LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Organ Room => Topic started by: Travis T on June 20, 2009, 01:29:50 AM
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I came across this video and wanted to know what you all thought about what he said. Lets please be respectful because Prophet Simmons is deceased and also was an anointed man and mouthpiece of GOD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viM0SWBg4xI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viM0SWBg4xI)
3:02-3:55
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come on yall, i konw yall have some thoughts...
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So he gets mad at musicians for incorporating Jazz and RnB into their music, and 60 seconds later he curses in the pulpit (4:48). ::)
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come on yall, i konw yall have some thoughts...
nope.
ok heres one.
i dont agree.
im done.
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come on now i hate when prechers say stuff like that gospel always came from feel gospel has no foundation no begining theory now and back in classical times it was always takin' from the secular world even the hymns.Thats just ignorance :-\
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Interesting just interesting
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Gospel music started as blues and jazz with lyrics glorifying God...so no I don't agree.
Now if he means using popular secular licks and melodies in gospel music then I would say it depends on the song.
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Gospel music started as blues and jazz with lyrics glorifying God...so no I don't agree.
Now if he means using popular secular licks and melodies in gospel music then I would say it depends on the song.
gospel music has those influences but the rules dont apply gospel has no rules unlike jazz and blues they have foundation. you can try to teach thoery on gospel but you never will because you will end up explaining jazz,blues,classical,rock etc gospel is about feel why do you think gospel music evolves so fast and you can do all these chords and stuff in wierd places and stuff like that. No matter how much jazz and blues sound alike there is a box that seperates them. as far as gospel the only thing that seperates gospel from other styles are the words!
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I think I agreed with the first 30 seconds of this video but the rest I could not follow at all. I hesitate to say this, but I think I'll take my chances. Nothing turns me off more than when a preacher starts getting into race and this "we are an oppressed people" garbage. That just sickens me to no end. Yes, I realize that was a very bad time in our history and I think we are still seeing the effects of it even today, but it's time to stop using that as an excuse. Maybe I don't understand because I'm white...I don't know. And I'm sorry if what I've said offends anyone here. It wasn't my intention to do so.
Now to address the first 30 seconds of the video. I think I can totally agree here. I came out of a church that allowed the worship services to become so systematic, there just didn't seem to be much room for the spirit. We'd sing our 4 songs, take up an offering, maybe have one special, and then bring the preacher to the pulpit. We'd be dismissed and would be home within the hour. Only the best singers and musicians were used. When I questioned this, I was told to my face that no one else was qualified. There were other circumstances but ultimately I'd just had enough. I didn't know where to turn but I prayed and prayed about it. God led me to a church and I knew right away that was where he wanted me to go. I'm so glad I did. Things have been so much better. We do have somewhat of a program, but God always moves and a lot of times, the program goes out the window.
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o snap, you're white?
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o snap, you're white?
I guess the cat's outta the bag now! lol ;D
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I guess the cat's outta the bag now! lol ;D
;D :D
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i just figgerd u waz albino with dark hair.
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I agree with the preacher was saying...but i have some reservations about the jazz chords. however i can see how he feels that way. i've been in a service where the musician was using too many jazz chords in the time of worship. So many musicians today don't know how to tune into the spirit while they play and you can hear and feel this. You can learn jazz chords and incorporate them into gospel but u just gotta learn how to give it that gospel feel. I think this video just points out how some have been feeling in the church for some time now! We have singers and musicians full of the devil leading church service. And the church tolerates it because they are good at what they do. As a result there is no healing, no deliverance and test-a-lying. Let alone premeditated shouting and sudden jerks. You got to church and leave the same or worst than when you came.
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This man is preaching!!!!!
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Gospel music started as blues and jazz with lyrics glorifying God...so no I don't agree.
Now if he means using popular secular licks and melodies in gospel music then I would say it depends on the song.
I disagree with your statement. Gospel is not originally from jazz or R&B. It gets its roots from the old negro spirituals sung by slaves under oppression.
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I personally think all music is pure, as far as an emotion goes. Lyrics can pollute any song.Think real hard about what I'm saying. People can hear music and get their own individual interpretation of it. Once lyrics are added, it becomes a more localized thought at which the song is trying to promote.
Do we judge a song from the lyrical content added to it, whether old or new?
Do we dimiss certain songs and samples which we know derive from "secular" music?
I'm also sure that we all have heard a song that has notes from another song that we haven't heard yet.
I will not deny the fact that there is a limit, or some level of respect that we as musicians should have, but where should the line be drawn that establishes that?
