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Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: floaded27 on February 16, 2010, 11:09:32 AM
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back story:
playing for my jurisdictional choir was a blessing because it gave me the opportunity to play with some good musicians but its come with its set of problems. when i first started playing i was upset because i was the one playing at rehearsals (the main bass guy was in school so he couldnt make it to rehearsal) but he would take over and play every song the day of the musical. I was mad at him (and my brother was mad when i told him after he would always ask why i wasnt playing). But i found out what was really happening. It wasnt that he wanted to take over (of course he wanted to play, what musician doesnt at a musical?), rather he was told to play by the president of the jurisdictional music ministry because he was the better bass player. The Lord explained it to me better by reminding me of what happened to me playing for our church b-ball team years ago. Coming to every practice, hustling my butt off, following directions etc just to be sat on the bench to give time to dudes who didnt even show up to any practices (some just joined the team right before the game). But I couldnt be mad at the guys (they just wanna play). its the COACH's fault!!!! So i understand it was not his doing, and we're cool.
current situation:
So this year they wanted him to play keys, and the president was getting requests from others to play bass, and she asked him who to get because he was the main bass player. he said nobody, only me and the other guy should play bass because we been there (but the pres. didnt tell me all that, he did) So at the initial rehearsal, it was announce that I would be the main bass player, and the other backup would be the 2nd bass player, and the original bass player, who was moved to keys, would help us out with the material. And we were all cool with that.
So i go to rehearsal yesterday evening and some dude with a bass is sitting there. in my mind im like "who are u and why are u here" but i didnt say nothin. so im going to set up and the pres. comes over there talkin to him and i overhear the conversation. she is basically telling him that she called him in to learn the material so he can play for the musical and they gonna pay him. saying she wants a professional and all that stuff. so im heated, i didnt even want to hook my stuff up. why should i. so im just standing there and the vice pres. (he works directly with the musicians and also plays keys or organ on some of the songs) came to me and said "is everything ok" and i just told him "im just gonna keep it to myself" and i was about to say and then i said again "i'll just keep it to myself" and he looked at me and said "i know what ur thinking. we're on the same page. im gonna take care of it"
so in the meantime dude sees my GK MB2500 and starts askin me questions about it. im trying my best not to flip out on this dude, so i try to answer the questions as cordial as possible but also brief as possible. I KNOW its not his fault, he's just there because he was ASKED to be, but i still dont wanna say NOTHIN to this dude!! then she sees me standing there and asks am i gonna plug up my stuff, and im like in my head "why the *heck* should i" but i know thats not me, so i say yeah. Then dude asks to use my tuner. Im like dude is just askin for me to flip, just askin. So the first song starts and I start playing (im basic and pocket when playing so i dont do riffs every opportunity, but i guess to some people that just means i cant play.) so he asks me can he play because she wants him to learn this song. I am so ready to act like a 10-year old right now. but i just do the shoulder shrug w/ the "i dont know" like im clueless about what he's saying (y'all know that move. lol) so she looks over and says to me "let him play this song". im pissed but i just let him play.
So im sitting there ready to quit (mind you the other guy thats supposed to play took his bass and left, and i think he quit altogether). I was like i didnt wanna make a scene because im sure other people didnt understand and it'll look like once again a whiny musician didnt get his way or didnt get to play and is acting like a child. and i figured that because other people looked clueless about it or didnt even notice. But all of the musicians asked was i ok, because they knew what the deal was once they saw this new dude there.
im like this and i told the vp "i understand if y'all want the music department and all its activities to be great. and thats cool. but if you feel that im not good enough for that vision to happen, tell me that. i can be doing other things. i turned down people askin if i could play bass because i was workin with y'all. but dont tell me im going to be doing something and then get someone else". The VP told me he told her and the other lady about that, and that next rehearsal will be totally different. So i'll see what happens next rehearsal.
*modified word (no profanity on LGM*
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Put it like this, don't be used by anyone. If they wanted a "professional" to play, then he should have had his own equipment with him. When she asked you to allow him to play, you had every right to take your equipment down. I've done it before and don't care about doing it again. It's 2010, and I have a new mindset when it comes down to music and me playing for someone or groups. So to answer your question, you did neither the right thing nor wrong thing, imho. Let the president know where you stand and go from there. Don't sit back and let the VP speak for you.
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It sounds like you and the president have some issues that need to be discussed...go to her directly.
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Put it like this, don't be used by anyone. If they wanted a "professional" to play, then he should have had his own equipment with him. When she asked you to allow him to play, you had every right to take your equipment down. I've done it before and don't care about doing it again. It's 2010, and I have a new mindset when it comes down to music and me playing for someone or groups. So to answer your question, you did neither the right thing nor wrong thing, imho. Let the president know where you stand and go from there. Don't sit back and let the VP speak for you.
It sounds like you and the president have some issues that need to be discussed...go to her directly.
I agree.
I guess thats just part of being an up and coming musician. Almost everybody goes though something like this. I'm glad that you didn't flip out, because that would not have been good for you reputation.
I honestly wouldn't even wait until the next rehearsal to speak to the president, I would call her today and see whats going on.
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It sounds like you and the president have some issues that need to be discussed...go to her directly.
to be honest, i wouldnt even know what to say. i know she means well, but i dont think she fully understands how decisions like this affect the people involved. if someone was to do this spitefully, i'd know how to handle it, but these kinds of cases im really unsure how to handle things or what to say.
I agree.
I guess thats just part of being an up and coming musician. Almost everybody goes though something like this. I'm glad that you didn't flip out, because that would not have been good for you reputation.
