to whoever is, im not just a bass player, Im a minister of God through music. We all here at LGM should be, actually. Just like being able to live right isnt gonna cut it all the time. You need to know your Word. So i want to be able to minister to the people's needs through music, not wait for the next gospel album to come out in the stores to do it for me so i can just groove to it. So in order to do that, i need to immerse myself in not only ability, but understanding. and just realizing that and saying that, i realize this question was a moot point, because for me i know where i need to be so it doesnt even matter.
-
floaded...floaded...floaded. Im going to send you a nasty PM. :D Your post is just a mirror of what Ive been saying the last two pages bruh. Ive been saying they are different elements all along. Some how ppl get the notion that once you learn theory, youre the bomb. But as stated, if you dont have the other elements, that means absolutely nothing. However,
But as i stated in my original post, i believe it depends on what you aim to do. Havin groove for days may be suitable if all you wanna do is be a gig musician. But if you want to create your own music, be a music director, etc groovin alone isnt gonna get you there. You need some theory under your belt, whether its "book theory" or "applied theory" its theory nonetheless.
Well floaded I will say its hard to debate your point because of the different takes on what "Some" theory is. Some ppl think knowing where a Bb is on your bass is theory. Some ppl think unless you know modes and scales degrees, you dont. Did you know that George Benson cant read notes and for the longest time couldnt read changes? GEORGE BENSON! He just some of the sickest ears in the business. Dont believe me go watch Marcus Miller's clinic on BP TV. Anyway, youre kind of isolating it into a groove vs theory thing now. Dont forget your first paragraph about other things. I will say this. Theory needs music to exist. Music doesnt need theory to exist.
Im not just trying to argue to argue, or really play devil's advocate so to speak. As stated Im a true advocate of theory. The issue is ppl are forgetting the original reason for this thread. Its not to debate what is theory, or theory in comparison, it is which position would you rather be in.
I would rather be lacking in the area that doesnt take as long to internalize. Theory is constant. It NEVER changes. A supertonic today will be a supertonic 50 yrs from now. Regardless of country, reggae, gospel, calypso, jazz a ii-V-I is the same. However depending on the style, the knowledge in how you play it and make it sound good greatly varies and depends on alot more factors.
Anyone that disagrees with this, I would like to see your argument.
-
Anyone that disagrees with this, I would like to see your argument.
I'm rubber and you are glue, whatever you say... bounces off me and sticks to you.... :P
...And that my friend is the most powerful argument in the Universe. LOL!
-
So which is the better position to be in? One who has better skill on the bass (including technique, style, fills, chords, etc) but limited theory knowledge, or one who has a more extensive musical knowledge but not as skilled?
Just to revisit the question at hand...I personallly would like to be the person with more extensive musical knowlege. I figure as long as I know where the song is going and how to get there, I can effectively hold down a song.
Of course it would depend on the situation and either person could fly or flop depending on what setting they are placed in. Thats just what I think though.
-
I'm rubber and you are glue, whatever you say... bounces off me and sticks to you.... :P
...And that my friend is the most powerful argument in the Universe. LOL!
Well that depends on what vocabulary is being utili...LOLOL! j/k :D I actually had to go back and read the question again, and now I see that its already lopsided. I was thinking they were equal on contrasting sides of the tracks, but the first person is more specific, and the second is vague.
This has prompted me to start a survey too. Currently Im at the Military School of Music at a staff sgt course so I got plenty of guinea pigs lol. So far Ive asked about 6 ppl and its tied right now at 3-3. I will record some of their comments and post them. Ive also made the question a little more equal too.
-
Wow this is a hot one. Hey BassbyGrace, Are you at Little Creek, VA? One of my sax student graduated from there two years ago. It is about utilzing the tools you have and knowing where to use them. If you don't have the tools, you do limit yourself. Or even worst, having the tools and not knowing what to do with them. Theory is nothing without Practicum. what is the use in knowing a diminshed scale and not knowing where to play it or having a song in you head and not knowing how to put it paper. I personally spent years studying theory because I never understood what I was doing. I could always solo over changes because I listened to soloist. But when I started playing bass everything clicked. All this to say you should arm yourself so you hold the groove in a spiritual and intelligent manner.
-
Yeah man thats where Im posted up for the moment. Beach is nice though but I miss my little one.
-
LOL :) I am grad from Little Creek in 1986. I did 2 more yrs after that and went home to Chicago and started on my masters in music. They need more schools like that one where you get alot of book and practical experience. Out here in L.A. they have a few. Stay blessed and enjoy the beach.