LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Gospel Drummers => Topic started by: sugabear on April 15, 2009, 09:34:34 PM
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Hey fam. Here's a clip of me playing some CCM music. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's my attempt at trying to stretch myself I play some music that takes me out of my comfort zone. Check it out.
https://www.yousendit.com/download/dVlwckhVNkdrUm1Ga1E9PQ (https://www.yousendit.com/download/dVlwckhVNkdrUm1Ga1E9PQ)
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Yeah man, appreciate the share.
Did good, respect.
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nice feel. I like
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Excellent job...I luv the song too... You did your thing, your playing definitely complimented the music. Again, nice work..Stay Blessed, Nate P.S. I am so happy that I did not hear gospel chops on a CCM song..excellent job..
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Excellent job...I luv the song too... You did your thing, your playing definitely complimented the music. Again, nice work..Stay Blessed, Nate P.S. I am so happy that I did not hear gospel chops on a CCM song..excellent job..
Ay, Nate - I'm not referring to you directly, but this has been bothering me on other sites.
What is gospel chops? I thought that it was a brand. I don't mean to rant, but I hate to read/hear that, especially on other forums, where they use that term to look down on that genre (superior versus inferior). We don't say metal chops or fusion chops. We chops are chops, regardless of the genre.
But yeah, sugabear, I'll check it out when I get to the crib...
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I meant to type the following:
Chops are chops, regardless of the genre.
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Ay, Nate - I'm not referring to you directly, but this has been bothering me on other sites.
What is gospel chops? I thought that it was a brand. I don't mean to rant, but I hate to read/hear that, especially on other forums, where they use that term to look down on that genre (superior versus inferior). We don't say metal chops or fusion chops. We chops are chops, regardless of the genre.
But yeah, sugabear, I'll check it out when I get to the crib...
I would venture that he was referring to what may be considered typical gospel fills and licks. Contemporary "Black" gospel music has really developed it's own particular voice and in some ways a new identity. By that I guess I'm suggesting that "church drummers" are more recognized today as sounding like "church drummers." Now, on the one hand, that's a good thing because I think it has drawn a lot more folks to the music and the genre in general and folks are actually interested in checking out things they may not have thought about before. And like I said, to me, that really is a good thing. However, because gospel drummers (and gospel musicians in general) have seemed to become more popular these days, I think maybe the gospel sound, per se, has become a little generic. Now I qualify that statement by saying that all gospel drummers don't necessarily sound the same, but many tend to lock themselves into the gospel style of play and many try to make it fit in places where it doesn't necessarily work. A lot of cats are using the same fills, licks, and tricks and trying to force square pegs in round holes, if you will. Nate, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is where you were going with that. I enjoyed Suga's track for the same reason. It didn't at all feel like he was trying to force Sunday morning service into it. He let the song breathe and go where it was supposed to go. Sugabear, excellent work Sir.
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I would venture that he was referring to what may be considered typical gospel fills and licks. Contemporary "Black" gospel music has really developed it's own particular voice and in some ways a new identity. By that I guess I'm suggesting that "church drummers" are more recognized today as sounding like "church drummers." Now, on the one hand, that's a good thing because I think it has drawn a lot more folks to the music and the genre in general and folks are actually interested in checking out things they may not have thought about before. And like I said, to me, that really is a good thing. However, because gospel drummers (and gospel musicians in general) have seemed to become more popular these days, I think maybe the gospel sound, per se, has become a little generic. Now I qualify that statement by saying that all gospel drummers don't necessarily sound the same, but many tend to lock themselves into the gospel style of play and many try to make it fit in places where it doesn't necessarily work. A lot of cats are using the same fills, licks, and tricks and trying to force square pegs in round holes, if you will. Nate, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is where you were going with that.
This blanket statement could also apply to other idioms. This was the main idea of my original post.
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I think that depends on your perception. You said, "Chops are chops, regardless of the genre." I disagree. Church chops are church chops. Jazz chops are jazz chops. Metal chops are metal chops. I concede that there is some overlap, and you can certainly make some things work from each in the other. You must agree though that each genre has its own unique style and that you couldn't possibly play any chop on any gig. I mean really, if a chop is a chop, why don't you see cats on mainstream jazz gigs playing death metal double bass.