I honestly wouldn't even wait until the next rehearsal to speak to the president, I would call her today and see whats going on.
and i'd rather see what happens next rehearsal since my equipment is still there. if things didnt work out, i'd rather not have to come back to pick up my stuff and be subject to questions and all the other stuff. i'd rather just cut things and be on my way.
the problem in church is that to most people ur ALWAYS "up and coming" UNLESS a) you make a name for yourself (which is next to impossible to do exclusively as a musician and NOT on the organ) or b) ur pops or ur moms is someone well known or some other relative
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and i'd rather see what happens next rehearsal since my equipment is still there. if things didnt work out, i'd rather not have to come back to pick up my stuff and be subject to questions and all the other stuff. i'd rather just cut things and be on my way.
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Why worry about questions and what others have to say? If that's your equipment, you may do as you please and have to answer to no one. I had to recently send an email to my pastor and assistant pastor about someone messing with my board (motif es7). I copied my band leader and asked him was I too harsh. He said I could have said it differently, but he said sometimes you have to get your point across. My email was just straight to the point, "no one is to touch my board without my permission." I don't see gray, I see black or white and as my stepfather says, "I call a spade a spade." I'm not going to beat around the bush. BTW, just tell the President how you feel. As the president and an adult, she should be open to how you feel about the situation, if not, that's not the position for her.
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Man I absolutely HATE stuff like this. I will say I have been on the other side of the fence. People ask you to come to a rehearsal and you show up and there is already a bass player there. So you are standing there with your gigbag looking like a class a dunce and people start saying oh let him play. Let me tell you it is one awkward situation. I try to do myself show myself friendly. Introduce myself "Hey man do you mind me playing this song?" Stuff like that. I am MOST certainly about to plug into someone elses rig without there permission esp if they are right there. I can tell you that if a pres or someone tried that foolishness with my rig my power and speakon cables would magically dissapear and so would I.
I am a firm believer there is a way to do things. I am not sure why non-musicians ei directors, choir presidents, pastors etc dont realize that most musicians don't deal with our fellow musicians like this and when they pull stuff like this they are creating unecessary and unmerited animosity between musicians. I am sure no pastor would appreciate if he was getting up to preach if his bishop walked in and took the podium and gave the message.
I'm not usre why people don't believe in sharing anymore. It's like there is these musicians and they HAVE to play or else the whole thing will fall apart. I try to make sure anytime I am at an event with other bassist to make sure and ask if anyone else wants to play.
Anyways I would suggest you talk to the other bassist and see where his head is. If he's cool tell him the situation and you can probably get some support from him when talking to the president. I know most musicians aren't for mistreatment of our fellow musicians. Now if they start talking about messing with his money you might be on your own.
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.... I am MOST certainly about to plug into someone elses rig without there permission esp if they are right there. I can tell you that if a pres or someone tried that foolishness with my rig my power and speakon cables would magically dissapear and so would I.
I am a firm believer there is a way to do things. I am not sure why non-musicians ei directors, choir presidents, pastors etc dont realize that most musicians don't deal with our fellow musicians like this and when they pull stuff like this they are creating unecessary and unmerited animosity between musicians. I am sure no pastor would appreciate if he was getting up to preach if his bishop walked in and took the podium and gave the message.
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My type of magician, oops I mean musician!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
You said something that is so true. Incidents like this cause animosity amongst musicians all because non-musicians have no clue of how to handle things from a musicians stand point. I have no problem, like you, sharing the stage or set with other musicians, as longs as we are all aware of this and egos don't get involved. I've been there, done that.
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why waite until the next rehearsal,if you do you may have sleepless nights worrying about this situation I went through this same thing years back...if she feels like your not good enough and wants another bass player, she needs to let you know ASAP so you won't waste your time..and the other dude needs to bring his own equipment.
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Hey floaded27, I just want to say... "I think you totally did the right thing!"... Even in your post you made statements, that show that God was working in the midst of the situation.
I am not trying to excuse the situation, in my opinion it probably could have been handled differently, on the part of those running the rehearsal. But on the outside looking in, I think God would be smiling about the way you handled the situation. Like you said, you could have thrown a temper tantrum, and lots of folks would say your were justified in doing so. But I believe God uses situations just like this to develop our Character.
I know it may not mean much, but I am proud of you Man of God! Keep suffering well, and he will reward you.
Peace.
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Why worry about questions and what others have to say? If that's your equipment, you may do as you please and have to answer to no one. I had to recently send an email to my pastor and assistant pastor about someone messing with my board (motif es7). I copied my band leader and asked him was I too harsh. He said I could have said it differently, but he said sometimes you have to get your point across. My email was just straight to the point, "no one is to touch my board without my permission." I don't see gray, I see black or white and as my stepfather says, "I call a spade a spade." I'm not going to beat around the bush. BTW, just tell the President how you feel. As the president and an adult, she should be open to how you feel about the situation, if not, that's not the position for her.
its not questions about the equipment. i do what i want with it for sure. The questions i mean was people i know and are cool with asking me why im quitting and trying to convince me to stay aboard should i choose to leave.
And they do cause animosity between musicians. but so does the sense of entitlement that other musicians have as well. so when certain people just pop up in rehearsal, they just have to play (almost exclusively organists and keyboardists on this side). so while people be tellin me to stand up, they take the same crap, just a different shade of brown. Im like this, if im playin ball on the courts and Lebron James shows up, he need to call "next" if he wanna play. But i just dont know where the line is of getting this point across and being representative of a saved respectful man. (cause the things in my head i wanna say or do sometimes be far from Christ-like and i dont want to make God ashamed of me and my behavior, because i can come off quite harsh) and thats my biggest concern above all else.
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But i just dont know where the line is of getting this point across and being representative of a saved respectful man. (cause the things in my head i wanna say or do sometimes be far from Christ-like and i dont want to make God ashamed of me and my behavior, because i can come off quite harsh) and thats my biggest concern above all else.
I once heard someone say, you can't stop birds from flying over head, but you can stop them from making a nest. If we are all truthful, we could tell you that Crazy thoughts are always popping into our heads, sometimes people don't even have to be bothering me and crazy stuff jumps right in.
