LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Gospel Guitar => Topic started by: funkStrat_97 on March 27, 2012, 08:21:07 PM
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This isn't a guitar specific question, but since those of us who hang out here in the guitar forum are cooler than everyone else on LGM, I think it might be a good topic to field here.
So, as per the title; do you think that local Christian artists have been in any way adversely affected (financially and even artistically speaking) by the prominence of P&W music? On the hand, it would seem to be a strange and contradictory question; but do you think that the emphasis on the "worship experience" has taken away from the simple and pure enjoyment of the music itself?
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Oddly enough, when I hear "P&W" I think CCM-heavy Guitar.
Artists like Israel Houghton have been instrumental in bridging the gap between black and white, CCM and Gospel styles, God-adressing P+W and more traditional 'tell-your neighbor' lyrics.
Good, but everything in balance (from someone old enough to remember the 1970's Disco Invasion of christian music). I think there is a danger of some on the P+W side thinking their way is the only right way, almost resenting time taken from their worship experience - while those on the other side may in turn resent being supplanted by a surfeit of P+W.
IMO there is room for a diversity of styles. A healthy church makes room for both...
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I'm not sure I really understand the question. Are you asking whether or not we believe that local artists are having to do away with their own style for the sake of P+W music?
What do you define by P+W music?
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This isn't a guitar specific question, but since those of us who hang out here in the guitar forum are cooler than everyone else on LGM, I think it might be a good topic to field here.
So, as per the title; do you think that local Christian artists have been in any way adversely affected (financially and even artistically speaking) by the prominence of P&W music? On the hand, it would seem to be a strange and contradictory question; but do you think that the emphasis on the "worship experience" has taken away from the simple and pure enjoyment of the music itself?
From my perspective as one who participates in both "P&W" and original "Christian" music, no.
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To be honest, I wasn't really sure where I was going with this; it was more or less a random though that sort of popped in my head. I guess too that my own exposure to any such "Christian music scene" has been fairly limited. I had maybe two friends who even had a clue as to the goings on in the realm of Christian music.....one of them was virtually the forerunner of Wikepedia on the subject. Most of my exposure, though, was centered more around the gospel music community. But as time went on, it seems like those from my generation have graduated to Praise & Worship (not to mention that we are all so engrossed in our careers and family duties) leaving a small remnant to keep the scene alive on an even smaller level.
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This maybe going out in left field.But,a praise team every Sunday :'( :( >:( :-X :-\
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there is a lot of "christian" music i listen to because i like it, but i don't think of it as worship.
i think the two are pretty far apart, can't imagine one adversely affecting the other....
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Why do you view CCM music as P+W music? To me, P+W music was any song or songs we played, regardless of the genre.
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This maybe going out in left field.But,a praise team every Sunday :'( :( >:( :-X :-\
Our praise team sings every sunday 1 or 2 songs and our fellowship song. but our choir sings every sunday too. I think it's vital that your praise team sings songs designed for them and the choir sing songs designed for choirs. both play a very important part in our service *shrug*
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I think P+W,CCWM is suffering as most other genre's because of trying to be the next big thing.It seems like many folks are trying to "be discovered" or "you sound just like......"
Many bands that I play with are "formula " driven-you have to sound like the record.It's one thing to try and do an artist justice,but often times trying to do the whole note for note deal is tiring.
I refuse to play anymore CCWM that only allows simple triads,drones and all that crap for every song in the set.Last time the lead player was yacking about"simple";I calmly responded -if LORD gave me 10 fingers to play 13 notes-why not? It's one thing to play skillfully and NOT overplay-I get that.But-it's not the only way;otherwise you're just stifled.
What I think that does is create a catch 22.Forget creativity ,unless it fits a narrow band-you have a "narrow " audience.You lose folks -no reason to come hear you play blah,blah,blah-it's just as easy to hear that on the radio/CD.
A lot of the churches around me have essentially the same playlist,look the same,sound the same.All want the "high energy "stuff to draw a crowd.What a fair number of churches around here are doing is courting the college crowd and everyone else just needs to deal with it.I 'm glad there's a least SOME vision;but just overdriven guitar and pounding drums with questionable lyrics doesn't do it for me.
A LOT of performance-don't know about which spirit is driving.
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Our praise team sings every sunday 1 or 2 songs and our fellowship song. but our choir sings every sunday too. I think it's vital that your praise team sings songs designed for them and the choir sing songs designed for choirs. both play a very important part in our service *shrug*
I agree. Ideally choir songs should be different (more call-and-response, vocal parts, etc.), and Praise songs easier for a congregation to sing. Unfortunately because of size and other limitations this is hard to do in most churches...
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doc, that was VERY well said and very true of churches in my area. They are heavily influenced by Hillsongs and sound just like them, note for note, effect for effect. It is uncanny and slightly stifling at the same time.
