LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Gospel Drummers => Topic started by: kunteg on December 05, 2008, 12:56:22 PM
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can any intermediate are advance drum player help me out with fills and licks for me to study and practice
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Welcome to LGM!
I'd suggest learning all of the rudiments (if you havent already) and start applying them to the drumset. Check out Todd Sucherman's Methods and Mechanics DVD. He goes through several rudiments and shows how he uses them on the kit.
Hers a list of the 40 essential rudiments with audio and video.
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html)
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kunteg,
honestly until you start growing as a drummer, your fills and licks will sound awful if we were to give you one now. Alot of drummers have the order backwards. They want to do the fancy stuff now, and lay the groundwork later. Thats like putting up a house with no foundation. The house will just be sloppy and it'll eventually fall apart.
Growing up, all I wanted to do was licks. And I would learn them and I'd do it real good on that Sunday. But the very next Sunday I would do it, and I would throw the whole choir off. Thats because even though I knew the lick like the back of my hand, I had no idea how or when to use it. But if you lay the ground work by doing all the other work, the licks will start coming naturally.
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kunteg,
honestly until you start growing as a drummer, your fills and licks will sound awful if we were to give you one now. Alot of drummers have the order backwards. They want to do the fancy stuff now, and lay the groundwork later. Thats like putting up a house with no foundation. The house will just be sloppy and it'll eventually fall apart.
Growing up, all I wanted to do was licks. And I would learn them and I'd do it real good on that Sunday. But the very next Sunday I would do it, and I would throw the whole choir off. Thats because even though I knew the lick like the back of my hand, I had no idea how or when to use it. But if you lay the ground work by doing all the other work, the licks will start coming naturally.
Excellent advice dude!! I concur myself on this one. I had to learn the same thing, and yes it does come with growing as a drummer. Good point fam!!
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[url]http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html[/url] ([url]http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html[/url])
Live, breathe and sleep learning your fundamentals. They are your tools to effectively construct a "sentence" and convey coherent ideas in your playing. There is nothing worse than listening to someone speak while using words in the wrong context, whether it be in the form of a noun or a verb. The same applies to all aspects of playing.
Go ahead, demonstrate aberrant behavior from the drummers who did not grasp the concept of having a solid foundation. Rudiment - look up the word and you'll understand why it's important to know them.
::thumbsup::
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That just comes from hearing more and more drummers in churches and on youtube playing with nothing but fills. You wonder why dudes who went to school for music can play so well? Its because they have the best foundation. They built thier playing from the bottom up.
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That just comes from hearing more and more drummers in churches and on youtube playing with nothing but fills. You wonder why dudes who went to school for music can play so well? Its because they have the best foundation. They built thier playing from the bottom up.
Ay, a lot of the fundamentally sound that I know didn't go to school for music - they just understood the principles of mastering the rudiments and the like. ;D
That understanding isn't reserved for the folk who went to school for music only... ::thumbsup::
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can any intermediate are advance drum player help me out with fills and licks for me to study and practice
You first need to master TIMING and stick control starting with the Single Stroke Roll at super slow tempos and Paradiddle at super slow tempos. When you can play these at least 20-50 times straight without mistake on the snare while you play a basic kick pattern and keep 1, 2, 3, 4 with your hi-hat foot then you can move up to the next tempo. Move in 10 BPM incriments starting at 45 BPM on the metronome. The exercise should groove.
If you don't have a metronome.. BUY ONE... Boss Dr. Beat DB-60 - $69.99
Invest in a good instruction book:
- The Drum Set Musician by Rod Morganstein (Berklee instructor)- $21.00
- Bass Drum Control by Colin Bailey - $17.95
- Drumset Control by Ron Spagnardi- $12.95
- and the DVD: Bass Drum and Hi-Hat Technique by Michael Packer - $19.95
Your level of growth priceless.
You may think these suggestions don't address your question but they do. Your question let's us know that there are most likely some weaknesses in your understanding of rhythm placement, coordination and listening/ear training (being able to breakdown patterns by ear). All things that these suggestions will fix IF You APLLY THEM PROPERLY AND DILIGENTLY.
