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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: baptistchurchman on March 28, 2010, 03:04:43 AM
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Do preachers or rather should preachers reach a certain status in their ministry where they have the right to say what you must pay them in order to come and preach? I have a few preacher guys that I know who have made it plain that unless you can pay them a certain amount of money for a preaching engagement they ain't coming. Now I asked this question among friends and suprisingly enough some of them feel that this behavioral practice is justified since the bible says "those who preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1Cor 9).
I understand that preachers must be paid because the bible says that, nor am I against preachers living well, but if I have reached a level of being paid maybe even tens of thousands of dollars for a preaching engagement, have I gotten so large that I can't preach at the small church that can only give me a few hundred or maybe close to nothing at all?
I happen to pastor a church that only has about 200 members, and I told a friend that I was thinking about bringing a certain pastor to our church to do a revival. His exact words were "oh you don't even need to think about calling him because ya'll can't AFFORD him". Afford? Huh? If we preaching from the same bible, about the same Jesus, what makes his sermons more expensive than anybody elses? Because he has a bigger name? I mean shouldn't they be willing to preach since God did call them to PREACH? Who are we to turn down assignments because of pay?
I know you have to have somewhat of a business mind in order to run the church these days, but have we started to treat the church so much like a business that we forget that it's still church?
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I think this is an interesting issue. I guess when your demand is do high, you just cant make it to every engagement for little or no money. I still think that even the big name preachers should preach at smaller churches sometimes for a fair fee.
I also wonder why do people need to have a big name preacher come to their church? Since you said that they all preach from the same bible...same Jesus, then it shouldn't matter whether the preacher that you bring in has a big name or not.
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I also wonder why do people need to have a big name preacher come to their church? Since you said that they all preach from the same bible...same Jesus, then it shouldn't matter whether the preacher that you bring in has a big name or not.
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I agree, but I guess I wonder..what makes a preacher a big name? I look at all of us as the same.
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We are not all the same.
I have more to say, but I don't feel like typing it on this BB.
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I agree, but I guess I wonder..what makes a preacher a big name? I look at all of us as the same.
We are not all the same.
I have more to say, but I don't feel like typing it on this BB.
This outta be good. :D
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This outta be good. :D
Indeed. I bet I know where she's going to go too.
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Mme Rue 'bout to lay down that word!
:)
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This outta be good. :D
Indeed. I bet I know where she's going to go too.
OMG, the pressure! LOL (love the avatar, btw, SJ).
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Okay, my random thoughts on the subject...
1. Preachers are not all the same. Some are better at preaching than others. Some are better at explaining than others. Some are better at clarifying, better at connecting with the congregation, better at articulating their thoughts, better at pronouncing their words, better at keeping the congregation engaged, better at preparing, better at delivering, the list goes on and on... but no, we are not all the same.
2. What makes a preacher a "big name" is when people recognize his/her name. LOL. That was an easy one. No seriously, some preachers are locally big, meaning that everyone in their metro area or state knows who they are. Some are big only in their organizations. Some are just plain big. The thing is, people become "big" by preaching well and connecting with the right people, going through the right doors when they open up, etc. (I intentionally left out the spiritual aspects like praying, fasting, being called, etc... we all know that).
3. There's nothing wrong with wanting to invite a "big" preacher to your church. In fact, it could be a very beneficial means of evangelism and church growth. Big preachers attract people that "no name" preachers don't. Like it? Maybe not, but it's the truth anyhow. If having Bishop Somebody at your church turns the whole town out, that gives you the opportunity to minister to folks you may not have had the opportunity to minister to otherwise. It can also increase your intake significantly. It can also put your church's name on the "map." Still don't like it? Okay, but it's still the truth.
4. Bishop Noel Jones is one "big" preacher who does not have an honorarium. I just thought I'd throw that out there.
5. I believe that this conversation could easily be equated to the discussion of whether musicians should get paid, whether other ministry servants should get paid, etc. It really is the same thing, when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it. You charge what your time/ministry is worth, and like U13 said, when the demand goes up, so does your fee. Some preachers pay a lot of money and make a lot of sacrifices to get their multiple degrees, which makes them better preachers. Some put a lot of time/money into other resources (books, conferences, research), which makes them better. Some spend a lot of time praying and preparing. It's like the musician who has to buy the keyboard, buy the study DVDs, attend the workshops, buy the mp3s, practice, practice, and practice some more... it costs money. I believe preachers who do "live of the gospel" should be adequately compensated for their travel time, time away from their families, dry cleaning, preparation, etc. Preaching ain't easy. HOWEVER, I can't get with the ones that will only come if you pay them $5,000 or $15,000 or even $1000. I just think their expenses should be paid (hotel, flight/gas, AND meals), and anything else should be a free will offering based on what the church can afford.