You also hit the nail on the head in that, in trying to get the young folk into the church, everyone else seems to just be by the way-side.
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doc, that was VERY well said and very true of churches in my area. They are heavily influenced by Hillsongs and sound just like them, note for note, effect for effect. It is uncanny and slightly stifling at the same time.
You also hit the nail on the head in that, in trying to get the young folk into the church, everyone else seems to just be by the way-side.
IMO, this trend is LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) commercialism, and pandering to one coveted demographic at the expense of others. Like people in families, churches should be diverse expressions of their personalities, not clones of one another. Especially when it comes to multicultural and Black congregations. If I wanted a Hillsong-type experience I would go to a Calvary Chapel type of church (no slam on them, they do good).
I don't mind playing some CCM, but not living on a steady diet of it...
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I also enjoy my fair share of CCM, but once in a while I really need to bust out the Israel and Martha Munizi.
There is this phenomenal album by a group called Free Chapel or something. Israel performed and co-produced it.
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I also enjoy my fair share of CCM, but once in a while I really need to bust out the Israel and Martha Munizi.
There is this phenomenal album by a group called Free Chapel or something. Israel performed and co-produced it.
I think Free Chapel is headed up by Jentezen Franklin. He's sort of the male version of Paula White albeit with a little less controversy. ;D
Ricardo Sanchez is one of their worship leaders and, yes, Israel Houghton has done some work on their albums.
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I think Free Chapel is headed up by Jentezen Franklin. He's sort of the male version of Paula White albeit with a little less controversy. ;D
Ricardo Sanchez is one of their worship leaders and, yes, Israel Houghton has done some work on their albums.
"The Power of the Cross" is in our regular set rotation.
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"The Power of the Cross" is in our regular set rotation.
We do their versions of "Moving Forward" and "Say So".
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I'm trying to see if we can pull off "Make all things new".
That song has one of the sickest grooves I've heard in a while.
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I agree. Ideally choir songs should be different (more call-and-response, vocal parts, etc.), and Praise songs easier for a congregation to sing. Unfortunately because of size and other limitations this is hard to do in most churches...
Wait, whut? How does it get any easier than call and response for a praise team?
I still don't understand the point of the question (as it is with most FS-style questions). Are you saying that in some way, P&W killed local artists hanging out and playing music together? ?/?
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Mr Sjon, no offense, but if you played guitar, you would understand the question. This is why FS posted it here rather than in the Lounge.
**shrug**
:)
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Mr Sjon, no offense, but if you played guitar, you would understand the question. This is why FS posted it here rather than in the Lounge.
**shrug**
:)
Well, explain to me then. What makes this topic specific to the instrument known as guitar?
Especially when, in FS' initial post, he said the topic was NOT specific to the guitar but rather went on to make an erroneous comment concerning those who play said instrument.
;D
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There's just no point explaining it. Its a guitar thing.
;D
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Wait, whut? How does it get any easier than call and response for a praise team?
I still don't understand the point of the question (as it is with most FS-style questions). Are you saying that in some way, P&W killed local artists hanging out and playing music together? ?/?
Mr Sjon, no offense, but if you played guitar, you would understand the question. This is why FS posted it here rather than in the Lounge.
**shrug**
:)
My brothers....let love rule ;) But in attempt to clarify the question, let my put this way. If you lived in area that has an active community of Christian musicians and independent artists; do you think that this community has seen a state of decline over the years as more and more Christians have embraced the popularity of praise music? During the 90's and early 2000's, coffee houses seemed to be popular venues for local artists to fellowship and play music. But as time has gone on and changes in family and work life has occurred, could it be that the comparatively small base of Christian music devotes has been greatly diminished?
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...... an erroneous comment concerning those who play said instrument.
;D
Hey....I resemble that remark!
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My brothers....let love rule ;) But in attempt to clarify the question, let my put this way. If you lived in area that has an active community of Christian musicians and independent artists; do you think that this community has seen a state of decline over the years as more and more Christians have embraced the popularity of praise music? During the 90's and early 2000's, coffee houses seemed to be popular venues for local artists to fellowship and play music. But as time has gone on and changes in family and work life has occurred, could it be that the comparatively small base of Christian music devotes has been greatly diminished?
I would think that family responsibilities and work would have a more direct cause to a decline in musicians getting together than a particular genre or style.
If anything, I would think that musicians would want to get together to either embrace the direction of Christian music or to reminisce about the 'good old days'.
Thanks for the clarification, FS. :)
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I see a few coffee house places,but that's an area hit pretty hard by the economy resulting in closings.Then,a lot of folks are practicing for sunday services.
There's a few "musician" friendly venues that are "formula driven" so at least everybody can play.Or,it turns into a jam session,not a bad thing.
But;I think a number of factors has come together resulting in isolation rather than integration.For < $1K -you can have a fairly decent home studio and jam to your hearts content.You can play "guitar hero " without dealing with somebody else's attitude(s).