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I define chops as accuracy, coordination and speed as it relates to playing. All of the listed idioms includes these attributes.
Having chops allows you to play things effortlessly, but as with anything, context is key.
Maybe you're using chops interchangably with a fill/lick.
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Maybe you're using chops interchangably with a fill/lick.
or phrasing...
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Chops are the parents of fills/licks and phrasing. Without the parents, you can't have children.
There is a difference in the two. This is why I said "Chops are chops, regardless of the genre."
Fills/licks and phrasing on the other hand, is a different story. This is where church, jazz, metal, et al fills/licks (not chops)and phrasing comes into play as it relates to its application and ultimately, it's appropriateness.
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or phrasing...
I am, mostly. We're on the same page though...you seem to be talking more technique, I'm talking more approach. Which, again, I believe is what Nate meant.
Sidenote:
Took it back to the shield, eh?!
\ooo/ brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......it's cold in here!
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I am, mostly. We're on the same page though...you seem to be talking more technique, I'm talking more approach. Which, again, I believe is what Nate meant.
Sidenote:
Took it back to the shield, eh?!
\ooo/ brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......it's cold in here!
It's all love, man! :D
You have a few brothers on the site...
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I am, mostly. We're on the same page though...you seem to be talking more technique, I'm talking more approach. Which, again, I believe is what Nate meant.
Sidenote:
Took it back to the shield, eh?!
\ooo/ brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......it's cold in here!
There must be an Alpha in the atmosphere!....
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Thanks guys for the love. I also see another interesting topic has spurned up as well. I love it. Since this is my first venture into this type of music, I really took some time to listen to some of the drummers that play CCM. I noticed that they all seemed to have this sort of "swagger" in their playing, meaning they sort of play loosely around the meter. There fills are also really open and dramatic. I tried to authenticate that feel. I must say, though it may seems like it, it wasn't easy trying to incorporate that.
I've played mostly gospel all of my life and became use to the intricacies in the genre, especially fill-wise. The fills tend to be a lot faster (subdivisionally) and powerful. That's a hard habit to break. That's why I appreciate guys like Calvin because they've incorporated the more open fill/lick into gospel music.
While playing CCM, I literally have to over exaggerate the movements in my limbs to counteract my instinct do a fast fill (i.e. 16th and 32nd notes). The audience takes it as me being animated and "into" it, but I'm literally fully extending my arms when going around the kit. It helps. I also had to tone down the activity on the bass drum. In gospel music there are a lot of notes that can be played on the bass drum. I had to mindfully pull the reigns on that as well. I haven't by any means perfected the genre, but those few actions I've taken has made the adjusment a lot less noticeable.
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Yeah man - it's usually tough when you have to mentally make major adjustments in your approach. You'll be on auto pilot once you get used to playing with the similar approaches within that genre.
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Hey fam. Here's a clip of me playing some CCM music. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's my attempt at trying to stretch myself I play some music that takes me out of my comfort zone. Check it out.
https://www.yousendit.com/download/dVlwckhVNkdrUm1Ga1E9PQ (https://www.yousendit.com/download/dVlwckhVNkdrUm1Ga1E9PQ)
I like the song... never heard it before now.
Good job doc, nice and open drum sound nice behind the beat feel. Let me offer a couple of suggestions:
(1) 14"x6" snare medium tight batter with wide wires medium tight. If you tune the heads to loose you will get a muddy sound/to much bottom.... Economic choices are the steel drums that come with the Stage Custom Birch or the Pearl Visions. 14"x6" nickle-plated brass or hammered brass, bronze or copper, 14"x7" oak or 14"x8" Birch Custom Absoulute, DW Aluminum are ideal.
(2) Consider your tom setup focus... with CCM it is more 12" rack, 14" and 16" low toms. Reference Hillsong United's drummer and Chris Tomlin's drummer and Paul Beloche's drummer Carl Albrecht.
(3) Make FLAT FLAMS and FLAMS in general your bestest friends forever. These along with high sticking your 8th note hi-hat will really lock the feel.
