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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: kodacolor on December 28, 2009, 03:05:09 AM
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8ry old expelled from school for drawing a picture of Jesus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFVNNmPvY0w#ws)
>:(
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I knew you'd be posting this. :D
One thing I noticed about some people is that they believe that Jesus is the son of God, but cant accept that he was brutally beaten and crucified. :-\
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a portense of things to come;the government is reaching out to stand against CHRIST-Especially in schools!Funny how an 8 year old "challenged"child has a better grasp of reality than the educators.
Must have been some political heat for the mayor to jump in.
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Just like the devil thought crucifying Jesus was bringing an end to him, and actually ended up helping the plan of salvation... these people in their efforts to fight against Christ in schools, are actually helping spread the message of the cross and salvation. The more they talk about it, the more people are confronted with their own personal choice. That's a good thing.
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As an educator, I'd like to know what rule the child broke in order to be expelled in the first place.
Why did this go, immediately, to expulsion; why not simply a suspension (if an actual rule was in fact broken)?
::)
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As an educator, I'd like to know what rule the child broke in order to be expelled in the first place.
Why did this go, immediately, to expulsion; why not simply a suspension (if an actual rule was in fact broken)?
::)
EXACTLY!!! The school and its principal need to be taken to task for this one.
Usually, I land on the side of agreeing with government sponsored / tax dollar supported institutions remaining neutral on issues of religion, but this is not neutral.....this is pure ANTI.
Now, as for Rev. Justin......I think a lot of what he says after the newsclip finished suffers from some gaping flaws in logic. The thought that seeing a picture of Jesus on the cross would somehow send a message to non-believers that the sins of the world would need to be atoned is a huge leap. It takes understanding of the life of Christ and his reason for being among us to make the point. It won't happen with just one picture, so the thought that school officials conspired to prevent non-believers from seeing the picture because of what it would awaken in them is a bit of a stretch.
Also, his assertion that the only way to grow a church is to leave out the messages of the Cross, and that there are churches who do not teach to the lessons of the Cross had me shaking my head. I do not know of any Christian who has been a Christian for at least a year who does not understand the significance of the Cross. Between learnings at Christmas and especially Easter, the message of the Cross is clear.
But that's just me
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EXACTLY!!! The school and its principal need to be taken to task for this one.
Usually, I land on the side of agreeing with government sponsored / tax dollar supported institutions remaining neutral on issues of religion, but this is not neutral.....this is pure ANTI.
Now, as for Rev. Justin......I think a lot of what he says after the newsclip finished suffers from some gaping flaws in logic. The thought that seeing a picture of Jesus on the cross would somehow send a message to non-believers that the sins of the world would need to be atoned is a huge leap. It takes understanding of the life of Christ and his reason for being among us to make the point. It won't happen with just one picture, so the thought that school officials conspired to prevent non-believers from seeing the picture because of what it would awaken in them is a bit of a stretch.
Also, his assertion that the only way to grow a church is to leave out the messages of the Cross, and that there are churches who do not teach to the lessons of the Cross had me shaking my head. I do not know of any Christian who has been a Christian for at least a year who does not understand the significance of the Cross. Between learnings at Christmas and especially Easter, the message of the Cross is clear.
But that's just me
No, it's not. I'm definitely not 'feeling' the messenger. :-\
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No, it's not. I'm definitely not 'feeling' the messenger. :-\
When I see someone that's close to my age or younger saying they're a pastor/bishop/apostle, I mentally distance myself, not mostly because I'm questioning their calling, but moreso their maturity. I question whether they have the mental and spiritual maturity, and social support system, to stand up against the attacks that will come against them. They don't have to be "perfect" but I don't want to be too close to anyone with those titles who is shaky. Leading God's people is a serious thing, and I don't want to be involved in any fallouts/controversies.
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I'm sure Pastor Justin will mature sooner or late...hopefully sooner. he has the right message for the most part, but needs to work on how he delivers it. I also didn't like how he once again addressed the unbelievers in negative way; telling them to leave the page, instead of inviting them to Christ.
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As an educator, I'd like to know what rule the child broke in order to be expelled in the first place.
