LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Gospel Keyboard / Piano => Topic started by: Blackwiz87 on April 22, 2009, 08:03:22 PM
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This is just something that has been going through my mind for years, and I feel like talking about it now lol.
But why does dvd lessons constantly compare their prices to hourly lessons done in person? They don't compare. I hate reading information on dvds like some of the popular dvds like Hear And Play and Gospel Keyboard. Im not taking anything away from their product. They have great product...real talk. J.Griggs has helped me out A LOT.
But why do they and many other dvds constantly compare their prices as if dvd lessons even compare. One, you get personal with an instructor and get one on one time and you take the instructor's precious time from them. Another, they videotape themselves giving lessons and make thousands of copies and sell the same copy to thousands of customers.
I respect each and what they do, but why compare the two. Yes a 2 hour dvd may cost $35 to $60 and yes hourly lessons done in person with an instructor may cost $50 an hour, but its not the same thing. If we all had all the money in the world, of course we'd take personal instruction over dvds because its better.
Reality is one can learn the piano just by going online and get a wealth of FREE information from this site to many other sites.
So if one instructor makes dvds, then compare your prices to the prices of other instructors who make dvds...not to personal lessons. It's not fair.
Anyone agree? Or no?
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I disagree, but thats just me.
I think some DVDs are worth the price and some are not. With Piano Lessons, you learn one, maybe two songs for $50. With a DVD, you can learn many many many songs, among other things like preacher chords and different grooves for the same price. With DVDS, you can pause and rewind, and go back to it whenever you want.
If you think about it in business terms, piano lessons are an expense, and DVDs are an asset. Once your hour is up, that $50 is gone, and you better hope you remember everything you learned. With DVDs, even though you paid $50, you still have something that you can go back to when you need to.
DVDs arent for everybody, and neither are lessons.
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I disagree, but thats just me.
I think some DVDs are worth the price and some are not. With Piano Lessons, you learn one, maybe two songs for $50. With a DVD, you can learn many many many songs, among other things like preacher chords and different grooves for the same price. With DVDS, you can pause and rewind, and go back to it whenever you want.
If you think about it in business terms, piano lessons are an expense, and DVDs are an asset. Once your hour is up, that $50 is gone, and you better hope you remember everything you learned. With DVDs, even though you paid $50, you still have something that you can go back to when you need to.
DVDs arent for everybody, and neither are lessons.
But I don't think you understand where I'm getting at. Obviously piano lessons are a lot more expensive. But obviously an instructor can't teach you in one hour what an dvd can teach you because on a dvd, you can pause and whatnot.
My point is you can't compare. It's not fair. If I give out piano lessons, Im taking hours out of my day to give someone personal attention and teach them. Of course it'll be expensive. A student would be paying for my knowledge, lessons and my personal time. Thats along with my guidance and overlook of their progress and work too.
Sure one may like dvd lessons better because you can work at your own pace or because they don't work well with others, but with a dvd, you aren't working directly with that instructor. Others may like personal lessons because of the attention they get and so forth. That all depends on ones preference. But there's a reason why one obviously cost more than the other. It's like going to college on campus versus attending college online. You can learn the same knowledge and online, you can graduate a lot faster. Attending on campus, the attention you get is a lot more personal(although not as person in bigger classes obviously). Both are great..both are fine...but still, one understand why one cost more than the other. Instructors on campus have to get paid for their time and whatnot where as college on line, you just type up a lesson and copy and paste it or make it a download or whatever.
The point of my post is to not say whether one is better than the other...but you can't compare. So if you can't compare, then prices shouldn't be compared.
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I dont see why they cant be compared. Maybe I'm missing something ?/?
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I dont see why they cant be compared. Maybe I'm missing something ?/?
Because they are both different. Maybe I should rephrase. Yes you can compare them because its just natural for people to compare.
