LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: browntree on June 22, 2010, 02:58:50 PM
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I'm going to start by saying I believe church is the only place that allows terrible musicians to play...
I have become so frustrated with our music ministry, I don't know what to do. Over the years, I've watched it diminish... I've watched the church run off talented, professional musicians and I've watched them bring in under-skilled musicians who simply cannot cut it. Each time I try to give my opinion on how the music ministry is in shambles, people just look at me like I'm making it up. As an example here's what I'm talking about:
-the pianists don't attempt to learn the songs like the cd.
-the pianists work the transpose button like a two-dollar hooker, forgetting to reset it before songs. Choir singing in the rafters because the pianists are idiots.
-the drummers don't learn the intros/outros or breaks of a song. The idea of locking in with the drummer is just that...an idea.
-I learn the song like the cd, but can't even play the bass line because the songs become so disjointed and convoluted.
-there are NO musician's rehearsals.
-A/V always has the piano up above everything else no matter how many Sundays people say..."I don't hear any bass...all I hear is piano".
When I try to bring up the fact that all of this is bad, bad, bad, I get the typical look..."humm you think you are better than everybody else..." I feel as if I'm being forced into resignation... there are some Sundays I'm am absolutely embarrassed because I know it sounds like noise! I refuse to contribute to noise. Short of quitting, what more can I do? Why is there an idea that half-doing is ok for God?
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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I believe we had a similar problem once (I was fairly young)
So what happened was we had a workshop. the church brought in someone else who is impartial. Everyone was excited to learn something new and to be better. Everyone was on one accord because we all knew we would get better if we put in the work.
The person in charge of the workshop touched on a lot of things that we as a whole were struggling with.
Drums not being tuned properly
Certain sections of the choir not singing correctly
Ennouciation
How the pianist is supposed to play the song
We only learned like 1 - 3 songs (I can't remember) But as long as you let someone else do the talking they just might listen.
You could always pitch it as
"Everyone, I'm glad we are all trying to praise God with our various gifts. I heard there was So and So doing workshops for choirs. If we were to do that we would be even better."
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I feel your frustration. It is hard to be tolerant of mediocrity when you know it can be better. I have faced similar situations over the last couple of years. This is by no means the only way to approach this situation, but it worked for me.
1. I asked the Lord to show me His heart in the situation, then I asked him to show me my heart.
2. I asked the Lord did He want me to stay or leave.
3. I asked the Lord who should I start working with. Once that was accomplished, I asked who was the next person, and so on, until we saw change for the good
4. WE asked the Lord if He was pleased with the changes, then we vowed never to let things get so bad.
So, my brother, is there at least one person you think you could collaborate with to change the atmosphere? Maybe come in for a rehearsal or work on a song together, that the others just happen to hear? I am a person who normally just puts my shoulder to the grindstone and could care less if someone gets trampled in the process. But following the Lord's leading and working with just one person had a tremendous effect on me and brought great change. Why? Because by example, we showed everyone else that the extra effort was not just worth it, but was necessary in order to show others that a spirit of excellence was essential. We had to simplify what we played until everyone caught on, but it did two things: it made people step up or step away, not because we told them to leave, but because they knew they couldn't commit to the effort to play well together. So I pray that you will find just one person to help you make a difference, which becomes two people and so on... stay the course my brother.
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If you have done everything humanly possible...... Pray!
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Man we are experiencing that as well.
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Yo I had the same problem.... I went with the music Pastor because he was my old high school music teacher and he needed help to I followed him there.... He decided it was time to move on but the Church wanted me to stay on.... All I can say is that it was nothing but low class musicians, low class worship, low class mentality... Now this is a huge Church with a top of the line system!!!! This is what I did;
I went to the Pastors and people who mattered and talked to them about it, I had most of the Church behind me... Nothing changed..... I volunteered my services (I am a working professional) they turned it down...... I left the Church!!!! I had to.... It was a hindrance in the way I worship and against all me beliefs when it comes to worship, I found a Church that needed my talents and had the high standard of worship I was looking for and use to. I do agree, Church is one of the only places where they will use the worst musicians they have....
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I'm going to start by saying I believe church is the only place that allows terrible musicians to play...
I have become so frustrated with our music ministry, I don't know what to do. Over the years, I've watched it diminish... I've watched the church run off talented, professional musicians and I've watched them bring in under-skilled musicians who simply cannot cut it. Each time I try to give my opinion on how the music ministry is in shambles, people just look at me like I'm making it up. As an example here's what I'm talking about:
-the pianists don't attempt to learn the songs like the cd.
-the pianists work the transpose button like a two-dollar hooker, forgetting to reset it before songs. Choir singing in the rafters because the pianists are idiots.
-the drummers don't learn the intros/outros or breaks of a song. The idea of locking in with the drummer is just that...an idea.
-I learn the song like the cd, but can't even play the bass line because the songs become so disjointed and convoluted.
-there are NO musician's rehearsals.
-A/V always has the piano up above everything else no matter how many Sundays people say..."I don't hear any bass...all I hear is piano".
When I try to bring up the fact that all of this is bad, bad, bad, I get the typical look..."humm you think you are better than everybody else..." I feel as if I'm being forced into resignation... there are some Sundays I'm am absolutely embarrassed because I know it sounds like noise! I refuse to contribute to noise. Short of quitting, what more can I do? Why is there an idea that half-doing is ok for God?
Browntree
I am certainly not a stellar player... and we have musicians of varying skill levels at my church.. but the above is just.... totally unacceptable... How can you have no rehearsals... ? Sure not everyone reads.. I don't.. not well anyway.. but I can follow chord charts.. but in the absence of this.. you need so e starting reference point.. if not sheets then the CD.. That's too bad..... because these people are obviously not playing for anyone but themselves... not the congregation.. and I am in no position to judge.. but if this is what they want to offer up to GOD... Umph... That's too bad... :-\ I feel for you.. because it is hard to just swallow it and say "Well I'll offer up mine...." when you know the plate is is on is so dirty...
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Each time I try to give my opinion on how the music ministry is in shambles, people just look at me like I'm making it up.
when i read this i was like "Browntree, since when u go to my church?" lol
Its not that church is the only place that allows terrible musicians to play, its the only place where the people who make those decisions cant tell the difference!!!!!
what you probably should do is record the musicians playing the songs and play it back for them to prove its how u say it is. Maybe even play the CD version right before or after to show the difference. U know what, dont even say its ya'll. Just be like "I want you to hear something i recorded" and after they make their criticisms about it u can say "that was US on sunday!" and then they'll feel stupid.....hopefully.
now some songs, everybody cant do like the CD due to the limitations of either the choir or the musicians themselves, but thats no excuse to just throw out everything. thats how my organist is. I dont think he's done an intro a day in his life until I got there. I remember playing and the director looked at me and said "what are u playing?" and im like "ummmm.......the INTRO!!!!". thats how so used to not doing intros they were. It was to the point where the drummer didnt even know how to count off, because he never was required to. I had to teach him that when i started playing. see how some people's laziness can corrupt so many others.
