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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 11:43:17 AM

Title: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 11:43:17 AM
Quote
A board of trustees selected by the late Apostle Betty R. Peebles, co-founder of Jericho City of Praise in Landover, on Wednesday fired her only surviving child, the Rev. Joel R. Peebles, as acting pastor and stripped him of membership in the church his parents created more than 40 years ago.

Peebles, 42, the sole survivor of the Peebles family, said he was notified in writing of his dismissal just after 1 p.m. Wednesday, when he arrived at the church to begin preparing for an evening Bible study session.

Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 11:43:27 AM
Background: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/joel-peebles-megachurch-pastor-is-fired-from-church-his-parents-founded/2012/04/18/gIQAgvXMRT_story.html?tid=pm_local_pop (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/joel-peebles-megachurch-pastor-is-fired-from-church-his-parents-founded/2012/04/18/gIQAgvXMRT_story.html?tid=pm_local_pop)

Video of the pastor being removed from the premises:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wX-pzV4cx7s# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wX-pzV4cx7s#)!

Okay, so I need some discussion on this.... anything? Anybody???
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 19, 2012, 11:47:25 AM
Can't read the article, for some reason it won't load.  I don't know why he was removed, so I can't really comment.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 11:58:05 AM
Here's what the article says about why he was fired (not a lot of detail):

Quote
Peebles’s firing is the latest development in a controversy that began just after Betty Peebles’s death in October 2010. The issue has been control of the church’s massive assets: a 10,000-seat sanctuary, a senior citizens’ complex, schools and a lucrative agreement to provide parking for Washington Redskins home games.

Board members contend that Betty Peebles thought her son needed additional training before taking the reins. Joel Peebles said his mother wanted him to succeed her.

“I preached by my mother’s side every Sunday,” Peebles said in a previous interview. “I preached at 8 a.m. and was by her side when she preached at the 11 a.m. service.”

Henry called Wednesday’s dismissal “another attempt by Satan” to interfere with Peebles’s work. “He has preached every Sunday. He has negotiated and signed $88 million in loans and other things to help establish this ministry,” Henry said.

A source familiar with the controversy said the board decided to fire Peebles because the two sides had not been able to agree on managing the church. Both sides claimed victory after a court hearing on Monday.

I'm not familiar with the back story, but it sounds to me like typical infighting about how to actually run the church (probably related to money, investments, budget, etc.). I perused quite a few articles and there wasn't a single mention of any sin or wrongdoing, so I don't think there were any improper actions involved.

But the bigger picture - imo - is plural vs. singular leadership and who should be in charge of a church? Should the pastor have sole authority? Majority authority? Should a board be able to oust a pastor? Independent churches vs. affiliated churches... if you start a church from the ground up, build it, etc... should your members or board be able to vote you out? What if you started that church, die and pass it on to your child, should the members be able to vote him out?
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 19, 2012, 12:04:32 PM
I'm not sure if a church should be "inherited".  I know a lot of pastor's sons succeed them, some rightfully so, and some out of pure nepotism.  Nowadays, it's just become way too academic and way too convoluted, IMO.  You can't really trust that all parties involved are committed to see the will of God carried out in the proceedings.  I guess the only thing one can do is vote if you have a vote, but more importantly pray for the church and its leaders.  Pastors and leaders should be careful who they appoint during the good times, because those same people will have a vital hand in what happens in more uncertain times.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 12:10:49 PM
FYI I think this is the church where Richard Smallwood's recording was.

Incidentally, I just watched the entire DVD last night and got this news today. :-\
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: blyempowered on April 19, 2012, 12:16:09 PM
Is there any documentation on who the late pastor specifically wanted to succeed her? What do the bylaws state in regards to the appointment of a successor?

