LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: dhagler on February 16, 2009, 09:56:35 AM
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You have rehearsed a song in a certain key. You've played that song the two previous Sundays in the key you rehearsed. But today your keyboardist strikes out in a different key. Do you:
a. Pick up the new key and play along, saying nothing.
b. Pick up the new key and play along, telling her after service.
c. Tell her during the song if possible.
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depends. If its a good key for me, then I'd probaly say nothing. If its a hymn or other popular song, then I'd say nothing.
But if its a very complicated choir song, then I would expect that it be done the way we practiced it, and I'd let him/her know that I dont appreciate that.
Some songs I can do in every key without much practice, but If I memorize a song, then I'm gonna struggle playing it in another key without warning, or it will be watered down.
Was your keyboard player using transpose? maybe he didnt know he was doing it in the wrong key.
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Personally I'd say nothing. For me, playing in different keys on the bass is no big deal at all, especially if you're familiar with the actual finger pattern of changes and licks.
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i've done all of them at different times. for the most part when they play it in a different key, the muscle mememory with your hands are playing the same pattern just in a different place (in most cases). i try to take it as a learning experience adjusting to a new situation.
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I would probably mention that he/she played it in a different key and ask if I should learn it in that key (or any other keys)for the future. I had a MOM who used to play songs in two different keys just in case some of the choir members had colds and couldn't reach some of the higher notes.
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a good key? i thought the bass was the easiest instrument to change keys on. especially if you learn by way of pattern and progression, instead of specific notes. (maybe you should give that approach a try)
i pick up the new key and play along, but i definitely say something. because its annoying when im ready to play and im soundin off and i gotta pick up the key and if its a song with a lot of movement it takes a while. The thing is that if you gonna change the key (and thats even if you have the authority to do so) you need to inform the rest of the people you are working with, thats only fair and being a team player and working as a unit. I think they do that because whatever happens its always gonna be "the choir was off" or "the other musicians were off". Its NEVER "the organist was playing the wrong thing." And when ur never the blame, more than likely you're gonna keep doing whatever you wanna do.
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Ok given we are talking about Sunday mornings, I usually know the pianists I'm playing with well enough to know if they really meant to change the key by a half step or so. I usually yell out "check your transpose..." and they usually respond "thanks...and laugh".
So my answer is C. Final answer...
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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Did I mention I'm going to start a campaign to pour crazy glue in the transpose buttons of every piano/keyboard on Earth! It makes for such bad habits...
Crazy Glue the Transpose...YES WE CAN!!!
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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Like some of the guys mention. The pattern and progresson dosen't change. jut the key. If you have the pattern and fingering in place It shouldn't matter.
Sometimes Check MOST of the time we as Bass Player have to be more Flexable then others. I look at it as God testing my faith.
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Say "NOTHING." You're on bass. its easier than any of the other instruments to play progressions on the bass. I'm the main keyboard player for my church, and we have different praise and worship leaders who lead services. Well, they all don't sing every song in the same key as the original. Its human nature, everyone's vocal range isn't the same. So, this will only make you better, as I can tell a difference in my playing since I've been with this new ministry. I've played in all keys since being there. My previous church was a max of 3 keys. I was hindered.
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a good key? i thought the bass was the easiest instrument to change keys on. especially if you learn by way of pattern and progression, instead of specific notes. (maybe you should give that approach a try)
Sorry, I play organ. ( i have a bass, but I havent learned yet.)
Did I mention I'm going to start a campaign to pour crazy glue in the transpose buttons of every piano/keyboard on Earth! It makes for such bad habits...
Crazy Glue the Transpose...YES WE CAN!!!
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
I agree. we once went to a guest church, and the guy before us used transpose, and it messed up our whole performance. I'm glad I've never gotten into that habit
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I'm gonna struggle playing it in another key without warning, or it will be watered down.
Was your keyboard player using transpose? maybe he didnt know he was doing it in the wrong key.
No, she wasn't using the transpose key (although that has happened too). She just forgot what key we do the song in (she does this frequently, I'm afraid).
Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I feel like I owe her an apology because I should have just played it in other key if possible--which I can do most of the time--then mentioned it afterwards.