We have to remember we have a Carnal nature that fights against God and the things of God. But the fact that you endured every temptation that came your way that day says, that says you are blessed, your behavoir isn't the thoughts that hit your mind. You behavior is how you act despite the things that hit your mind.
James 1:12 "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him" I find it ironic that it says, he that endures tempation, is blessed, not him that doesn't face it at all... Stay blessed br'er!
- from another over analytical brother :)
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its not questions about the equipment. i do what i want with it for sure. The questions i mean was people i know and are cool with asking me why im quitting and trying to convince me to stay aboard should i choose to leave.
And they do cause animosity between musicians. but so does the sense of entitlement that other musicians have as well. so when certain people just pop up in rehearsal, they just have to play (almost exclusively organists and keyboardists on this side). so while people be tellin me to stand up, they take the same crap, just a different shade of brown. Im like this, if im playin ball on the courts and Lebron James shows up, he need to call "next" if he wanna play. But i just dont know where the line is of getting this point across and being representative of a saved respectful man. (cause the things in my head i wanna say or do sometimes be far from Christ-like and i dont want to make God ashamed of me and my behavior, because i can come off quite harsh) and thats my biggest concern above all else.
If it were me, I would remind her that she told me that I was moving to the primary bass position and ask her why did she feel the need to bring in another bass player. If she says she would rather have him, I would pack my equipment and move on to other opportunities. Remember, your gift will make room for you. There are other opportunities for your gifts to be used and appreciated. Don't worry about what other people say/think. Just don't kill your witness in the process of making your move.
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doc i would've packed up and left in the middle of rehearsal. They didn't show you ANY respect.
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Brother Bass Player,
I would handle it as soon as possible because bad feelings tend to brew like over time. It may blow out of proportion. But also if you let go once it will happen again.
James
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I've been though this type of stuff for years. lol I try not to let it get to me. That's why I pray alot. I let the Spirit set me apart from the rest. Not sure if I would have let dude play through my stuff or not but I would make sure they know I have other stuff to do if I'm not playing. I would just tell them next time I won't be there. Don't put all your eggs in one basket it a true saying. I've had to play at my church more recently but if the other dude comes back I will be back on course the next week. :D Resting, practicing at home, or studying. Last night we had limited time and the directress kept stopping discussing with the altos about their part instead of singing the part with them until they got it. I kept playing most of the time as if we ain't wasting no time tonight. lol At one point I did a Johnny Costa move like going down the keys and slowing down as if everything was coming to a stop. People started laughing and she even laugh. I think she got the picture. lol
It's best to speak your peace then take action. I used to ne the guy that got over looked. Even now I still get over looked. Some how God makes it where they always have to come back to me. Many people actually prefer me playing than the other musician but some of the leaders prefer him over me.
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You are much nicer than me. I would not have even came back after last year.
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First of all, my compliments to my LGM family for giving good counsel. :)
floaded, I think you have found the source of the problem. It is certainly not with the other bass player, but rather with the president. Pray, take a deep breath, and discuss your concerns with her. Then pray again before you decide what course of action to take next. As for the people who might question your decision, a smile and an "I've prayed about it and I feel that it's best that I leave." should satisfy even the most persistent folks.
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Been in your shoes many times in my early years of playing in the church, i'm talking situations just like yours. Now when someone wants me to come play at their church,(which i do not do much anymore.... getting too old for this lol) i always ask two main questions 1) do you have a bassist, if the answer is yes then 2) why dont you use him. Because i will not tresspass on another bassist property. It is very UNCOOL to do that to someone especially if that musician doesnt even know someone else is showing up to play. The last few times i thought i might walk into a situation likes this, i enter the church without my bass and chatted with the other musicians first. if something wasn't right i lefted.
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So you left to right the situation. Wacawacawacah :D
All in all I would pray. If God said it's cool to leave I would if he didn't I would definitely talk to the persons involved to make sure they know I don't appreciate that and if it happened again I would take actions. Sometimes you have to put your foot down. If they don't want you to play after that you can do the other stuff you need to do and be available if they need you.
God always exposes people who try to hide stuff I've seen it time and time over. Even it was recently exposed to me the amount of money they were paying the other musician. I actually tried to go to the other musician that I felt he always played over me. He basically denied it said I don't play aggressive enough. lol this was months ago. I really felt he was intimidated by me and just had no respect for me.
I prayed to the Lord recently and said Lord I don't think this guy respects me as a musician prove me if I'm wrong and I will repent. lol A little bold but I believe it was the Lord showing me that he didn't respect me, but the bible says he will make your enemies your footstool. All you have to do is let God fight for you and stay on your knees. I'm getting his money now temporarily. lol I started not to take it but prayed first. I believe God was blessing me because I've had over $1500 in bills last month. I find it amusing at times like David and Saul. Saul kept trying to kill David missed the fact that God's hand was on David.
One of the worst things you can do is try to mess with a musician that has a heart for God. Many of us have instruments but some of us are just playing. :D
Say that again...
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One of the worst things you can do is try to mess with a musician that has a heart for God. Many of us have instruments but some of us are just playing. :D
Very Deep!
;)
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Put it like this, don't be used by anyone. If they wanted a "professional" to play, then he should have had his own equipment with him. When she asked you to allow him to play, you had every right to take your equipment down. I've done it before and don't care about doing it again. It's 2010, and I have a new mindset when it comes down to music and me playing for someone or groups. So to answer your question, you did neither the right thing nor wrong thing, imho. Let the president know where you stand and go from there. Don't sit back and let the VP speak for you.
Good points...I've shown up to a rehearsal and there was another bass player (that I knew nothing about). It had nothing to do with skill (most of the time it doesn't)...it was just folk and their ego tripping and power struggle issues. In my case, I had a personal conversation with the other bassist and explained to him that I was the bass player and he had no idea he was being used. Then I left and got the situation straight with the proper authorities.
