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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: 4hisglory on December 13, 2010, 12:19:20 PM

Title: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: 4hisglory on December 13, 2010, 12:19:20 PM
Anyone see that that Federal Judge declared the Obama Healthcare unconstitutional?  Don't know a lot about why, just thought it was interesting.  We'll see where this leads. 
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 13, 2010, 01:10:59 PM
I dont follow these things, but I  just googled the story, and it seems like the judge does not think that everyone should have to pay for healthcare if they dont want it. I agree with that. Why should someone who is healthy have to pay for unhealthy people's medical bills?
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: blyempowered on December 13, 2010, 01:51:17 PM
From my understanding part of the healthcare bill the judge ruled as unconstitutional was the part that made health insurance mandatory for all citizens to have.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: betnich on December 13, 2010, 05:06:42 PM
I dont follow these things, but I  just googled the story, and it seems like the judge does not think that everyone should have to pay for healthcare if they dont want it. I agree with that. Why should someone who is healthy have to pay for unhealthy people's medical bills?


When I heard that on the news I thought, "Well, California better repeal its uninsured-drivers ban".
Caught with no car insurance - they cite you and tow your car until you get coverage...same in many states...
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 13, 2010, 05:16:20 PM

When I heard that on the news I thought, "Well, California better repeal its uninsured-drivers ban".
Caught with no car insurance - they cite you and tow your car until you get coverage...same in many states...

Wheres Sjon and his Apples and Oranges Pic?
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: sjonathan02 on December 13, 2010, 05:19:20 PM

When I heard that on the news I thought, "Well, California better repeal its uninsured-drivers ban".
Caught with no car insurance - they cite you and tow your car until you get coverage...same in many states...

I heard my name. That's what should occur with those who drive with no insurance.
(http://diditwith.net/content/binary/WindowsLiveWriter/ApplesAndOranges_79DF/WeigtingApplesAndOranges_3.jpg)


Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: LaylaMonroe on December 13, 2010, 05:36:13 PM
Wheres Sjon and his Apples and Oranges Pic?

How is that apples and oranges?

If the judge ruled that it is unconstitutional to force a person to carry medical insurance on their own bodies, how is that any different from forcing a person to carry car insurance on their vehicles?

(Note: FTR, I haven't read anything on this case, so I can only respond to this particular point in the thread; and FTR, I agree that it is grossly unfair for healthy people to pay medical costs for unhealthy people. I also think it's unfair for responsible people to have to carry irresponsible people).

My health insurance policy gives a significant discount for non-smokers and another discount for those who have gym memberships. I don't get the gym discount, but the non-smoker discount takes off $60/mo. from my insurance costs, and $2.00 from my dental insurance. They did that because the costs were rising so much, and it was the safest way to make sure unhealthy people weren't messing things up for everyone.

Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: sjonathan02 on December 13, 2010, 05:45:12 PM
How is that apples and oranges?

If the judge ruled that it is unconstitutional to force a person to carry medical insurance on their own bodies, how is that any different from forcing a person to carry car insurance on their vehicles?


A person's body is theirs to do with as they please that is their right. The privilege to get from Point A to Point B via a one-ton automobile (or any other mode of transportation requiring a license) is different in that each driver doesn't just take their own body into account but also the bodies of the other drivers.

When said person violates that right (via accident or whatever), said person needs to be responsible for the damage caused.


BTJM.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 13, 2010, 05:53:04 PM

A person's body is theirs to do with as they please that is their right. The privilege to get from Point A to Point B via a one-ton automobile (or any other mode of transportation requiring a license) is different in that each driver doesn't just take their own body into account but also the bodies of the other drivers.

When said person violates that right (via accident or whatever), said person needs to be responsible for the damage caused.