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I really wont to chime in to this post, but for fear of a flame war starting I will reserve my opinions on the matter... I have been on all sides of this scenario, and seen it from different perspectives.
I would recommend anyone, who sincerly wants to worship God in a church setting check out this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Worshiping-Artist-Equipping-Ministry-Worship/dp/031027334X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277352319&sr=8-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Worshiping-Artist-Equipping-Ministry-Worship/dp/031027334X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277352319&sr=8-3)
I have only gotten a few chapters into it, the creative arts team at Church is doing a weekly study in it.
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Thx my fellow bass players. I don't feel alone anymore.
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Its not that church is the only place that allows terrible musicians to play, its the only place where the people who make those decisions cant tell the difference!!!!!
You have said a mouth full right here. This is so true.
Let me be clear about some of the things I said. Ultimately, all the things I've described in my initial post hinder our level of true praise and worship. If you wonder why people aren't on their feet and giving praise, it might be because of them wrong notes and sloppy playing.
Our church is going through major transitions right now, but I've attempted to discuss this with deacons, MOMs, and even the pastor/clergy. I really am the only versatile, committed musician that's left. Everyone else has left because of the things we've listed and because of terrible pay (don't get me started there). It was a totally different story about 5 years ago. Spiritually our music ministry was exploding and you could hear it in the music. BBdrumer, you made a great point about being a hinderence to worship.
I am seriously considering stepping down from the music ministry. I think the people at the church really like what's happening at the church (like you said floaded27). I just feel like my continual participation condones the poor actions. Maybe they will take me seriously when they attempt to replace me only to find out what I've been saying is right. I even feel like my level of musicianship is declining. It's tough being the only one who wants to get it right...all of it...
We as Levites are responsible for leading in praise and worship. If we can't do it in excellence then who can???
It's good to know I'm not alone, and it's bad to know I'm not alone.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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While I agree wholeheartedly with what has been written before--and still experience most of it--let me offer three slightly different perspectives:
1. In many cases, the individuals in question (other musicians, minister of music, sound board technician, etc.) are in those positions because
a. the Church can't find someone else more qualified
b. the Church can't find someone willing to do the job at the salary being offered
c. there is favoritism, nepotism or "tenure" in play
2. As musicians we have standards. Standards for our level of musicianship, standards for how much we practice, standards for how we feel the music should sound on Sunday morning. So do others. Their standards may be higher or lower than ours, but they have them. In that regard, "half doing" is subjective. The challenge is to find a group of individuals whose standards are more or less the same, and hopefully those same folk are of the right Spirit to actively participate in a Music Ministry. (See #1)
3. Very often the Music Ministry is no different that other Church ministries in terms of disorganization, lack of communication, and folks being on different pages. Attend an Usher Board meeting and you will probably hear more of less the same issues (some people don't wear the right uniform or don't take up collection properly or don't come to usher practice or...you get the idea)
I come home from rehearsals and wife will ask me, "How did rehearsal go?" My response is usually, "Sunday is going to be a train wreck.", and then I go into all the things that didn't go the way I think they should have gone. But the key word in all of this is "I". None of this is about me. It is all about Christ and lifting up His name in praise. There's no way that I can ever know if He is pleased with what we do on Sunday morning, but I can check myself and my attitude and have a pretty good idea of if He is pleased with what I do on Sunday morning. Yes, all those things that bug us are going to happen, and if we leave our church and go to another, the same things will likely happen there too. And yes, we should strive to be the best we can be as part of a ministry and enourage others to give their best as well. But when it is all sang and played, we can only control what we do and how we present ourselves in that ministry.
Continue to come here and vent, family, because then you know that you are not alone. We are a wonderful support group one for another. Pray without ceasing, for the ministry, for the individuals in the ministry, for the congregation, for the pastor and officers. Continue to maintain your standards, for others are watching and learning from you.
Finally, wash your hands and pray before you play. God will take care of the rest. :)
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We dont have musicians practices at my current church either but all of the musicians learn as much of the changes and extra things as we can before compng to practice. Then about fifteen minutes before practice we get together and decide what we will do and wont do but because the band is on one accord it sound professional. You dont neccesarily have to play songs verbatim on the cd. because alot of times what people dont realize is that the cds are recorded by pros who put in alot more practice time than we do per song. They have no other job or classes just the music. So its also possible that sometimes we set the standard too high. if you know other musicians are not capable of certain parts you cant expect them to find some hidden talent in two hours.
sometimes we even add stuff as a band that is not in the cd. but the thing that makes the music sound great is not always the licks and fancy transitions but the presence of a solid band instead of a group of musicians, because in many gospel songs with many complicated transitions and passages those parts are actually not necesary and sometimes added to the recording in the studio after the live part has been recorded. most non musically inclined people wont even notice that those parts were left out on sunday but they will notice that the band seemed disconnected for some reason or the other.
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Why are you still there? If you think you can fix it, then do something about it. If not, then walk away. I guarantee that you're not making the situation better as is, because of all the discord. Would you play for a sports team that never practiced or didn't play very well? There are two places where no matter how bad things get, people never leave: church music ministries and the place where they work. If your job is causing you misery, find another one and if the music ministry is hindering your praise....
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I think your idea of recoding it and playing it back is a good one. Also... it is not so much that the musicianship is so bad that is the real issue.. but that no one seems to want to make it better. While it is true that it isnt about you.. you also have to ask yourself.. and those others.. what the poor quality of the musical offering says to those who you are serving.. If they can't see the need for change.. then perhaps you should move on.
We dont have musicians practices at my current church either but all of the musicians learn as much of the changes and extra things as we can before compng to practice. Then about fifteen minutes before practice we get together and decide what we will do and wont do but because the band is on one accord it sound professional. You dont neccesarily have to play songs verbatim on the cd. because alot of times what people dont realize is that the cds are recorded by pros who put in alot more practice time than we do per song. They have no other job or classes just the music. So its also possible that sometimes we set the standard too high. if you know other musicians are not capable of certain parts you cant expect them to find some hidden talent in two hours.
I am confused though.. when you say you don't have musician's practices.. do you mean you just have one practice for everyone? That's what we do... at least for the praise teams... we don't have seperate musician's practices either if that's what you mean.. but everyone tries to come prepared and everyone holds everyone else accountable to a degree... we all have bad days... or days where we just make a mistake.. Like one day I got the list and it said "Great God".. so all week long I rehearsed the one whee the ladies start off... "Glory and honor dominion and power, now and forever oh LORD GOD magnificent..." and I was pumped .. because it was a complicated song.. but I had it down pretty good... but when I got to rehearsal we were doing the one that starts off with that Arabian nights guitar line... and is more rockish.. needless to say I was let down... and to make it worse I had never even heard the song... I got it down by Sunday .. but...
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Why are you still there? If you think you can fix it, then do something about it. If not, then walk away. I guarantee that you're not making the situation better as is, because of all the discord.