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Ay, a lot of the fundamentally sound that I know didn't go to school for music - they just understood the principles of mastering the rudiments and the like. ;D
That understanding isn't reserved for the folk who went to school for music only... ::thumbsup::
No I'm not saying you can't grasp the concept if you didn't go to school. I didn't even go to school and I have grasped it. I'm just saying when you look at those guys who have been trained from childhood, they have a really strong foundation on how drumming works as a whole. I know guys who don't even have an ear for music who can really play because they have that strong foundation, while people like me who didn't go to school for it, kind of learned the principals by ourselves over the course of time.
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can any intermediate are advance drum player help me out with fills and licks for me to study and practice
A great and ever growing resource is Vic Firth's web site:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/technique/wessels.html (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/technique/wessels.html)
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html)
http://vicfirth.com/education/drumset/bellotti.html (http://vicfirth.com/education/drumset/bellotti.html)
http://vicfirth.com/education/hybrid_rudiments.html (http://vicfirth.com/education/hybrid_rudiments.html)
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html)
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/ferguson.html (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/ferguson.html)
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/hartigan.html (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/hartigan.html)
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/GrooveEssentials.html (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/GrooveEssentials.html)
Get your FOUNDATION right FIRST
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No I'm not saying you can't grasp the concept if you didn't go to school. I didn't even go to school and I have grasped it. I'm just saying when you look at those guys who have been trained from childhood, they have a really strong foundation on how drumming works as a whole. I know guys who don't even have an ear for music who can really play because they have that strong foundation, while people like me who didn't go to school for it, kind of learned the principals by ourselves over the course of time.
You are correct in saying that you did not mention that if you cannot grasp the concept if you did not go to school; however, you did state this:
You wonder why dudes who went to school for music can play so well? Its because they have the best foundation.
...which led me to post the following reply:
You just made an exclusionary comment, and I chose to make it inclusive by stating that not everyone who can play so well
went to school. Everything else mentioned was superfluous.
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Great advice guys! I've been seeking to go to higher ground only to find myself going back to the basic's and listening to the masters do what they do, and how it serves the music. Zorro said in his R and B Commandments instrutional video that "All we do anyway, is try to recreat what the masters did before us..." When we can learn those clean groves in the context of the song, the rest will follow. But like you guys said, Solid foundation first!!
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R L R F F
;D
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You first need to master TIMING and stick control starting with the Single Stroke Roll at super slow tempos and Paradiddle at super slow tempos. When you can play these at least 20-50 times straight without mistake on the snare while you play a basic kick pattern and keep 1, 2, 3, 4 with your hi-hat foot then you can move up to the next tempo. Move in 10 BPM incriments starting at 45 BPM on the metronome. The exercise should groove.
If you don't have a metronome.. BUY ONE... Boss Dr. Beat DB-60 - $69.99
Invest in a good instruction book:
- The Drum Set Musician by Rod Morganstein (Berklee instructor)- $21.00
- Bass Drum Control by Colin Bailey - $17.95
- Drumset Control by Ron Spagnardi- $12.95
- and the DVD: Bass Drum and Hi-Hat Technique by Michael Packer - $19.95
Your level of growth priceless.
You may think these suggestions don't address your question but they do. Your question let's us know that there are most likely some weaknesses in your understanding of rhythm placement, coordination and listening/ear training (being able to breakdown patterns by ear). All things that these suggestions will fix IF You APLLY THEM PROPERLY AND DILIGENTLY.
Someone's going to see a miscellaneous "MC" deduction on their next paaycheck :D
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Excellent advise dudes, I want to also throw in the forgotten method of playing with records,cd's,albums. When I was being instructed in my early years I would always go home and pratice what my teacher gave me and then find The Winans, Milton Brunson, Ron Winans, Commissioned and many more to play with and lock down to and see if what I learned could apply to the type of music I had to play on Sunday.