Trust me professionalism is more than just being able to play well. Don't let others define your professionalism. It involves, business sense, effective communication, having the proper resources, and when that's said and done, performance.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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I understand an individual's need for power and money and yet it still baffles me when I see selfish people fighting over position, power, and prestige. If God doesn't anoint you for a position you're just warming a seat for someone else. :D
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In my case, I had a personal conversation with the other bassist and explained to him that I was the bass player and he had no idea he was being used. Then I left and got the situation straight with the proper authorities.
I like the way you handled that. :)
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You have a really difficult situation because it appears that whatever action you decide to take, someone will be able to say, "you could have handled it differently". If I were in your situation, I know what I would like to do. However, I am going to try to advise you on what you should do.
As much as I would like to think otherwise, you are participating in a semi-cooperative, competitive environment. While each person is motivated to play well with others (literally and figuratively), each person also has consider that their "seat" is granted to them by the authority of another. Therefore, each person has to retain the "right" to be first chair based on their relationship with and the perception of their value to the leader. In your case, the president, by her actions, is clearly telling you that she does not think you have earned the right to first chair. So unless you believe she is open to reconsidering her perception of your playing ability, it is not likely that she will change her mind of her own accord.
So your next decision is whether you can live with this until a change comes. If you are certain that her perception of your skill can be changed by determination and hard work, then it may be worth sticking it out, especially if you are getting a lot of benefits out of rehearsals with your group of musicians. However, if she is dead set against you playing first chair, regardless of your skill level, then you may want to move on to greener pastures. You may be tempted to believe that staying is the right thing to do and is best course of action to preserve your "witness" but keep in mind that PEOPLE CHANGE JOBS ALL THE TIME. If you are unhappy in your place of work, do you stick it out or do you look for a better employment opportunity?
We tend to look at activities related to the church as though we have to stay in the same part of the vineyard until we are "graveyard" dead. But each week, there are thousands of fellowships that desire to have commited musicians who will play for the "love of the game." If you choose to stay in your current situation, it's because you think there is something there that is worth overcoming some adversity to achieve. However, if that is not the case, respectly resign and seek another opportunity. One of the world's largest evangelistic movements got started because its leader didn't fit in in the mission he tried to join. One day, he was told that he didn't fit. He agreed and and left to start Operation Mobilization.
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so i get a text message today saying that a meeting was held with the president and they decided that they werent gonna use that guy as one of the bass players, but Dwayne Wright will be playing for the musical. So im supposed to be ok because its Dwayne Wright!!?? Isnt this still the same situation??? I dont care who name u fill in the blank with, it still isnt right. And if you make me main bass player shouldnt u even ask am I ok with that? It was bad enough when I didnt get to play when they invited the Clark Sisters, but was made to come on stage and sit there for all 3 songs our choir sang. But i took one to the jaw cause I was the backup. But you make me the main player and im subject to the same thing?
So even if i said ok, i'll make an exception because its him (as if!!), here would be the deal. Either
1. he would come to rehearsal and play every song, leaving me with no practice time with the rest of the band, but actually just learning songs on my own (i could do that at home...wait, i do. sometimes even upload videos here on LGM)
OR
2. he wouldnt show up at rehearsal at all, leaving me playing all the songs with the band in rehearsal but dont get to play during the musical, which straight up aint fair!!
so its a lose-lose situation, so i'm going in monday to pick up my equipment and resigning as bass player for the jurisdiction. i may even ask for my $10 back for the bus for the out of town engagement that the are going to.
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Communication - letting you know via text message IMO was not cool.
Looks to me like the Powers That Be want to keep you on 'second string' - like a benchwarmer on a football team, sent in to play when the starting player can't make it. Only you can decide if you're willing to do that.
...Seems you are not the only one who could have 'handled it better".....
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That was very disrespectful of them. I think you did the right thing.
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I would be very angry but remember it isn't DW's fault!
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It is understandable where you are coming from. You have a toe hold on a enviable posittion. Hope springs eternal, and you believe (wish) that if you hold on, success will come to you to the extent that you will be fully accepted and respected as the go to bassist in all situations for your organization. So even in the face of clearly unjustifiable behavior on the part of the powers that be, you remain. Relax. Many have been there.
Only you can decide. Loyalty, trust, respect is a door that must swing two ways, though. It didn't seem to be swinging for you. Would it really change?
Best wishes for you whatever your decision.
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Few points:
1. its very disrespectful to recieve a text about a decision.
2. remember, its not DW's fault
3. last but not least, man up next time and speak up on how you feel initially. Don't rant about your feelings up here and never say anything to the president.
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I know its not his fault. I just hate the fact that its assumed that the situation is ok because its him. There was nothing wrong with the other guy, except for the fact that he shouldnt have been called in in the first place. Like i said before its certain people they make all these exceptions for. Im the type of person that likes to play for a coach that says "if you dont come to practice you dont play in the game" and that applies to everyone, from the star player down to the dude that rides the bench the whole game. I can play for a team like that, whether i get in the game or not.
i didnt get a chance to say anything. it was best i didnt say anything when i felt how i felt at the moment, because what i wanted to do and say would have been very inappropriate and would have shamed me and shamed God. Everybody cant keep a cool head and take action. For some, keeping a cool head is just keeping ur mouth shut. So it isnt about manning up. I hear what everyone say they wouldve done, but none of you are ME, you are yourselves, and even many that wouldve done fairly the same thing, you would have done it in a different manner.
Im an old school idealist, living in a fantasy world that somehow places some value on dedication, reliability and dependability.
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so in the meantime dude sees my GK MB2 So the first song starts and I start playing (im basic and pocket when playing so i dont do riffs every opportunity, but i guess to some people that just means i cant play.) so he asks me can he play because she wants him to learn this song.