An exercise that Jojo Mayer taught at his clinic is to practice soloing with only 8th notes at a slow tempo don't do a fill for like 5 minutes just various 8th note phrases. Think song form AABA etc. By the time you settle in and make music you waont really want to do a fill but when you do it sounds huge and amazing. This is excellent for developing that CCM, Country, Pop/Rock thing.
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I will check this out when I get to the crib home skillet!!! I know it was on point though. When are you going to post the Josh Helms vid aye???
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I will check this out when I get to the crib home skillet!!! I know it was on point though. When are you going to post the Josh Helms vid aye???
I like the song... never heard it before now.
Good job doc, nice and open drum sound nice behind the beat feel. Let me offer a couple of suggestions:
(1) 14"x6" snare medium tight batter with wide wires medium tight. If you tune the heads to loose you will get a muddy sound/to much bottom.... Economic choices are the steel drums that come with the Stage Custom Birch or the Pearl Visions. 14"x6" nickle-plated brass or hammered brass, bronze or copper, 14"x7" oak or 14"x8" Birch Custom Absoulute, DW Aluminum are ideal.
(2) Consider your tom setup focus... with CCM it is more 12" rack, 14" and 16" low toms. Reference Hillsong United's drummer and Chris Tomlin's drummer and Paul Beloche's drummer Carl Albrecht.
(3) Make FLAT FLAMS and FLAMS in general your bestest friends forever. These along with high sticking your 8th note hi-hat will really lock the feel.
An exercise that Jojo Mayer taught at his clinic is to practice soloing with only 8th notes at a slow tempo don't do a fill for like 5 minutes just various 8th note phrases. Think song form AABA etc. By the time you settle in and make music you waont really want to do a fill but when you do it sounds huge and amazing. This is excellent for developing that CCM, Country, Pop/Rock thing.
Thanks for all the advice uncle Sabe. That song is an original by the P and W leader (lead singer on track). He handed me a scratch track with vocals and acoustic guitar and said, "See what you can do with this." I love this guy because he gives me a lot of freedom to rhythmically create on his original stuff. I most definitely will apply what you said. Everything I played on is owned by the church. They have a Tama Starclassic Performer. The rack toms are 10" and 14" and they have a 5.5x14. That set up most definitely doesn't fit the type of music they play. I've been looking at getting another snare soon. I was looking at a Tama 6x14 G Maple snare. The other drummer that played there brought in a Premier 8x14 resonator snare drum and that thing brought tears to my eyes. It fit the music perfectly. I was one to put off big snares until I played that snare. We actually will be travelling to Nashville next month to perform at a conference. If you're still in Tennessee, let me know. I'll pass on the info in case you have time to come check it out.
I will check this out when I get to the crib home skillet!!! I know it was on point though. When are you going to post the Josh Helms vid aye???
What's up man! actually this is the audio from the video. It's a lot more clearer. That's the reason I posted it. I just recorded 7 tracks for Josh. Once he does what he needs to do with them I'll most definitely let you hear them.
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I would venture that he was referring to what may be considered typical gospel fills and licks. Contemporary "Black" gospel music has really developed it's own particular voice and in some ways a new identity. By that I guess I'm suggesting that "church drummers" are more recognized today as sounding like "church drummers." Now, on the one hand, that's a good thing because I think it has drawn a lot more folks to the music and the genre in general and folks are actually interested in checking out things they may not have thought about before. And like I said, to me, that really is a good thing. However, because gospel drummers (and gospel musicians in general) have seemed to become more popular these days, I think maybe the gospel sound, per se, has become a little generic. Now I qualify that statement by saying that all gospel drummers don't necessarily sound the same, but many tend to lock themselves into the gospel style of play and many try to make it fit in places where it doesn't necessarily work. A lot of cats are using the same fills, licks, and tricks and trying to force square pegs in round holes, if you will. Nate, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is where you were going with that. I enjoyed Suga's track for the same reason. It didn't at all feel like he was trying to force Sunday morning service into it. He let the song breathe and go where it was supposed to go. Sugabear, excellent work Sir.
Yeah, thanks Jedi3 for the clarification.....I know that I was not clear on my explanation...I understand perfectly what you mean J kay...however, all genres of music tend to have a feel and musicians must have a specific approach in order to capture what an artist wants. Chops are chops and fills are fills but, as musician we incorporate those chops and fills and cater them to the specific music that the music calls for..I explain further later.. I have to go...this is going to be an interesting discussion..stay blessed, nate J.