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first of all...chords are universal.....the same chords that might be in a r&b song that is in a church song...and jazz is just freedom music...make musicians play outside of a sturctured box...its american music.....our music....just like the eurpoeans have classical......
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back in classical times it was always takin' from the secular world even the hymns.Thats just ignorance :-\
Amen. I believe people need to their research or even take a class. I think some people would be happy if gospel never evolved into what it is today and we still did gregorian chants.
Yet and still as musicians, we need to be mindfull of the way we play our music. I love the Jazz style and the R&B style but if it doesn't glorify God on purpose, I'm listening to it and I'd be insane to play it in a servic.
As big as God is, we need not to put in actual chord progressions from secular songs in our worship. I'm stupid enough to believe that he can give us a style lightyears better that what the world can produce on a good day. God told the people of israel to get rid of the leaven in their homes as a reminder of what God did for them. In the new testament Jesus told us that leaven represented sin. DON'T PUT THE WORLD IN YOUR WORSHIP AND PRAISE!! In the world not of it.
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we need not to put in actual chord progressions from secular songs in our worship.
there is no such thing as secular chords or progessions there just chords the same chords we play in gospel are the same chords we play in secular music
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there is no such thing as secular chords or progessions there just chords the same chords we play in gospel are the same chords we play in secular music
I STRONGLY AGREE!! If we begin trying to elminate chords because of their association to a musical style, there will not be anything for musicians to play in church or anywhere else.
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I STRONGLY AGREE!! If we begin trying to elminate chords because of their association to a musical style, there will not be anything for musicians to play in church or anywhere else.
agreed also
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That's not true; there are plenty of chords that are not associated with secular styles that you can use.
like what?
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That's not true; there are plenty of chords that are not associated with secular styles that you can use.
A chord is a chord. Eliminating what chords we can/cannot play because they're "associated with secular styles" is a slippery slope.
I don't agree with incorporating secular SONGS in shout music, talk music, etc, but a chord is a chord.
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All I know is that it's not about us:it's jesus.
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That's not true; there are plenty of chords that are not associated with secular styles that you can use.
if that's the case then we can't use basic major and minor triads ?/?
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Wassup LGM Fam been forever (phone's trippin, not a cpu dude lol) Anyway. I believe the scripture talks about our communication ministering grace to the hearer. We, as musicians like to play it 50 but let's keep it 100 and think about the times where the Holy Ghost/Spirit directs us to play or do this but we wind up conforming to what we think would sound good. We know when its him and to the opposite, when its us injectin a lil bit uh stank into it. I agree with most about the chords. Music is a chain/ cirlce of life type of thing but its the anointing that separates us from the rest. I believe if we function in love (obeying His Command/ments) we will know exactly how and what chords and songs to play. If we get back to the love of our craft, coupled with the unction, the church would run so much smoother. Lastly, like one of the comments said "I'm stupid enough to believe that God can give us a style (not chords) that is out of this world b/c we are out of this world. I refuse to settle. I still don't know how to use my sampler on my Triton after ten yrs lol. (Tryna learn now since I've had it for so long lol). God made music point blank the orgin of classical, rock and so on was from the beginning. Saith the Lor-Tuh:) he aint say nothin ya'll lol.
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Wow...I'm maddddd late on this one...
Gospel LYRICS came from the old days of slavery, singin with no music and all of that. BUT when the music came in it was blues and r&b influenced because that was like the only style of music we were exposed to so we had to make it do.
To this day the line is still blurred. Listen to a slower quartet song and what do you hear?? Blues, blues and more blues.
Scales have been around forever...so why should we be mad if someone else took basic knowledge of an instrument and applied it to their style first??? That's our fault, not the "worlds".
As far as taking "chords" that has to be one of the funniest things I've ever heard...wow...like a Gm7 wit a 9 is the EXACT same wether its in The Best is Yet to come or Feelin on ya Booty...I've met VERY few skilled musicians who are on that whole 'i can't listen to that devil music' tip...
Bottom line is you should want to be the best at what you do...I know preachers who do studies on Islam and Judaism in order to get a better understanding of the origins of Christianity
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Lol sorry..accidentally hit post
But what's the difference in a preacher studying to have a complete understanding and a musician doin that???
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Okay Okay I think we should clear some things up! Disclaimer: (all of these are going to be out of MY OPINION so I'm not saying if its wrong or right, its just what I THINK!!!) lol
But I think that Prophet Simmons is saying that "CHURCH" musicians shouldn't look to SECULAR sources to influence "CHURCH" music! Since "CHURCH" music should be influenced from GOD! I agree with that only to a certain degree!!!