I've been thinking, do you think that if you 'played out' a little more you would be in this situation? Maybe the bass riffs and runs was the sound they were going for...it was a musical, not a service. Were the other musicians in that group playing out or where they playing pocket?
just a thought, nothing personal.
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I've been thinking, do you think that if you 'played out' a little more you would be in this situation? Maybe the bass riffs and runs was the sound they were going for...it was a musical, not a service. Were the other musicians in that group playing out or where they playing pocket?
when he started playing the keyboard player told him "yo, stay in the pocket. you doin TOO much." so maybe that answers that question. but i dont know whats gonna be the case from now on.
but i get where ur coming from. I do what i can do, but only if im familiar with the material (which was another issue i had and wonder if that was determining the perception of my ability). but if im trying to learn the song, why am i going all out? That happens to many people, and it happened to dude in rehearsal. You tryin to do all this fancy stuff and right in the middle of it, the whole song goes somewhere else and u left out there. Why? because u dont know the song, but rather than LISTEN and try to familiarize yourself with the changes and direction of the song, you choose to do otherwise. And because i dont get the material i tend to find myself spending the whole rehearsal learning song after song, instead of coming there knowing already.
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Floaded27,
I feel for ya, buddy. The ONLY thing I would have done differently than you did in this situation is at that first rehearsal I would have sat down with the VP and the Pres IMMEDIATELY after rehearsal and had everything laid out. It would have been "Am I playing in the musical or not? Am I sharing time with the new guy or is the new guy THE guy?"
What I did from that point on would have depended on their answer.
As for the text messaging thing.....That was soooo bush league I can hardly comprehend it. You are definitely doing the right thing by leaving. You were not appreciated. It doesn't matter why you were not appreciated, but it is so clear that this was the case.
Let your step out of this situation be your first step into a better situation. Be you and do you and it will all fall into place.
Peace,
James
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i didnt get a chance to say anything. .....
But if your original post you said you spoke with the VP? In essence you did get a chance. Basically like we've said, next time nip it in the bud.
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Im an old school idealist, living in a fantasy world that somehow places some value on dedication, reliability and dependability.
At least now I understand why the president (or was it the vice president) keeps asking for you to come back and play.
It gives the president (or vice) the option to take a risk on a different bass player and when it doesn't work out there you are like a ram in the bush.
I bet the interesting thing is the person in charge doesn't even see this as a problem. In fact from their viewpoint their main goal is to have the best choir possible. and if they lose a bass player, that is fine since it is the jurisdiction choir and there are plenty of bass players who want that spot.
This was just my attempt to understand what the person in leadership may be thinking. It appears (at least to me) that there is no hard feelings just someone attempting to make the best team possible without regards for emotions.
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This is an irrelavent question: What were the songs that you guys were playing?
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But if your original post you said you spoke with the VP? In essence you did get a chance. Basically like we've said, next time nip it in the bud.
i spoke to him, yes. but i couldnt speak to her at the moment and still be respectful and cordial about it. i just couldnt. we all dont have that in us. maybe u can, but we all cant and maintain the standard that Christ has set for us. It took all that i had not to blow up at the other bass player, so u think i wouldve been able to sit down and have a nice civilized discussion with the pres. at that moment? i dont think so. So after I had a cool head, i didnt get a chance to say anything to the pres.
At least now I understand why the president (or was it the vice president) keeps asking for you to come back and play.
It gives the president (or vice) the option to take a risk on a different bass player and when it doesn't work out there you are like a ram in the bush.
I bet the interesting thing is the person in charge doesn't even see this as a problem. In fact from their viewpoint their main goal is to have the best choir possible. and if they lose a bass player, that is fine since it is the jurisdiction choir and there are plenty of bass players who want that spot.
This was just my attempt to understand what the person in leadership may be thinking. It appears (at least to me) that there is no hard feelings just someone attempting to make the best team possible without regards for emotions.
this is the same conclusion i was coming to.
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Im an old school idealist, living in a fantasy world that somehow places some value on dedication, reliability and dependability.
Funny. I thought I was the only one living in that world. Glad to have your company. :)
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Funny. I thought I was the only one living in that world. Glad to have your company. :)
I'm still an optimist, but I have found that no good deed goes unpunished.
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Wow... y'see this is where my grand daddy's old saying about "boy don't let nobody p*** on you and call it rain" comes into full effect.. I didn't even read the responses to this yet.. just the initial post... and I am like
... YIKES!!!! :o
My hat's off to you.. and the fact that you were able to keep your cool. You are right to not take it out on the other bass player... HOWEVER he should be sensitive to the situation.. as I am sure you would be if you were in his shoes ....
Ok... and now that I have read the rest of the thread... my answer to "Did I do the right thing by not quitting?" is... that is entirely up to you... but I will say you are not supposed to be feeling bad playing music.. especially when your heart is in it for the kingdom.. and from my vantage point... if people would be that inconsiderate.. especially in light of your dedication (making rehearsals, learning the songs etc..) kind of reminds me of Mt 7:6.
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This whole deal reminds of the days when I played tournament level softball. For local league and tournaments, us totally dedicated players were always there at practices and all games but whenever there was an out of town, big time tourney, at least 4-5 ringers would be there and we'd always be on the bench! I dealt with it for 6 years before I decided I had had enough! Me and the few other guys left and not soon after, the team started to go downhill and eventually ceased to exist! Hard work and dedication went out the window when it came to wanting the prize! It didn't matter since we were 90% outclassed at any tourney we entered anyway so why pay to fly guys in when you're gonna lose anyway!
I don't understand the need for another bass player! Do you know the material and play it well? Does the band as a whole know all the material and play it well? What is their reasoning? Nothing seems especially clear!! Unless I missed a post somewhere.