BTJM.

what he said.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: nessalynn77 on December 13, 2010, 05:54:41 PM
Yeah, I have mixed emotions about this.  I think they may be going about it wrong.  Medicaid is already free to those who have children and no or very little income.  The next step would be to provide an affordable program like Medicaid to those who have income, but can't afford insurance or work jobs where it's not offered.  They can pay a premium based on income.  There is already a program like this in each state, but it is only for children of such families.

The other thing that needs to be looked at, is health insurance for those who don't have children and are not on SSI, but have little or no income.  Currently on a federal level, these people don't qualify for anything.  Anything they get is provided at a state or county level.  In Nevada, they get nothing.

Problem is, our gov't can't afford to cover or subsidize all of those uninsured people, unless they somehow (yet again) stick it to those who are able to pay their own insurance, and... well, frankly... that just sucks.  

Of course, the other side of it is to deal with the gross inflation of healthcare costs, but that too has a huge downside, in that the quality of care we receive in this country may suffer. The whole situation whomps.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: blyempowered on December 13, 2010, 08:36:31 PM
How is that apples and oranges?

If the judge ruled that it is unconstitutional to force a person to carry medical insurance on their own bodies, how is that any different from forcing a person to carry car insurance on their vehicles?

(Note: FTR, I haven't read anything on this case, so I can only respond to this particular point in the thread; and FTR, I agree that it is grossly unfair for healthy people to pay medical costs for unhealthy people. I also think it's unfair for responsible people to have to carry irresponsible people).

My health insurance policy gives a significant discount for non-smokers and another discount for those who have gym memberships. I don't get the gym discount, but the non-smoker discount takes off $60/mo. from my insurance costs, and $2.00 from my dental insurance. They did that because the costs were rising so much, and it was the safest way to make sure unhealthy people weren't messing things up for everyone.



This
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: LaylaMonroe on December 13, 2010, 08:58:18 PM

A person's body is theirs to do with as they please that is their right. The privilege to get from Point A to Point B via a one-ton automobile (or any other mode of transportation requiring a license) is different in that each driver doesn't just take their own body into account but also the bodies of the other drivers.

When said person violates that right (via accident or whatever), said person needs to be responsible for the damage caused.


BTJM.

I understand. I still wouldn't call that apples and oranges, though. Maybe tangerines and oranges...

The way I see it, driving is only a privilege because the government says it is. Though I'd be afraid to live in such a country, the government COULD just as easily declare that maintaining your own body is a privilege (truth be told, we're not really that far from such assertions). When does YOUR body become MY (or the gov'ts) business? When it threatens my well-being, including the well-being of my finances. If my income is decreased directly or indirectly, partially or solely because my neighbor's poor health habits have driven up the cost of insurance, then it's my business and I don't mind the government regulating that to an extent.

That person also needs to be responsible for the damage they caused (to my finances).

Ftr though, I do see the point you're making. I think we (LGM) made that comparison once or twice before.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: berbie on December 13, 2010, 09:35:55 PM
A person might be healthy at a given time.  When a calamity hits him, who is to pay?  Most people can't pay the expenses of a  catastrophic event that renders them to their backs for a long period of time, and costs tens of thousands in hospital and doctor bills.  Should they be able to wait until they have these problems to get insurance, gambling against the money of those who pay all along?   And causing others to have to pay more because of them. They won't be thrown into the street so someone or some agency, hospital, doctor or family members will have to take care of them.  It is an irresponsible mentality.   They should have to pay if they are able.  If no sickness occurs, it should be considered a blessing and the money spent balanced/equaled by the peace of mind that it purchased. 
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 13, 2010, 10:09:24 PM
  They should have to pay if they are able.