#questionsonmymindasIreadthistory

Irregardless, I think every church should have some type of board for accountability measures and within that board roles and positions be clearly defined. I don't have a problem as much these days with a Pastor having vision, ideas and the leniency to lead (too many chiefs not enough indians is a huge problem in too many churches today) but there should be some accountability. So basically, I argue for balance (clear leadership but also accountability). 
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 19, 2012, 12:22:41 PM
Is there any documentation on who the late pastor specifically wanted to succeed her? What do the bylaws state in regards to the appointment of a successor?
I have a tad bit of a problem with the pastor being the sole appointer of the successor... kinda... I mean the church is not the family jewels that you pass down to little pastor jr. and pastor III etc.  It's different, you don't own it and you don't have the right to keep it in your family for the sake of keeping it in your family. 
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: funkStrat_97 on April 19, 2012, 12:39:55 PM
Wow, I just saw this story on my FB page.  Being a Washington area resident, Jericho City of Praise is a local institution.  Although I am not very informed about the the details of the situation but it has gotten some coverage in the local news.  It is a sad case that highlights the cost of a "successful" ministry and makes you wonder what is the objective of having a large ministry in the first place.  Church is just as much a business concern as it is a spiritual enterprise and both are valid and important aspects of ministry.  I hope all goes well for Pastor Peebles and the congregation of Jericho.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: funkStrat_97 on April 19, 2012, 01:23:25 PM
Here's what the article says about why he was fired (not a lot of detail):

I'm not familiar with the back story, but it sounds to me like typical infighting about how to actually run the church (probably related to money, investments, budget, etc.). I perused quite a few articles and there wasn't a single mention of any sin or wrongdoing, so I don't think there were any improper actions involved.

But the bigger picture - imo - is plural vs. singular leadership and who should be in charge of a church? Should the pastor have sole authority? Majority authority? Should a board be able to oust a pastor? Independent churches vs. affiliated churches... if you start a church from the ground up, build it, etc... should your members or board be able to vote you out? What if you started that church, die and pass it on to your child, should the members be able to vote him out?

AFAIK, Joel is on the up and up as far as his integrity is concerned.  But when you have a religious organization of that size and with all of the financial and legal implications involved, I would favor a plural form of leadership regardless of how experienced and/or skilled the pastor is from a business perspective.  And in this particular case, it would appear that his late mother saw some weaknesses in her son and felt that a board of directors would have better served the needs of the church more than maybe even her personal desire to see her son take the level of control that she had. 
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: blyempowered on April 19, 2012, 01:42:07 PM
I have a tad bit of a problem with the pastor being the sole appointer of the successor... kinda... I mean the church is not the family jewels that you past down to little pastor jr. and pastor III etc.  It's different, you don't own it and you don't have the right to keep it in your family for the sake of keeping it in your family.

Good point.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 01:44:10 PM
I'm in the middle of this video now.

This is a really sad story in the body.

Word_From_Pastor Joel Peebles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty7OrMPPFMA#)
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Arkhams Finest on April 19, 2012, 01:53:14 PM
Is there any documentation on who the late pastor specifically wanted to succeed her? What do the bylaws state in regards to the appointment of a successor?

#questionsonmymindasIreadthistory

Irregardless, I think every church should have some type of board for accountability measures and within that board roles and positions be clearly defined. I don't have a problem as much these days with a Pastor having vision, ideas and the leniency to lead (too many chiefs not enough indians is a huge problem in too many churches today) but there should be some accountability. So basically, I argue for balance (clear leadership but also accountability).


(http://cache.thisorth.at/00000/00017/051.460x325.png)
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 02:09:56 PM
LOL... I gotta say, I don't "get" that....


But anyway, back on subject....

Idk how I feel about this whole situation. From what little I know (I've watched a few videos and read a few articles), it appears that there are some really fleshly and vengeful actions taking place, and it appears that people are really out for self. They just really need to pause and seek God. Calling police, forcibly removing the board members that have served since day 1 of the ministry, changing locks, firing staff... all of this after the leader died... I just don't see God in that (assuming it's true). I'm so saddened to see this huge landmark go down like this. Apostle Betty died without a single mark or wrinkle on her name, and I can't imagine that she or her husband would've been pleased to see their only living son treated this way or the church they built being marred this way.... especially if their son is blameless. They built this church from nothing to one of the largest mega-churches in the DMV area.