I feel that MUSICIANS should try to be the BEST MUSICIAN that they can possibly be! No matter what KIND of musician you are (church musician, jazz musician, rock musician, classical musician, etc) You should try to STUDY and learn all types that way you can NATURALLY incorperate all of those different styles into your genera of playing!
Now, I think that "Playing jazz chords during worship service" I dont even with that to a certian degree! What some people may define as "JAZZ" other's may define as "The way I play" Please remember people, you wont like EVERYONE's style of playing; Furthermore, Everyone WONT hold dont a worship service as you think it should be played! So, just roll with it! (unless your over them, of course) lol
Holla
CATRON/TheReturn
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Okay Okay I think we should clear some things up! Disclaimer: (all of these are going to be out of MY OPINION so I'm not saying if its wrong or right, its just what I THINK!!!) lol
But I think that Prophet Simmons is saying that "CHURCH" musicians shouldn't look to SECULAR sources to influence "CHURCH" music! Since "CHURCH" music should be influenced from GOD! I agree with that only to a certain degree!!!
I feel that MUSICIANS should try to be the BEST MUSICIAN that they can possibly be! No matter what KIND of musician you are (church musician, jazz musician, rock musician, classical musician, etc) You should try to STUDY and learn all types that way you can NATURALLY incorperate all of those different styles into your genera of playing!
Now, I think that "Playing jazz chords during worship service" I dont even with that to a certian degree! What some people may define as "JAZZ" other's may define as "The way I play" Please remember people, you wont like EVERYONE's style of playing; Furthermore, Everyone WONT hold dont a worship service as you think it should be played! So, just roll with it! (unless your over them, of course) lol
Holla
CATRON/TheReturn
I totally agree...but my thing is why some preachers (NOT Prophet Simmons) are so heavy on it?? Like I've seen a whole bunch of messages/sermons with ideas and methods stolen from "secular" things like song lyrics or motivational speakers...
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I totally agree...but my thing is why some preachers (NOT Prophet Simmons) are so heavy on it?? Like I've seen a whole bunch of messages/sermons with ideas and methods stolen from "secular" things like song lyrics or motivational speakers...
Well I understand what you're saying but I thinkg some preachers are so heavy on it because they dont know any better! Because if the people that down incorporating secular music in church ACTUALLY studied music as a whole (including the church music that they are SOOOOO in love with) they would see that ALL music is a evolution from some other form of music!!! I dont care what anyone says, "Gospel Music" we not created just out of thin air!!! If it did, we all should still be singing hymns and spirituals!!! Honestly, they should be happy that we are taking some of the devils tools and using them agianst him!!!!!!! They were mad when Ray Charles started taking "gospel" music and started using it in a secular manner, why cant they be happy that we're doing the opposite now?!?!?!? But, maybe its just me that thinks like that!!! lol
Holla
CATRON/TheReturn
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They were mad when Ray Charles started taking "gospel" music and started using it in a secular manner, why cant they be happy that we're doing the opposite now?!?!?!? But, maybe its just me that thinks like that!!! lol
Holla
CATRON/TheReturn
No matter what you do there will be church folks criticizing you. I guess you cant win.
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You do, of course, know that many hymn melodies are derived from folk songs and irish drinking songs, right? Spirituals were originally basically African worship/war chants with Christianized words, but then gradually grew more sophisticated and incorporated the sweet melodic style of hymns and classical music? So you can't even fall back on that. "The Books of the American Negro Spirituals" by James Weldon Johnson is an awesome book. Everyone should read it. It even sheds some light on the topic that we're discussing.
Although different styles of music are related, they're still seperate styles. For example, Rock and Roll is derived from Country, Blues, and Gospel. Does that mean Rock and Roll IS Country Blues and Gospel? Krump dancing is derived from Shout dancing. Does that mean you want to be up in church krumpin'? Although styles of music evolve from each-other, there is a distinction, and there is a line to be crossed.
Personally, I was very annoyed to hear Janet Jackson's "What Have You done For Me Lately?" In the intro to Israel Houghton's "Tradin' My Sorrows" on the "New Season" album, but that's just me.
WOW!!!!! I didnt know that and I will have to do some research on that!!!! Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!
Holla
CATRON/TheReturn
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man, israel got NUFF stuff in his joints
in Who is like the lord ya got
-California Love/Tupac(which is really "woman to woman/Joe Croce)
-brass lines from "superstitious/stevie w.