I think your comments above pose an interesting question. I'm not really the kind of person who jumps ship because there is trouble. And yes...I would play for a terrible team (if I'm getting paid). I'm a paid musician of the church, with the key word being "a"... I'm one of many. I've tried to lead by example and motivate others to be cohesive musically and spiritually, not exacerbating the situation through discord.
However I think it's probably time I move on and allow someone else to assume the position. I heard a good sermon a couple weeks ago on moving on so God can bless you and bless someone else. He talked about not "staking claim" on positions in the church (1c from dhagler).
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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browntree, what if God has you there to mentor one person in the midst of this sea of mediocrity? Imagine that there is someone there who is meant for something far beyond the current situation, and the only way they will get out is if you "cover" them so they don't walk away with a bad experience?
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browntree, what if God has you there to mentor one person in the midst of this sea of mediocrity? Imagine that there is someone there who is meant for something far beyond the current situation, and the only way they will get out is if you "cover" them so they don't walk away with a bad experience?
Good point...and I've walked in that for the past few years. I've been stressed out! I've been playing there now 10 years, and I know God has more for me. I've asked and desired more, and I am preparing for more. I don't know how it's going to come, but I know it's coming. I'm continuing to pray about it. I don't usually do or make rash decisions (usually...lol).
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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Why are you still there? If you think you can fix it, then do something about it. If not, then walk away. I guarantee that you're not making the situation better as is, because of all the discord. Would you play for a sports team that never practiced or didn't play very well? There are two places where no matter how bad things get, people never leave: church music ministries and the place where they work. If your job is causing you misery, find another one and if the music ministry is hindering your praise....
browntree, what if God has you there to mentor one person in the midst of this sea of mediocrity? Imagine that there is someone there who is meant for something far beyond the current situation, and the only way they will get out is if you "cover" them so they don't walk away with a bad experience?
...
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phbrown, not quite sure how to respond...
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Don't worry about it Kev,
I think i was going to say something about how at first you were saying he should leave and then you were saying he should stay. It was just a little confusing to me.
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I've been considering leaving my church the last week. I've been at this point a number of times before but I stayed. I look back over the years and God has blessed me. We as musicans have gotten better but nothing has really changed. I've seen the same cycles. I told a few friends to pray. I look back at the time I've been there 16 years. Now I'm counting the years and checking my work. If God doesn't do something soon I'm really not sure what I'm going to do. This next 6 months will be critical as I may be gone if things don't "really" change.
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I just don't understand ministries. Why do they not focus on the music department? These are reason, good musicians leave churches and stop playing period, go play at other churches, or go to secular gigs. Then we get looked up differently when we attempt to address various issues with the pastor or those in charge. SMH. I've been there as well. I just emailed my praise and worship leader this week telling her that I'm at a road block and feel like I'm not progressing musically and spiritually because we don't rehearse at all. Seriously!!!! Our gift and talents are being raped because we at the church can pick up material within 5 minutes and then they expect us to play and sing those songs immediately. Well, instead of me playing out of feeling, I'm thinking with my playing therefore I'm missing my opportunity to worship through my playing. People just don't understand.
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Some random observations:
1. Very often we choose songs based on who comes to rehearsal instead of tying songs to the message. I don't ever know the message in advance. Perhaps our MOM does but he doesn't share that information with us. Seems to me that the pastor should meet with the MOM, and out of that meeting should come a song list (it doesn't matter to me whose idea the songs are). The MOM would then communicate those songs to the musicians and the choir. Am I being idealistic in my thinking? Who determines the songs on Sunday at your church?
2. I wonder if churches who employ full time musicians have the same problems as those who employ part time musicians. Perhaps part time musicians don't take the position as seriously and thus don't make time for extra rehearsals, meetings, etc. If any of you are employed full time by a church, please chime in. :)
3.
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Some random observations:
1. Very often we choose songs based on who comes to rehearsal instead of tying songs to the message. I don't ever know the message in advance. Perhaps our MOM does but he doesn't share that information with us. Seems to me that the pastor should meet with the MOM, and out of that meeting should come a song list (it doesn't matter to me whose idea the songs are). The MOM would then communicate those songs to the musicians and the choir. Am I being idealistic in my thinking? Who determines the songs on Sunday at your church?
2. I wonder if churches who employ full time musicians have the same problems as those who employ part time musicians. Perhaps part time musicians don't take the position as seriously and thus don't make time for extra rehearsals, meetings, etc. If any of you are employed full time by a church, please chime in. :)
3.
1. In my case, the MOM or Praise and Worship leader is the wife of the Pastor, so therefore, she should know the message and pick the songs accordingly. Even with that, we don't rehearse.
2. I'm part time and would put in the extra time for rehearsals because I'm that passionate about my music and playing to the best of my ability to God.
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2. I'm part time and would put in the extra time for rehearsals because I'm that passionate about my music and playing to the best of my ability to God.
I'm with you, dd!
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Kev I think you hit the nail right on the head with you comments.
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Our pastor gave us a general rule of what he wants for Sunday morning. Worship songs, hymns, anthems. He like wordy songs with substance. Reason for this is his generation. I think is in your church structure. Usually the teaching ministry perpare sermons for the week. At my church you dont always know who is going to preach. So youve got to be prayed up. At my church if you are in tune to what is going on around you will know what songs to sing. I think if you pray and first play what the the pastor wants and stick to music that will edify the whole body you will choose the right songs.
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How much time do your musicians have to learn a song? How many new songs must they learn per week/song cycle/whatever?
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He like wordy songs with substance. Reason for this is his generation. I think is in your church structure.
Man that's a whole subject by itself..lol.
I'm on the side of your pastor though. What I've realized lately is that most of these "Gospel" songs now-a-days either don't mention Jesus, try to sound to "urban", or just repeat the same 6 words for 6-8 minutes and have no real message to them.
There are some good urban "wordy" songs though. Surgery is a perfect example.
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Man that's a whole subject by itself..lol.
I'm on the side of your pastor though. What I've realized lately is that most of these "Gospel" songs now-a-days either don't mention Jesus, try to sound to "urban", or just repeat the same 6 words for 6-8 minutes and have no real message to them.
There are some good urban "wordy" songs though. Surgery is a perfect example.
He likes THESE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9liAce6Cj4#) type of songs. I love them. Other musicans and leaders that's a different story. We some what give him what he wants.
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I just don't understand ministries. Why do they not focus on the music department? These are reason, good musicians leave churches and stop playing period, go play at other churches, or go to secular gigs. Then we get looked up differently when we attempt to address various issues with the pastor or those in charge. SMH. I've been there as well. I just emailed my praise and worship leader this week telling her that I'm at a road block and feel like I'm not progressing musically and spiritually because we don't rehearse at all. Seriously!!!! Our gift and talents are being raped because we at the church can pick up material within 5 minutes and then they expect us to play and sing those songs immediately. Well, instead of me playing out of feeling, I'm thinking with my playing therefore I'm missing my opportunity to worship through my playing. People just don't understand.