Why did this go, immediately, to expulsion; why not simply a suspension (if an actual rule was in fact broken)?
::)
This is so ridiculous. I question those in authority and their motives.
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Also, his assertion that the only way to grow a church is to leave out the messages of the Cross, and that there are churches who do not teach to the lessons of the Cross had me shaking my head. I do not know of any Christian who has been a Christian for at least a year who does not understand the significance of the Cross. Between learnings at Christmas and especially Easter, the message of the Cross is clear.
But that's just me
He wasn't saying that he believes that the cross should be left out in order to grow a church. He saying what people said to him. I wouldn't be surprised if there are churches that don't teach about the cross. There are threads on this site about how some churches don't really teach about salvation. (I'm sure I saw at least one thread or a few posts in a thread on that topic.)
I'm sure Pastor Justin will mature sooner or late...hopefully sooner. he has the right message for the most part, but needs to work on how he delivers it. I also didn't like how he once again addressed the unbelievers in negative way; telling them to leave the page, instead of inviting them to Christ.
I agree.
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When I see someone that's close to my age or younger saying they're a pastor/bishop/apostle, I mentally distance myself, not mostly because I'm questioning their calling, but moreso their maturity. I question whether they have the mental and spiritual maturity, and social support system, to stand up against the attacks that will come against them. They don't have to be "perfect" but I don't want to be too close to anyone with those titles who is shaky. Leading God's people is a serious thing, and I don't want to be involved in any fallouts/controversies.
+1
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He wasn't saying that he believes that the cross should be left out in order to grow a church. He saying what people said to him. I wouldn't be surprised if there are churches that don't teach about the cross. There are threads on this site about how some churches don't really teach about salvation. (I'm sure I saw at least one thread or a few posts in a thread on that topic.)...
I totally agree with the part in bold. The way I posted may have implied that I thought otherwise. Where I think his logic train jumps the track is in insinuating that some churches intentionally do not teach about the Cross because they think it will help their congregations grow by ignoring the need for absolution and abstaining from sin. Someone would have to show me an example of such a CHRISTIAN church that ignores the Cross. That's like conducting a fireman's training course for people who are afraid of heights.
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I'm sure Pastor Justin will mature sooner or late...hopefully sooner. he has the right message for the most part, but needs to work on how he delivers it. I also didn't like how he once again addressed the unbelievers in negative way; telling them to leave the page, instead of inviting them to Christ.
At first, I thought that I should not have posted my critiques, because of the point you make here (bold type). But the further he went, the more concerned I became. I am certainly impressed by his passion and his sincerity. The problem is, his logic. He is definitely trying to bring people to Christ, which is wonderful, especially for someone his age.
The problem (IMHO) is that if people come to the right place based on flawed reasoning, as soon as the flaws in reasoning are exposed, some of those who came in because of the charisma of the messenger will flee because the messenger will be exposed as being flawed. Christ doesn't need hype, PR, or cheerleading. Just exposure.
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At first, I thought that I should not have posted my critiques, because of the point you make here (bold type). But the further he went, the more concerned I became. I am certainly impressed by his passion and his sincerity. The problem is, his logic. He is definitely trying to bring people to Christ, which is wonderful, especially for someone his age.
The problem (IMHO) is that if people come to the right place based on flawed reasoning, as soon as the flaws in reasoning are exposed, some of those who came in because of the charisma of the messenger will flee because the messenger will be exposed as being flawed. Christ doesn't need hype, PR, or cheerleading. Just exposure.
*in my best ghetto*
Some of the realest stuff ever posted on LGM. Dat's real, son. 8)
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Well, if you want an example of a church that "ignores" the Cross, there's Lakewood, Joel Houston's church. I love their music, but how many times does Joel on his program actually go over how dirty we all are and how much we need Jesus's blood to cover us? People criticize him for that all the time. And his church is huge.
Yes, Pastor Justin's comment does seem like a leap in logic. But the fact is that people do indeed get offended by the Christian message of sin and the need for Saviour. Just because someone doesn't believe the message doesn't mean they don't have some exposure to it; and reacting to what they know, they can get offended. And that can be sparked by a picture, can't it?
~Ken
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That's Joel Osteen.