HOWEVER, it's not that simple... why? Because church people will try to get over on you. I've seen it way too many times. You tell a person, "oh, Bishop Smith doesn't charge an honorarium, but he'll gladly receive whatever offering you give." And they'll use the preacher to raise a $5000 offering (and know good and doggone well that their church has never had an offering over $500), and then they'll give him $100. Now he just drove 4 hours to get to your church, will drive 4 hours back, sweated his clothes out, had to eat out, brought a profit to your church, and you give him $100? He proved his worth when he raised a $5000 offering, but you gave him a check worth $100?
THIS is why the preachers started doing these mandatory honoraria. For the record, I don't believe in mandatory honoraria for preachers. But I sure can understand why they do it.
What is common today is that many preachers will raise their own speakers' offering, which is theirs to keep. Or, they may do a 50/50 split with the host church. That comes with problems too, because some churches will try to be slick about the amount raised so they don't have to pay out as much. I remember at a former church we had a guest speaker, and when our finance people went into the office to count, the guest church sent two of their people back there with our people. One of the ushers came and got me to go get things settled (because we had rules about not allowing anyone in the office during counting). Their guy told me that their policy was that they always accompany counters, and that he thought their administrator would've cleared that with me in advance. Their administrator later told me that her pastor had been shafted too many times when the host church gives less than the 50% they agreed to give. Doggone shame.
I could tell story after story of preachers who really shock me with their honoraria and negotiating practices and riders (yes, preachers have riders). I know of one big-name preacher who told a pastor she required $5000. He said, "that's way over our budget; can we do $4000?" She said no. I know of another who has a member who works for Marriott and gets a discount. The church always puts guests at the Marriott. This big-namer insisted on staying at another hotel instead, even though it ended up costing them $150/night more. Then there was the big-name Bishop who insisted on travel accommodations for his wife and adjutant (and his wife didn't even come to 2 of the 3 services). I could go on and on... these folks are a trip.
BOTTOM LINE: I don't think anyone should ever reject an invitation to preach because the host church does not have enough money to afford them. That is just wrong.
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And now for the benediction...lol
Good points LaRue
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BOTTOM LINE: I don't think anyone should ever reject an invitation to preach because the host church does not have enough money to afford them. That is just wrong.
This is for the other LGMers that suffer from ADD. :-\ :D
And, thanks, LaRue (concerning the avatar).
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Thank you, "sjonathan02".
Stay blessed.
Fenix.
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LaRue 1212 you brought out some really good points....I guess I am just tired of the ones I see that refuse and reject engagements because the church can't "afford" them. If God called me to preach then I should preach in season and out of season, when they can pay me and when they can't pay me. Who are we to give back assignments?
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even thought i'm not a "big name preacher", i have been on the shafted end when it came to offering. this hasn't stopped me from returning to those places to preach. i know factually that they could have given me an offering. but, nonetheless, i was called to do this job.
if God allows me to become well know, i can never see myself setting a price before i come. i agree w/larue. i know why people do it, just don't see it being apart of my future.
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Great points made Larue.
I'm also a minister, and I definitely couldn't see myself turning down an opportunity just because of money issues. If you happen to get over on me that's your problem not mine, you reap what you sow. To me the opportunity is greater than the pay. The opportunity can open many doors in many ways (salvation, deliverance,more opportunities,and many other things that God can provide for the preacher and the attendees).
I look at it like this every little bit helps. Hopefully the word God gave me to give you will help, and whatever God lays on your heart to give me will help.
My father who is my Pastor Taught me one thing when I first started preaching that I'll always take to heart. He told me son don't get in this thing for the money because a lot of times it will be very low and tonight (my initial sermon) maybe the highest offering you ever get. Believe it or not he was pretty close in this assumption, I've been preaching for six years now and only once or twice has the offering been beyond that night.
People are going to give what they want to give regardless, but it's what God gives you that matters the most. ;D ;D ;D
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Paul who also supported himself as a tent maker said:
I Cor 9:6-11
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
The problem is some have let greed enter in. They have seen another minister with a bigger car or heard that another made more money than them at the last engagement. Some have placed the value of their ministry on how much they charge for it.
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Paul who also supported himself as a tent maker said:
I Cor 9:6-11
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
The problem is some have let greed enter in. They have seen another minister with a bigger car or heard that another made more money than them at the last engagement. Some have placed the value of their ministry on how much they charge for it.
You are so right....some have failed to realize that the biggest reward for doing God's work will not be found in an envelope.
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To me ;)
Charging an honorarium turns the ministry from being about the people to being self-focused. Ministry should never be about self. Ministry is about serving. Yes preachers should be paid but when you got to charge you have thrown the purpose of ministry to the toilet.
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To me ;)
Charging an honorarium turns the ministry from being about the people to being self-focused. Ministry should never be about self. Ministry is about serving. Yes preachers should be paid but when you got to charge you have thrown the purpose of ministry to the toilet.