Man I sooooo feel everything you said bro. I'm not saying it's every church, but it definitely a lot of them. I honestly believe it's a power issue. Our churches (I should say clergy) have fallen victim to "popularity". They want to control... The pastors/ministers/deacons like that feeling of being in charge and their roles being the most important in the church. They are so afraid people will come for the music, but it's called the MUSIC MINISTRY!
We have bibles that we read, but we ignore the most obvious. For example, Jesus Christ ministered to people in different ways. Isn't that why we have different ministries at our church??? To effectively minister to people in different ways? Through music...dance...the word... etc...
I really believe it's a fear of loosing mind control on the people... they won't "do what I tell them" mentality. Some of the most free, dedicated, fervent worshipers I've seen were in the music ministry...not the pulpit... Now that's got me smh...
btw, I'm drafting my resignation letter for the end of July. I just got back from Baltimore with the Male Chorus, and I'm going to Orlando with the other choir, and I'll step down. I have to believe God has more for me, and I know I have more to give to Him.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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Man I sooooo feel everything you said bro. I'm not saying it's every church, but it definitely a lot of them. I honestly believe it's a power issue. Our churches (I should say clergy) have fallen victim to "popularity". They want to control... The pastors/ministers/deacons like that feeling of being in charge and their roles being the most important in the church. They are so afraid people will come for the music, but it's called the MUSIC MINISTRY!
We have bibles that we read, but we ignore the most obvious. For example, Jesus Christ ministered to people in different ways. Isn't that why we have different ministries at our church??? To effectively minister to people in different ways? Through music...dance...the word... etc...
I really believe it's a fear of loosing mind control on the people... they won't "do what I tell them" mentality. Some of the most free, dedicated, fervent worshipers I've seen were in the music ministry...not the pulpit... Now that's got me smh...
btw, I'm drafting my resignation letter for the end of July. I just got back from Baltimore with the Male Chorus, and I'm going to Orlando with the other choir, and I'll step down. I have to believe God has more for me, and I know I have more to give to Him.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
I feel ya on the control issue. Ironically on yesterday's message the Pastor spoke about Christians quitting and complaining. Its ironic to me because earlier this week, one of our musicians stepped down completed from the music department because issues that have arose and nothing was done about it. They also recieved my email this week in regards to rehearsals, so I'm assuming he is thinking that I'm complaining. Now, this has happened before where I kept asking for information in regards to a major concert that we was having with a major artist. We never recieved anything until the day of. In the "ONE" rehearsal before the concert, he sat down with all the musicians and stated that we needed to have a mind of not complaining about this and that. Well, when we finally sit down and talk amongst everyone, my 1st question will be, "Can you effective give a message to the people without preparing at all?" It doesn't matter what we already know, its matters if we are prepared with what we know.
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To provide a contrast, let me ask this question: do you think Brooklyn Tabernacle has any problems with getting people together for practice? If you are unfamiliar with them, please take a moment, go on Youtube, type in their name and watch a video or two. So what is it that Carol Cymbala is doing so special the rest of us find hard to create within our music ministries? It's all about stated purpose and ground rules. We are focusing on the music ministry because this is a music oriented site, but the issues of discipline and order are present in every entity; where order and purpose are established, good results are produced; the lack thereof produces many of the outcomes being discussed in this thread. As an individual in the midst of a less than ideal situation, ask yourself, "is what I am experiencing indicative of what occurs throughout our ministry or is it isolated? If it is isolated, why is the same level of order and discipline not being applied to the music ministry as to other ministries?" Ultimately, if those who have the ability to impose order and discipline neglect to do so, you are in a very hard place, because there is nothing worse than apathy. Unless you find a way to spark people into caring, you will find yourself taking on that same spirit. Stay armored up.
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To provide a contrast, let me ask this question: do you think Brooklyn Tabernacle has any problems with getting people together for practice? If you are unfamiliar with them, please take a moment, go on Youtube, type in their name and watch a video or two. So what is it that Carol Cymbala is doing so special the rest of us find hard to create within our music ministries? It's all about stated purpose and ground rules. We are focusing on the music ministry because this is a music oriented site, but the issues of discipline and order are present in every entity; where order and purpose are established, good results are produced; the lack thereof produces many of the outcomes being discussed in this thread. As an individual in the midst of a less than ideal situation, ask yourself, "is what I am experiencing indicative of what occurs throughout our ministry or is it isolated? If it is isolated, why is the same level of order and discipline not being applied to the music ministry as to other ministries?" Ultimately, if those who have the ability to impose order and discipline neglect to do so, you are in a very hard place, because there is nothing worse than apathy. Unless you find a way to spark people into caring, you will find yourself taking on that same spirit. Stay armored up.
Taken directly from the church's website about the choir:
"Starting each practice with prayer reinforces that principle. Even the rehearsal prior to the Sunday services are all closed in prayer as the choir asks the Lord to bless their music and anoint their songs for the service. “The great evangelist D.L. Moody found that the tender strains of the Gospel could open people’s hearts to the music of the soul,” Pastor Cymbala says, “and I find that the choir greatly facilitates the ministry that goes on here. In their own uniquely sincere and almost vulnerable way, some by not being trained singers, while others are coming from totally non-religious backgrounds, they are able to display an openness, a transparent ‘heartfeltness’ that opens up and triggers the same thing in other people.”
They PRACTICE!!!!! And with these practices, they have prayer and worship so that they can meditate on what their purpose is. This is what most of the music departments discussed in this thread are not doing.
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for the Brooklyn Tabernacle example, i find that a large part of it has to do with the church structure. I tend to find that with bigger churches like that each ministry is independent of one another, meaning you dont have the same people responsible for each ministry, so they can often operate regardless of what the others are doing. So when the choir needs to rehearse, it doesnt matter that the dance ministry is doing a performance somewhere else or the missions ministry is doing a drive on that same day. But when you have a church where the same people over the choir and the core people that do the work, are the same ones that keep the dance ministry and missions ministry operational and functioning, you can see where the problem is. One ministry sacrifices for another because the same people are involved. And its NOT because people always want to be in charge of stuff and have egos, sometimes its out of necessity often because others wont/cant step up to the plate and the work still needs to be done.
In some churches, you are not allowed to be part of more than one ministry. But when you need to keep things operational, sometimes those restrictions cannot apply, and yes there will be sacrifices elsewhere.
So when people are overworked and overwhelmed its harder to have such structure. So i think theres more involved than one ministry prays and the other doesnt.