In any case, I think that for matters like this, the entire church should decide who leads them as pastor. But it's so complicated that I honestly could argue both positions.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Arkhams Finest on April 19, 2012, 02:11:54 PM
Imagine starting a ministry with your spouse.  You two put up the money for the first space you rent.  The first space isn't large so many times you have to invest large sums of your own money to make ends meet.  After 5 years you have enough for a mortgage.

You purchase a building that can seat 200.  It's difficult at first because you initially don't have enough members to cover the increased mortgage and bills, but after 10 years you have enough to purchase a large space.  This new space can seat 5,000.

After 5 years you start having some issues with the board members.  There are disagreements.  You rub some of them the wrong way.

You placed a clause in the Bylaws that allows the board to remove a Pastor from office if, say, 80% of the board can agree.  Some individuals with influence pull some strings, and you're out.

Now, after giving your life and literally tens of thousands of dollars to this ministry, you're out of a job.  You aren't even a MEMBER in the church you founded with blood sweat and tears.

Doesn't seem fair.

The matter of succession is a little more complicated.  Still, if I founded this church, I should be able to choose who the successor will be.

Why?

Because I know the challenges better than any board member.  I know the requisite personality traits better than any board member.  I know the job.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: funkStrat_97 on April 19, 2012, 02:18:41 PM
...changing locks, firing staff... all of this after the leader died... I just don't see God in that (assuming it's true). I'm so saddened to see this huge landmark go down like this. Apostle Betty died without a single mark or wrinkle on her name, and I can't imagine that she or her husband would've been pleased to see their only living son treated this way or the church they built being marred this way.... especially if their son is blameless. They built this church from nothing to one of the largest mega-churches in the DMV area.

In any case, I think that for matters like this, the entire church should decide who leads them as pastor. But it's so complicated that I honestly could argue both positions.

They changed the locks because of a series of burglaries, and that it was not attempt to lock the pastor out..........well that's what they say anyway  ::)  :-\
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 02:29:33 PM
They changed the locks because of a series of burglaries, and that it was not attempt to lock the pastor out..........well that's what they say anyway  ::)  :-\

They also changed the locks on the pastor's office and didn't give him a key. That wasn't an attempt to lock him out? LOL
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: SirTJ on April 19, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
I'm convinced that if we're going to make strides in winning a generation that is steadily turning toward atheism, it's going to have to be done OUTSIDE of the church. No one is going to take us seriously when they pick up the freaking Washington Post and see THIS crap. The situation is complicated, yes, but a sense of awareness is in order. You DO NOT feed a media engine that lusts after any shred of drama that will make the church look bad. These people are grown, they should act like it and start considering the BODY, not just their personal agenda.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 02:36:06 PM
Imagine starting a ministry with your spouse.  You two put up the money for the first space you rent.  The first space isn't large so many times you have to invest large sums of your own money to make ends meet.  You also have After 5 years you have enough for a mortgage.

You purchase a building that can seat 200.  It's difficult at first because you initially don't have enough members to cover the increased mortgage and bills, but after 10 years you have enough to purchase a large space.  This new space can seat 5,000.

After 5 years you start having some issues with the board members.  There are disagreements.  You rub some of them the wrong way.

You placed a clause in the Bylaws that allows the board to remove a Pastor from office if, say, 80% of the board can agree.  Some individuals with influence pull some strings, and you're out.

Now, after giving your life and literally tens of thousands of dollars to this ministry, you're out of a job.  You aren't even a MEMBER in the church you founded with blood sweat and tears.

Doesn't seem fair.

The matter of succession is a little more complicated.  Still, if I founded this church, I should be able to choose who the successor will be.

Why?

Because I know the challenges better than any board member.  I know the requisite personality traits better than any board member.  I know the job.

See, this is the kinda stuff I was thinking...

Part of me is like "well the church belongs to God... it's not man's church, it's the Lord's church." But the practical side of me says that the church is a non-profit organization that was founded and built by the Peebles. It is their organization with members. From a legal perspective, it is their organization with members. They were likely listed as the incorporating officers when the ministry was first incorporated, and as the directors when they got their first 501(c)(3). They invested not only their own money, but also their sweat, their tears, their elbow grease, and many, many prayers. It's not unreasonable to say that the church's name is what it is because of the Peebles (in Christ, of course).