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well i prayed about it some more and made the decision to stay. a lot of stuff has been misunderstandings and miscommunication.
the president called me today and we talked for about a half hour and clarified some things. i told her how i felt what was done and she told me what happened. i expressed that i wasnt sure if i was gonna quit or not.
so it bothered me for the day not knowing what i was going to do (was going to the rehearsal anyway:either to stay or to take my equipment home). so i passed up my gym time during my lunch break and sat in Central Park and just meditated on God seeking an answer.
I had some things that i wanted to make sure i expressed, and i talked to her some more once i got to the rehearsal. i decided to stay and play during the rehearsal. even the other bass player that left was there and things were clear with him as well. and things were cool once again.
Lessons learned:
1. I have to think with the scientific/engineering mind God gave me: if there is a problem i must FIRST verify ALL assumptions! i cant take any information for granted in making a conclusion or decision.
2. I was correct in the thought that me walking out last time would have been seen as "the whiny musician is mad because he cant have it his way" (that stigma about musicians totally exists), so I was right in being mindful of my actions and must continue to do so.
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So are you playing at the musical?
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....2. I was correct in the thought that me walking out last time would have been seen as "the whiny musician is mad because he cant have it his way" (that stigma about musicians totally exists), so I was right in being mindful of my actions and must continue to do so.
I'm glad you finally got a chance to express your feelings to the president. On your last thought though, IMO, that is not 100% true. You should always stand up for what you feel and if you felt that you were disrespected or not appreciated, you could have easily walked out with a smile. Yes there are some whiny musicians, but no one is going to walk over me. BTW, I commend you for handling yourself in a controlled manner.
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So are you playing at the musical?
yes. all that other stuff was misunderstandings and miscommunication. The DW thing was that they were doing a musical tribute to Timothy Wright, and he would be playing for that part only with David playing the organ. They have nothing to do with what else is going on that night. This could in no way shape or form be understood from the text, and with what the situation was, the mention of that without any clarification only added more confusion. So going forward i have to be mindful to get clarification on anything thats said/done/etc before i make any judgments or conclusions.
On your last thought though, IMO, that is not 100% true. You should always stand up for what you feel and if you felt that you were disrespected or not appreciated, you could have easily walked out with a smile. Yes there are some whiny musicians, but no one is going to walk over me. BTW, I commend you for handling yourself in a controlled manner.
during the conversation, it was mentioned about instances of other people who wanted to be the exclusive this or that and not let anybody else get a chance. So that was automatically the thought process. I had to clarify that this wasnt the case here and state the reasoning behind why i was upset and hurt. So I agree to stand up for what I feel, but if i had just walked out, never came back and never discussed what happened, that wouldve been the conclusion made. which is why i felt i needed to be mindful of what action i wouldve chosen to take.
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What songs are you guys singing?
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you sir have alot of patience.
To me it sounds like they're still walking all over you and using you regardless of how "nice" they sounded.
I would've politely said "thanks, but no thanks" and bowed out of that wretched situation.
Good luck to you though. I pray all goes well while you're still with them.
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you sir have alot of patience.
To me it sounds like they're still walking all over you and using you regardless of how "nice" they sounded.
I would've politely said "thanks, but no thanks" and bowed out of that wretched situation.
Good luck to you though. I pray all goes well while you're still with them.
+1
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What songs are you guys singing?
i wouldnt even be able to tell u right now. some of these songs i never heard of, some i have, but may not know who its by. some new stuff, some old stuff (there are a lot of older saints in the mix). i dont know what the official list for the musical, but the choir has to sing every night, from Tuesday to Saturday with Monday being the musical, so rehearsal has been comprising of all material planned on being done sometime during the course of the week.
off hand i can say
My Soul Says Yes
His Mercy Endureth Forever - Richard Smallwood
One More Chance - Ricky Dillard
Overflow (old-time church type song)
thats all i can think of off the top of my head since we did those in rehearsal last night. some of the songs im not familiar with so i dont know names or who its by. i'll be here listing songs out by the bass notes. lol.
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you sir have alot of patience.
To me it sounds like they're still walking all over you and using you regardless of how "nice" they sounded.
I would've politely said "thanks, but no thanks" and bowed out of that wretched situation.
Good luck to you though. I pray all goes well while you're still with them.
:D I've been there and know exactly what you mean but only he knows and time will tell the truth.
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:D I've been there and know exactly what you mean but only he knows and time will tell the truth.
I think the part that kills me is that the songs that have been mentioned so far aren't even complex, so there is no need to have more than 1 bass player.
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For me, its not the songs, but the way business has taken place in this situation. My question is, what will happen next year?
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I've learned from experience that when you have a true relationship with God, the same people that criticize you and play like they are getting over on you will always come back because they need you at some point. It never fails. :)
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Hey man once again I want to say, you are coming out of this situation victorious.
According to 2 Peter 1:1-9 You are adding qualities to your faith, that many believers won't
realize because they are busy protecting self. Paying special attention to verses 5 - 7, how many
of these things could you apply to this trial?
God is taking you somewhere brother, take courage in that.
Where is he taking him some might ask, with a cynical tone?
2 Peter 1:8,9 Amplified
8 For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [[g]full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
9 For whoever lacks these qualities is blind, [[h]spiritually] shortsighted, seeing only what is near to him, and has become oblivious [to the fact] that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Unfortunately, our human nature resists these things, and wants to kick against the ways that God develops our Character.
I am glad that you arrived at a decision. Especially since from your post the Lord gave you peace concerning the situation.