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Man I sooooo feel everything you said bro. I'm not saying it's every church, but it definitely a lot of them. I honestly believe it's a power issue. Our churches (I should say clergy) have fallen victim to "popularity". They want to control... The pastors/ministers/deacons like that feeling of being in charge and their roles being the most important in the church. They are so afraid people will come for the music, but it's called the MUSIC MINISTRY!
this is not always the case though. My pastor isnt musically inclined at all, but the fact that all the time he's been at our church under our former pastor, we hadnt had a very well oiled machine that is a music ministry. So not only has he had to make due in spite of and adjust for all these years, since the majority of the churches we fellowship with have crappy music ministries, he really doesnt have a frame of reference. He does know that we are in better shape than some other churches he's been to, and i can testify to that, but he hasnt seen the possibilities of what we could become. Also I think he, like many other pastors, dont understand the full power of an organized music ministry because its NEVER been there. And a large part of our players have been on the beginner/intermediate level. Once they get to the next level, circumstances have them leaving. So part of it is skill level, we've never had all highly skilled musicians in place at the same time, so its hard for anybody at our church to know what that looks or sounds like. (I bet Brooklyn Tabernacle dont have that problem)
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To provide a contrast, let me ask this question: do you think Brooklyn Tabernacle has any problems with getting people together for practice? If you are unfamiliar with them, please take a moment, go on Youtube, type in their name and watch a video or two. So what is it that Carol Cymbala is doing so special the rest of us find hard to create within our music ministries? It's all about stated purpose and ground rules. We are focusing on the music ministry because this is a music oriented site, but the issues of discipline and order are present in every entity; where order and purpose are established, good results are produced; the lack thereof produces many of the outcomes being discussed in this thread. As an individual in the midst of a less than ideal situation, ask yourself, "is what I am experiencing indicative of what occurs throughout our ministry or is it isolated? If it is isolated, why is the same level of order and discipline not being applied to the music ministry as to other ministries?" Ultimately, if those who have the ability to impose order and discipline neglect to do so, you are in a very hard place, because there is nothing worse than apathy. Unless you find a way to spark people into caring, you will find yourself taking on that same spirit. Stay armored up.
[rant on]
Oh, I can feel you as far as control and preparation issues are concerned. ::)
Yesterday was Youth Sunday at our church, youth choir was supposed to practice before service. I sat at the keyboard 30 min. before, only to be told that the kids were outside, playing on the Jolly Jumper (I joked under my breath about going outside and putting a knife through that thing). First Lady chased them into the kids' room for me, about 5 min before, and we barely had time to go over our songs before Pastor and a Deacon signaled us through the door to stop. We ended up starting 5 min. late (and I am NEVER late, even though this church is famous for half the congregation dragging in 20-30 min after service starts), and the kids did all right, but...
Have come to the conclusion that the best thing for me is to pray, prepare the best I can, and to LET IT GO and STEP BACK - some people may see the good example and follow, but IMO there will always be some Knuckleheads in the house...
[rant off]
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To provide a contrast, let me ask this question: do you think Brooklyn Tabernacle has any problems with getting people together for practice? If you are unfamiliar with them, please take a moment, go on Youtube, type in their name and watch a video or two. So what is it that Carol Cymbala is doing so special the rest of us find hard to create within our music ministries? It's all about stated purpose and ground rules. We are focusing on the music ministry because this is a music oriented site, but the issues of discipline and order are present in every entity; where order and purpose are established, good results are produced; the lack thereof produces many of the outcomes being discussed in this thread. As an individual in the midst of a less than ideal situation, ask yourself, "is what I am experiencing indicative of what occurs throughout our ministry or is it isolated? If it is isolated, why is the same level of order and discipline not being applied to the music ministry as to other ministries?" Ultimately, if those who have the ability to impose order and discipline neglect to do so, you are in a very hard place, because there is nothing worse than apathy. Unless you find a way to spark people into caring, you will find yourself taking on that same spirit. Stay armored up.
You are right...I'll give you that much. Lack of structure is a systemic problem that shows up in every single ministry of our church. The major breakdown is with our MOM. He's been in place for about 1.5 years now, and the person who was in place before had two things this guy doesn't... 1) a true desire to set an atmosphere of praise 2) a loving spirit. He is an "average" musician, if that. And so as not to feel threatened, every musician he's brought in has been equal or below his skill level. The thing is most of the musicians wouldn't be bad if they would just go home and practice! Sitting down at the piano on Sunday and playing wrong notes is unacceptable!!! UNACCEPTABLE! Well for me, because evidently folk at church don't know the difference.
The shocker to me like ddwilkens said...you try to have an honest, Christ-like discussion about improvement and you wind up getting preached about on Sundays...lol... It's pride, envy, and control... playing out over and over again...
But when you have a church where the same people over the choir and the core people that do the work, are the same ones that keep the dance ministry and missions ministry operational and functioning, you can see where the problem is. One ministry sacrifices for another because the same people are involved.
So when people are overworked and overwhelmed its harder to have such structure. So i think theres more involved than one ministry prays and the other doesnt.
This leads to straight burn-out! At one point we had close to 1000 members but you saw the same 100 folk doing all the work.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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this is not always the case though. My pastor isnt musically inclined at all, but the fact that all the time he's been at our church under our former pastor, we hadnt had a very well oiled machine that is a music ministry. So not only has he had to make due in spite of and adjust for all these years, since the majority of the churches we fellowship with have crappy music ministries, he really doesnt have a frame of reference. He does know that we are in better shape than some other churches he's been to, and i can testify to that, but he hasnt seen the possibilities of what we could become. Also I think he, like many other pastors, dont understand the full power of an organized music ministry because its NEVER been there. And a large part of our players have been on the beginner/intermediate level. Once they get to the next level, circumstances have them leaving. So part of it is skill level, we've never had all highly skilled musicians in place at the same time, so its hard for anybody at our church to know what that looks or sounds like. (I bet Brooklyn Tabernacle dont have that problem)
Bingo!!
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....
The shocker to me like ddwilkens said...you try to have an honest, Christ-like discussion about improvement and you wind up getting preached about on Sundays...lol... It's pride, envy, and control... playing out over and over again...
This leads to straight burn-out! At one point we had close to 1000 members but you saw the same 100 folk doing all the work.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
I'm not one for being disobedient, but when this type of stuff comes up, it pisses me off. I feel that pastors are trying to throw the word at you so that they can avoid the real problem. My mother tried that with me during my college years. She told me that I should come home every weekend to play at my home church, which was 1 1/2 hours away driving. I told her I couldn't all the time because I would either be studying, visit a local church with friends, or just didn't feel like driving home. She told me that I should have faith and that God would reward me in my grades. I told her, "faith without works is dead." I never heard anything from her again. So, I'm trying to refrain from just being very outspoken with my Pastor in regards to our current situation because, I don't fluff up my words. I call a spade, a spade. I'm straight forward with my conversations. So, sometimes it comes off as being harsh or disrespectful. I pray all of our situations get fixed.
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Sorry to hear that you decided it is best that you leave Browntree.
I empathize with your situation and I hope and pray that you find a place where you can happily praise God.