Carry on... ;)
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Well, if you want an example of a church that "ignores" the Cross, there's Lakewood, Joel Houston's church. I love their music, but how many times does Joel on his program actually go over how dirty we all are and how much we need Jesus's blood to cover us? People criticize him for that all the time. And his church is huge.
Yes, Pastor Justin's comment does seem like a leap in logic. But the fact is that people do indeed get offended by the Christian message of sin and the need for Saviour. Just because someone doesn't believe the message doesn't mean they don't have some exposure to it; and reacting to what they know, they can get offended. And that can be sparked by a picture, can't it?
~Ken
Ken,
Welcome to LGM!!! Talk about jumpin' in with both feet!! Well thought out post, my brother. Again, where Pastor Justin's logic train leaps off the track is the suggestion that people not familiar with Christ will read that message into the picture. If they are not familiar with Christ, they won't read anything into the picture. If they are familiar with Christ, then they are responsible for their own interpretation. If a CHRISTIAN is offended by the image of Christ on the Cross, then they don't have a solid foundation to call themselves Christian in the first place.
I'll go with your word on Joel Osteen and Lakewood. I'm only sorta familiar with prosperity preaching and am not / was not aware that they don't do anything relative to teaching on the crucifixion. I'm also not certain that this means they would be offended by the image.
Hope to see and hear a lot more of you here at LGM.
Peace,
James
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Well, if you want an example of a church that "ignores" the Cross, there's Lakewood, Joel Houston's church. I love their music, but how many times does Joel on his program actually go over how dirty we all are and how much we need Jesus's blood to cover us? People criticize him for that all the time. And his church is huge.
Yes, Pastor Justin's comment does seem like a leap in logic. But the fact is that people do indeed get offended by the Christian message of sin and the need for Saviour. Just because someone doesn't believe the message doesn't mean they don't have some exposure to it; and reacting to what they know, they can get offended. And that can be sparked by a picture, can't it?
~Ken
Welcome to LGM. :)
That's Joel Osteen.
Carry on... ;)
:D :D :D :D :D
Well, his church is in Houston. That counts for something, right? :-\ :D
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Well, if you want an example of a church that "ignores" the Cross, there's Lakewood, Joel Houston's church. I love their music, but how many times does Joel on his program actually go over how dirty we all are and how much we need Jesus's blood to cover us? People criticize him for that all the time. And his church is huge.
Yes, Pastor Justin's comment does seem like a leap in logic. But the fact is that people do indeed get offended by the Christian message of sin and the need for Saviour. Just because someone doesn't believe the message doesn't mean they don't have some exposure to it; and reacting to what they know, they can get offended. And that can be sparked by a picture, can't it?
~Ken
First of all, welcome to LGM.
Second of all, you're wrong and you're perpetuating hearsay. Joel Osteen does indeed talk about salvation through the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not only does he talk about it, but his wife and mother, who also get "airtime" on the 60-minute version of their broadcast also talk about it. I find that the only people who keep saying that about Lakewood are those who really don't watch the broadcast and heard someone else say it, so they pass it along as truth. I've personally heard Osteen talk about Jesus's birth, life, crucifixion, and resurrection with my own two ears.
I will admit that those who only watch the 30-minute program may not get to see a lot of that gospel teaching. I don't know because I usually catch the 60-minute one, which includes P&W, words from his mom or wife (sometimes both), his sermon, and a call to salvation and altar prayer. But either way, you can't determine the totality of a person's teaching based solely on what you see on TV (and surely not based on what you've heard other people say about what they saw or didn't see on TV).
*shrug*
And with that said, I guess I better go watch the video related to this thread. :-[ :D :D :D
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^^^I will say however, it does speak to the focus of your ministry... if your focus is Christ, should he not make the 30 minute cut as well? What's the purpose of preaching if you don't preach Jesus?
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I don't see anything wrong with this video. I think a more offensive message to a lot of people (who don't wanna live right) is holiness or hell rather than Jesus on the cross, but that's just my personal opinion.
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^^^I will say however, it does speak to the focus of your ministry... if your focus is Christ, should he not make the 30 minute cut as well? What's the purpose of preaching if you don't preach Jesus?