Is that part of Obama's plan, or your opinion?
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: betnich on December 14, 2010, 10:58:24 AM
With all due respect for those who feel differently -

IMO, we all pay when the uninsured wind up in the emergency room or on Medicaid...it's just a matter of if we want to have our healthcare system stretched to the limit (and those who can already pay for those who can't, via taxes or upped premiums or inflated hospital bills) or if we choose to join a larger insured pool, as with Social Security...which way is more efficient?
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: kodacolor on December 14, 2010, 12:16:22 PM
I thing the social issues precivably unhealthy people will have because of this could be very very upsetting or even scarring. I imagine that this woould really hurt the chances of a precivably unhealthy person getting a job. Sure there are laws that say you can't discriminate but they're reactive and can only be used if an employer is caught and someone has proof against them.  (I think acting is the exception.)
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: betnich on December 14, 2010, 03:01:35 PM
I thing the social issues unhealthy people will have because of this could be very very upsetting or even scarring. I imagine that this would really hurt the chances of a unhealthy person getting a job.

That already happens - know people who have been turned down for jobs because of that...unfair but true...
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 14, 2010, 07:43:39 PM
That already happens - know people who have been turned down for jobs because of that...unfair but true...

can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: betnich on December 14, 2010, 10:25:28 PM
People who are too fat, too skinny (usually from chronic illness), handicapped, not the right race, gender or social group, too young or too old or just too ugly (in the hirers' eyes). Not just from prejudice but real or perceived uninsureability. Happens all the time.


...I know a blind man who was unemployed for almost 2 years before finally finding work...
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: LaylaMonroe on December 15, 2010, 07:11:39 AM
I can attest to that. (Not from personal experience, but it was covered at a class I took for HR Practices in the Church. Happens all the time, apparently.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: Docdb04 on December 15, 2010, 08:13:52 AM
^^^^

I can cosign on that.  I'm going through that right now.  It is ridiculous, you can have a degree(s) and get pushed over for the person that doesn't have a degree.  I often wonder are they hiring based on credentials or they want the department to look (visually) a certain way.     
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: blyempowered on December 15, 2010, 10:18:50 AM
^^^^ this
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 15, 2010, 10:43:48 AM
People who are too fat, too skinny (usually from chronic illness), handicapped, not the right race, gender or social group, too young or too old or just too ugly (in the hirers' eyes). Not just from prejudice but real or perceived uninsureability. Happens all the time.


...I know a blind man who was unemployed for almost 2 years before finally finding work...

True about the health part. but I dont see what gender, social groups and ugliness has to do with insurability. :-\


Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 15, 2010, 10:46:16 AM
^^^^

I can cosign on that.  I'm going through that right now.  It is ridiculous, you can have a degree(s) and get pushed over for the person that doesn't have a degree.  I often wonder are they hiring based on credentials or they want the department to look (visually) a certain way.     

What degrees do you have and what type of job are you looking for?

Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: sjonathan02 on December 15, 2010, 11:02:10 AM
What degrees do you have and what type of job are you looking for?


Why does that matter or have to do with the topic at hand?
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: kodacolor on December 15, 2010, 11:11:22 AM
True about the health part. but I dont see what gender, social groups and ugliness has to do with insurability. :-\




Nothing.  Some would argue that it could effect the overall moral of the work place.  I think it's a shotty excuse and wouldn't hold up in court, but I'm sure people would try to make that case.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: funkStrat_97 on December 15, 2010, 11:15:44 AM
True about the health part. but I dont see what gender, social groups and ugliness has to do with insurability. :-\


Well....it's a very messy thing.  Some ethnic groups (sigh - and it's almost always us  :() tend to be prone to certain medical conditions at a higher rate than others - at least, that's what the statics say.  But other than health insurance issues, some corporate cultures are just discriminatory by nature.  If you don't look like you fit in with the company's image, you are less likely to get a job than a more attractive person who is as qualified or even slightly less than you depending on what the job is.  Studies also show things like taller men earn more money (and get more dates) than their shorter counterparts.  Weather it's factual or not, image really is everything.......at first.  So while there are laws that prohibit discrimination, it is still done in practice on a much less obvious level.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 15, 2010, 11:32:23 AM
Why does that matter or have to do with the topic at hand?