How so?
How is that different from requesting a particular beverage? That's self-focused, too, but it enables you to do effective ministry. Please explain how charging an honorarium is "self-focused" or throws the purpose of ministry to the toilet. If a preacher charges $2, is that still self-focused? $200? $2000? $20,000?
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How so?
How is that different from requesting a particular beverage? That's self-focused, too, but it enables you to do effective ministry. Please explain how charging an honorarium is "self-focused" or throws the purpose of ministry to the toilet. If a preacher charges $2, is that still self-focused? $200? $2000? $20,000?
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/sjonathan02/vybgbrjpg.gif?t=1269905784)
Your shoulder must be in pain. :-\ :D
I believe what folks are saying is a honorarium shouldn't be charged. Take up a collection for the guest preacher? Sure. Absolutely.
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([url]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/sjonathan02/vybgbrjpg.gif?t=1269905784[/url])
Your shoulder must be in pain. :-\ :D
I believe what folks are saying is a honorarium shouldn't be charged. Take up a collection for the guest preacher? Sure. Absolutely.
Exactly.
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([url]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/sjonathan02/vybgbrjpg.gif?t=1269905784[/url])
Your shoulder must be in pain. :-\ :D
I believe what folks are saying is a honorarium shouldn't be charged. Take up a collection for the guest preacher? Sure. Absolutely.
Not really. My statement was as broad (intentionally so) as his was. I don't think the issue is charging an honorarium, the issue is charging an exorbitant or outrageous honorarium OR being inflexible with the honorarium (i.e. refusing to minister if it is not met).
Also, I really think folks shouldn't have too much to say about the subject unless folks are preachers.
Anddddd... if anti-honorarium is the stance we're going to take, somebody is going to have to explain to me how that is any different from an organist charging $250 to fill in for a worship service.
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Exactly.
And again I ask:
How so?
How is that different from requesting a particular beverage? That's self-focused, too, but it enables you to do effective ministry. Please explain how charging an honorarium is "self-focused" or throws the purpose of ministry to the toilet. If a preacher charges $2, is that still self-focused? $200? $2000? $20,000?
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Not really. My statement was as broad (intentionally so) as his was. I don't think the issue is charging an honorarium, the issue is charging an exorbitant or outrageous honorarium OR being inflexible with the honorarium (i.e. refusing to minister if it is not met).
Also, I really think folks shouldn't have too much to say about the subject unless folks are preachers.
Anddddd... if anti-honorarium is the stance we're going to take, somebody is going to have to explain to me how that is any different from an organist charging $250 to fill in for a worship service.
There's no difference to me. Charging for ministry is charging for ministry no matter who it is.
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There's no difference to me. Charging for ministry is charging for ministry no matter who it is.
Thanks for answering that question (which wasn't really directed toward you... lol). Now can you answer the other one? That WAS directed toward you.... :)
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Not really. My statement was as broad (intentionally so) as his was. I don't think the issue is charging an honorarium, the issue is charging an exorbitant or outrageous honorarium OR being inflexible with the honorarium (i.e. refusing to minister if it is not met).
Also, I really think folks shouldn't have too much to say about the subject unless folks are preachers.
Anddddd... if anti-honorarium is the stance we're going to take, somebody is going to have to explain to me how that is any different from an organist charging $250 to fill in for a worship service.
I don't think one gets to be exorbitant if one never gets in the habit of asking. *kanyeshrug*
As for your second sentence, folks speak on plllllleeeeeeeeeenty of subjects without being members of said subjects. :-\ :D
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I don't think one gets to be exorbitant if one never gets in the habit of asking. *kanyeshrug*
As for your second sentence, folks speak on plllllleeeeeeeeeenty of subjects without being members of said subjects. :-\ :D
So are you also in the "musicians shouldn't charge" camp?
And as for that second sentence, yeah, don't I know it. LOL
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I don't think one gets to be exorbitant if one never gets in the habit of asking. *kanyeshrug*
As for your second sentence, folks speak on plllllleeeeeeeeeenty of subjects without being members of said subjects. :-\ :D
Yeah, look at Ellen on AI. She's no singer, but....anyway, I personally don't ask for anything when I'm asked to speak. My tent-making takes care of me. But, if preaching was all I did, then I would likely think differently.
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So are you also in the "musicians shouldn't charge" camp?
And as for that second sentence, yeah, don't I know it. LOL
I wouldn't say that; in fact, I never said that.
Yeah, look at Ellen on AI. She's no singer, but....anyway, I personally don't ask for anything when I'm asked to speak. My tent-making takes care of me. But, if preaching/playing an instrument* was all I did, then I would likely think differently.