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I think the part that kills me is that the songs that have been mentioned so far aren't even complex, so there is no need to have more than 1 bass player.
there are several reasons for having more than one musician on all the instruments
some of THEIR reasons for having more than one bass player
part of it is because its the jurisdiction (comprised of at least 150 churches all across the state), even in the music dept, the bishop wants to have more people from the local churches involved. so that means there has to be some sort of rotation going on. but unlike other areas, like choir members, too many people in rotation as musicians diminishes the effective use of their time. this is what i did have to explain. but this is not a lifetime gig, so as time goes on, people may go on to other things leaving areas to fill.
also since this is a week long series of services, everybody may not be able to make it every night (people do have jobs, families, etc), so u do need multiple people in place at times.
well one thing that i figured was happening was that my skills were underestimated because of the way i played. I came there strictly to learn, not to get shine, not to show off, not to prove anything to anybody. So taking that receptive, humble spirit, especially one of learning changes how you play. Everybody else new that comes there, as soon as the music starts (even if they dont know the song) they start going off (drummers, organists, keyboardists, bass players) as if to say "i gotta show everybody that im niiiiice". Because I didnt do that it was interpreted as not being skilled or lack of confidence, rather than just wanting to learn.
I explained it like this. If you want to take a class to learn more about something, when the class starts are u gonna just start going full blast telling the teacher what you know? or are you going to pay attention, be receptive and take what they are telling you and as you go on, they'll know how knowledgeable you are.
some of MY reasons
Also a weak point of mine is hymns. We just dont do them at MY church, and the ones i do know, often times I have to learn them all over again because they are played entirely different (partly because the organist at my church butchers them) and i often find myself listening rather than playing, as im trying to find the progression amidst the 700 chord changes that every organist seems to feel the need to squeeze in.
And also because there's a rotation of organists and keyboardists going on, playing with each person just isnt the same and sometimes u have to adjust (which is already an adjustment from how i normally play at my church), which may not be an issue for any of you guys here, but is an issue for me right now, which is partly why i joined. so i can get accustomed to playing with other COMPETENT musicians.
so it does help at times to be able to have someone else to swap out with.
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Hey man once again I want to say, you are coming out of this situation victorious.
According to 2 Peter 1:1-9 You are adding qualities to your faith, that many believers won't
realize because they are busy protecting self. Paying special attention to verses 5 - 7, how many
of these things could you apply to this trial?
God is taking you somewhere brother, take courage in that.
Where is he taking him some might ask, with a cynical tone?
2 Peter 1:8,9 Amplified
8 For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [[g]full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
9 For whoever lacks these qualities is blind, [[h]spiritually] shortsighted, seeing only what is near to him, and has become oblivious [to the fact] that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Unfortunately, our human nature resists these things, and wants to kick against the ways that God develops our Character.
I am glad that you arrived at a decision. Especially since from your post the Lord gave you peace concerning the situation.
i think a large part of this situation (and probably the reason it even existed) is to deal with some issues and difficulties ive been having spiritually. so dealing with this situation i've been praying more, reading scripture, and i even sat in the middle of the park for an hour on a cold day seeking God. just to make a decision! something that i wouldnt have done if i had this problem last year. so in a situation where its like really, who cares if i play or not, its fostering actions that i will need when it comes time for a situation that DOES matter.
and i think this is something that i initially didnt see. thinking it was strictly a musical thing, and although some people may think it is, its NOT. and i think this is something that happens and a necessary process when you tell God you want to be MORE than just a musician. because whether i accomplish what God wants and needs me to do isnt dependent on what bass i play or what rig im playing through, but rather on where my relationship is with Him, and i think this whole thing put me in a new place regarding that.
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Not to be knocking your denomination or anyone else's, but I'm glad to be non-denominational so that I don't have to go through this stuff here.
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Not to be knocking your denomination or anyone else's, but I'm glad to be non-denominational so that I don't have to go through this stuff here.
not sure what this has to do with denomination. what is done in our jurisdiction (and you dont have to participate on the jurisdictional level) isnt necessarily done in others. it mostly depends on leadership and their vision for things.
everything u get into whether church/work/etc is gonna have elements you dont like or agree with. its just that i find this as the best avenue to work with other skilled musicians on a regular basis, without being subject to the questionable stuff in other musical circles floating around here and without doing the whole "shed" thing (cause that ends up as just a bunch of people trying to show off for others, rather than the musical collaboration and creative environment it SHOULD be)
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Let me explain. I grew up holiness so I know all about "unions on 5th sundays," campmeetings, week long tent revivals, jurisdiction, etc. Now that I'm on my own have gain my own understanding, I don't partake in those events no more. So, no I don't have to "compete" with the next musician to get some play during various services, musicals, etc. Been there, done that. All I'm saying is that I'm feel free. This is just ME. I please don't take offense to anything that I'm saying.
About the shed comment, obviously, the musicians where you are from have a different mindset. Yes, some sheds are show off sessions, but even with that, you can find some ideas from those sessions and broaden your musical perspective. Sheds are very much creative. How do you think the musicians come up with the creative licks and fills that they do. I hope that you take this next sentence with an open mind. It appears to me, that you don't like to step out of your comfort zone, which is fine, but when you don't you'll reach a plateau and never go any higher. Its like p90x. Tony Horton developed that system of training so that your muscles never get accustomed to what they are doing, ie. muscle confusion. This is so that our body doesn't reach the plateau affect. The same can be said about music. Its good to do things differently so that you can learn more. For me, I used to not like listening to music similar to Jonathan Stockstill, but at the church I currently have my membership, we sing his songs and others. With learning to play these songs, I learned how to play in unfamiliar keys such as E, B, A on the keyboard. In gospel, mostly everything is either in Eb, Ab, Db or Bb. I can now play in any key with no problem. Why, because I haven't limited myself to just the norm and my comfort zone.
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and i think this is something that i initially didnt see. thinking it was strictly a musical thing, and although some people may think it is, its NOT. and i think this is something that happens and a necessary process when you tell God you want to be MORE than just a musician. because whether i accomplish what God wants and needs me to do isnt dependent on what bass i play or what rig im playing through, but rather on where my relationship is with Him, and i think this whole thing put me in a new place regarding that.
