LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Gospel Guitar => Topic started by: Abe on June 05, 2009, 03:08:13 PM
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What is the difference between a guitar player and a musician who plays guitar?
1. A musician reads the language of all musicians. A guitar player reads tab.
2. A musician plays music that touches music lovers. A guitar player shows off for other guitar players.
3. A musician listens to good music no matter the instrumentation. A guitar player listens to guitar players.
4. A musician discusses how and why music touches the listener. A guitar player discusses strings, picks, amps and effects.
5. A musician understands how all parts of an ensemble fit together to create music. A guitar player just turns up so everyone can hear him.
6. A musician understands the beauty of a few well selected notes. A guitar player just wants to play fast.
7. A musician can find work. A guitar player sits at home playing fast and fuming because nobody ever calls him.
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I agree 100%...
a guitarist should be a musician that plays the guitar.
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A GUITAR PLAYER THINKS ONLY OF WHAT HE/SHE IS DOING
A MUSICIAN THAT PLAYS GUITAR THINKS ABOUT WHAT THE BAND IS DOING
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This is all pretty funny coming considering this site specializes in a gospel community that largely don't read "the language of all musicians".
In the old days, it was the piano players that could read music.
Don't count on THAT anymore. ;)
This explanation could explain why I never see a music stand in front of Jonathan Dubose. :D
And here's ANOTHER guitarist just sitting at home discussing effects and such:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dzgHFz-XoQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dzgHFz-XoQ)
It's SO sad. ;D
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PJ, jr. can flat out play the guitar :). He is a true professional.
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Flame me if you like...but as in all things, times change and things that were once the best and only way are no longer such...nothing could be truer of standard notation and guitar. I can't think of many things more poorly matched. Tab is a wonderful update on that not because it teaches you to cheat, but because it helps with neck position/fret, etc. now some may enjoy experimenting with sheet music, figuring out the best way to play....but I never feel like less of a musician because I can't sight read for guitar. (i can do ok on it with piano) I guarantee you if the same person who came up with sheet music were commissioned today to come up with a musical language for guitar...it would look NOTHING like standard notation.
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Flame me if you like...but as in all things, times change and things that were once the best and only way are no longer such...nothing could be truer of standard notation and guitar. I can't think of many things more poorly matched. Tab is a wonderful update on that not because it teaches you to cheat, but because it helps with neck position/fret, etc. now some may enjoy experimenting with sheet music, figuring out the best way to play....but I never feel like less of a musician because I can't sight read for guitar. (i can do ok on it with piano) I guarantee you if the same person who came up with sheet music were commissioned today to come up with a musical language for guitar...it would look NOTHING like standard notation.
Tabs for the guitar was a great idea.
However, to Abe's point, it is also great to know how to read standard notation, too. I have been caught in situations when I wish I was proficient at it.
I need to spend more time on getting a better grip on music theory.
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Wow! This sure fired up the troops this week.
While in the woodshed, add reading sheet music to your plan. To some it's easy; to others it's a challenge so stretch your skill. It could make the difference between getting the gig or not.
I first experienced this years ago when I attempted to audition for the guitar position for a (Peaches & Herb) concert on the campus of Florida State. The music director pulled out the sheet music and asked us to line up and get ready to play. :o That was a longest walk across town back to my dorm at the Florida A.M. campus. >:(
Stick with it and press on.
Abe 8)
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I'm a musician with guitar player tendencies ;).
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Tabs are good if your ear is not well tuned, but tab has gotten a well-deserved bad rep due to the amount of incorrect tab in the public domain and because it offers little in regards to timing references.
I know quite a few guitar players who can play according to tab, yet improvisation is a near impossibility.
Sheet music is good if the music to be played is to be played a specific way and none other. Knowing how to read notation can also open up the possibilities for many paying studio and live gigs.
That said, I know a lot of musicians who can play according to the notation, but improvisation is a near impossibility.
Coincidence? I think not. Our physical bodies are our most important musical asset. Our ears, our hands and feet, our mind/heart/soul/etc are all critical to our abilities as a guitar player or musician.
While I agree with a lot of Abe's points in the original post, it's important to remember that some people can start as a guitar player and develop into being a musician if they are motivated to do so.
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This thread reminds me of something I posted on another fourm a few years ago asking if you are a "guitar diva". I don't recall exactly what I wrote, but I'll try and remmber and post it here again for your entertainment.
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Music is a language; your audience determines your speech.
A child learns how to talk because of the need to communicate.