But if I type up an ad to advertise my dvd and it ends with:
"You get tons of information for only $49.99. Piano instructor's charge $40-$80 a lesson and with this 2 hour dvd, you get the same lessons for only $49.99"
That's when it becomes incomparable. How can one compare. Like you said, dvds aren't for everybody and lessons aren't for everybody. But to compare prices, its like saying you'll get what lessons give on dvd. The most you'll get is content, but you can never get the personal attention that lessons give. Personal does go a long way. So its matter of if one needs personal attention or not. You can only get but so much with lessons(unless someone is willing to act as a rewind button and repeat over and over lol) and just the same with dvd lessons. So they are two different products. Feel me?
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So you dont want us to compare two things, because they are different? ?/?
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So you dont want us to compare two things, because they are different? ?/?
Maybe I should rephrase. Yes you can compare them because its just natural for people to compare.
Did you even bother to read anything I posted? Not trying to be funny, im actually dead serious :-\
But I do like debate so I will keep at it ;)
Im saying for dvds to make it like they are giving the same thing as lessons but for a cheaper price...well, thats really not the case. They are giving something different. Its not just about content...or else I can type up a whole book with piano lessons.....personal lessons...dvd lessons...book lessons...they are all different.
Its like Bob selling chicken and Frank selling beef. For Bob to say "you get my chicken for this price, while other MEAT sellers have their prices higher"
Yes they are both meat, but they are both still different.
So I feel dvds should be compared with dvds......personal lessons give something that dvds can never give...and vice versa.
Again...personal lessons...dvd lessons...book lessons...they are all different. Both have strengths and weakness and its all about what the customer prefers....am I really getting a deal for paying for a book thats a whole lot cheaper than a dvd. Its supposed to be cheaper(dont get too technical, obviously some books do cost more than dvds etc) because its not the same thing. To imply like you get more for the money is all up to ones perspective and what an particular person prefers.
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They both teach music. I dont think its that big a deal. Its advertising. Adverisers compare their products to their competitors. I dont see whats wrong with that. I dont think it takes a rocket surgeon to know that they cant ask the dvd player questions or ask it how they are coming along.
But I too like to debate (if you havent noticed) :D
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They both teach music. I dont think its that big a deal. Its advertising. Adverisers compare their products to their competitors. I dont see whats wrong with that. I dont think it takes a rocket surgeon to know that they cant ask the dvd player questions or ask it how they are coming along.
But I too like to debate (if you havent noticed) :D
Well if we were truly honest, nothing discussed on these boards are that big of a deal like the conversations would tend to show.
Its just that its a constant thing that I read on the main page of these products. I dont know...its just like, when i read it...I think in my head, no im not saving money on anything, because if I had all the money in the world, I'd take personal lessons in a heartbeat and get up close with it. On a lot of these dvds, its just people showing us how they play...rather than teaching, they are showing us what they do. Maybe its just me.
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they are showing us what they do. Maybe its just me.
can you list the dvds that you own?
And if you are talking about hear and plays website, I think their whole site is absolutely ludicrous. It looks more like a scam, than an online store.
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can you list the dvds that you own?
And if you are talking about hear and plays website, I think their whole site is absolutely ludicrous. It looks more like a scam, than an online store.
:D :D :D
Dude i was SOOOO hesitant to buy anything from H&P's website. I was so very sure it was a scam. I think they need to over-haul the website.
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:D :D :D
Dude i was SOOOO hesitant to buy anything from H&P's website. I was so very sure it was a scam. I think they need to over-haul the website.
yeah man. It took me like 30 minutes to find the page where you order the products. Then when you you order what you want, it offers you other products at a discount price. its kinda like shopping at one of those Arab owned stores where you buy some socks and they offer you a suit for $10 more.
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This is just something that has been going through my mind for years, and I feel like talking about it now lol.
But why does dvd lessons constantly compare their prices to hourly lessons done in person? They don't compare.
Well, the problem here may be the way you are looking at it man. Believe it or not, these 2 situations DO compare, monetarily speaking. You're basically paying the same amount of money in each situaion, but the mode of learning is different. One is in-person, the other is in-person on DVD. Some people learn better in person, some people can learn just fine from a DVD.
There really is no clear cut "best" option here, only the option that works best for you. I understand what u trying to say man, really I do. Just try to look at this more subjectively.
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can you list the dvds that you own?
And if you are talking about hear and plays website, I think their whole site is absolutely ludicrous. It looks more like a scam, than an online store.