I think the enlarged part is the key. If this is one's SOLE livelihood, I can understand charging a fee. At the same time, most cats have a 'tent-making' gig AND this 'I don't play or preach unless they can pay me X amount of dollars' is just WACK!!
And, I know you agree with that because you said it on page one at the end of your diatribe. ;) :D
*addition mine
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I wouldn't say that; in fact, I never said that.
I think the enlarged part is the key. If this is one's SOLE livelihood, I can understand charging a fee. At the same time, most cats have a 'tent-making' gig AND this 'I don't play or preach unless they can pay me X amount of dollars' is just WACK!!
And, I know you agree with that because you said it on page one at the end of your diatribe. ;) :D
*addition mine
I didn't say you said that; I was asking a question. :)
And yeah, I agree with LL (and you).
But on the contrary, I don't think "most cats" have a f/t job. Many pastors (too many, in fact) quit their jobs to become full-time pastors (or evangelists). In fact, I hate to say it, but many become pastors so that they CAN quit their daytime jobs. Or many lose their jobs and find a "job" in pastoring... so they start a church. ;D :-\
It is what it is.
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I didn't say you said that; I was asking a question. :)
And yeah, I agree with LL (and you).
But on the contrary, I don't think "most cats" have a f/t job. Many pastors (too many, in fact) quit their jobs to become full-time pastors (or evangelists). In fact, I hate to say it, but many become pastors so that they CAN quit their daytime jobs. Or many lose their jobs and find a "job" in pastoring... so they start a church. ;D :-\
It is what it is.
Sadly, it is. :-\
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Not really. My statement was as broad (intentionally so) as his was. I don't think the issue is charging an honorarium, the issue is charging an exorbitant or outrageous honorarium OR being inflexible with the honorarium (i.e. refusing to minister if it is not met).
Also, I really think folks shouldn't have too much to say about the subject unless folks are preachers.
Anddddd... if anti-honorarium is the stance we're going to take, somebody is going to have to explain to me how that is any different from an organist charging $250 to fill in for a worship service.
LaRue1212 were you tuning up right there? If so, somebody needs to get on an organ and find you....lol.
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LaRue1212 were you tuning up right there? If so, somebody needs to get on an organ and find you....lol.
According to my friends, I'm always tuning up. LOL! They tease me all the time for "tuning up" when I get excited in regular conversation, or when praying, teaching, debating... LOL. They're all liars, though! :D :D :D
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I didn't say you said that; I was asking a question. :)
And yeah, I agree with LL (and you).
But on the contrary, I don't think "most cats" have a f/t job. Many pastors (too many, in fact) quit their jobs to become full-time pastors (or evangelists). In fact, I hate to say it, but many become pastors so that they CAN quit their daytime jobs. Or many lose their jobs and find a "job" in pastoring... so they start a church. ;D :-\
It is what it is.
The question I have is if I am a Pastor who is drawing a salary from my church (don't like the term full-time) then that is my tent making so why should i charge a crazy amount to speak? In the urban church most of the parishoners are poor or middle class, why drain them when you already are doing well? I preach places regardless of the size & always will.
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The question I have is if I am a Pastor who is drawing a salary from my church (don't like the term full-time) then that is my tent making so why should i charge a crazy amount to speak? In the urban church most of the parishoners are poor or middle class, why drain them when you already are doing well? I preach places regardless of the size & always will.
And there you have it.
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LaRue....well done!
People get so mad when people request honorariums/funds for their service. I am in a community choir that brings 40-50 people per engagement and let's be honest....we PUT IT DOWN! Because we are new, our fee is $150 for any engagement within an hour's drive. Church/ministry is still a business. You want our group because 1) of our name and 2) of the level of excellence you'll get.
There have been several churches that have gotten upset for us charging a fee, however the main reason you want us is to fatten your attendance (and hopefully your offering). The only time we look at not charging the fee (which is very reasonable for what you're getting) is if we are attending a church of a choir member.
If your job told you that your pay rate will be based on the percentage of profit made during the pay period.......
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wow...great discussion..nothing "profound to add" just wanted to respond, lol
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Well since VTG moved us on over to another subject... lol...
I've always been a little shaky about community choirs who charge... but I got a different viewpoint during the brief period that I was doing some business management for a local choir. I don't know about other cities, but in Atlanta, most musicians don't move without being paid. This means that if the choir is singing without being paid, the director has to pay the musicians out of his pocket (unless the choir has a treasury, which most of them don't... but either way, the choir is paying the musicians). That's kinda unfair.
And you hit on a key point, VTG... a LOT of churches invite speakers AND choirs to fill up the pews (and hopefully the offering basket). Why should your church get fat (transl: a financial blessing) off my talent/skill/anointing/gift and I don't get fat (a financial blessing) in return? Occasionally, that might be okay, but not as the norm.
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LaRue....well done!