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All have made valid points either way. That does happen on ocassion. Actually last week it happend but that was because the lead singer was not comfortable singing that high and we had to drop it down. Also if there is a song with modulation we have sometimes backed it down to give room to move so by the 3rd or 4th modulation the choir isn't standing on their tippy toes...
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Did I mention I'm going to start a campaign to pour crazy glue in the transpose buttons of every piano/keyboard on Earth! It makes for such bad habits...
actually, i saw a youtube video where the guy showed an excellent way of using transpose to help you become a better player. say if a song is in Eb you can use transpose to play the song in a different key that you have trouble with, say E. So you can play along with the song (instrumental or whatever) because the keyboard is playing in Eb, but since the fingering is as if you're playing in E you get used to playing in E (which is a difficult key for you because otherwise you wouldnt go to that key). im sure u get what im saying.
No, she wasn't using the transpose key (although that has happened too). She just forgot what key we do the song in (she does this frequently, I'm afraid).
Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I feel like I owe her an apology because I should have just played it in other key if possible--which I can do most of the time--then mentioned it afterwards.
i think you're response should depend on WHY the key is being changed. If she forgets the key then maybe you guys should write the key down you do a song in, because as someone mentioned you have to be in a key thats comfortable for the singers, and that may not necessarily be the same key as the recording. other reasons such as modulation restraints and ranges shouldve been worked out in rehearsal and the moment of isnt the best time to decide that unless there are really pressing circumstances, but even then it should be communicated if possible.
if the key changes because the person on keys just "feels like playing in Eb today" then they need to be called on that. i had to call the organist out on that in a recent rehearsal. you cant just modulate when you feel like it and then when ur supposed to dont because u dont feel like it. thats someone operating out of self, and theres no unity.
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I'm letting it be known as soon as we start the song that we're in the wrong key. I have no problem stopping where we're at and starting over in the right key...lol
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lol I go through this a lot. kinda. The church I play for only has a 3 piece. Me on bass a good friend of mine on guitar and a drummers. often the guitar player will mistakenly leave his capo or place the capo in the wrong spot. now i have to find the key he is mistakenly playing in and transpose the song in my head.
This is what I do.... call it a challenge then joke about it when it's all over.
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i think you're response should depend on WHY the key is being changed. If she forgets the key then maybe you guys should write the key down you do a song in
That's just it, floaded. We DO write the keys down! She just has "senior" moments, more frequently than I would like but I love her anyway. :)
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actually, i saw a youtube video where the guy showed an excellent way of using transpose to help you become a better player. say if a song is in Eb you can use transpose to play the song in a different key that you have trouble with, say E. So you can play along with the song (instrumental or whatever) because the keyboard is playing in Eb, but since the fingering is as if you're playing in E you get used to playing in E (which is a difficult key for you because otherwise you wouldnt go to that key). im sure u get what im saying.
To me thats just retarded, for lack of a better term. I know who you are talking about, and I even support him by buying his products, but that makes absolutely no sense. Someone above mentioned muscle memory. But on a keyboard its different. if one uses that method, they will not develop relative pitch on the keyboard, because the notes will be in different places at different times. I dont know how anybody with a good ear can play like that.
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I disabled the transpose circuit without anyone knowing Si se puede! Yes we can!
Did I mention I'm going to start a campaign to pour crazy glue in the transpose buttons of every piano/keyboard on Earth! It makes for such bad habits...
Crazy Glue the Transpose...YES WE CAN!!!
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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I disabled the transpose circuit without anyone knowing Si se puede! Yes we can!
Hilarious!!! I bet folk be banging the heck out that button like "what???"
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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To me thats just retarded, for lack of a better term. I know who you are talking about, and I even support him by buying his products, but that makes absolutely no sense. Someone above mentioned muscle memory. But on a keyboard its different. if one uses that method, they will not develop relative pitch on the keyboard, because the notes will be in different places at different times. I dont know how anybody with a good ear can play like that.
thats strange because u dont (or at least i dont) develop relative pitch like that. relative pitch isnt about where the note falls on the instrument, but where it is in the scale relative to another note. when i hear something and i discern the pattern based on relative pitch, i dont envision my bass nor a keyboard. i hear where the note (chord) is in respect to the others. absolute pitch maybe, but relative pitch never. because the 5th (relative) is always the same distance from the root in respect to the scale, regardless of what key you're in. but i guess you may have a different method. what he said makes perfect sense to me in my approach to music on both keyboard and bass.