After I posted that, I realized that the 30-minute programs are clipped from the 60-minute programs. It's the same sermon, it just excludes P&W and the greetings from Victoria and/or Dodie, and the altar call. That means that if I've seen him mention it on the 60-minute program, I'm sure those who watch the ENTIRE 30-minute programs have seen it as well. The problem here is that Joel Osteen has been labeled and once you get labeled by the BOC, you can pretty much forget ever changing that reputation... unless you don sackcloth and ashes, publicly repent and stay out of the limelight for a year or two.
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I saw the video. I don't have anything to add IRT the video that hasn't already been said.
However...
When I see someone that's close to my age or younger saying they're a pastor/bishop/apostle, I mentally distance myself, not mostly because I'm questioning their calling, but moreso their maturity. I question whether they have the mental and spiritual maturity, and social support system, to stand up against the attacks that will come against them. They don't have to be "perfect" but I don't want to be too close to anyone with those titles who is shaky. Leading God's people is a serious thing, and I don't want to be involved in any fallouts/controversies.
I totally agree. But I just want to point out that he (or any young person sporting the "Pastor" title) could be a youth pastor at his church, which would mean he's subjected to the leadership of a (possibly) older, wiser man of God. This is, IMO, different. I'm only bringing this up because like an hour ago, I ran across a lady on FB that has been on the Prayer Call a few times. When I saw her picture, I said to my friend "THAT'S Pastor So-and-So??????" This lady was like 25, maybe.... I dunno. I just had expected her to be older. Then my friend told me that she's the youth pastor, not the senior pastor, and my whole thought process changed... lol.
But anyway, for the same reasons you mentioned, I still hesitate when I come across very young pastors and ESPECIALLY very young Apostles, Prophets, Bishops and Overseers and thangs...
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After I posted that, I realized that the 30-minute programs are clipped from the 60-minute programs. It's the same sermon, it just excludes P&W and the greetings from Victoria and/or Dodie, and the altar call. That means that if I've seen him mention it on the 60-minute program, I'm sure those who watch the ENTIRE 30-minute programs have seen it as well. The problem here is that Joel Osteen has been labeled and once you get labeled by the BOC, you can pretty much forget ever changing that reputation... unless you don sackcloth and ashes, publicly repent and stay out of the limelight for a year or two.
I gotta say, from watching his program first-hand on many occasions, that though he gives a lot of good tips for living and really challenges us to live up to our potential and represent well as believers, I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've heard him preach Jesus, whether directly or as a side bar or as a conclusion. That's an impression I got all on my own, because I don't generally watch news magazine show coverage of preachers. It's just too slanted for me. The agenda is definitely not in support of God's church and the Kingdom. I mean, it is what it is, but if I were to write an outline of his sermons, most of them would not include Jesus or salvation as a main point or a sub-point. Unless it's changed in the last year and a half, since I haven't watched in about that long.
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Well, if you want an example of a church that "ignores" the Cross, there's Lakewood, Joel Houston's church. I love their music, but how many times does Joel on his program actually go over how dirty we all are and how much we need Jesus's blood to cover us? People criticize him for that all the time. And his church is huge.
ok, I'll weigh in on this, cuz my church gets lumped in with this also....FREQUENTLY.
Are you a member of that church? Have you heard what happens in there EVERY TIME there is service? Are you there when the cameras aint on?
Or Are you creating a summary judgment based on a series of 30 minute moments in time?
Sure, we need Jesus blood to cover us, but if i recall my skripchaz right, theres a WHOOOOOOLE LOT of verses that are encouraging edifying, empowering of one's self, through Jesus Christ.
..Fearfully & wonderfully made....
..you are complete in Him...
..a royal priesthood..
...Thus saith the Lord: Ye are gods (GREAT, MIGHTY IN THE HEBREW, NOT DEITY)and children of the Most High....
Is it better to tell someone how wretched they are, or to tell them, through Christ, how magnificent they are(can be)?
Unless you're under that ministry, and you hear what the pastor is saying, all the time, every sermon, such statements are erroneous.
oh, Welcome by the way.
Now go get us some chiccen.
With biskits.