If i were to go off the top of my head, umm...I own Gospel Keys 202, um Gospel Keys 300...One of Jamal Hartwells first dvds, Gospel Keys 201, ...I dont remember any more at the top of my head(at least not names). I got all of these over a long span of time.
But I wasn't talking about any particular website because its not just Hear And Play that does it. Most dvd websites have those same kind of pages...a full page full of hype and whatnot. Im not saying the product isn't good, but except for a few, most of those dvds just showed some licks and whatnot that you can add...instead of teaching sort to speak...if you feel what im saying.
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Well the only reason i buy DVDs is to learn a particular style. I prefer to have a teacher show me stuff.
Speaking of which i halted buying DVDs cuz i noticed i don't really watch them.
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It's kind of like the difference between hiring a personal trainer and just buying an excercise video. Some people may need the extra push from having to deal with a person directly. A video can teach you the same things but you have to be a bit more motivated and set your own pace.
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It's kind of like the difference between hiring a personal trainer and just buying an excercise video. Some people may need the extra push from having to deal with a person directly. A video can teach you the same things but you have to be a bit more motivated and set your own pace.
Excellent parallel.
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It's kind of like the difference between hiring a personal trainer and just buying an excercise video. Some people may need the extra push from having to deal with a person directly. A video can teach you the same things but you have to be a bit more motivated and set your own pace.
Excellent parallel.
Agreed.
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It's like comparing apples to oranges...two different animals, IMO.
Live teachers can give you personal attention, strengthen your weaknesses and explain your questions. OTOH, they can sidetrack you from what you really want to learn (if you have set goals).
With DVD's, you can go over and over the spots you would like to learn - some tutorials have the keyboard w/notes highlighted. But you are limited to what is on the recording...
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Exactly. You guys are comparing the two(dvd lessons versus personal lessons) and while the content is the same, they are different. Its all about which one a particular individual prefers. All that is fine and dandy...but its like, then why do dvds front and compare their prices to personal lessons as if you're getting that on dvd, but for cheaper? You aren't getting that, because with personal lessons, its a whole new ball game.
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I find that what I learn from my teacher sticks with me far longer than what I learn from a DVD. Could be that it's more hands on, or it could be that my ambitious side leads me to buy a lot of DVDs that I'm not really ready to tackle yet.
Like Betnich said, though, teachers can sidetrack you if you have a specific goal in mind. Right now, my teacher has me sight-reading Hymns that have two notes in the right hand and two in the left. I know he has enough expertise to know what's good for me, but I highly doubt I'm going to be playing full hymns with only two-note chords in ANY live setting ANY time soon :D.
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I know he has enough expertise to know what's good for me, but I highly doubt I'm going to be playing full hymns with only two-note chords in ANY live setting ANY time soon :D.
And u shouldn't because hymns weren't made to be played on piano, they were made to be sung in 4-part harmony. It's good for sight-reading though, so keep at it. Once u get to some hard music, you will appreciate going through this man.
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And u shouldn't because hymns weren't made to be played on piano, they were made to be sung in 4-part harmony. It's good for sight-reading though, so keep at it. Once u get to some hard music, you will appreciate going through this man.
True, also I think the hymnals are mostly used by pipe organist. With all the different stops, you can multiply the amount of notes, so even though you are only playing 4 notes and pedals, its gonna sound full
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Honestly i don't know how you guys do it. I cannot sight read both bass and treble clefs together. I just can't get it all in my head. I can sight-read both separately, but not together.
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Honestly i don't know how you guys do it. I cannot sight read both bass and treble clefs together. I just can't get it all in my head. I can sight-read both separately, but not together.
you have to practice, the more you read the more you increase.
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Honestly i don't know how you guys do it. I cannot sight read both bass and treble clefs together. I just can't get it all in my head. I can sight-read both separately, but not together.
Well, when I'm sight-reading the treble clef, I mainly only look at the first note. The first note pretty much tells me what the chord is going to be. That's where knowing your intervals and some theory comes into play.