AMEN! HALLELUJAH!
Somebody pass the plate!
Really brother, that is what it is all about. We can all learn from this situation.
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Let me explain. I grew up holiness so I know all about "unions on 5th sundays," campmeetings, week long tent revivals, jurisdiction, etc. Now that I'm on my own have gain my own understanding, I don't partake in those events no more. So, no I don't have to "compete" with the next musician to get some play during various services, musicals, etc. Been there, done that. All I'm saying is that I'm feel free. This is just ME. I please don't take offense to anything that I'm saying.
not taking offense at all. its just that its a choice. so even if those things are there, no one says you have to participate in such things. thats why i was saying that denomination shouldnt be a factor.
About the shed comment, obviously, the musicians where you are from have a different mindset. Yes, some sheds are show off sessions, but even with that, you can find some ideas from those sessions and broaden your musical perspective. Sheds are very much creative. How do you think the musicians come up with the creative licks and fills that they do.
You are quite right. sheds are SUPPOSED to be creative. However some are nothing more than popularity contests and tend to be filled with those people who would answer the question "what separates 'good' from 'great'?" with the answer "more licks!"
I hope that you take this next sentence with an open mind. It appears to me, that you don't like to step out of your comfort zone, which is fine, but when you don't you'll reach a plateau and never go any higher. ... Its good to do things differently so that you can learn more. For me, I used to not like listening to music similar to Jonathan Stockstill, but at the church I currently have my membership, we sing his songs and others. With learning to play these songs, I learned how to play in unfamiliar keys such as E, B, A on the keyboard. In gospel, mostly everything is either in Eb, Ab, Db or Bb. I can now play in any key with no problem. Why, because I haven't limited myself to just the norm and my comfort zone.
i want to be a greater musician. and for me that means understanding the music, the core "whats", "whys" and "hows" of creating and accomplishing a vision through music. not just collecting riffs and licks. On the other topic "what separates good from great" someone said placement, which i totally agree with. You dont learn placement by learning licks, you learn placement by understanding the music. And when you skip over that, you have the person who learns a new chord on the keys and plays it ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, guy that learns a new lick on the bass and plays it ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, etc. Because learning a new lick doesnt automatically give u good placement. But understanding the music lets you know where to place any lick that u do have and any new ones u may acquire over time.
I've played with organists with crazy runs and u ask "what key are u in" and they reply "i dont know". i ask what chord they are playing so i accentuate the chord quality on bass (something if u know how to do u can create your own licks on the fly) and they reply "i dont know". Ive played with drummers who can do crazy licks (maybe enough to make their own DVD) but cant establish rhythms for different genres of music or set a specific atmosphere. So if i have to sacrifice building my "lick library" in order to become a better student of music, i will gladly do so. Especially since thats necessary for effective songwriting. Dont get me wrong, i do pick up some licks here and there (its hard not to) but its not at all my focus neither in learning nor playing.
let me use an example. u want to build ur own bass, right? You can focus on whats the hottest bridge, the best pickup, the popular preamp, etc. But until you start understanding bass building as a whole in and of itself (which will include bridges, pickups, and pre's but not focus solely on that), you'll never be able to build a quality instrument. It'll just be a chunk of wood with spectacular accessories. And the mindset you have about this will determine if you'd to go to the "bass builders workshop" or the "bass pickup expo".
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you sir have alot of patience.
To me it sounds like they're still walking all over you and using you regardless of how "nice" they sounded.
I would've politely said "thanks, but no thanks" and bowed out of that wretched situation.
Good luck to you though. I pray all goes well while you're still with them.
+1
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"what separates good from great" someone said placement, which i totally agree with. You dont learn placement by learning licks, you learn placement by understanding the music. And when you skip over that, you have the person who learns a new chord on the keys and plays it ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, guy that learns a new lick on the bass and plays it ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, etc. Because learning a new lick doesnt automatically give u good placement. But understanding the music lets you know where to place any lick that u do have and any new ones u may acquire over time.
Just like some sports I have seen on the Olympics - Men's figure skating, for example - one has the quad jumps down, while the other wins the gold with clean technique and artistry. Guess who is the sore loser? The cat with the fancy 'licks'...
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Not to be knocking your denomination or anyone else's, but I'm glad to be non-denominational so that I don't have to go through this stuff here.
No dis-respect, but, Some non-denominationals are as jacked up as denominations. It aint no differernce. I've been in both. It all has to do with the leadership. If the church doesn't go by these acronyms (WWJD) then you more than likely will have problems anywhere.
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Floaded,
For me, I always try to use negativity as a positive. In so many words, they said your bass playing would not suffice for the event. For whatever reason. FOR ME THATS MOTIVATION!!!!! This situation would have caused me to add about 3 more hours to my practice time daily and Get busy with trying to improve my skill. We all can get better!!! Use that negativity for motivation. This was nothing but a stumbling block the enemy used to try and trip you up from using your gift for His purpose. GET BUSY MY MAN!!!!! Come back doing runs that DW Wright would give the stink face to.
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Floaded,
For me, I always try to use negativity as a positive. In so many words, they said your bass playing would not suffice for the event. For whatever reason. FOR ME THATS MOTIVATION!!!!! This situation would have caused me to add about 3 more hours to my practice time daily and Get busy with trying to improve my skill. We all can get better!!! Use that negativity for motivation. This was nothing but a stumbling block the enemy used to try and trip you up from using your gift for His purpose. GET BUSY MY MAN!!!!! Come back doing runs that DW Wright would give the stink face to.
I have to respectfully disagree. To use the negativity of others as a motivation is to place too much value on the opinions of others. While we can all get better, the desire to get better should come from a desire to please God in what we do. And God will use our gift, however great or small, for His glory and His purpose.