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This is probably not sit well with many people, but ministries that are not established on foundation of structure, discipline, focus will always suffer the very outcomes that many of you have expressed. There is no logical reason for us to place people who are not trained into any staff position in church. They don't have to be trained prior to being appointed, but their very next task should always be training, regardless of the sacrifice. Rather expound on the subject here, Evangelical Training Association has an excellent book called "Biblical Leadership". I challenge anyone to find a biblical example of someone being annointed, but never trained. Whether its Moses in Pharoahs court, The 3 Hebrew boys in Nebuchadnezzar II court or Saul of Tarshish, God always made provision for their training and development. A music ministry that is a hotbed of discord and disarray is a clear indicator that true, biblical mentorship and leadership is not present. As I said before, you can decide to walk away or you can realize that you are there for a different assignment, like making sure one person gets through this experience so they can fulfill their purpose. Music is the one place where the Church should the greatest degree of unity, yet we often fail at the task, because the idea of sacrificing my one sound for the sake of making greater one is contrary to the individualism of our culture. Think of all the egos involved in assembling a symphony orchestra, yet they all perform together because they understand their purpose: to make one beautiful, emotive sound. Oh that the Church would embrace this ideal! One Voice, lifted up to One God, directed by One Spirit, to glorify Our One Lord and Savior!
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This is probably not sit well with many people, but ministries that are not established on foundation of structure, discipline, focus will always suffer the very outcomes that many of you have expressed. There is no logical reason for us to place people who are not trained into any staff position in church. They don't have to be trained prior to being appointed, but their very next task should always be training, regardless of the sacrifice. Rather expound on the subject here, Evangelical Training Association has an excellent book called "Biblical Leadership". I challenge anyone to find a biblical example of someone being annointed, but never trained. Whether its Moses in Pharoahs court, The 3 Hebrew boys in Nebuchadnezzar II court or Saul of Tarshish, God always made provision for their training and development. A music ministry that is a hotbed of discord and disarray is a clear indicator that true, biblical mentorship and leadership is not present. As I said before, you can decide to walk away or you can realize that you are there for a different assignment, like making sure one person gets through this experience so they can fulfill their purpose. Music is the one place where the Church should the greatest degree of unity, yet we often fail at the task, because the idea of sacrificing my one sound for the sake of making greater one is contrary to the individualism of our culture. Think of all the egos involved in assembling a symphony orchestra, yet they all perform together because they understand their purpose: to make one beautiful, emotive sound. Oh that the Church would embrace this ideal! One Voice, lifted up to One God, directed by One Spirit, to glorify Our One Lord and Savior!
Yeah, I can relate to this. At the very least, a church should be able to come up with $25/ week for little johnny to take piano lessons and send music leaders to other churches to study with their music staff. Then, bring all that good training back home.
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As I said before, you can decide to walk away or you can realize that you are there for a different assignment, like making sure one person gets through this experience so they can fulfill their purpose.
Expand upon this a bit more kevmove02...you have said it a couple times, but surely you aren't implying that one should stay in a position for an indefinite amount of time. So I'm not too sure what point you are trying to drive home.
I wouldn't call what I'm doing "walking away" by any means. I have tried to affect change for at least 5 years, after playing for 10. More to the point, I've tried to do it by example and through biblical teaching. So at what point do you think one should move on? Not even God-give assignments are indefinite. I think I've put in a yeoman's work.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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This is probably not sit well with many people, but ministries that are not established on foundation of structure, discipline, focus will always suffer the very outcomes that many of you have expressed. There is no logical reason for us to place people who are not trained into any staff position in church. They don't have to be trained prior to being appointed, but their very next task should always be training, regardless of the sacrifice. Rather expound on the subject here, Evangelical Training Association has an excellent book called "Biblical Leadership". I challenge anyone to find a biblical example of someone being annointed, but never trained. Whether its Moses in Pharoahs court, The 3 Hebrew boys in Nebuchadnezzar II court or Saul of Tarshish, God always made provision for their training and development. A music ministry that is a hotbed of discord and disarray is a clear indicator that true, biblical mentorship and leadership is not present. As I said before, you can decide to walk away or you can realize that you are there for a different assignment, like making sure one person gets through this experience so they can fulfill their purpose. Music is the one place where the Church should the greatest degree of unity, yet we often fail at the task, because the idea of sacrificing my one sound for the sake of making greater one is contrary to the individualism of our culture. Think of all the egos involved in assembling a symphony orchestra, yet they all perform together because they understand their purpose: to make one beautiful, emotive sound. Oh that the Church would embrace this ideal! One Voice, lifted up to One God, directed by One Spirit, to glorify Our One Lord and Savior!
You are right, these churches need structure.
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u know what i've found out.... people have a hard time investing in things that they cant see or discern the results! The "infallible" arguments of "i dont see the difference, so why am i paying for this" "why pay this much for this? doesnt that cheaper one do the same thing" "what is the point of me giving up my time for this" etc. We all do it in different areas of life. And sometimes it DOES keep us from wasting resources. But close-mindedness often have us missing opportunities to enhance and expand ourselves because of a lack of understanding.
I think some people are taking it personally. But think about something. Do you ever notice that most of the churches (thats the case in my experience) that have a crappy music ministry have a crappy sound system? You ever been to a church with brand new pews, brand new offering table and offering plates, top of the line podium, new chandeliers, but as soon as someone get in the mic and start talking they sound like they're at the end of long hallway under a stack of mattresses? Two organs that dont work while the keyboardist sittin at a casio and not a good one (one of the ones they sell at Target)? Drums sound like they're skinned with paper plates? Oh, but the place LOOK nice. U know why because they can SEE the difference. But what they HEAR they cant justify making the investment. And music and sound goes hand in hand.
So when the person/people who manage the resources can understand what the money is going for and can assess the benefits, more than likely the investment will be made if its reasonable/affordable. But if they dont understand and cant make that assessment, the question will be "why do we need to do that?".
So when you get things like "pay for a music director to get training" the question will be "what he need training for? he can figure it out". if u say "little johnny need lessons" u get "he's doing fine. he'll get it soon if he keeps practicing"
So i think the question is how do you get others that dont understand (and some of them are PART OF THE MUSIC MINISTRY) to see that the investment (of both money and time) is necessary and worthwhile? Just saying "because it is" is NOT enough.
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Excellent points floaded27...
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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u know what i've found out.... people have a hard time investing in things that they cant see or discern the results! The "infallible" arguments of "i dont see the difference, so why am i paying for this" "why pay this much for this? doesnt that cheaper one do the same thing" "what is the point of me giving up my time for this" etc. We all do it in different areas of life. And sometimes it DOES keep us from wasting resources. But close-mindedness often have us missing opportunities to enhance and expand ourselves because of a lack of understanding.
I think some people are taking it personally. But think about something. Do you ever notice that most of the churches (thats the case in my experience) that have a crappy music ministry have a crappy sound system? You ever been to a church with brand new pews, brand new offering table and offering plates, top of the line podium, new chandeliers, but as soon as someone get in the mic and start talking they sound like they're at the end of long hallway under a stack of mattresses? Two organs that dont work while the keyboardist sittin at a casio and not a good one (one of the ones they sell at Target)? Drums sound like they're skinned with paper plates? Oh, but the place LOOK nice. U know why because they can SEE the difference. But what they HEAR they cant justify making the investment. And music and sound goes hand in hand.