As far as the bylaws, I have no idea what theirs state, but I wouldn't allow for the removal of a founding pastor without a unanimous vote AND a church vote... unless there was some sinful activity going on. But just over a difference of opinions? Nah, that's just not God. It's just not.

Another thing I thought is this: if pastors have the authority to name people to head up certain ministry auxiliaries, and that's okay with us, why wouldn't it be okay for the pastors to name their successors? If you trust this pastor to lead you, to shepherd you, to give you direction, and to name leaders to the departments in which you serve, why wouldn't you trust him/her to have the wisdom to determine who can take the reigns after their demise, whether the person is kin or not?

And after saying all that, I still feel some kinda way about singular leadership so like I said, I can argue both sides. It's complicated.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 02:37:13 PM
I'm convinced that if we're going to make strides in winning a generation that is steadily turning toward atheism, it's going to have to be done OUTSIDE of the church. No one is going to take us seriously when they pick up the freaking Washington Post and see THIS crap. The situation is complicated, yes, but a sense of awareness is in order. You DO NOT feed a media engine that lusts after any shred of drama that will make the church look bad. These people are grown, they should act like it and start considering the BODY, not just their personal agenda.

I agree, and especially with the part in bold.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 19, 2012, 02:38:51 PM
I'm convinced that if we're going to make strides in winning a generation that is steadily turning toward atheism, it's going to have to be done OUTSIDE of the church. No one is going to take us seriously when they pick up the freaking Washington Post and see THIS crap. The situation is complicated, yes, but a sense of awareness is in order. You DO NOT feed a media engine that lusts after any shred of drama that will make the church look bad. These people are grown, they should act like it and start considering the BODY, not just their personal agenda.


This. Simply this.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Docdb04 on April 19, 2012, 03:58:27 PM
They also changed the locks on the pastor's office and didn't give him a key. That wasn't an attempt to lock him out? LOL

Yes (secondary) and to protect themselves from the series of burglaries (primary).


This is when a church being ran like a business gets a little complicated and I am one that church is a business and should be treated as such.  I guess you have to take all that comes with territory of treating it like a business. 

Based on the pieces of the article, depending on how you view it will determine how you feel.  From a church perspective, one will say it is wrong how he was treated.  From a business perspective, depending the information one will say it was the right thing to do.

Sad to see him escorted like that.   
 
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 19, 2012, 04:00:25 PM
I wonder if any members are inclined to go with him?  That's a tell-tale sign.  If everybody's staying put, then they all wanted him to go.  If it splits the church, then the board just went renegade and tried to do something crazy.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 19, 2012, 04:06:13 PM
I wonder if any members are inclined to go with him?  That's a tell-tale sign.  If everybody's staying put, then they all wanted him to go.  If it splits the church, then the board just went renegade and tried to do something crazy.

From the videos I watched, he had a nice size following that will be going wherever he goes. One guy said those exact words. In that first video, there were three ladies who had been there for years, I think one lady said 40 years, another said 23 and the other said 13, if I'm not mistaken. They all support him and not only that, they were really hurt that he was being treated that way and believe that his mother was taken advantage of in her illness (made to sign legal documents and contracts while she was incapacitated).

I saw about 200 people at a prayer vigil, and one video where they were marching around the walls of Jericho, there were probably about 100 ppl. HOWEVER, I don't know what that means in a church of 10k members.

Another note, I read somewhere (and this wasn't even related to all the mess) that the church grew exponentially under his leadership. So I'm willing to bet that if he starts another church (though it doesn't sound like he wants to - it sounds like he wants Jericho back), he will have no problem building up the membership.