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man you sound good!!!
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..I understand perfectly what you mean J kay...however, all genres of music tend to have a feel and musicians must have a specific approach in order to capture what an artist wants. Chops are chops and fills are fills but, as musician we incorporate those chops and fills and cater them to the specific music that the music calls for..I explain further later.. I have to go...this is going to be an interesting discussion..stay blessed, nate J.
Ay, did you see that?!?
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Sounds good, man. Drop a few subtleties on that snare, man...
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man you sound good!!!
Thanks for the love my friend. I gotta come on the other side of the pond and holla at my boy!!!
Sounds good, man. Drop a few subtleties on that snare, man...
Thanks for the encouragement J. Can you elaborate on what you mean by the highlighted portion? I'm looking for as much help as possible sounding authentic.
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amen amen jedi thats giving the dictonary term, and no chops arnt chops I am a R & B and funk drummer, i cant play ska, punk, heavy metal, or fast rock although i can in order to expand my repetoir but that not my pocket of playing, a pro should feel his or her comfort zone make you a more of a dynamic player
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I take it that you didn't really comprehend my points. I'm speaking on what chops are. Chops and fills/licks and phrasing are different things. If what I'm saying is the "dictionary term" (and I can't find the definition of [drum] chops), wouldn't a point of reference be *wait for it* a dictionary?!?
Why do you think that chop builder excercises are written? It is to improve upon what I've defined as chops (see page one, just in case you missed it). What you're doing is using chops and fills/licks/phrasing interchangeably (it's kinda like saying that ignorant and stupid are the same, in which it isn't).
Being able to authentically play R&B, Ska, Punk, Heavy Metal or Speed Metal requires chops. Those chops will allow you to facilitate your ideas (reaad: fills/licks and phrasing) around the drumset after you've learned those idioms.
So wait - you said that you can't play Ska, Punk, Heavy Metal, etc., although you can?!? ?/? I don't understand your syntax. Care to retype that sentence clearer?
Lastly, your examples are not congruent with the definition of chops - those examples speaks to vocabulary, based on what you stated what you can and cannot play. Chops does not equal vocabulary/being able to play different styles fluently. Chops are on the technical side of the fence.
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*exercises
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Thanks for the encouragement J. Can you elaborate on what you mean by the highlighted portion? I'm looking for as much help as possible sounding authentic.
Just add some Boo Diddleys to add more texture to your backbeat. Not too much, obviously...
(http://www.angelfire.com/ult/ace/SM3_boodiddlyGAME.png)
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I'm loving this song!
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Thanks for all the advice uncle Sabe. That song is an original by the P and W leader (lead singer on track). He handed me a scratch track with vocals and acoustic guitar and said, "See what you can do with this." I love this guy because he gives me a lot of freedom to rhythmically create on his original stuff. I most definitely will apply what you said. Everything I played on is owned by the church. They have a Tama Starclassic Performer. The rack toms are 10" and 14" and they have a 5.5x14. That set up most definitely doesn't fit the type of music they play. I've been looking at getting another snare soon. I was looking at a Tama 6x14 G Maple snare. The other drummer that played there brought in a Premier 8x14 resonator snare drum and that thing brought tears to my eyes. It fit the music perfectly. I was one to put off big snares until I played that snare. We actually will be travelling to Nashville next month to perform at a conference. If you're still in Tennessee, let me know. I'll pass on the info in case you have time to come check it out.
See 8"x14" Resonator.... it is that Swagger. That 6"x14" Paul Leim is the truth. Calvin gets a great sound from that and Obviously Nashville studio great Paul Leim does.
The exaggerated movements are time essentials. It is what I have termed the "Time Space Continuum". Gadd, Billy Ward, Tommy Igoe, Vinnie and others use these full, gracefully, dance-like motions. The motion from start to finish should encompass the spacial value of the note being played. It cause your whole body to play time and groove harder. If the drummer is dancing on the kit the people will be dancing on the floor. As the drummer the key is to stay in the moment... playing that song mind, body and soul at that moment.