People get so mad when people request honorariums/funds for their service. I am in a community choir that brings 40-50 people per engagement and let's be honest....we PUT IT DOWN! Because we are new, our fee is $150 for any engagement within an hour's drive. Church/ministry is still a business. You want our group because 1) of our name and 2) of the level of excellence you'll get.
There have been several churches that have gotten upset for us charging a fee, however the main reason you want us is to fatten your attendance (and hopefully your offering). The only time we look at not charging the fee (which is very reasonable for what you're getting) is if we are attending a church of a choir member.
If your job told you that your pay rate will be based on the percentage of profit made during the pay period.......
For some reason, this reminds me of Robocop.
(http://www.thefader.com/ys_assets/0001/7974/buyfordollar_main.jpg)
And you hit on a key point, VTG... a LOT of churches invite speakers AND choirs to fill up the pews (and hopefully the offering basket). Why should your church get fat (transl: a financial blessing) off my talent/skill/anointing/gift and I don't get fat (a financial blessing) in return? Occasionally, that might be okay, but not as the norm.
....And that takes us full circle.
Do preachers or rather should preachers reach a certain status in their ministry where they have the right to say what you must pay them in order to come and preach?
I think if you're asking someone to come to (basically) get a bigger offering, then you need to pay them.
Now, if the money will be donated to some cause, then they may be willing to do it for free. But as we found out from our other thread, many churches do little in their community. So.....
It's a sad state we're in.....but....
(http://www.learngospelmusic.com/media/albums/userpics/10518/holiness.jpg)
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I agree, but I guess I wonder..what makes a preacher a big name? I look at all of us as the same.
LaRue, I loved your answer to this statement.
BaptChurchman - Since we are all the same, I'll come and preach at your church if the "named" person doesn't. I got the same Jesus, and the same Bible. (SMILE). I don't charge either. Just give me some gas money, feed me, and if needed put me in a hotel overnight. It's between you and God whether you'd like to bless me any further. {SMILE}
Now, I CAN PREACH....but......
I don't have a "big name" so I might not draw a big crowd. But is it a crowd you want or a Word? Let's keep it real----most folk desire both!
No, preachers are not all the same....we have the same God, but some have a greater anointing than others. If I was a "name", I don't know what I'd do as far as "honorariums". I haven't been in that place. But being at a big name church and working with big name preachers and singers I do see the other side. The fee covers a lot of expenses that we really don't know about. Bringing people with them (assistants, security), product shipping, etc. But the real truth is this---we wouldn't consider them if they weren't a name.
I do agree that some of the fees are outrageous. Some are reasonable. I still respect the gift that God has placed in each. And here's another truth.....the reason why some charge high fees is because people are willing to pay for it. We don't mind paying a registration fee of 50 bucks to hear TD Jakes at a conference....but let Sister T preach at a conference for a registration fee of 25 bucks-----you'd be asking WHO IS SISTER T?
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I dont see why someone has to be doing something full time in order to be compensated. As if its not hard work and they arent taking time away from their families to minister at your church. Now Me, If I was making 6 figures on my day job, then maybe I wouldnt mind not being compensated, but that is not case for me (yet) and its not the case for most of us in ministry. Lets be honest, the pay from churches is usually not enough to sustain a family on, unless you are at a MD at a mega church or play at 3 churches every weekend. IMO It seems like everybody today wants something for nothing.
btjm ydhta (you dont have to agree) :D
Maybe someone can respectfully make it clear to me
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I dont see why someone has to be doing something full time in order to be compensated. As if its not hard work and they arent taking time away from their families to minister at your church. Now Me, If I was making 6 figures on my day job, then maybe I wouldnt mind not being compensated, but that is not case for me (yet) and its not the case for most of us in ministry. Lets be honest, the pay from churches is usually not enough to sustain a family on, unless you are at a MD at a mega church or play at 3 churches every weekend. IMO It seems like everybody today wants something for nothing.
btjm ydhta (you dont have to agree) :D
Maybe someone can respectfully make it clear to me
I agree with you completely... I know I have personally made the mistake of doing a lot of stuff for free, just because I had a full-time job, so I didn't need the money. Now that I'm in a position where I've done church consulting full-time and I'm trying to get back into doing it full-time, I can see that doing freebies is a major mistake that many of us make. Yeah, I have a full-time job, but I don't WANT to have a full-time job, I want to be in full-time ministry. And the only way I can do that is if I charge you what I would charge if I were already in F/T ministry. My former pastor used to say act like you are where you want to be.
LaRue, I loved your answer to this statement.
BaptChurchman - Since we are all the same, I'll come and preach at your church if the "named" person doesn't. I got the same Jesus, and the same Bible. (SMILE). I don't charge either. Just give me some gas money, feed me, and if needed put me in a hotel overnight. It's between you and God whether you'd like to bless me any further. {SMILE}
Now, I CAN PREACH....but......