It may not seem like a big thing, but it teaches you to fit and lock up with what has already been established and if you step too far out it will sound horrible. I actually played with the "Home at Last" track by Steely Dan with the Bernard Purdie yesterday and found myself sweating to keep up with mantaining the Purdie Shuffle feel and groove that he brought to the song. Not an easy task at all!
All the guys have given sound advice though so I just wanted to add that on top.
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Excellent advise dudes, I want to also throw in the forgotten method of playing with records,cd's,albums. When I was being instructed in my early years I would always go home and pratice what my teacher gave me and then find The Winans, Milton Brunson, Ron Winans, Commissioned and many more to play with and lock down to and see if what I learned could apply to the type of music I had to play on Sunday.
It may not seem like a big thing, but it teaches you to fit and lock up with what has already been established and if you step too far out it will sound horrible. I actually played with the "Home at Last" track by Steely Dan with the Bernard Purdie yesterday and found myself sweating to keep up with mantaining the Purdie Shuffle feel and groove that he brought to the song. Not an easy task at all!
All the guys have given sound advice though so I just wanted to add that on top.
Good advise lockslie1... I was figuring that to be "phase 2". Excellent advise though for real.
My take was/is...
These days we seem to here the latest hot record and only want to play like that "dude" with getting into the mind of the dude. Guys like Calvin and Jeremy create parts from their learned vocabulary so I personally put focus on building the vocabulary in order to get into the mind set and actually understand somewhat what is being played on the record. When you can hear the Double Drag or Double Ratamacue or Flam Accent then you understand the imposed triplet, 6/8, or 6 over feel and know beetr how to snag and use this phrase or lick in proper context.
I was just working on the Double Ratamcue this morning and was struggling. i had to break it down to the base of:
(1) it is a triplet inversion so I had to lock into the 6/8 R R L L L R
(2) it is birthed/derived from the Double Drag where we must pay due diligence to the diddled grace note BEFORE the primary stroke while not disturbing the balance (time and space of the primary strokes)
(3) master the sticking without the accented tap on 3 and 6 (Which is reverse of how we generally practice our triplet based licks
Without understanding of these things I would not be able to take this rudiment and impose it in a 4 based grouping scenario unobtrusively and support it with other "swing" type rudiments or licks. As a matter of fact it is going to be a minute before this finds it's way into my bag of tricks in 4 or 6 (keeping it real....).
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...excellent!! Now "this" is LGM. 8)
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Good advise lockslie1... I was figuring that to be "phase 2". Excellent advise though for real.
My take was/is...
These days we seem to here the latest hot record and only want to play like that "dude" with getting into the mind of the dude. Guys like Calvin and Jeremy create parts from their learned vocabulary so I personally put focus on building the vocabulary in order to get into the mind set and actually understand somewhat what is being played on the record. When you can hear the Double Drag or Double Ratamacue or Flam Accent then you understand the imposed triplet, 6/8, or 6 over feel and know beetr how to snag and use this phrase or lick in proper context.
I was just working on the Double Ratamcue this morning and was struggling. i had to break it down to the base of:
(1) it is a triplet inversion so I had to lock into the 6/8 R R L L L R
(2) it is birthed/derived from the Double Drag where we must pay due diligence to the diddled grace note BEFORE the primary stroke while not disturbing the balance (time and space of the primary strokes)
(3) master the sticking without the accented tap on 3 and 6 (Which is reverse of how we generally practice our triplet based licks
Without understanding of these things I would not be able to take this rudiment and impose it in a 4 based grouping scenario unobtrusively and support it with other "swing" type rudiments or licks. As a matter of fact it is going to be a minute before this finds it's way into my bag of tricks in 4 or 6 (keeping it real....).
And I thought I paid attention to detail! Makes me realize how much more focused I got to be!
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A few years back, I went to a clinic by J.D. Blair. J.D. gave a young man the opportunity to play on his kit. He said to the young man, "give me a 5-minute groove." The young man proceeded to play a beat, and then started adding all of these fills and even changed the basic groove up every so often. J.D. just walked around the stage patiently not saying a thing or even reacting. He let the guy go for a full 5 minutes.