If you have a need to communicate with other musicians, you will try to learn that language. :)
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actually alot of times its the other way around. Alot of times the people that can read music and know all there theory can't really play what they feel, they usually sound stiff and untasteful. You don't have to read music to be a musician, and why even have a title of "Musician"? Is it suppose to make you special? Why not just be a person who expresses themseleves without titles? I've delt with alot of music majors that think just because they got a piece of paper that tells them they know there stuff they think there better than everyone else, but this doesn't mean that reading music isn't important, if you know how to read alot of doors can open up for you and there is alot of good material out there that you will be able to understand if you know how to read, but if you don't know how to read that doesn't make you any less, you still have a soul and you still have a spirit that you can express through an instrument.
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I consider a musician someone who can understand what is going on around him. Being a "musician" to me is not necessarily dependent on whether one can read music, or name the parts of his instrument, analyze wave forms, etc., but depending on whether he can comprehend and interpret what is happening at any given time in a musical situation.
That`s Deep 8)
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...you still have a soul and you still have a spirit that you can express through an instrument.
Yeah, and it might sound like 'playing in tongues', too... ;D
I do hear what you're saying, though. I claim that there are thee equally important components to playing music: the right notes, the right time and your own personal expression. Take away any one of those and it's usually not pleasing to listen to. Over-emphasize any one of those and it's usually not pleasing to listen to (except maybe for mom or aunt Bessie and deaf uncle Bo).
It's all about balance.
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By musician, is that a sight reader, or, someone who has the ability to sight read? Thinking back, some of my most memorable sessions were with musicians who were not readers, but who could follow a groove and key changes, but mainly, could pick up on rhythms and melodies not planned in advance and also adapt to the feeling of the congregation so the congregation and the band were more like one. To me, that was fun.
On the other hand, some of my most frustrating times have been sessions with a leader who could not tell us what key he wanted to play in, maybe didn't even know.
Gospel recordings cover all kinds of styles and levels, from classical, almost operatic, to stuff that sounds like an outright blues jam.
So, while I wish all gospel musicians would learn theory, take lessons, and all that, I would never look down on "keep it simple"
improvisational players, whether the world chooses to recognize their talents or not. All the players I know personally who tour nationally on a hired hand basis learned to sight read piano or violin when they were young.
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By musician, is that a sight reader, or, someone who has the ability to sight read? Thinking back, some of my most memorable sessions were with musicians who were not readers, but who could follow a groove and key changes, but mainly, could pick up on rhythms and melodies not planned in advance and also adapt to the feeling of the congregation so the congregation and the band were more like one. To me, that was fun.
On the other hand, some of my most frustrating times have been sessions with a leader who could not tell us what key he wanted to play in, maybe didn't even know.
Gospel recordings cover all kinds of styles and levels, from classical, almost operatic, to stuff that sounds like an outright blues jam.
So, while I wish all gospel musicians would learn theory, take lessons, and all that, I would never look down on "keep it simple"
improvisational players, whether the world chooses to recognize their talents or not. All the players I know personally who tour nationally on a hired hand basis learned to sight read piano or violin when they were young.
I agree,i like that.But,hope you got a football helment.
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In the same vein as people not knowing what key they are in, it is equally as frustrating to play with people that can't improvise at all.
I used to play with a keyboard player that couldn't do a 2 chord vamp unless she could find it in a book lol.
I don't understand that.
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"I agree,i like that.But,hope you got a football helment."
Yeah, ubc, I got the armor on. I started catching it from music teachers when I was in the 6th grade, for making sounds that "were not written on the paper." And, I mean, in the 1950's some serious scolding, no joke.
Take Amazing Grace. I key of Dmaj, one way to play it would be:
one, two, A (a) / maz (d) ing (e) / grace (f#) how (e) /
sweet (d) the (b) / sound (a) that (a) / saved (d) a (e) /
wretch (f#) like (g) / me (a)
If we play it in 3/4 alternating half notes with whole notes,
that's eight bars, I think, with a chord change to Gmaj on
"sweet the" and back to Dmaj on "sound," resolving with a
chord change to Amaj on "me," which is held until the round
starts again, with the "I (a) once was lost"
A jazz player would say the melody starts 5 - 1 - 4 - 3
referring to the positions of the notes in the Dmaj scale,
meaning, the first note, the "a" in "a-maz-ing," which happens
to be an A note, is the 5 note on the scale, and also the
top of the Dmaj chord, DF#A.
As soon as we start seeing things like this and start thinking
a little differently about it, we start to move away from
music being a matter of seeing the note on the paper and
playing it at the right time.
Note that we change key to Gmaj for "sweet the" which is a
D note B note combination, the 5 and the 3 of the G scale,
or, the top and middle of the G chord, which is GBD.
I might be saying that music theory comes into play
as much as sight reading, which can become mechanical
if you don't watch it.
UBC, when you play or sing, I want to hear "you" playing
or singing. Agreed, not everyone feels this way.
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"I agree,i like that.But,hope you got a football helment."
Yeah, ubc, I got the armor on. I started catching it from music teachers when I was in the 6th grade, for making sounds that "were not written on the paper." And, I mean, in the 1950's some serious scolding, no joke.