He changed the topic, I was interested in what his situation was.
Well....it's a very messy thing.  Some ethnic groups (sigh - and it's almost always us  :() tend to be prone to certain medical conditions at a higher rate than others - at least, that's what the statics say.  But other than health insurance issues, some corporate cultures are just discriminatory by nature.  If you don't look like you fit in with the company's image, you are less likely to get a job than a more attractive person who is as qualified or even slightly less than you depending on what the job is.  Studies also show things like taller men earn more money (and get more dates) than their shorter counterparts.  Weather it's factual or not, image really is everything.......at first.  So while there are laws that prohibit discrimination, it is still done in practice on a much less obvious level.


It may sound wrong, but in some cases I dont see a problem with employers discriminating against certain people because of the way the look, especially when it comes to areas like sales.  Example, If I'm managing a gym/fitness center, I'm not going to hire someone who is 350 lbs and out of shape as a trainer. Why? because not many people are going to want to train with that trainer because of the way he/she looks and that trainer will be less likely to bring in new customers
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: blyempowered on December 15, 2010, 11:33:46 AM
Yes! Image is everything in this society.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: LaylaMonroe on December 15, 2010, 11:40:34 AM
Why does that matter or have to do with the topic at hand?

(Even though U13 already answered) I can see how it's a relevant question. A lot of times, people tend to think that they are having a hard time finding a job for one reason when really there's a different reason. (Obviously, I'm not talking about Docdb here, I'm speaking generally). I know of PLENTY of people who have degrees and experience and all that, and complain of having a hard time getting a job because they're pregnant, overweight, underweight, handicapped, etc. Then, you look at their resume and realize why... or you see their "interview suit" and you know it has nothing to do with those things....

Well....it's a very messy thing.  Some ethnic groups (sigh - and it's almost always us  :() tend to be prone to certain medical conditions at a higher rate than others - at least, that's what the statics say.  But other than health insurance issues, some corporate cultures are just discriminatory by nature.  If you don't look like you fit in with the company's image, you are less likely to get a job than a more attractive person who is as qualified or even slightly less than you depending on what the job is.  Studies also show things like taller men earn more money (and get more dates) than their shorter counterparts.  Weather it's factual or not, image really is everything.......at first.  So while there are laws that prohibit discrimination, it is still done in practice on a much less obvious level.

You're so right. I mentioned a couple of years back that I had read an article that stated that women who wear make-up are ## times more likely to be promoted than women who don't. I forget the percentage, but it was shockingly high.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: sjonathan02 on December 15, 2010, 12:10:42 PM
Well....it's a very messy thing.  Some ethnic groups (sigh - and it's almost always us  :() tend to be prone to certain medical conditions at a higher rate than others - at least, that's what the statics say.  But other than health insurance issues, some corporate cultures are just discriminatory by nature.  If you don't look like you fit in with the company's image, you are less likely to get a job than a more attractive person who is as qualified or even slightly less than you depending on what the job is.  Studies also show things like taller men earn more money (and get more dates) than their shorter counterparts.  Weather it's factual or not, image really is everything.......at first.  So while there are laws that prohibit discrimination, it is still done in practice on a much less obvious level.

And people want to know why our country ain't what it used to be?  ::) :-\

He changed the topic, I was interested in what his situation was.

It may sound wrong, but in some cases I dont see a problem with employers discriminating against certain people because of the way the look, especially when it comes to areas like sales.  Example, If I'm managing a gym/fitness center, I'm not going to hire someone who is 350 lbs and out of shape as a trainer. Why? because not many people are going to want to train with that trainer because of the way he/she looks and that trainer will be less likely to bring in new customers

Ah, gotcha.


As for your statement, I disagree with it in general principle (minus your example which makes perfect sense--in the example only).
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 15, 2010, 12:32:08 PM
(Even though U13 already answered) I can see how it's a relevant question. A lot of times, people tend to think that they are having a hard time finding a job for one reason when really there's a different reason. (Obviously, I'm not talking about Docdb here, I'm speaking generally). I know of PLENTY of people who have degrees and experience and all that, and complain of having a hard time getting a job because they're pregnant, overweight, underweight, handicapped, etc. Then, you look at their resume and realize why... or you see their "interview suit" and you know it has nothing to do with those things....