Once he was done, the drummer kinda sat there like "yeah, I just put it down" and even a few in the crowd showed approval for what he just done. J.D. simply said, "you can play, but I asked you to give me a groove. Not bragging, but I already knew what was up. He didn't outright dog the guy, but he basically went on to touch on the subject that seems to be a constant sore spot for a lot of the younger players.
I suggest as always that you study the art of groove from Clyde Stubblefield and John "Jabo" Starks. They may not "blaze" all of the time, but there is a reason that they are two of the most sampled drummers of all time.
It doesn't matter how cold your licks and fills are if you can't come back in on the one.
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R L R F F
;D
LOL!!! ;D
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A few years back, I went to a clinic by J.D. Blair. J.D. gave a young man the opportunity to play on his kit. He said to the young man, "give me a 5-minute groove." The young man proceeded to play a beat, and then started adding all of these fills and even changed the basic groove up every so often. J.D. just walked around the stage patiently not saying a thing or even reacting. He let the guy go for a full 5 minutes.
Once he was done, the drummer kinda sat there like "yeah, I just put it down" and even a few in the crowd showed approval for what he just done. J.D. simply said, "you can play, but I asked you to give me a groove. Not bragging, but I already knew what was up. He didn't outright dog the guy, but he basically went on to touch on the subject that seems to be a constant sore spot for a lot of the younger players.
I suggest as always that you study the art of groove from Clyde Stubblefield and John "Jabo" Starks. They may not "blaze" all of the time, but there is a reason that they are two of the most sampled drummers of all time.
It doesn't matter how cold your licks and fills are if you can't come back in on the one.
I met J.D and Derico at one of Vic's concerts. Those dudes are amazing and excellent people to learn from. True musicians....Masters of Dynamics and sensitivity to the music they play.
...excellent!! Now "this" is LGM. 8)
Like a breath of fresh air !!
R L R F F
;D
:D :D :D
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A few years back, I went to a clinic by J.D. Blair. J.D. gave a young man the opportunity to play on his kit. He said to the young man, "give me a 5-minute groove." The young man proceeded to play a beat, and then started adding all of these fills and even changed the basic groove up every so often. J.D. just walked around the stage patiently not saying a thing or even reacting. He let the guy go for a full 5 minutes.
Once he was done, the drummer kinda sat there like "yeah, I just put it down" and even a few in the crowd showed approval for what he just done. J.D. simply said, "you can play, but I asked you to give me a groove. Not bragging, but I already knew what was up. He didn't outright dog the guy, but he basically went on to touch on the subject that seems to be a constant sore spot for a lot of the younger players.
I suggest as always that you study the art of groove from Clyde Stubblefield and John "Jabo" Starks. They may not "blaze" all of the time, but there is a reason that they are two of the most sampled drummers of all time.
It doesn't matter how cold your licks and fills are if you can't come back in on the one.
So true.
I just want to support your statement by pointing out that the book The Drum Set Musician and the DVD - Bass Drum and Hi-Hat Technique both focus on the ability to play groove. The are by Berklee and L.A. Music Academy instructors respectively.
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appreciate you all on the advice
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appreciate you all on the advice
You are welcome and WELCOME TO LGM!
One more VERY IMPORTANT piece of advice...
"If you can say it you can play it." This is a golden rule in music and life. It is speaking things into existence.
If you can count aloud a riff/pattern/phrase/melody in proper time then you can play it in time. So sing the idea out with all the tonalities that are in your head then apply it slowly to the drum kit finding and matching the tonalities. Make sure your tones match the melody tones of the song you are applying the fill at the time.
If you stutter or loose you breath saying/singing it then you will also loose your breath/balance playing it. This is a fact I have proven through my past students. Don't cause the music to "hyper-ventilate" place each nnote/hit of the pattern in it's own proper space. if you crowd or rush of even slow down inconsistantly or out-of-context then it will cause the song to fall apart because the drums are the heartbeat.