-Rain Dance/Jeff Lorber(better known as "got a crush on you'lil kim"
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Lol about Israel.....(btw the actual Rain Dance is hot)
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Lol about Israel.....(btw the actual Rain Dance is hot)
Yeah man.
What song does Israel do that in?
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Yeah man.
What song does Israel do that in?
All of those examples are from the same song...its at the end of Who is Like the Lord
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all in one song? let me check it out.
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I'm late too....
1. There are no chords that are solely used in Gospel. There are probably chords that "haven't" been used, because Jazz is still more complex musically than Gospel. As jazz and blues has evolved, new musicians have also borrowed chords and placed them in new gospel music.
2. Karen Clark's "Sacrifice" is Brady Bunch. That one is CLASSIC!!!
3. The intro for Hezekiah Walker's "Come Home" is taken from Super Mario World. The SNES version, which may be a little old for some of you. ;D ;D
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I listened to the prophet's message and there's merit and truth to what he's saying. There are alot of musicians and singers who are performing in "self" and not operating within the "Spirit". As a musician, we are charged with helping to usher in and welcome the Spirit into worship. There's a lot of hotdogging with musicians. I stray into that area at times, but never during "worship"....just "praise".
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come on yall, i konw yall have some thoughts...
Why did you start a contreversial thread, and never return to give your opinion?
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I guess because I felt that opinoin lacked importance being that it has been stated numerous times by other LGMers.
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Prophet Simmons knew exactly what he was talking about. "God rest his soul". Read romans 12:1-2. There has to be a difference between the church and the world!!!!!!!!!
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IMO... If you are playing a song to set the attitude for worshiping THE LORD, the song's intro shouldn't have parts of these worldly songs. That person in the audience that needs the that spirit filled song to help lighten burdens or bring the presence of the Lord in the room, is totally thrown off. Either, trying to remember where he/she heard that tune before or why is the musician play that in church.
I'm not gonna sit here and act like i've never done it... I used to get a kick out of looking around the church to see which church folks instantly know what i'm playing. It backfired one day when I started playing the tune from "The Andy Griffin Show". My Dad (the pastor) embarrassed the hell outta me. (from that point I just tried to play tunes he didn't know... LOL!!)
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It backfired one day when I started playing the tune from "The Andy Griffin Show". My Dad (the pastor) embarrassed the hell outta me. (from that point I just tried to play tunes he didn't know... LOL!!)
:-X *giggle*
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I think it all plays into that people wanna hear the music that was sung and played when they first fell in love with gospel music or the music that was out when the were growing up! If you talk to an older person in the church about contempary music, most will frown at it, but what some are too ignorant to realize is that the music they call traditional gospel was considered contempary back then. For example when Andre Crouch came out he was bashed by the church now his music is considered traditional. It was the same for Walter Hawkins, now you can't go into without hearing at least one Walter Hawkins song. They were yesterday's Kirk Franklin. But what I don't agree with is musicians playing jazzy or any type of chords to exhault themselves. You don't have to play jazzy chords to be a distraction to the church service. You can play all traditional chords but if try to out play the singer or play over the past to the point all the attention is on you its just as bad to me as playing John Coltrane thoughout the whole service. Truth be told most jazz musicians came from the church as well as R&B. What makes Gospel is the lyrics and the spirit behind the music as a whole!
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I do not agree!! Thanks!!! Get out of the box!!! Michael Jackson "I'm Bad" used Mahalia Jacksons bass line in "Move on up a little higher!"
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Nothing turns me off more than when a preacher starts getting into race and this "we are an oppressed people" garbage. That just sickens me to no end. Yes, I realize that was a very bad time in our history and I think we are still seeing the effects of it even today, but it's time to stop using that as an excuse. Maybe I don't understand because I'm white...
This is the most disturbing thing that I have heard in a long time. This being a purposefully Christian site I will leave it at this....If you don't understand something because you are white..(your own words!)... maybe you should ask a question!...Maybe you should formulate the question that you have in your mind about the oppression of my people and ask it....then with the greatest of respect for the trials we have gone through and the people that have suffered and died.....carefully receive the answer. Try not to be sickened to no end when you hear the answer, try to hear it and try to feel it and try to simply receive it as someones reality.