But this is about so much more. That church owned an apartment complex, a university, a school, and a parking facility for Redskins games... and probably more stuff that I don't know about. They had MEGA assets, and if he's telling the truth, they snatched it all from his mother's legal "ownership" (or control) by making her sign a document that made her an employee of the church, and made them all the new board members. If that's true, that's some shady stuff... ain't no getting around that shade.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: blyempowered on April 19, 2012, 04:49:32 PM
I'm convinced that if we're going to make strides in winning a generation that is steadily turning toward atheism, it's going to have to be done OUTSIDE of the church. No one is going to take us seriously when they pick up the freaking Washington Post and see THIS crap. The situation is complicated, yes, but a sense of awareness is in order. You DO NOT feed a media engine that lusts after any shred of drama that will make the church look bad. These people are grown, they should act like it and start considering the BODY, not just their personal agenda.

PREACH SIR!!
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Mysteryman on April 19, 2012, 10:21:17 PM
It's better is the pastor decides if he started the church. What happened to the days when the saints would just pray you out if you weren't doing right. :)
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: csedwards2 on April 19, 2012, 11:04:28 PM
if every pastor who left a church, started another................................ ....oh wait, well thats what happens already




Its already too many dead churches where a leader is not sent, and just went. Rather than wait on Gods leading, these leaders start churches out of hurt. A ministry with that kind of foundation, develops man-made doctrines that arent necessarily Biblically based or Spirit-led that try to prevent the same hurt the church was born out of. And Im in no way saying that is whats happening here; but it could, and it has in so many other churches nationwide.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: funkStrat_97 on April 20, 2012, 06:25:02 AM
It's better is the pastor decides if he started the church. What happened to the days when the saints would just pray you out if you weren't doing right. :)

But how do we that these people are even "saints"?........just a thought.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Mysteryman on April 20, 2012, 09:17:12 AM
But how do we that these people are even "saints"?........just a thought.
I'm talking about the prayer warriors in the church as a whole. Usually the mothers board. lol
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 09:32:21 AM
if every pastor who left a church, started another................................ ....oh wait, well thats what happens already




Its already too many dead churches where a leader is not sent, and just went. Rather than wait on Gods leading, these leaders start churches out of hurt. A ministry with that kind of foundation, develops man-made doctrines that arent necessarily Biblically based or Spirit-led that try to prevent the same hurt the church was born out of. And Im in no way saying that is whats happening here; but it could, and it has in so many other churches nationwide.

I agree with you in principle, but not as it relates to Jericho. I think that if a person is pastoring and pastoring well, with no integrity/character issues to speak of, and he is fired or asked to step down from his church, he should start another work (or apply for a pastoring job elsewhere - but the problem with that is that only certain organizations hire pastors like that, and his church is non-denominational and probably not affiliated). So it's not like an AME church or Baptist church is gonna hire him. If he's gonna do what he believes he's called to do (and what he's proven he's equipped to do), he has to start another church... or wait for the courts to resolve this situation.

Whole 'notha shame that this is in the court system.... smh.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: funkStrat_97 on April 20, 2012, 10:20:02 AM
I understand the Scriptural argument against Christians not resorting to the world's legal system to resolve conflicts, but in a situation like this I don't think that the church is adequately equipped to handle something of this magnitude.  And then sometimes the actions of others force your hand; if someone comes against  you with a full-fledged legal attack and you don't respond in like force, it would be like showing up to a gunfight with a knife!
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 10:25:42 AM
I understand the Scriptural argument against Christians not resorting to the world's legal system to resolve conflicts, but in a situation like this I don't think that the church is adequately equipped to handle something of this magnitude.  And then sometimes the actions of others force your hand; if someone comes against  you with a full-fledged legal attack and you don't respond in like force, it would be like showing up to a gunfight with a knife!

I know it sounds simplistically idealistic and maybe even naive, but if I were on that board, I would've done everything in my power to convince my fellow board members to pull together a panel of 5 respected men of God and of wisdom, and ask them to judge the matter.

That's Biblical, reasonable, and fair.

And I take this thing seriously... We can't just apply the word when it works for us. That's hypocrisy at its finest.

When one of you has a dispute with another believer, how dare you file a lawsuit and ask a secular court to decide the matter instead of taking it to other believers!

Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves?

Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life.

If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church?