Note: Cymbal wise 16" crash, then an 18" or two and a 20" crash.. Medium-Thin to Medium. Your hats should range 14" to 15".
Yes, I am still in Tennessee in Memphis about 2.5 away. I'll drop my number in your PM. We can really talk on the subject and hooking up in Nashville.
I look forward to hearing the rest of the project.
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Sounds good, man. Drop a few subtleties on that snare, man...
To add to what J said...
In Country and CCM there isn't as lot of triggering of the snare or complex tracks running so your voice is your snare. Brushes, Rutes, Broomsticks (for a fatter sound without low tuning or overpowering the song).
I used the country genre first because there are more examples to learn from as well as because the big names in CCM record in Nashville metro area and the same Session Musicians play on the the major label CCM records as the Country records. Over 60% of today's American music is recorded in Nashville. It is not called Music City for nothing. Dan Needham, J.D. Blair, Johnny Rabb, Chester Thompson, Derico Watson, Zoro, Carl Albreight, Eddie Bayers, Paul Liem, Evette "Baby Girl" Pryor (via Memphis), Jim Riley, other established drummers live in and around Nashville now instead of L.A. or NYC or ATL. And most established players that don't live there come there at some point to record.
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Man you know I was digging that joint from when I first heard it, and I still am. That was a straight solid peformance dude. I love playing CCM. It takes you to a whole different level, and increases your maturity as a musician. I am also a fan of playing open, and having your fills open. It creates space, and just lets the song breathe and flow. Thats why Im a big fan of Calvin myself (Not that he is the only one that does it) but I love the way he applies it. Hey...Btw Reno is doing a clinic on Monday at 6:30pm how about you shoot over this way homie?? What you say???
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I was able to find a definition of chops: http://www.humboldt1.com/~jazz/glossary.html#c (http://www.humboldt1.com/~jazz/glossary.html#c)
Chops: technical ability, to execute music physically and to negotiate chord changes. Distinct from the capacity to have good ideas, to phrase effectively and build a solo.
Hmm, just as I stated before...
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Just add some Boo Diddleys to add more texture to your backbeat. Not too much, obviously...
I'm guessing that you're referring to Ghost notes, right?
Being a CCM drummer, that's the first thing I was taught.
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I'm guessing that you're referring to Ghost notes, right?
Being a CCM drummer, that's the first thing I was taught.
Correct!
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I was able to find a definition of chops: [url]http://www.humboldt1.com/~jazz/glossary.html#c[/url] ([url]http://www.humboldt1.com/~jazz/glossary.html#c[/url])
Chops: technical ability, to execute music physically and to negotiate chord changes. Distinct from the capacity to have good ideas, to phrase effectively and build a solo.
Hmm, just as I stated before...
the Teacher has come out yet again...
Thank you for clarifying a word that we Americans especially have destroyed the meaning and understanding thereof. Even our greatest musicians role models are guilty of the abuse of this word in regard to music.
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Nice SugaBear. I really enjoyed that. :)
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I missed the clip! Somebody hook a brotha up!
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WOWZERS!!!!
What a great topic. Sugarbear, I didn't get to check out the track, but someone PM with it so I can check it out. However, the topic of chops and "gospel" chops is great. I agree with Jkay, "Gospel" chops is a brand. However, the drumming society has plagued this brand. They associate gospel chops as playing 32nd note, 16 note triplet linear licks. However, what's funny is Dave Weckl, Vinnie, Steve Smith, etc. have been doing it for years, yet they get praised for it. In my opinion the reason that people look at "gospel" chops as the licks that I stated above is that during "sheds" that's all they hear and see. If you go to youtube and type Drum Shed what you are going to see is ALOT of guys just ripping the drumset with the fastest lick(s) that they have, which most of the time are the same redudant licks. However, when Weckl, Vinnie, etc. perform their "licks" they do it in a MUSICAL situation. They perform those licks, but with different subdivision, quintuplets, septtuplets, etc.,to give the phrase and elastic feeling of stretching and pulling.I won't speak too much on "Sheds" because that can be a WHOLE other topic in itself.