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I gotta say, from watching his program first-hand on many occasions, that though he gives a lot of good tips for living and really challenges us to live up to our potential and represent well as believers, I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've heard him preach Jesus, whether directly or as a side bar or as a conclusion. That's an impression I got all on my own, because I don't generally watch news magazine show coverage of preachers. It's just too slanted for me. The agenda is definitely not in support of God's church and the Kingdom. I mean, it is what it is, but if I were to write an outline of his sermons, most of them would not include Jesus or salvation as a main point or a sub-point. Unless it's changed in the last year and a half, since I haven't watched in about that long.
This.
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ok, I'll weigh in on this, cuz my church gets lumped in with this also....FREQUENTLY.
Are you a member of that church? Have you heard what happens in there EVERY TIME there is service? Are you there when the cameras aint on?
Or Are you creating a summary judgment based on a series of 30 minute moments in time?
Sure, we need Jesus blood to cover us, but if i recall my skripchaz right, theres a WHOOOOOOLE LOT of verses that are encouraging edifying, empowering of one's self, through Jesus Christ.
..Fearfully & wonderfully made....
..you are complete in Him...
..a royal priesthood..
...Thus saith the Lord: Ye are gods (GREAT, MIGHTY IN THE HEBREW, NOT DEITY)and children of the Most High....
Is it better to tell someone how wretched they are, or to tell them, through Christ, how magnificent they are(can be)?
Unless you're under that ministry, and you hear what the pastor is saying, all the time, every sermon, such statements are erroneous.
oh, Welcome by the way.
Now go get us some chiccen.
With biskits.
I agree. But honestly, that is the same argument that's been made for the several years that I've heard those accusations against Osteen (and Price and all the other so-called "fluff preachers").
I tend to fall back on I Corinthians 12, which reminds us that all parts of the body are needed, even those that seem "weak." As I've said countless times, I believe in seed-sowing. Even if Osteen isn't preaching hell, blood, tongues, and all that... he's teaching repentance and most importantly, he's teaching people to get in a good Bible-based church, and develop their own relationship with Jesus the Christ. If he does nothing else, he plants the seed.
But again:
Are you a member of that church? Have you heard what happens in there EVERY TIME there is service? Are you there when the cameras aint on?
Or Are you creating a summary judgment based on a series of 30 minute moments in time?...
Unless you're under that ministry, and you hear what the pastor is saying, all the time, every sermon, such statements are erroneous.
The bottom line is that the accusation here, verbatim, is that Osteen "ignores the Cross." He doesn't.
I gotta say, from watching his program first-hand on many occasions, that though he gives a lot of good tips for living and really challenges us to live up to our potential and represent well as believers, I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've heard him preach Jesus, whether directly or as a side bar or as a conclusion. That's an impression I got all on my own, because I don't generally watch news magazine show coverage of preachers. It's just too slanted for me. The agenda is definitely not in support of God's church and the Kingdom. I mean, it is what it is, but if I were to write an outline of his sermons, most of them would not include Jesus or salvation as a main point or a sub-point. Unless it's changed in the last year and a half, since I haven't watched in about that long.
He does talk about Jesus and about salvation (definitely salvation, which is offered with an explanation at the end of every broadcast). I guess it could be a matter of personal preference or something, I dunno... or maybe the times you watch, coincidentally, are the times he's not preaching about Jesus. I dunno. But I do know that he does a great deal more than just challenge us to live up to our potential. He challenges his members and the viewing audience to live according to the Word of God (which means live HOLY). He challenges people to respond to situations the way Jesus would. He uses Biblical (and modern-day) examples to illustrate how to choose Godly responses over fleshly or unGodly responses. He teaches about faith. He teaches about the love of Christ (which many preachers don't teach enough of), he teaches about integrity (which is a byproduct of the Holy Ghost)... it's not just prosperity, live your best life, name it and claim it, 3 steps to becoming a millionairre.