I am saying this to shame you. Isn’t there anyone in all the church who is wise enough to decide these issues?

But instead, one believer sues another—right in front of unbelievers!

Even to have such lawsuits with one another is a defeat for you.
Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated?

Instead, you yourselves are the ones who do wrong and cheat even your fellow believers.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 10:49:41 AM
I just read that they are terminating the membership of all those who support Joel Peebles.

(http://peopleofpraisemd.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/001-excommunicate-k-moore.jpg?w=545&h=750)
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: blyempowered on April 20, 2012, 10:50:33 AM
SMH!!!
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Mysteryman on April 20, 2012, 10:57:03 AM
Even if you terminate my membership how are you going to stop me from coming? Sounds like some rights are being broken.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: SirTJ on April 20, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
...I don't want to be anywhere near the electricity when the lightening strikes.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 20, 2012, 11:01:16 AM
Wow.  I've never seen such a thing.  Above all else, people should carefully consider that they will stand before God to give an account for every deed.  I'd be very cautious before making a move like that on the pastor.  And if I was a pastor, I'd be cautious before taking any unwarranted, excessive actions toward the congregation.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 20, 2012, 11:02:20 AM
...I don't want to be anywhere near the electricity when the lightening strikes.
Really.  Somebody's trying to kindle the wrath of God.  That's some Miriam and Aaron stuff right there.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 11:10:37 AM
I'm reading some of the depositions and stuff (basically just trying to get another side of the story because EVERYTHING I've read and watched thus far has been slanted toward Joel Peebles), and it's just sad.

Mind you, the late Apostle Betty Peebles' entire family were members of Jericho City. Her two other sons died, but their widows and children still remained. Allegedly, these "board members" forged documents and manipulated Apostle Peebles into changing her will, leaving EVERYTHING to the church (which would be under the control of the new board members, not the ones she appointed herself), and nothing to her surviving son, daughters in law and grandchildren. Not a single thing. Even her fur coats, clothing, property, all money and other assets, including wedding ring and other jewelry was allegedly left to these people.

I'm slow to speak on this without knowing both sides, but that just doesn't sound right to me. She wasn't estranged from them. Her son preached at that church for 30 years, by all accounts, and he said that in the past 30 years, he's only missed 3 Sundays. They couldn't have had a bad relationship. So why would she change her will to exclude her son and all grandchildren?
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 20, 2012, 11:13:22 AM
I just read that they are terminating the membership of all those who support Joel Peebles.

([url]http://peopleofpraisemd.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/001-excommunicate-k-moore.jpg?w=545&h=750[/url])


From where did you get this? ?/? :-\  As in, why is it online? ?/? :-\

Lastly, are they going to change their street address as well? ?/? :-\


Even so, quickly* come, Lord Jesus. :-\




*my emphasis added
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 20, 2012, 11:15:26 AM
Really.  Somebody's trying to kindle the wrath of God.  That's some Miriam and Aaron stuff right there.

This.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 11:18:26 AM
From where did you get this? ?/? :-\  As in, why is it online? ?/? :-\

Lastly, are they going to change their street address as well? ?/? :-\


Even so, quickly* come, Lord Jesus. :-\




*my emphasis added


Oooh I'm slipping. I'm sorry, I should've included the source (http://peopleofpraisemd.com/depositions).

Apparently, some of his supporters started a website. I came across it when I saw him make reference to it in a video. He was asking them to be careful to represent Christ in everything they say and do, even in the midst of their hurt and anger, etc. He mentioned the website and his own website (I haven't been to his website yet). The website isn't nasty, but there's definitely some stuff that I would have liked to see worded differently. It's not a good look for the BOC. None of this is.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 11:23:44 AM
Oh and btw, the street address (assuming you're talking about the Bishop Peebles Drive part?) is named after the late Bishop James Peebles, Sr., the founder of the church. He and his wife, Apostle Betty, founded the church, but they are both now deceased. Joel Peebles is the only surviving son after James Jr. and another son, John? passed.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 12:02:55 PM
I'm reading the Chairman of the Board's deposition. It's really long, so I know no one would want to read it... but in any case, what I can't help but note is this:

1. She was appointed president of the board upon Apostle's death. She was asked something about how much she knew about serving in this position, and she said "I'm learning."