I don't have a "big name" so I might not draw a big crowd. But is it a crowd you want or a Word? Let's keep it real----most folk desire both!
No, preachers are not all the same....we have the same God, but some have a greater anointing than others. If I was a "name", I don't know what I'd do as far as "honorariums". I haven't been in that place. But being at a big name church and working with big name preachers and singers I do see the other side. The fee covers a lot of expenses that we really don't know about. Bringing people with them (assistants, security), product shipping, etc. But the real truth is this---we wouldn't consider them if they weren't a name.
I do agree that some of the fees are outrageous. Some are reasonable. I still respect the gift that God has placed in each. And here's another truth.....the reason why some charge high fees is because people are willing to pay for it. We don't mind paying a registration fee of 50 bucks to hear TD Jakes at a conference....but let Sister T preach at a conference for a registration fee of 25 bucks-----you'd be asking WHO IS SISTER T?
Thanks, SisterT. And I couldn't agree with you more.
And you reminded me of another point... at some point, these big name preachers become more than just a name, they become a brand. Just like you'll pay more for "Q-Tips" than you do for "cotton swabs" or more for "Vaseline" than you will for "petroleum jelly," you usually have to pay more for TD Jakes than you do for NJ Anderson or more for Iona Locke than you do for SisterT. You are paying for the brand, and everything that goes along with the brand: marketing, advertising, website, real estate, expenses, salaries, supplies, product, etc...
When you think of the name as a brand, it all starts to make sense.
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I agree with you completely... I know I have personally made the mistake of doing a lot of stuff for free, just because I had a full-time job, so I didn't need the money. Now that I'm in a position where I've done church consulting full-time and I'm trying to get back into doing it full-time, I can see that doing freebies is a major mistake that many of us make. Yeah, I have a full-time job, but I don't WANT to have a full-time job, I want to be in full-time ministry. And the only way I can do that is if I charge you what I would charge if I were already in F/T ministry. My former pastor used to say act like you are where you want to be.
Yeah, I've heard people in other arenas say the same thing. Once you start doing stuff for cheap or free, you are gonna be known as the cheap or free <insert your business here>, and you dont want that, because it will be hard to shake that reputation. Thats why my rates are going up effective immediately ;D . Yeah you may lose some business, but thats probably the kinda business you dont want.
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So I just got this via e-mail from someone to whom I extended an invitation on behalf of my church...
FLIGHT PARTICULARS:
It is our request that the host ministry assume the cost of 2 airline tickets. When booking the flight, XXXX prefers flying US Air, American, or Delta Airlines. If at all possible, try to reserve an aisle or window seat near the front of the plane. Prior to booking the flight, please contact the Administrator to discuss details as she may not be flying from her local area, may decide on other travel arrangements and may not require 2 tickets.
HOTEL PARTICULARS:
It is our request that the host ministry assume the cost of 2 hotel rooms. When booking the hotel, please reserve a King, Non-Smoking Room for XXXX.
HONORARIUM:
An honorarium of $2,000 would be appreciated. However, it is XXXX’s desire to serve the people of God with excellence and never to “rape or rob” any ministry and leave them under financial strain. If this honorarium can not be met, please inform her Administrator prior to XXXX’s arrival, in an effort to explore other options. Please make all checks payable to “XXXX”. If forms are to be completed for tax purposes, please forward them via email, so they can be returned in a timely manner.
That was an excerpt from the correspondence.
It's a little more than I would want to pay this particular person, but we'll see... I do appreciate the fact that it's not a "if you can't pay it, I can't come" situation. I always prefer preachers who offer other alternatives.
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Mom, I'd pay 25.00 for your conference... Does that come WITH the program? I just need to know up front, lol.
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Mom, I'd pay 25.00 for your conference... Does that come WITH the program? I just need to know up front, lol.
LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's funny how that works out! The conference is free, but the programs are $30! ;D ;D ;D
Our Bishop tried that with the Africans in Korea, they either didn't come...or they just didn't get the programs. We warned him.
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LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's funny how that works out! The conference is free, but the programs are $30! ;D ;D ;D
Our Bishop tried that with the Africans in Korea, they either didn't come...or they just didn't get the programs. We warned him.
We did that at my church, but the program books were only $5.
I think that's fair if the conference is free. We only had two workshops and a panel, so I couldn't see charging $30 for programs (even if big name folks came, I wouldn't have charged $30 bc I know no one would want to pay it).
I also agree with charging registration fees. People who don't work behind the scenes don't realize it, but ministry costs. It costs money to print the programs, pay the speakers, run the electricity, etc... I ain't paying $30 for a program, but I'd pay $30 for a registration fee, if I thought I could benefit from it. I'd definitely pay $5 or $10 just to support. $20 if I could afford it.