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Did I mention I'm going to start a campaign to pour crazy glue in the transpose buttons of every piano/keyboard on Earth! It makes for such bad habits...
Crazy Glue the Transpose...YES WE CAN!!!
Browntree
Quote from: Godsbassman62 on Today at 02:33:48 PM
I disabled the transpose circuit without anyone knowing Si se puede! Yes we can!
Would someone put out a YouTube video with instructions on disabling that button...
LOL
;D
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Would someone put out a YouTube video with instructions on disabling that button...
LOL
;D
Here's a quick tutuorial...
1) Identify the transpose button
2) Obtain 2 ounces of Coca-cola
3) apply aprox. 1 ounce of coca-cola to the transpose button. You'll know when you've added enough...trust me.
4)Wait 1 hour and treat as needed. The gluing effect of the sugar will remedy anything the acidic fluid does not corrode.
5)Smile at it
Please note: You may experience minor complications in use of your device such as total confusion, electric shock, loss of power, and a decrease in self-worth realizing extreme stupidity.
Boom! We meltin transpose buttons baby!
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
-
Here's a quick tutuorial...
1) Identify the transpose button
2) Obtain 2 ounces of Coca-cola
3) apply aprox. 1 ounce of coca-cola to the transpose button. You'll know when you've added enough...trust me.
4)Wait 1 hour and treat as needed. The gluing effect of the sugar will remedy anything the acidic fluid does not corrode.
5)Smile at it
Please note: You may experience minor complications in use of your device such as total confusion, electric shock, loss of power, and a decrease in self-worth realizing extreme stupidity.
i would add to that disclaimer: a serious beatdown if that keyboard isnt yours and it cost over $500. over $1000 expect serious bruising and swelling in kicked and stomped areas. lol.
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ok guys, NOT COOL. :D
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I agree with bassthumpa. Playing in a different keys is cool with me too; just let me know what key we're playing in. But it does P me off when we rehearse certain songs, then get to church and we do NONE of the songs we rehearsed. So that means rehearsal and my practice at home was all in vain! I HATE that with a passion...
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A quick update. I called her and apologized for not just picking up the new key and mentioning it afterwards. She said it was not a problem because we caught it and corrected it before the choir started singing, and she was not angry that I brought it to her attention.
God is working on me. She and I haven't always gotten along and I think He is helping me to work with her and helping her to work with me. He deserves all the glory and the praise! I am thankful He is helping me to develop a spirit of cooperation. :)
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I agree with bassthumpa. Playing in a different keys is cool with me too; just let me know what key we're playing in. But it does P me off when we rehearse certain songs, then get to church and we do NONE of the songs we rehearsed. So that means rehearsal and my practice at home was all in vain! I HATE that with a passion...
Technically, its not all in vain. the more practice you get, the better you'll become, plus these situations allow you to be able to fill in at a moments notice. I get that all the time, and I don't mind. Imagine playing a song you've never heard while in the middle of a concert in front of a large audience. I've been in this situation before. This comes from playing songs in all keys and hearing all the various progressions and feeling what the next progression will be.
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Technically, its not all in vain.
But it is frustrating as all get out! >:(
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Frustrating? yes, in vain? no. IMO
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But it is frustrating as all get out! >:(
if it wasnt frustrating, it wouldnt match with all the other frustrating stuff we deal with... hauling equipment, ending early to pack up while everybody just jams on, not being considered a musician, everybody steppin on your toes playing your parts, having to play in some little corner or crawl space, etc.
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Frustrating? yes, in vain? no. IMO
Agreed. Makes us better musicians in the long run. :)
if it wasnt frustrating, it wouldnt match with all the other frustrating stuff we deal with... hauling equipment, ending early to pack up while everybody just jams on, not being considered a musician, everybody steppin on your toes playing your parts, having to play in some little corner or crawl space, etc.