2. Much later, when asked what her personal problem is with Joel Peebles' pastoring, she named 3 things: he needs more mentoring, more training and more organization. (Now this is the man who served under his parents for 30+ years, and was the assistant pastor to his mother). She went on to elaborate on the "organization" piece, saying that she doesn't like all the walking that is done in the pulpit (it appears she was referring to the armorbearers), and that he jokes around too much.

She was given ample opportunity to add more, but she insisted that those are her only problems with him.

3. I'm on the part now where they're talking about filing taxes and whether the offering has decreased since Apostle's passing. This woman testified under oath that she has never seen a financial report of the offerings so she has no idea what they bring in on average each week or month, and that she doesn't know and has never signed any tax filings. This is the chairlady of the board. She doesn't know any of the board members' salaries (mind you, 3 of them are salaried employees of the church - clearly a conflict of interest). Is not aware of any employee evaluation or compensation policies... she basically doesn't know anything about this church at all...



---------------------------------------

Also, I read a couple of letters she wrote to Joel, I guess as a reprimand. One of them chastised him for referring to himself as Pastor Joel Peebles on a flyer, when the board has not named him pastor, reminding him that he is the assistant pastor. The letter also corrected him for referring to the church as City of Praise, not Jericho City of Praise.

**JESUS FACEPALM**
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Docdb04 on April 20, 2012, 01:48:16 PM
I'm reading the Chairman of the Board's deposition. It's really long, so I know no one would want to read it... but in any case, what I can't help but note is this:

1. She was appointed president of the board upon Apostle's death. She was asked something about how much she knew about serving in this position, and she said "I'm learning."

2. Much later, when asked what her personal problem is with Joel Peebles' pastoring, she named 3 things: he needs more mentoring, more training and more organization. (Now this is the man who served under his parents for 30+ years, and was the assistant pastor to his mother). She went on to elaborate on the "organization" piece, saying that she doesn't like all the walking that is done in the pulpit (it appears she was referring to the armorbearers), and that he jokes around too much.

She was given ample opportunity to add more, but she insisted that those are her only problems with him.

3. I'm on the part now where they're talking about filing taxes and whether the offering has decreased since Apostle's passing. This woman testified under oath that she has never seen a financial report of the offerings so she has no idea what they bring in on average each week or month, and that she doesn't know and has never signed any tax filings. This is the chairlady of the board. She doesn't know any of the board members' salaries (mind you, 3 of them are salaried employees of the church - clearly a conflict of interest). Is not aware of any employee evaluation or compensation policies... she basically doesn't know anything about this church at all...



---------------------------------------

Also, I read a couple of letters she wrote to Joel, I guess as a reprimand. One of them chastised him for referring to himself as Pastor Joel Peebles on a flyer, when the board has not named him pastor, reminding him that he is the assistant pastor. The letter also corrected him for referring to the church as City of Praise, not Jericho City of Praise.

**JESUS FACEPALM**

So let me get this straight.  When she was asked what she knew about serving in this position, she states she is learning.  However, Bishop Peebles who served under the Apostle Peebles for 30 years, needs more mentoring...wow.

I am not quick to rush to judgement without the facts, but this seems like a hostile takeover. 
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: phbrown on April 20, 2012, 02:14:14 PM
well .... based on the research of Lady Layla ... Mr. Peebles should have no problems starting a new church ... because


Proverbs 25:24
New International Version (NIV)
 24 Better to live on a corner of the roof
   than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.


and at City of Jericho ... that lady is the wife that is all
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 02:14:28 PM
There's more. I've literally been reading these depositions all day lolsmh.

So, 3 of the people on this board were the church secretary, the head janitor (or head of maintenance, I think his title was), and finance clerk. The board asserts that Apostle Betty, in her right mind, signed a document making her an employee of the church, reporting to the board. The contract says that she will receive $157k a year (according to the representative for the members, "everybody knows" that Apostle Betty never took home a salary and she "said it many times proudly from the pulpit"). It says that she will remain pastor until she is mentally or physically incapable of pastoring. Now this document was supposedly signed May 28, 2009, right after the new "board" was formed and the old members "resigned."