Take Amazing Grace. I key of Dmaj, one way to play it would be:
one, two, A (a) / maz (d) ing (e) / grace (f#) how (e) /
sweet (d) the (b) / sound (a) that (a) / saved (d) a (e) /
wretch (f#) like (g) / me (a)
If we play it in 3/4 alternating half notes with whole notes,
that's eight bars, I think, with a chord change to Gmaj on
"sweet the" and back to Dmaj on "sound," resolving with a
chord change to Amaj on "me," which is held until the round
starts again, with the "I (a) once was lost"
A jazz player would say the melody starts 5 - 1 - 4 - 3
referring to the positions of the notes in the Dmaj scale,
meaning, the first note, the "a" in "a-maz-ing," which happens
to be an A note, is the 5 note on the scale, and also the
top of the Dmaj chord, DF#A.
As soon as we start seeing things like this and start thinking
a little differently about it, we start to move away from
music being a matter of seeing the note on the paper and
playing it at the right time.
Note that we change key to Gmaj for "sweet the" which is a
D note B note combination, the 5 and the 3 of the G scale,
or, the top and middle of the G chord, which is GBD.
I might be saying that music theory comes into play
as much as sight reading, which can become mechanical
if you don't watch it.
UBC, when you play or sing, I want to hear "you" playing
or singing. Agreed, not everyone feels this way.
That`s deep.I feel you 8)
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It could be seen as deep, ubc, but it also may be considered to be just another way of looking at the thing. The position of the note on the scale is seen to be as important as the note itself. One thing it allows is more flexibility playing in a variety of keys. I am no expert, but I concentrate on things like this more than trying to get good at sight reading. I also don't count on music to make a living.
Having the sheet music or lead sheet on the stand in front is a huge help. The first thing I did when I got serious was to learn the major modes and the positions of the triads and their inversions. Especially what I could hear after being able to move around those chord voices got me excited and eager for more knowledge. It really helps with call and response phrases, which are so important in popular gospel.
Learning the triads automatically teaches the root-3-5 fret positions in all keys, up and down the neck.
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It could be seen as deep, ubc, but it also may be considered to be just another way of looking at the thing. The position of the note on the scale is seen to be as important as the note itself. One thing it allows is more flexibility playing in a variety of keys. I am no expert, but I concentrate on things like this more than trying to get good at sight reading. I also don't count on music to make a living.
Having the sheet music or lead sheet on the stand in front is a huge help. The first thing I did when I got serious was to learn the major modes and the positions of the triads and their inversions. Especially what I could hear after being able to move around those chord voices got me excited and eager for more knowledge. It really helps with call and response phrases, which are so important in popular gospel.
Learning the triads automatically teaches the root-3-5 fret positions in all keys, up and down the neck.
Cool,maybe deep is not word.What about very HELPFUL.Interesting brother. 8)
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Thanks for reading and commenting, UBC. The question of this thread, the difference between a guitar player and a musician, is one of the big ones. One of the jazz greats, I think it was Dizzy Gillespie, was asked,
"Have you taken music lessons?" He said, "Sure, Man, I've taken lessons. But not enough to hurt my playing." ;D
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Thanks for reading and commenting, UBC. The question of this thread, the difference between a guitar player and a musician, is one of the big ones. One of the jazz greats, I think it was Dizzy Gillespie, was asked,
"Have you taken music lessons?" He said, "Sure, Man, I've taken lessons. But not enough to hurt my playing." ;D
That was a cool answer.... 8)
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Well I agree with alot that has been said here already and from personal experience here is my 2cents worth...
I started playing the piano but i quickly realised that i was going nowhere fast. I can still remember theory being like algebra! And i hated it!! I sucked at learning to read music theory just like i sucked at algebra! Today I am a senior manager (without algebra) and i play three instruments (without theory). Yes theory is important but when the Spirit of God takes over in a service, improvising is key and that comes from musicality.(if that is a word!) Anyway point is its pointless being able READ a language but when someone SAYS something not in the book you are lost... same goes for music! just my experience... take it leave it your choice!
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Theory is, well- THEORY!
It's WHY something was played a certain way.
It lends itself to the old adage ' which came first, the chicken or the egg?'
In this case 'music' came first.
I was lucky enough to have a professor who stressed learning by and developing your ear. Reading and "hearing" should go hand in hand.
I try to give my own private students as much ear training as possible.
Learning everything by ear allows you to have a more "personal" relationship with what your playing.
You start thinking in terms of color and shade and feeling, as opposed to "which" scale.
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Theory is, well- THEORY!
It's WHY something was played a certain way.
It lends itself to the old adage ' which came first, the chicken or the egg?'
In this case 'music' came first.