Honestly, I think criticisms could probably be made from both extremes and all across the spectrum. Some preachers (especially the older ones in my denomination) don't do anything but holler Jeeeeeeesus, the bloooooooooood, and the Cross!!!!!!!! But give you NO practical tools to live your every day life. At the same time, there are many who mention Jesus, the blood, or the Cross, but really offer no substance at all. And then, there are those (I guess) that don't mention either at all. Personally, I've never seen a preacher of the gospel who doesn't preach about Jesus, but I'm not doubting they're out there. My point is that I think every gift that exists within the body can be used to build the body of Christ, one way or another. Maybe some are weaker than others and contribute less, but as long as that seed is planted, I think God is glorified. And I reiterate Wolfie's point that we really don't know what goes on at Lakewood, and I'm reluctant to make an assumption based on the broadcast services I've seen.
Reminds me of the time I went to Greater Grace in Detroit. Mannnnn, I had been watching Bishop Ellis for decades... couldn't wait to get to the church. And when I got there... let's just say, I only went once.
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On second thought, this is probably fruitless. None of us are members of his church or considering membership (at least I don't think we are), so it really doesn't matter to any of us personally. We've had this convo before and always end in the same place. We're not changing each others' minds, so there's really no point in going back and forth about it.
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(and Price and all the other so-called "fluff preachers").
i get to hear(see) dude up close an personal, I can tell you it aint fluff.(not sayin you said that) It's very practical and sound.
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i get to hear(see) dude up close an personal, I can tell you it aint fluff.(not sayin you said that) It's very practical and sound.
Oh yeah I know. I called his name because you said that your church gets lumped in with this frequently, and I know he's your pastor (or overseer or head leader person... lol). I agree his teaching is sound. I haven't listened in years, but Lord KNOWS I grew up hearing it every single Sunday morning while getting ready for church. Sometimes I still wake up on Sundays singing "evidence dun dun dun dun evidence dun dun dun dun... dah dah dah dah evidence" (yeah, the "dah dah dah" is for the words I never could figure out... lol)
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On second thought, this is probably fruitless. None of us are members of his church or considering membership (at least I don't think we are), so it really doesn't matter to any of us personally. We've had this convo before and always end in the same place. We're not changing each others' minds, so there's really no point in going back and forth about it.
I was going to join, but now I'm not.
I came back to insert the smiley ---------> ;D :D
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Maybe some of the things mentioned are in fact subtle shifts AWAY from the Cross;focusing on man instead of CHRIST .For example,used to attend a church where the focus was "on community"(the byline for the Atlanta INTER faith movement).I see signs ALL the time for "KJV only",multi-cultural,relaxed "dress","relevant" preaching,"loving","distinctives"-all ways to "attract" from the same "pool" of believers.Fix your marriage,self,business-all important things;of course.
I quess there must be a "shortage" of lost people!!!!!!Unfortunately many if not most churches seem to have or convey a "cloistered mentality".I think this is what the pastor was alluding to;it's easier to "swap sheep" from field to field than birth pains of getting new ones.
If you watch the clips from Wofthe master CLOSLEY;you will see MANY people WITH a church background WHO do NOT understand what it means to be saved!!!!!How can this BE today?with ALL the media types;print,live,events,music etc. that is at our disposal?I think about the early disciples-without much;EXCEPT it was visible to the masses they had BEEN with JESUS!!!
Where is that testimony to others in our life?This fall,we spent some time talking with a lot of young people from all kinds of backgrounds.Probably less than 10%could articulate what CHRIST sacrifice meant.We need to do bette bros and sisters.
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A little off subject but, what exactly is a picture of Jesus? Does anyone know what he really looked like? And if not, why do people sit around drawing pictures of what they think someone looked like anyway? I've never seen my great, great, great, great grandmother and would never think to create a false image of her. Oh and by the way, if you cant tell where I'm going with this, my beef is from the biblical standpoint of drawing, engraving or building false heavenly images.
Exodus 20:4-6 is just one of many supporting scriptures.
And for the record, I dont think the kid should be disciplined (by the school) for drawing a so-called picture of Jesus. Would the kid have gotten suspended for drawing a picture of the greek god Zeus? The world may never know lolol :D
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I've never seen my great, great, great, great grandmother and would never think to create a false image of her.
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/iloled-pam.jpg)
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([url]http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/iloled-pam.jpg[/url])
Co-Sign. Leave it to Kev to bottom line that thang... LOL!