Then, in reality, the bass clef isn't going to contain very many notes, so it shouldn't be too hard to recognize. With a lot of the notes being spread so far apart, though, it can become a little strenuous at times. Just gotta keep practicing at it.
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you have to practice, the more you read the more you increase.
I've always sucked at sight reading. I have never been in an environment where I did it on a regular basis.
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I've always sucked at sight reading. I have never been in an environment where I did it on a regular basis.
I could sight read the right hand of a hymn pretty well, but that was it. but just knowing that has helped a lot. I usually just memorized the right hand and read the left
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I've always sucked at sight reading. I have never been in an environment where I did it on a regular basis.
I am learning, and getting better. Probably after I finish taking lessons I want be sight reading on a regular basis. I really want to train my ear.
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I really want to train my ear.
That's always been my "problem" When I took lessons, the teacher would play the song I was supposed to sight read. I wouldn't ready but just play what she played. It worked for a while until she tricked me and put up the sheet music for one song but played different song.
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I noticed that when reading music from an hymn book certain patterns of notes show up over and over relative to the key that you are playing in at the time. When you see the pattern, you don't actually have to read the notes as you already know what they are(by recognizing the pattern) I started to look for them and to try to internalize them. That helped a little bit. Most of the patterns are parts of 1-4-5 chords split up into two hands. Sometimes I will add the tenor note to the first two, playing a chord in the right hand and playing the bass low on the board in octaves. That way you can add bass runs. As a memory aid, you can write the chord names in above the lines(stanza)or at the top for tricky parts.
The African American Heritage Hymnal, a good practice tool, also has some licks and short runs in it that are helpful. They can be used with other songs.
There are churches(sometimes methodist)that would be well pleased if you played hymns from a book and played them well. (and threw in a foot stomper off and on)
I would really like to be able to read sheet music well. It would be great just to buy sheet music for a song that you like and just play it from the music. that is not at all easy. Certainly more difficult than reading from an hymn book.
berbie
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There are different levels to reading.
The first level is like knowing the alphabet and how the letters sound. You can recognize the notes on the staff, but you have to sound out each chord. You cannot recognize "words", or in this case, chords.
The second level is like knowing the shapes of words. When we read English, we don't have to sound out the words because we recognize their shapes. I'm sure all of us have seen the jumbled word test, wehre yuo cna sitll raed teh wrods enve thuogh thye'er mixde, which is like reading chord inversions. This applies to reading sheet music: once you can recognize the different shapes of the chords, then you don't have to sound it out.
The third level is when you can recognize groups of chords, and internalize it before you actually play it. This is called chunking. We do this when we read English too. Good readers can read groups of words before they say them aloud.
The fourth level would be like speed reading. Expert readers can internalize huge chunks of words. An expert sight reader can look over sheet music once, and play it without ever looking at it again.
Personally, I fall between level 1 and 2. I used to be at level two, but lost it when I stopped playing for five years. I haven't put a lot of effort into gaining it back yet. I'm between 3 and 4 with my ear, because I can hear the quality of chords and progressions, and sometimes even repeat a song perfectly. Because of some gaps in my knowledge, I feel I'm still an intermediate player--maybe even a low intermediate.
A lot of people here will say they are intermediate, when they're really beginners, or say they are advanced, when they are really intermediate.
I'll give an example:
I bought a bottle of "Banana Cream Muscle Milk" yesterday. My daughter saw it and wanted some, but when I asked her what it was, she hadn't seen the bottle, and thought it was juice. This is what happens when a beginner hears a song: they don't even get close to it.
After she had seen the bottle, she could read the words but couldn't sound out "muscle" correctly. She said "myuscal". My wife and I laughed, but she didn't think it was funny. She also saw the banana image, but from where she was sitting it looked like a lemon, I guess. An intermediate player is like this: they can play the song pretty close, but it's still off a little.
An advanced player cannot only create music, they can also replicate what they read and hear.
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Right now, my teacher has me sight-reading Hymns that have two notes in the right hand and two in the left. I know he has enough expertise to know what's good for me, but I highly doubt I'm going to be playing full hymns with only two-note chords in ANY live setting ANY time soon :D.