$30 is just pushing it, buddy. :D :D :D :D
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Mom, I'd pay 25.00 for your conference... Does that come WITH the program? I just need to know up front, lol.
Well, I got one at my conference. LOL!!! What if I told you we weren't issuing programs. Would tha be a deal breaker? LOL!!
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I had to bring this up, because I'm kinda perplexed/annoyed...
A pastor-friend of mine asked me if I know anyone in "John Doe's" choir. I told him that I know John Doe and a bunch of people in his choir. I coordinated an event or two for them a few years ago. He's a local celebrity, but certainly not someone most of you would know. The pastor-friend wants to bring John Doe and the Doettes to his church. He also wants John to preach.
Anyway, a few months back, my pastor wanted to bring John Doe's choir down to Selma and I called John. He told me that our mutual friend, "Dean" is handling his management now, told me the date was good and asked me to call Dean and work out the details. I had no problem with that. Yesterday, I called John and told him about the pastor-friend that wanted him. I told him that I would give Dean a call to work it all out, but I wanted to call him personally because I didn't know he accepted preaching engagements. He's an EXCELLENT exhorter and singer and director, but I'd never heard him preach, nor have I heard of him preaching.
Anyway, when I called Dean, I asked him for two separate quotes, one for preaching and one for the choir. The honorarium for the preaching engagement was $650.00. I was truly caught off guard by that. I'm kinda offended. And I'm not sure how/whether to say something. On the one hand, I agree with those who say that if you don't like the honorarium, just get someone else. But on the other hand, I think that I need to tell him how exorbitant and unreasonable that is. Especially for him. He's a kid. Not even 30 yet. I'm not even sure he has a license, to tell you the truth. :-\
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How much should his price be?
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How much should his price be?
To preach? Personally, I don't think he should have a price. He should accept a freewill offering. That is my stance in any preaching situation, HOWEVER, in this case, he's already going to be there for the choir, so it's not like he's making a special trip to preach. His lodging and transportation will be paid for. Plus, he's receiving a handsome honorarium for ministering with his choir. PLUS, he's just a minister (no offense to the ministers); not an elder, pastor, bishop, overseer, or apostle. Plus, I really don't know if he even has preaching experience. People see him exhorting on YouTube and think he can preach. I've known him for 10 years and I've yet to hear him take a text and present a real sermon. He hasn't arrived to the place where he can reasonably charge $650. Heck, Bishop Noel Jones doesn't charge $650, why would this dude? It's taking advantage, that's what it is.
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If you're cool wit' dude (meaning, you're homies-from-back-in-the-day, know-each-other's-kids, type cool) then speak to him about it AFTER you have decided NOT to use him.
If not, just don't use him as a preacher and find someone else. *kanyeshrug*
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If you're cool wit' dude (meaning, you're homies-from-back-in-the-day, know-each-other's-kids, type cool) then speak to him about it AFTER you have decided NOT to use him.
If not, just don't use him as a preacher and find someone else. *kanyeshrug*
Yeah, that's pretty much my plan. I'm going to speak to both of them because I'm cool with them both. The thing is, I understand him not "hooking me up" so to speak because it's not my thing, it's for someone else. I'm just the middle woman. If it was for me, I know he would do otherwise because we've already been down that road. My issue is that $650 is too high regardless. And yeah, I will definitely tell them both that.
We are homies from back in the day, and although he and his wife don't have any kids yet, I coordinated his proposal and even held the ring for him all night until the big moment. :D
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I would tell him, if possible, before I even relay the info to the third party. Maybe he's never been asked for a speaking honorarium, and didn't know what to request, LOL. He should've asked somebody, though.
I was at a friend's church last night, because they had a visitor who happens to be the brother of their MOM. He was out here from NC for Thanksgiving, and they wanted him to speak. I think that not having heard him before, the pastor opted for a special service on Tuesday night as opposed to Sunday Morning, lol. This man preached! The word was so, so, on time, revelatory, powerful... it was just wow. The guy didn't ask for anything, as far as he was concerned, he was up here to visit his sister and nieces/nephews, and given the opportunity, he was ready to share the word. At the end of the service, the pastor gave him a 500.00 gift. It was so awesome. He specifically said it was because he didn't come looking for anything and showed a genuine interest in the church being blessed and helped more than anything else. $500 for a tuesday night, sparsely attended service? Look at God. If he would've asked for anything it surely would've been significantly lower than what he actually got.
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I'm still laughing at John Doe and the Doettes :D :D
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How so?
How is that different from requesting a particular beverage? That's self-focused, too, but it enables you to do effective ministry. Please explain how charging an honorarium is "self-focused" or throws the purpose of ministry to the toilet. If a preacher charges $2, is that still self-focused? $200? $2000? $20,000?