So when the person/people who manage the resources can understand what the money is going for and can assess the benefits, more than likely the investment will be made if its reasonable/affordable. But if they dont understand and cant make that assessment, the question will be "why do we need to do that?".
So when you get things like "pay for a music director to get training" the question will be "what he need training for? he can figure it out". if u say "little johnny need lessons" u get "he's doing fine. he'll get it soon if he keeps practicing"
So i think the question is how do you get others that dont understand (and some of them are PART OF THE MUSIC MINISTRY) to see that the investment (of both money and time) is necessary and worthwhile? Just saying "because it is" is NOT enough.
This is what I was attempting to say in my first post on this thread.
Basically a lot of times people won't listen to you if it keeps coming from you. So just bring someone else in whose opinion they respect and have them say it.
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This is what I was attempting to say in my first post on this thread.
Basically a lot of times people won't listen to you if it keeps coming from you. So just bring someone else in whose opinion they respect and have them say it.
You are right... and to add to your point, them cheapskates at my church won't bring in someone else to deliver an opinion. They did it once with the A/V. The guy came in and said "you guys have spiritual issues along with the technical ones..."
Guess what happened???
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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Do you ever notice that most of the churches (thats the case in my experience) that have a crappy music ministry have a crappy sound system?
We have a state-of-the-art sound system, but (1) received little training on how to use it; (2) the ones who operate it are not receptive to constructive criticism; (3) the system had a major mechanical problem but the folks holding the purse strings won't spend the money to have it fixed properly. I stopped going through the house a long time ago because I felt I could control my sound better from my amp.
Have come to the conclusion that the best thing for me is to pray, prepare the best I can, and to LET IT GO and STEP BACK - some people may see the good example and follow
+1. That's where I finally had to go. I believe very strongly that prayer works, because in my situation some things have indeed gotten better.
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The guy came in and said "you guys have spiritual issues along with the technical ones..."
WOW! LOL sorry I don't mean to laugh but wow ...
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WOW! LOL sorry I don't mean to laugh but wow ...
Lol...it's ok to laugh...trust me I have. We brought the head of A/V in from one of the local churches. He managed a sound team of about 15 people at a fairly large church. He was of the opinion the equipment was good. However the relationships between A/V and the choirs were terrible. And, the training of sound people was definitely needed. His point which I totally agree with is that A/V is supposed to be a tool that enhances praise and worship...not stifles it. Again, A/V was another form of control at our church. What I found so funny was that the preacher's mikes were ALWAYS working and louder than anything else. The choir members would beg and plead through rehearsal to have the lead vocal gain increased only to not be able to hear on Sunday still. But everybody could hear the pastor though... smh...
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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I'm new to the LGM scene and it's quite upsetting to hear you guys talk about what others are not doing. God have BLESSED alot of you guys to play and us newbies are trying to get to where you all are. Nobody's perfect, but sometimes we have to remember to look in the mirror. Put GOD first and stop running away. Sometimes you'll find yourself in an messed up world trying to get back to where you started. Everyboy can't be a hero. I hope I did not step on anybody toes. Sometimes the truth hurts, but think about before you respond. I'm hear to get some knowledge from you pros. All the post that I read, tell me to never quit, but when you run from one Church to Church #10, then what is that. I'm sorry for this response, but I just don't want to read about what others can't do. This makes me feel that a musician may leave due to my shortcomings and won't stay around to work with me. God Bless!!!!!
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You are not stepping on anyone toes. And you are right to a certain extent but based on what was presented in this thread (which granted is only one side) sometimes the best thing to do is to separate.
Matthew 10:14
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
No hard feelings, just sometimes as a musician (especially a paid musician) you will not get along with everyone and whether than constantly fight week after week reduce the stress in your life and find a group of Christians you can work with.
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Thanks phBrown and SketchMan3 for words. After I wrote the message, I thought about what each and everyone might have been feeling. I too may find myself in the same boat without a paddle. Once again, I thank you both. I love this site!!!!!!
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The issue as presented here was not poor musicianship but poor musicianship without making efforts to improve. All of us were worse musicians than we are now at some point.
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After reading the posts and contemplating my thoughts. We all have been in this situation at one point or another and some if not all of us work in more than one aspect of ministry in one way or another.
THIS IS MY DISCLAIMER... THIS IS MY SITUATION AND HOW I HANDLED IT.
From my experience that I am currently dealing with I have chosen to go on a sabbatical from playing at church. I still play but I grew tired of the organist/keyboardist blasting through the PA system. The reason we got it was because to level everyone out because the musicians were too loud. I would play at a moderate level and I was told to turn my bass up. My reply was I can't hear you! It's too loud! He said fine do whatever you want. So I did. I focused more on being a better Christian. How can the blind lead the blind lest they fall in a ditch. I can fall in a ditch on my own. I don't need help. So I still play but I refuse to blast my bass. I had a lot of pet peeves. The drummer NEVER came to rehearsals but still played on Sunday and didn't know the song but couldn't keep a steady tempo so now I can't get into the song for worrying about the song speeding up! The volume thing. I've gone to my Pastor who is also the organist father...........and voiced my concerns. Usually I would hear "But your playing enhances the service." So now it's the guilt trip. If I don't play then the service isn't the same. So nobody wanted to listen to what I had to say but they had answers. It is very frustrating. But in all things I give thanks. It's hard but only what I do for Christ will last (where ever you do it.)
Every now and then I'll go visit another church where I don't have to play just to regroup on what's important. Glorifying God. Sometimes I have to step away. Some people don't like it. ;)
My only advice I'm going to give here is this.
Get in the Word and get as close to God as you can. One can never be close enough.
Love y'all
P.S. Didn't mean to rant. I'm still dealing with this. Please pray for me and with me.
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Johnny B.,
Welcome to LGM!
The frustration voiced by many in this thread is NOT directed towards beginning musicians, such as you describe yourself. We have ALL been beginners at some point in time or another. The frustration seems to be around situations where lack of effort and poor practices are tolerated for the sake of just avoiding change, conflict, or growth. Many of us who have experience have been in situations where one or more of the musicians and/or church officials ignore suggestions that would help the music service improve.
This is not to pick on beginners. You'll probably not find a venue more friendly towards beginning musicians than the church.
When musicians take suggestions to turn volume down as an insult, rather than a solution to solving an imbalance, that's a problem. When musicians assume that they don't need to make it to rehearsal because they're good enough to pick it up on the fly, that's a problem. When people change the lineup of songs just before or during the service, that's a problem. These things can become very frustrating to a serious musician. At some point in time, people get fed up with having to deal with chaos that need not be and they walk. Sometimes they walk to another location where the chaos isn't yet widespread, but then it develops......and they walk again.