CHEAT on playing Hymns from the book: Just play the top note melody in the RH (Treble - Soprano part) and the bottom note in the LH (Bass). If you can't do that, then just the top note in the Trable staff....fill in the inner notes later...
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^^
B3 that post is EXCELLENT!!!
As far as reading music is concerned, i am definitely at level 1. I know what the notes are and can call them out and such, but i cannot understand them in chunks. I am really trying to work hard at it, but it can be frustrating.
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There are different levels to reading.
The first level is like knowing the alphabet and how the letters sound. You can recognize the notes on the staff, but you have to sound out each chord. You cannot recognize "words", or in this case, chords.
The second level is like knowing the shapes of words. When we read English, we don't have to sound out the words because we recognize their shapes. I'm sure all of us have seen the jumbled word test, wehre yuo cna sitll raed teh wrods enve thuogh thye'er mixde, which is like reading chord inversions. This applies to reading sheet music: once you can recognize the different shapes of the chords, then you don't have to sound it out.
The third level is when you can recognize groups of chords, and internalize it before you actually play it. This is called chunking. We do this when we read English too. Good readers can read groups of words before they say them aloud.
The fourth level would be like speed reading. Expert readers can internalize huge chunks of words. An expert sight reader can look over sheet music once, and play it without ever looking at it again.
Personally, I fall between level 1 and 2. I used to be at level two, but lost it when I stopped playing for five years. I haven't put a lot of effort into gaining it back yet. I'm between 3 and 4 with my ear, because I can hear the quality of chords and progressions, and sometimes even repeat a song perfectly. Because of some gaps in my knowledge, I feel I'm still an intermediate player--maybe even a low intermediate.
A lot of people here will say they are intermediate, when they're really beginners, or say they are advanced, when they are really intermediate.
I'll give an example:
I bought a bottle of "Banana Cream Muscle Milk" yesterday. My daughter saw it and wanted some, but when I asked her what it was, she hadn't seen the bottle, and thought it was juice. This is what happens when a beginner hears a song: they don't even get close to it.
After she had seen the bottle, she could read the words but couldn't sound out "muscle" correctly. She said "myuscal". My wife and I laughed, but she didn't think it was funny. She also saw the banana image, but from where she was sitting it looked like a lemon, I guess. An intermediate player is like this: they can play the song pretty close, but it's still off a little.
An advanced player cannot only create music, they can also replicate what they read and hear.
...I guess I would be a level 3.... I'm the type that if you put sheet music in front of me, I would have at it....
...from elementary-middle school my piano teacher would put me in competitions that would have you first play your piece and then sight-read a piece that they give you...
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My problem is trusting my ear more...I can sit down, listen to a song and write the notes out but playing on the spot is a struggle...
...Although my style at church flows, playing nothing but classical piano for almost 10 years has made my hands kind of stiff and so structured...
...jazz lessons have helped a little, but when you are trained to be a "perfectionist" on the piano, you get scared to play a note that's wrong...even if it does fit...
...My dad laughs at me because I have no expression in my face when I'm playing
...that's gonna change...I got my LGM fam to help me...:)
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Yeah i remember when some dude came to our church once and said he could play piano. he had been solely classically trained and could play all these pieces like nobody's business. However when it came time to playing a gospel song i was so disappointed to see that all he could play were 1-4-5 basic triads and such.
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Yeah i remember when some dude came to our church once and said he could play piano. he had been solely classically trained and could play all these pieces like nobody's business. However when it came time to playing a gospel song i was so disappointed to see that all he could play were 1-4-5 basic triads and such.
I was like that when I first played at church (age 14)...now...I've never had to worry because the songs we sing...I have the sheets music for (Gospel & CCM) I'll either have the sheets or I would listen at home and write them myself...I just want to be prepared for the..."God has put this song on my heart..." stuff without stressin out...
...The crazy thing is...that has happened to me before and I played the song just fine, but on the inside I was freakin out!
...it's a trust issue for me...
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Yeah i remember when some dude came to our church once and said he could play piano. he had been solely classically trained and could play all these pieces like nobody's business. However when it came time to playing a gospel song i was so disappointed to see that all he could play were 1-4-5 basic triads and such.