So@ some level it's a polarizing attitude.
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There was a time a couple years ago where this little county of this little state had up to 5 popular weekend Christian music 'coffee houses' operating out of local churches.
Now, we have 2.
To me, the blame for the demise of the other three is not on the popularity of any music style or anything.
Here's what happened:
Coffee house 1 - closed due to the pastor realizing that the ends weren't justifying the means. It was his hope that a popular coffee house would result in a growing congregation, especially with the lost being saved. It didn't. It ended up being nothing more than Christian entertainment with Christians who went to other churches.
Coffee house 2 - closed due to poor planning, poor promotion and a poor venue. They billed it as a 'single's ministry' yet there were more married w/ kids people coming than singles. They also held it in the gym...the WORST possible place to EVER have live music. That combined with a lack of interest to fix problems 1 and 2 killed it.
Coffee house 3 - We played at it once and it was disorganized and poorly promoted. Nice people, but...
Coffee houses 4 and 5 are still going strong. My wife and I played one last month and had one of the largest crowds that they'd ever seen. I played the other one the month prior and it, too, was packed. Their success is in their desire to keep things simple and be both a place where you'd invite your unsaved friends and provide good Christian entertainment.
My church has talked about having a monthly 'thing', but I know that our head pastor, much like the pastor of #1 above, wants to see fruit from it. The whole point of why we do what we do as a church is to see the lost become found in Christ and for them to grow into being mature disciples. He doesn't just want Christians to entertain other Christians.
I think there needs to be a place for both.
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As a keyboard player -
This goes along with something I have been thinking about lately - the dearth of Christian fellowship among local music people. Why?
Several factors -
The Economy - naturally. Yet one can set up for free in a home, on the street corner, or in most parks: maybe have to get a permit from the county or city if you want electricity. I see opportunities at community street fairs and local festivals; but few ministries take advantage of it.
Churches closing/not sponsoring venues. Call it lack of vision or passion for outreach, jealousy, wanting 'results', keeping one's singers and musicians in-house - there is a lack of encouragement to go outside the four walls of the church among leadership in our area.
Musicians' natural reticence - most (at least on LGM) seem rather introverted...
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Musicians' natural reticence - most (at least on LGM) seem rather introverted...
Was it the amount of time we spend on LGM ranting and posting that gave this away? :D
But seriously, it is not just LGM. Most musicians I have come across just don't want to be bothered going anywhere else.
I remember we had a discussion once in our choir to take our singing to the streets. We could easily get a permit and set up. It just ended up dying a natural death.
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Mr Sjon, no offense, but if you played guitar, you would understand the question. This is why FS posted it here rather than in the Lounge.
**shrug**
:)
I agree,Sjon go play your flute.
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maybe it's because musicians have more of an outlet in their local church with the wide acceptance of P&W music?? even ten years ago there were some churches that didn't have a full band, so if you were a musician and wanted to glorify God through your talents you had to find somewhere to do it.
now with some churches having multiple genre worship services on the same campus simultaneously, there is almost unlimited opportunity to use your gifts. With the amount of time that usually goes into serving on a team that doesn't leave a lot of room for other things.
(this also doesn't take into account how many p&w teams think they are rockstars....you don't get to play in front of thousands of people on a weekend at a local coffee shop)
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maybe it's because musicians have more of an outlet in their local church with the wide acceptance of P&W music?? even ten years ago there were some churches that didn't have a full band, so if you were a musician and wanted to glorify God through your talents you had to find somewhere to do it.
now with some churches having multiple genre worship services on the same campus simultaneously, there is almost unlimited opportunity to use your gifts. With the amount of time that usually goes into serving on a team that doesn't leave a lot of room for other things.
(this also doesn't take into account how many p&w teams think they are rockstars....you don't get to play in front of thousands of people on a weekend at a local coffee shop)
Hmmm....interesting point.
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maybe it's because musicians have more of an outlet in their local church with the wide acceptance of P&W music?? even ten years ago there were some churches that didn't have a full band, so if you were a musician and wanted to glorify God through your talents you had to find somewhere to do it.
now with some churches having multiple genre worship services on the same campus simultaneously, there is almost unlimited opportunity to use your gifts. With the amount of time that usually goes into serving on a team that doesn't leave a lot of room for other things.
(this also doesn't take into account how many p&w teams think they are rockstars....you don't get to play in front of thousands of people on a weekend at a local coffee shop)
All very good points.
Of course, one thing to take into consideration is all of those Christian musicians who claim to HATE P&W and pop CCM music. I know that some of them are playing on worship teams on the weekends, dreading every minute of it (I'm basing this on what I've read here and on various Christian music forums and group pages).
Some of them are out there playing the coffee shops and such.
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Sketch....a bass singer....what is that? Do you mean tenor? Lol! J/k...