I'm responding to this for 2 reasons:
1. As an apology for never answering this question that LaRue asked.
2. Because I brought this up in the book club.
I originally said that I felt like charging an honorarium turns ministry to being self-focused. The reason I believe this is because when Jesus did all of the ministry work he did, it was never about Jesus making himself look like the big dog, it was about serving and giving glory to God. There are many ministers/workers who charge an honorarium that could be given to someone else with less money and do as good of a job (if not better) than the person receiving the large honorarium. I don't see anything wrong with saying (once someone asks you what you charge) "whatever you feel it was worth."
Bottomline, the focus of ministry should be Jesus glorified and the flesh suppressed. Asking for a specific amount and refusing to serve unless that amount is paid is in my mind self-focused.
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No it's smart, wise, and needed!
[hypothetical]I want to put together a huge Holy convocation in August and I want to bring a huge attendance to my event. I know I'll get IV Hilliard to come preach and Sheryl Brady as well. Also I'll get Marvin Sapp to do praise and worship. I won't have to do much marketing because once the word hits the streets, people will be lined up to get in. [/hypothetical]
These artists are well aware why they are being asked to come. Not because it was "laid upon the pastor's heart". It's to make their event a success. ($$) They have every right to require an honorarium as most people of this caliber have contracts that state they have to have certain accommodations on top of their pay.
Little ol' me gets paid to direct choirs for their workshop so I agree that anybody giving the word should be compensated. Sorry.
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No it's smart, wise, and needed!
[hypothetical]I want to put together a huge Holy convocation in August and I want to bring a huge attendance to my event. I know I'll get IV Hilliard to come preach and Sheryl Brady as well. Also I'll get Marvin Sapp to do praise and worship. I won't have to do much marketing because once the word hits the streets, people will be lined up to get in. [/hypothetical]
These artists are well aware why they are being asked to come. Not because it was "laid upon the pastor's heart". It's to make their event a success. ($$) They have every right to require an honorarium as most people of this caliber have contracts that state they have to have certain accommodations on top of their pay.
Little ol' me gets paid to direct choirs for their workshop so I agree that anybody giving the word should be compensated. Sorry.
exactly. Everybody wants something for nothing. I'm sure that there are local preachers who will preach for free and will deliver just as well as the big names.
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Aside from the traditional convocations/annual conferences as done by the larger organizations (COGIC, PAW, COOLJC, Baptist Convention, Methodist Convention, UPC, UMC, etc.), I wonder what the real motive is for the other ones who do it.
I know that seems random, but VTG's post made me think about it.
I'm guessing (and ICBW) that most of them are just done to gain some name recognition (for pastor or ministry) or to earn a profit. Rarely do they think of the community and say "I want to be a blessing to the community by having a women's conference" (IMO). Most of the times, the conferences aren't even geared toward non-church folks... and it's nothing more than a bunch of services and workshops assigned a brand and marketed to a certain demographic.
And why is God all of a sudden speaking so much about conferences in the past 20-30 years? How come He wasn't telling pastors to have conferences 50 years ago?
In my work as a consultant, I've found that most conferences start with the words "I want to have a..."
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*still wonders why Churchy LOVES cans of worms* :-\
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LaRue....well done!
People get so mad when people request honorariums/funds for their service. I am in a community choir that brings 40-50 people per engagement and let's be honest....we PUT IT DOWN! Because we are new, our fee is $150 for any engagement within an hour's drive. Church/ministry is still a business. You want our group because 1) of our name and 2) of the level of excellence you'll get.
There have been several churches that have gotten upset for us charging a fee, however the main reason you want us is to fatten your attendance (and hopefully your offering). The only time we look at not charging the fee (which is very reasonable for what you're getting) is if we are attending a church of a choir member.
If your job told you that your pay rate will be based on the percentage of profit made during the pay period.......
SO TRUE AND VERY WELL STATED VT!!! THIS IS IT RIGHT HERE DOC!! AND THATS A RAPP!!! Bishop Cole 8)
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sounds like an apple and oranges and apple-orange fruit drink debate is going on here .. but I may be missing something
1 person is saying if you are about your father's business then you will be willing to do it for free
1 person is saying if you are getting paid then I want to get paid also, no point in you using me to get richer
1 person is saying while the 1st person is right, most if not all of these "events" are to make money not about our Father's Business
Did I get that right?
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sounds like an apple and oranges and apple-orange fruit drink debate is going on here .. but I may be missing something
1 person is saying if you are about your father's business then you will be willing to do it for free
1 person is saying if you are getting paid then I want to get paid also, no point in you using me to get richer
1 person is saying while the 1st person is right, most if not all of these "events" are to make money not about our Father's Business
Did I get that right?
Don't know and I ain't going through the four pages to find out, either. *kanyeshrug* :-\ :D
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Don't know and I ain't going through the four pages to find out, either. *kanyeshrug* :-\ :D
lol