I was lucky enough to have a professor who stressed learning by and developing your ear. Reading and "hearing" should go hand in hand.
I try to give my own private students as much ear training as possible.
Learning everything by ear allows you to have a more "personal" relationship with what your playing.
You start thinking in terms of color and shade and feeling, as opposed to "which" scale.
i actually think of scales in colors/shades/moods...
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Right!
You've internalized them enough to see them as shades and colors.
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Right!
You've internalized them enough to see them as shades and colors.
that's why i think it's so important to know them...not to be confined by them, but to have the tools at your disposal. like when i hear a vamp that is i-IV (ie Am7-D9), i know immediately it's a Dorian groove. Jazzier, bluesier minor groove. Dorian/pentatonic/blues scale is perfect...the Dominant IV chord automatically lets me know the natural minor/aeolian scale is a no-no. Knowing it's Dorian doesn't amke me run up and down the scale...it sets the comfort zone i can play in. i just think that knowledge is invaluable.
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that's why i think it's so important to know them...not to be confined by them, but to have the tools at your disposal. like when i hear a vamp that is i-IV (ie Am7-D9), i know immediately it's a Dorian groove. Jazzier, bluesier minor groove. Dorian/pentatonic/blues scale is perfect...the Dominant IV chord automatically lets me know the natural minor/aeolian scale is a no-no. Knowing it's Dorian doesn't make me run up and down the scale...it sets the comfort zone i can play in. i just think that knowledge is invaluable.
A-MEN!
8)
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What is the difference between a guitar player and a musician who plays guitar?
1. A musician reads the language of all musicians. A guitar player reads tab.
2. A musician plays music that touches music lovers. A guitar player shows off for other guitar players.
3. A musician listens to good music no matter the instrumentation. A guitar player listens to guitar players.
4. A musician discusses how and why music touches the listener. A guitar player discusses strings, picks, amps and effects.
5. A musician understands how all parts of an ensemble fit together to create music. A guitar player just turns up so everyone can hear him.
6. A musician understands the beauty of a few well selected notes. A guitar player just wants to play fast.
7. A musician can find work. A guitar player sits at home playing fast and fuming because nobody ever calls him.
generalization is not something I'm big on... so to put a different perspective...
1. An accomplished guitarist can read both tab and notation
2. A solo guitarist has the technical ability to wow and the musical sense to convey the 'message'.
3. A good guitar player listen to other music in order to understand how his/her guitar can accompany that particular style/song. A general musician might listen but would have the ability to execute what ideas are popping in their head.. ;)
4. A instrumentalist understands and knows the 'weapon' - the generalist goes into battle with a rusty bow, bent arrows and a prayer...
5. A generalist musician knows what good music should sound like but cannot play the necesesary guitar parts to make it so... ;D
6. A good guitarist can play ALL parts, scales, licks, fast or slow - a musician hides technical inability behind words like 'taste' 'feel' 'select'
7. A good guitarist will find work since most requirements are instrument specific and require proficiency greater than the song writer/vocalist/producer.... who's ever been in band with 'musicians' all talking about should be happening, but none having the chops to make it happen... ;D
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Theory is, well- THEORY!
It's WHY something was played a certain way.
It lends itself to the old adage ' which came first, the chicken or the egg?'
In this case 'music' came first.
I was lucky enough to have a professor who stressed learning by and developing your ear. Reading and "hearing" should go hand in hand.
I try to give my own private students as much ear training as possible.
Learning everything by ear allows you to have a more "personal" relationship with what your playing.
You start thinking in terms of color and shade and feeling, as opposed to "which" scale.
So what "ear training" are you giving them? The ear (brain) must be taught to recognise certain notes, phrases within context...hence we're back to scales and modes... you know theory.. :-\
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So what "ear training" are you giving them? The ear (brain) must be taught to recognise certain notes, phrases within context...hence we're back to scales and modes... you know theory.. :-\
Not sure really what you are getting at, or implying, but I did say that " reading and hearing" go hand in hand, and are not to be exclusive of eachother.
I didn't say to just learn by ear, and eschew reading. However, ear training is not stressed and is equally, if not more important.
So what "ear training" do I teach?
If you'd like to schedule a lesson, I'd be glad to show you...
But for starters, we work on chord recognition, interval recognition, chromatic and diatonic note location, etc...
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Gospel Ukelele? ;D
Hey: Good Man, Sketch.
Now, you proabably noticed that the 1st position
G scale begins to repeat on the D string, 6th
fret. You can either continue in that first position
and end up on the high E string, third fret, another G,
or, you can take off into the second position
by moving on up the neck. Got it? (Instead of going
G - open A in the first, go G - A up two frets
on the same string, and on up. Not pushing you,
man, just want to let you know about the repetitive
patterns that yield different "voices." As you
know, many layered "voices" from different sources
is what makes it sound good.