Being told you're too loud, sound technician forgetting to unmute your channel on the board...
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I do apologize for the uproar and it was a keyboard I donated. But it really cripples a young musicians.
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when the transpose button was left enabled it made everyone think I was out of tune. that was the worse day to leave my tuner home. when I was tuning to the keyboard i knew something was odd when all 5 strings were out of tune at the same amount.
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Technically, its not all in vain. the more practice you get, the better you'll become, plus these situations allow you to be able to fill in at a moments notice. I get that all the time, and I don't mind. Imagine playing a song you've never heard while in the middle of a concert in front of a large audience. I've been in this situation before. This comes from playing songs in all keys and hearing all the various progressions and feeling what the next progression will be.
To piggy back off what I said in this previous post, I was put into the same situation yesterday. I had downloaded a song this week from itunes on Wednesday (i think) because I heard one of the fellow band members say that they used to play this song. Well, yesterday the praise and worship leader decided to replace one of our originally planned songs with this new song. Well, I had not sat down to learn it. I had only listened to it a couple of times. Guess what, I played it on the spot and no one knew that I hadn't learned it. Why was I able to do this? I've been put in this situation before and I never complained and it made me that much better. BTW, the song was "I wanna thank you" by Clint Brown if anyone wants to listen to the song. I love the song.
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A quick update. I called her and apologized for not just picking up the new key and mentioning it afterwards. She said it was not a problem because we caught it and corrected it before the choir started singing, and she was not angry that I brought it to her attention.
God is working on me. She and I haven't always gotten along and I think He is helping me to work with her and helping her to work with me. He deserves all the glory and the praise! I am thankful He is helping me to develop a spirit of cooperation. :)
This is very encouraging. I don't get along very well with the other keyboard player in our church and i get very irritated at times but have been able to control it. But i realize now that it is not beneficial or godly at all. I am going to make an effort to get along.
When i am on keyboard and someone has decided to change the key at the last minute, i do get very very irritated but i go with it. I think its because i have relied too much on muscle memory for that song so when i play it in a key, i get so used to the fingering that moving to another key starts off awkward.
When i am on guitar i don't care what key you lay it in. I still get irritated when they key is changed, but that is only due to the fact that i am a straight kind of guy. If we do something one way, i don't see the need to change it.
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This is very encouraging. I don't get along very well with the other keyboard player in our church and i get very irritated at times but have been able to control it. But i realize now that it is not beneficial or godly at all. I am going to make an effort to get along.
When i am on keyboard and someone has decided to change the key at the last minute, i do get very very irritated but i go with it. I think its because i have relied too much on muscle memory for that song so when i play it in a key, i get so used to the fingering that moving to another key starts off awkward.
When i am on guitar i don't care what key you lay it in. I still get irritated when they key is changed, but that is only due to the fact that i am a straight kind of guy. If we do something one way, i don't see the need to change it.
i feel you on that. its the same way when i play on keyboard (i dabble, but i play my own songs) each key feels different so its kind of a muscle memory kind of thing. but its usually the keyboardist/organist that changes the key because they cant play in other keys (for any other reason, like the singer cant hit the notes, etc i dont mind). For a beginner i can understand, but still everyone should be informed, but for someone thats been playing for 30+ years, this shouldnt be an issue. apparently you havent mastered your instrument. and thats what really frustrates me: that in the few years i been playing i get frustrated when I havent reached the next level yet and work so hard to do so, but after 30 years you dont even care.
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i feel you on that. its the same way when i play on keyboard (i dabble, but i play my own songs) each key feels different so its kind of a muscle memory kind of thing. but its usually the keyboardist/organist that changes the key because they cant play in other keys (for any other reason, like the singer cant hit the notes, etc i dont mind). For a beginner i can understand, but still everyone should be informed, but for someone thats been playing for 30+ years, this shouldnt be an issue. apparently you havent mastered your instrument. and thats what really frustrates me: that in the few years i been playing i get frustrated when I havent reached the next level yet and work so hard to do so, but after 30 years you dont even care.