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I understand that a lot of churches have let the "world influences" bring down or water down their mission and message from Christ. The churches mentioned in Revelation are an example and warning to us. I am new at playing Gospel Organ. I did not grow up in church but learned to play in the "clubs" at a young age. Jazz, Motown, soul, funk, old-school R&B, country, and rock the Lord used to teach me how to play. I play for Jesus now and I am a Christian. Most of the Gospel Organ I get to hear is from the internet and some Wheatworks DVDs that a friend loaned me. When I listen to these Brothers and Sisters in the Lord playin' I see a lot of "my background" in the "music" part of it. The difference is the message and whats coming from our hearts from our redeemed, cleansed, sanctified, delivered, healed, repentive, joyful, anointed, filled with the Holy Ghost, new creature in Christ that we have become because we have a Savior that loves us, died for us, rose for us, teaches us, cleanses us, advocates for us and enables us to praise, worship, shout, joyful tears, cry out, laugh, and love Him from our musical instruments and voices. I wish I would have grown up in church but I didn't. When I play in church I do not think of the secular songs I have played through the years I just play for Him. Although I have not played a "secular" gig in awhile. My last one was a Blues festival. I try to do all things for the Lord now including whatever my musical job is. I try to do my best for my church and pray for God's grace and for God to break down the barriers and strongholds for the people to enter in to worship and praise of our precious Saviour and that I can back up my Pastor when he preaches. I am running into different styles of organ from Deliverance style, Brooklyn style, COGIC style etc. It is like being in school but I love it. It is also quite humbling. Some of the Gospel organ players put a lot of the jazz cats to shame as far as skill level but the Lord calls all of us at different points in life. Moses had a Egyptian background but was chosen later in life for his calling to lead the chosen people. Please pray for us that have a "secular" background but are now in church. The last thing I want to do is offend anybody with the style and training that I have had but that is how the Lord trained me. Praise God Jesus is still training me. God bless everybody and sorry for the ramble. Love ya, Wayne
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I agree with the preacher was saying...but i have some reservations about the jazz chords. however i can see how he feels that way. i've been in a service where the musician was using too many jazz chords in the time of worship. So many musicians today don't know how to tune into the spirit while they play and you can hear and feel this. You can learn jazz chords and incorporate them into gospel but u just gotta learn how to give it that gospel feel. I think this video just points out how some have been feeling in the church for some time now! We have singers and musicians full of the devil leading church service. And the church tolerates it because they are good at what they do. As a result there is no healing, no deliverance and test-a-lying. Let alone premeditated shouting and sudden jerks. You got to church and leave the same or worst than when you came.
This is so true I must say we as minstrels really must seek God for his endowment for chords and music that is consistently fresh.
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muscians of the most high.....how r u.....first of all let me start of by saying nathan simmons is totally correct on everthing that he was saying.... but that doesnt mean you must stop playing the way u play because of what he said....it is apart of your style....and what we must understand is that we have tooken chords from R&B and jazz, BLUES this and that but we missed the big picture on what he was saying.....we focused on the the part where he insulted our way of playing and missed the part where he focused on us doin things out of the anointing .....us as musician have forgotten that all help comes from god and when we turn to other things that arnt gloryfing him to enhance our playing we have took time away from praying for chords,lick, runs ect....and we begin to mimick them instead of being original with our playing....we must understand that when we deal with god he shows us and minister to us things that no one else can think of or do....but when we begin to find another source of strength we begin to loose the anointing and everyone can do the same thing u can do ......and thats all he was trying to say....we as muscian, singers, preachers, are beginning to be about self and are starting to do more driving in demons rather than driving them out because of the things we are playing.....i mean its nice for a shed or sharing but when u in ministry thats a whole different story......being that satan was the cheif muscian in heaven we are more intact to his spirit thats y u must pray before u do anything and humble ourself....because he will make you think its ok to do the things we do in church or when we are in ministry......music is a gateway to someone soul and when u play or sing or minister u become incharge of all those souls....so when u in church and are playing chords to a deangelo or music soulchild for talk music remember what u put into someone soul will show through there flesh...and for those of u who said that music came from jazz and blues i dont want u to ever be deceived if its not glorifying god it is certainly unholy.....and gospel music was created because there was to music to glorify him...there was other music talking bout love, sex, partying, romance, so hymns and other gospel songs were created....and they used jazz and blues because they didn't know how to approach a sound for gospel.....little history lesson lol
god bless '
Chris age 20....pls comment....this is a serious thing
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why so deep? ?/?
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Psalm:33 Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.
2Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
3Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
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prophet simmons is right i am 16 and i had the chance to pla for him when i was younger