Also, in 2010 having a degree does not guarantee you a job. In many fields having experience and having connections is just as important and sometimes more important than having a degree. So sometimes you may have to take internships even though you are out of school, just to get you foot in the door. You might also have to go to a temp agency.



Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: blyempowered on December 15, 2010, 01:00:47 PM
^^^^ Yep.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: LaylaMonroe on December 15, 2010, 01:06:38 PM
Also, in 2010 having a degree does not guarantee you a job. In many fields having experience and having connections is just as important and sometimes more important than having a degree. So sometimes you may have to take internships even though you are out of school, just to get you foot in the door. You might also have to go to a temp agency.





Yep. I went through that for several years with my baby sister, who thought that having a sought-after degree (Dual B.S. Int'l Business and Spanish) would guarantee her a high-paying job. She gave me such a headache because she just didn't quite get the concept of "entry level" or getting your foot in the door.

Same with a co-worker who was laid off last year after working for my company for 20 years. They were offering her a couple of other positions (which I'll admit were of the "that's a slap in the face variety") and she refused. She took the severance package and left. But she was in her 50s... Even with a degree and an impressive resume, I was really concerned about her ability to find another job in this economy and at her age. It's rough out there...
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: under13 on December 15, 2010, 01:24:19 PM
Yep. I went through that for several years with my baby sister, who thought that having a sought-after degree (Dual B.S. Int'l Business and Spanish) would guarantee her a high-paying job. She gave me such a headache because she just didn't quite get the concept of "entry level" or getting your foot in the door.


Exactly, but thats what the schools and our parents have been teaching us from day one. Go to school, get  on the honor roll, go to college and make the deans list and get a good paying job and retire with a pension or a measly 401k. Sadly thats not how it works any more. They teach us how to be good employees, but now how to make money or how to network with people. So I cant blame people for thinking this way.
Title: Re: Healthcare Unconstitutional??
Post by: Docdb04 on December 16, 2010, 08:43:12 AM
What degrees do you have and what type of job are you looking for?

I have a BS in Finance and AS in Marketing. 

Yep. I went through that for several years with my baby sister, who thought that having a sought-after degree (Dual B.S. Int'l Business and Spanish) would guarantee her a high-paying job. She gave me such a headache because she just didn't quite get the concept of "entry level" or getting your foot in the door.

Same with a co-worker who was laid off last year after working for my company for 20 years. They were offering her a couple of other positions (which I'll admit were of the "that's a slap in the face variety") and she refused. She took the severance package and left. But she was in her 50s... Even with a degree and an impressive resume, I was really concerned about her ability to find another job in this economy and at her age. It's rough out there...

That's true about entry-level because you have to start somewhere.  The thing that pisses me off is that when you get in the door, they keep you at a certain level because you don't fit the image of "What they are looking for."  I just wonder if "What they are looking for" only applies to "certain" people.  It's like they will do everything to keep you at the bottom.  At the end of the day it is you against "What they look for."  We can't say, just go somewhere else and find a different job, because it is rough out there. 

Exactly, but thats what the schools and our parents have been teaching us from day one. Go to school, get  on the honor roll, go to college and make the deans list and get a good paying job and retire with a pension or a measly 401k. Sadly thats not how it works any more. They teach us how to be good employees, but now how to make money or how to network with people. So I cant blame people for thinking this way.

That is what they teach us, but this concept seems to work for other individuals.  It's hard for me to say that it is equal across the board.  I hear all of the time that some people come out of college and they go right into the field (with only education background).  Others come out of college, have to hop around to gain experience, be in pursuit of an MBA or advance degree, before they are even considered for advancement.  It isn't the same on both sides.  At least that is what it looks like most of the time.