As far as CCM goes, it's such a great genre when done properly. However, like Sabe said, you kind of need the right gear/sound!!! You need to get at least 6x14. A DW edge is ideal for this, a Paul Leim, Black Beauty, Steve Ferrone (which is discontinued by Pearl since he's a Gretsch artist now), Dennis Chambers snare, 7x14, etc. If you really want to get deep with it, you have to experiment with different types of wood, bubinga, oak, etc. Or if you really have the cash, check out the VLT shells that really have low fundamental pitch. Cymbal wise, you need some "big" cymbals. 16-20 Crashes are ideal. Hi-hats 14-15 like Sabe previously mentioned or get some 16-18 crashes and put them together. However make sure that the top "hi hat" is thin to medium thing. But be care with your technique. Make sure that you're playing these cymbals and drums with the correct technique. Pull the sound out of both drums and cymbals. 12" Rack, 14 and 16" floors are ideal. If you have an 18" More power to you LOL!!! All in all we need to choose the right tools for every application/genre we are trying to play. By tools, that not only means drums, cymbals, head selection, sticks,etc., but we need the right attitude, touch, feel, sensitivity, vibe, nuances, to portray our story. Finally and most importantly respect the music that you are playing. Remember to keep the conversation going. What you don't say is just as important if not more important than what you do say. I could type more, but I gotta get back to work. Take care and God Bless.
Mendoza
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Yo thanks for the link Fred. Very nice playing and this song is really nice SB!
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No problem, I thought about putting the link in this thread but I didn't want to do that without Suga's approval seeing as its not mine to pass around like that.
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No problem, I thought about putting the link in this thread but I didn't want to do that without Suga's approval seeing as its not mine to pass around like that.
Thanks for looking out for me Fred and getting that link to the guys who missed it. Thanks for the love Kevin. I pm'd you the link before I got to page 3 so pardon the redundancy. For anyone who missed the clip, here it goes again:
https://www.yousendit.com/download/dVlwSlJ3cG9Fd2VGa1E9PQ (https://www.yousendit.com/download/dVlwSlJ3cG9Fd2VGa1E9PQ)
Feel free to offer any suggestions for my approval. This thread has been very beneficial with all the advice and the chops topic that has been started.
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Thanks for looking out for me Fred and getting that link to the guys who missed it. Thanks for the love Kevin. I pm'd you the link before I got to page 3 so pardon the redundancy. For anyone who missed the clip, here it goes again:
https://www.yousendit.com/download/dVlwSlJ3cG9Fd2VGa1E9PQ (https://www.yousendit.com/download/dVlwSlJ3cG9Fd2VGa1E9PQ)
Feel free to offer any suggestions for my approval. This thread has been very beneficial with all the advice and the chops topic that has been started.
I meant for my "improving". lol
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cant argue with j kay, have been silenced..... How bout dim chops man? jus playin
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Ay, Nate - I'm not referring to you directly, but this has been bothering me on other sites.
What is gospel chops? I thought that it was a brand. I don't mean to rant, but I hate to read/hear that, especially on other forums, where they use that term to look down on that genre (superior versus inferior). We don't say metal chops or fusion chops. We chops are chops, regardless of the genre.
But yeah, sugabear, I'll check it out when I get to the crib...
lol.. that boy clean with them hip hop chops.. :D
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heres the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQvQUd134I&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQvQUd134I&feature=player_embedded)
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How bout dim chops man? jus playin
:D
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lol.. that boy clean with them hip hop chops.. :D
:D
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heres the video
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQvQUd134I&feature=player_embedded[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQvQUd134I&feature=player_embedded[/url])
I knew the video was out long ago....but since he posted the audio i didnt want to spill the video just in case there was a reason he didnt post it.
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My apologies!
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My apologies!
No sweat...he probaly wouldnt mind. I just didnt know.
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Hey peoplez!
I don't mind that you guys posted the video. The reason I posted the audio clip is because it was a little more audibly clear.
To give you guys an update, they just sent the completed project that this song appears on to mastering. I was allowed to hear a few finished tracks and they turned out really really good. I was amazed at how fast these guys are getting this thing done. Once I get a copy of the project I'll post it on here so you guys can chop me off at the knees. lol
Hey Dee. I came on here looking for you since I haven't heard from you in a while. Shoot me a pm with your contact info so I can holla atcha.