That is so true. You know man, different people got they own definition of being "good" on the keys. You can be an awesome sight-reader, but suck at playing by ear. You can be an awesome ear player, but suck at sight-reading. For each of those types of people, you will get some who would call them beasts for the one skill, and sorry for the other skill.
I'm learning more and more that it is best to be well-rounded in many aspects (and genres) of music and not to think too highly of yourself or anybody else.
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That is so true. You know man, different people got they own definition of being "good" on the keys. You can be an awesome sight-reader, but suck at playing by ear. You can be an awesome ear player, but suck at sight-reading. For each of those types of people, you will get some who would call them beasts for the one skill, and sorry for the other skill.
I'm learning more and more that it is best to be well-rounded in many aspects (and genres) of music and not to think too highly of yourself or anybody else.
Agreed...
...I always try to learn from other musicians and it annoys me a little when I come across other musicians who act as if they're done learning...
...When I get together with my brother, we're studying...music is so complex and amazing...I'm never bored with it...
I'm serious, the lgm fam has really helped me out a burnch(int). Such a blessin you guys are to me...love u all!!! :-* :D
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Agreed...
...I always try to learn from other musicians and it annoys me a little when I come across other musicians who act as if they're done learning...
...When I get together with my brother, we're studying...music is so complex and amazing...I'm never bored with it...
I'm serious, the lgm fam has really helped me out a burnch(int). Such a blessin you guys are to me...love u all!!! :-* :D
...i...totally...agree...with...you...
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...i...totally...agree...with...you...
>:( Are you mocking me?!!!...(yep... I still put it there even though it's not needed...)lol :D
I don't know why I do this...it's a habit...
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I would listen at home and write them myself...
...it's a trust issue for me...
If you can do that, then you are already doing what you're not trusting yourself to do. If you can listen and write sheet music, and read sheet music and play, then listening and playing is just eliminating the middle man. Already doing it but in steps, so try taking out the sheet music step, and you have the goal you're reaching for in your grasp.
a friend showed me that sometimes when what we ask God for doesnt come in the way we expect, we dont notice that he's already given it to us but we just have to recognize it.
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If you can do that, then you are already doing what you're not trusting yourself to do. If you can listen and write sheet music, and read sheet music and play, then listening and playing is just eliminating the middle man. Already doing it but in steps, so try taking out the sheet music step, and you have the goal you're reaching for in your grasp.
a friend showed me that sometimes when what we ask God for doesnt come in the way we expect, we dont notice that he's already given it to us but we just have to recognize it.
Goodness...you are so right especially the part in bold...
...that's confirmation to what has already been spoken to me for so long...
Nothing's wrong with using sheet music, but I have been using it as a safety net...too afraid to step out of my comfort zone...
...giving others advice that I'm not taking...
Thanks for that! :)
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Goodness...you are so right especially the part in bold...
...that's confirmation to what has already been spoken to me for so long...
Nothing's wrong with using sheet music, but I have been using it as a safety net...too afraid to step out of my comfort zone...
...giving others advice that I'm not taking...
Thanks for that! :)
your welcome. and nothings wrong with sheet music, i dont favor it because its not the best thing in a spontaneous atmosphere. some places have a mixed experience, but when you in that anything can happen at anytime, sheet music just goes out the window. so even if i have to learn off of sheet music (i have for concerts i played in) i commit to memory instead of trying to sight read because the song can go anywhere and now ive internalized it and can follow. and then i no longer need the sheet music.
ive been coming out of my comfort zone. playing keyboard is coming out of the comfort zone. im a bass player and i learned keyboard to really build my foundation and create my own songs, but found myself having to play for p&w on a sunday morning. talk about out of my comfort zone; felt like i was in another universe. it takes time though, dont try to do it all at once. do it in steps and its more likely to become a permanent part of you
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I understand the need to compare dvds with teachers because the common denominator is :THEY ARE BOTH LESSONS. Maybe different formats, as one is an audio and the other is a human being but the bottom line is that they are both lessons, and music lessons at that. So why we are comparing, because even though they are different, they are both the same as the intent of both is to deliver musical knowledge. So the end result IS THE SAME.