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The frustration seems to be around situations where lack of effort and poor practices are tolerated for the sake of just avoiding change, conflict, or growth. Many of us who have experience have been in situations where one or more of the musicians and/or church officials ignore suggestions that would help the music service improve.
When musicians take suggestions to turn volume down as an insult, rather than a solution to solving an imbalance, that's a problem. When musicians assume that they don't need to make it to rehearsal because they're good enough to pick it up on the fly, that's a problem. When people change the lineup of songs just before or during the service, that's a problem. These things can become very frustrating to a serious musician. At some point in time, people get fed up with having to deal with chaos that need not be and they walk. Sometimes they walk to another location where the chaos isn't yet widespread, but then it develops......and they walk again.
A lot of my frustrations as a church musician are political. People can't correct each other in a group rehearsal without a spirit of humility and teachability; iron sharpens iron. But when some are in leadership, minister's family or other 'untouchable' cliques, spiritual and musical growth is inhibited. This lack of commitment to excellence is sad but true in so many cases... IMO, a chaotic situation dishonors God...
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That was well said malthumb!!! Thanks
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Think about how many musicians would not be able to play to an audience were it not for the church. Think how many would lose a living wage, or at least a supplementary wage were it not for the church. Think also about the congregations, some who just want music and are willing to pay for it to a degree and whose demands are not that great nor is their musical sophistication at a high level. They don't know a yamaha from a casio or a danelectro from a fender. You have these people playing and in the choir as well. They might be satisfied. They aren't going to pay a lot more money to personnel/for equipment and they aren't gonna listen to very much talk about it.
Many of them think that their musicians can play anything without practice because that is what they have seen. I mean they really think that. If they hear a lot of noise about it, they think the musician is just being hard to deal with. I know so well because I thought the same way,(before I learned to play in my senior years) and still do to a point, according to the musician.(not beginners) My daughter, who is a very good musician and makes a living at it shocked me one day by saying that she really didn't like to play for people off the cuff sometimes. She said, people think musicians can play anything. I said Duh?
For every church where you find a well organized, professional type ensemble, you'll find a hundred as I described above. They won't change. Do the best you can. If the minister and congregation are satisfied, you're flogging a dead horse.
Sometimes a musician can feel stunted in their growth in certain situations. If they are being stunted, they would have to consider leaving for that reason, no hard feelings.
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You know what is bothersome about this situation ( as most of here @ LGM us all haved experience this) is that these people who you address this problem to are the same people who told you ( AND me) that : We are trying to get to the next level.........REALLY !!!!
I hate to say this,,,,but this doesn't go on when I have to go play my secular gigs, and most of those guys doesn't make half of the money that I make per sun. but there is a rehearsal, they all learn the tunes the way they are supposed to be learned, and most of all they show up OWN TIME !!!! :(
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You know what is bothersome about this situation ( as most of here @ LGM us all haved experience this) is that these people who you address this problem to are the same people who told you ( AND me) that : We are trying to get to the next level.........REALLY !!!!
I hate to say this,,,,but this doesn't go on when I have to go play my secular gigs, and most of those guys doesn't make half of the money that I make per sun. but there is a rehearsal, they all learn the tunes the way they are supposed to be learned, and most of all they show up OWN TIME !!!! :(
That is rare. Musicians and singers in general have a bad reputation for being late and unprepared.
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That is rare. Musicians and singers in general have a bad reputation for being late and unprepared.
not tolerated with "old heads I play with .... but Malthumb gave great examples in his reply that when situations like we're mentioning go unaddress then it just "Snowballs out of control ......and that's a "BIG problem for everyone participating in the service...
I have told my fellow musicians at the church were I worship and perform to understand that we've been blessed to be able to do what we like to do and get paid pretty well so we shouldn't get too comfortable to were we don't rehearse, or play are parts as well we are expected to play and perform them, because if we continue to do this, then we could or will be replaced not by other musicians, but by a mp3 player.....the cost.....minimal :-\
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Yeah....Ive sat in at this new church a total of three times. I thought I would want to be on for good but the musicians are in major need of guidance. Ive been on bass for 10 years and have a pretty good knowledge of the instrument and music. Prior to coming to this church I pretty much played with drums, keys and organ.
The new church that I am currently sitting with has a Piano (Plays way too loud and cranks the bass part/left hand), Organ (murders the song with runs, plays too loud, plays on the pedal when a bass player is present..clashes with the piano that cranks the bass part/left hand), Lead Guitar (Solos on the wrong chords/changes constantly turns up to sit on top of organ and piano), Bass (seldomly plays because he cant hear himself over everything stated earlier/doesnt have a great ear/doesnt know what they are going to play until the piano player starts to play/gets frustrated because the piano player will not stop playing the bass part even if the bass knows it/gets these looks from the key player because he turned his bass up so he could hear himself). Drummer (tries to play every lick he knows on every song/has bad timing/has bad feel/doesn't hit the snare hard enough). All I ever hear is just noise......never anything soothing that ushers in the Spirit...the music never can breath. It is so frustrating....I dont want to come off as Mr. This and That. I dont feel as if I have been there long enough to say anything unless asked to. I must admit it is tough. I have left the church services all three times with major headaches and frustrations. The thing that troubles me the most is that everybody except the bass player thinks they are spot on.
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Yeah....Ive sat in at this new church a total of three times. I thought I would want to be on for good but the musicians are in major need of guidance. Ive been on bass for 10 years and have a pretty good knowledge of the instrument and music. Prior to coming to this church I pretty much played with drums, keys and organ.
The new church that I am currently sitting with has a Piano (Plays way too loud and cranks the bass part/left hand), Organ (murders the song with runs, plays too loud, plays on the pedal when a bass player is present..clashes with the piano that cranks the bass part/left hand), Lead Guitar (Solos on the wrong chords/changes constantly turns up to sit on top of organ and piano), Bass (seldomly plays because he cant hear himself over everything stated earlier/doesnt have a great ear/doesnt know what they are going to play until the piano player starts to play/gets frustrated because the piano player will not stop playing the bass part even if the bass knows it/gets these looks from the key player because he turned his bass up so he could hear himself). Drummer (tries to play every lick he knows on every song/has bad timing/has bad feel/doesn't hit the snare hard enough). All I ever hear is just noise......never anything soothing that ushers in the Spirit...the music never can breath. It is so frustrating....I dont want to come off as Mr. This and That. I dont feel as if I have been there long enough to say anything unless asked to. I must admit it is tough. I have left the church services all three times with major headaches and frustrations. The thing that troubles me the most is that everybody except the bass player thinks they are spot on.
I wouldn't mind hearing a clip of this if you can get one. You feel like making an audio recording? You couldask the guys if they mind you making a YouTube clip then post it. Tell the guys where you posted and let them read the comments. :)
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hmm ... interesting let them hear the comments but not directly form you that way you don't become Mr. This and That nice