Folks just get comfortable and have never been put in a situation where they are pushed. For instance it is easy to just sit in ONE church your entire life and play the same old songs all the time for 20 years and not get better. You are not pushed.
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To piggy back off what I said in this previous post, I was put into the same situation yesterday. I had downloaded a song this week from itunes on Wednesday (i think) because I heard one of the fellow band members say that they used to play this song. Well, yesterday the praise and worship leader decided to replace one of our originally planned songs with this new song. Well, I had not sat down to learn it. I had only listened to it a couple of times. Guess what, I played it on the spot and no one knew that I hadn't learned it. Why was I able to do this? I've been put in this situation before and I never complained and it made me that much better. BTW, the song was "I wanna thank you" by Clint Brown if anyone wants to listen to the song. I love the song.
i believe situations like this become so much easier when you are able to work as a team with your fellow musicians.
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i believe situations like this become so much easier when you are able to work as a team with your fellow musicians.
Amen to that, floaded. :)
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thats strange because u dont (or at least i dont) develop relative pitch like that. relative pitch isnt about where the note falls on the instrument, but where it is in the scale relative to another note. when i hear something and i discern the pattern based on relative pitch, i dont envision my bass nor a keyboard. i hear where the note (chord) is in respect to the others. absolute pitch maybe, but relative pitch never. because the 5th (relative) is always the same distance from the root in respect to the scale, regardless of what key you're in. but i guess you may have a different method. what he said makes perfect sense to me in my approach to music on both keyboard and bass.
I hear you. I guess I was sorta talkin about perfect pitch, but it wasnt exactly perfect pitch so I didnt wanna call it that. But I just know where the notes on the board are, and if they are in a different place at different times, its gonna feel weird. I dont see how someone is going to develop that kinda feel for the board if they are constantly transposing, whether its to practice, or to cheat.
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I hear you. I guess I was sorta talkin about perfect pitch, but it wasnt exactly perfect pitch so I didnt wanna call it that. But I just know where the notes on the board are, and if they are in a different place at different times, its gonna feel weird. I dont see how someone is going to develop that kinda feel for the board if they are constantly transposing, whether its to practice, or to cheat.
the thing is, everyone doesnt need or necessarily want that kind of feel for the board. thats the part you have to keep in mind.
what you're bordering on is attempting to approach perfect pitch, but its tied to the keys positioning on the keyboard, and something that isnt easily uncoupled. and if that works for you, fine. but for me i work off of relative pitch, so when i hear an interval of a fourth i know its a fourth, whether i have my bass or not. its kind of like a person who tunes their bass flat. cant stand it, because most people wanna call out notes and its hard for me to find. but if you tell me the progression (or let me figure it out), that bass can be tuned flat, double flat, sharp or whatever and i can play what i need to play.
its how you internalize the music that determines which things will be an obstacle for you and which things make it easier. but we all have to remember that thats not the same for everyone. i try to understand others methods so i can be aware of them, but i cant necessarily say my method is better or worse, and i dont try to do so.
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the thing is, everyone doesnt need or necessarily want that kind of feel for the board. thats the part you have to keep in mind.
what you're bordering on is attempting to approach perfect pitch, but its tied to the keys positioning on the keyboard, and something that isnt easily uncoupled. and if that works for you, fine. but for me i work off of relative pitch, so when i hear an interval of a fourth i know its a fourth, whether i have my bass or not. its kind of like a person who tunes their bass flat. cant stand it, because most people wanna call out notes and its hard for me to find. but if you tell me the progression (or let me figure it out), that bass can be tuned flat, double flat, sharp or whatever and i can play what i need to play.
its how you internalize the music that determines which things will be an obstacle for you and which things make it easier. but we all have to remember that thats not the same for everyone. i try to understand others methods so i can be aware of them, but i cant necessarily say my method is better or worse, and i dont try to do so.
True, I guess it depends on what instrument you play (organ/real piano has no transpose) and the setting/enviorment in which you play. I just think that having that kinda feel makes it easier when doing thing like backing up a preacher or soloist, especially when they jump around to different keys. But You're right, everybody is different.