So we are to believe that this Apostle - the senior and sole pastor and leader of this 10,000 member church and CEO of this multi-million dollar enterprise - willingly signed a contract making her an employee who reports directly to her secretary, finance clerk and maintenance man?

Seriously??? :-\ ?/?  After 40 years of being the head person in charge, why on earth would she want to become an employee on her death bed? What would she do that for???
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: THE WOLFMAN on April 20, 2012, 02:18:52 PM
i really dont follow chu'ch politics and all but reading that letter really grieved me.

dang.


Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 02:23:22 PM
They also fired the church's attorney (who was on the original Board of Trustees).

At this point, I've heard (read) pretty much everything from both sides. I don't know what the truth is, but I don't like what I see.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: under13 on April 20, 2012, 02:31:34 PM
Sounds like the plot of a Carl Webber book.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 20, 2012, 03:01:20 PM
Sounds like the plot of a Carl Webber book.

It really does.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: phbrown on April 20, 2012, 03:20:51 PM
just missing a few needed ingrediants


like a scandal or something
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: under13 on April 20, 2012, 04:04:08 PM
just missing a few needed ingrediants


like a scandal or something

Yeah, they need to add some fornicating musicians.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: funkStrat_97 on April 20, 2012, 05:17:48 PM
This is vicious.  This 'board of directors' or whatever they are have no reason to do what they are doing other than they just want power and money.  I do not believe that this is Spirit lead in any way, shape, or form and I feel badly for pastor Joel.  This church was founded by his father and lead by his mother for many ears.  His brothers preached there.  He is now the sole surviving member of his (nuclear) family and that makes it even that much more sad.  I hope and pray that during this period of injustice that pastor Joel let's Holy Spirit manifest himself through him and that his emotions don't get the best of him.  This may be his greatest opportunity to show Christ in the midst of this turmoil. 
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: phbrown on April 20, 2012, 08:50:17 PM
Yeah, they need to add some fornicating musicians.

ROFL!!! yep yep thats it!
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 22, 2012, 06:28:30 PM
Since being fired and locked out, Joel Peebles held a service at a nearby hotel.  His supporters tweeted that according to the hotel staff, over 3500 people attended the service today.

Tomorrow, I'm going to add some of my thoughts after reading all the depositions. I really need to blog about this. It's a really "sensational" story and certainly very troubling. Unfortunately, it appears to be brought on, at least in part, by the late Apostle. No matter what the truth is (and I suspect we may never really know), there are some lessons pastors and church leaders need to learn from this.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: under13 on April 22, 2012, 06:46:37 PM
Somebody on FB said that the church parking lot was mostly empty at a time when it's usually full.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 22, 2012, 06:55:28 PM
Yeah, if 3500 people were at a hotel nearby, I'm quite sure that parking lot couldn't have been full...

So many sad parts to this story, but to think that they built this assembly from the ground up 40 years ago, and it could all collapse in a matter of months... it's really hard to believe. Part of me was hoping the son is vindicated and that a vast majority of the people follow/support him. But then reality sets in and I realize that if that happens, the already struggling church will probably go belly up... taking the manifestation of the Bishop and Apostle's legacy right along with them. That's really sad.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 23, 2012, 08:27:44 AM
Update:

The split group's website says that according to the hotel, 3500 people were in attendance. The news said 1500. Either way, there were a LOT of people there, and it appears that they didn't miss a beat. I saw dancers, PPT slides on the projector and lots and lots of people.

And the parking lot DID appear to be pretty empty.

(The video shows clips of the service).

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/congregants-follow-fired-minister-042212#83288456-1 (http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/congregants-follow-fired-minister-042212#83288456-1)
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 23, 2012, 08:40:26 AM
I can't help but appreciate the fact that the letter was crumpled up, and then uncrumpled to be scanned.

This may be irrelevant, but I have to question the wisdom of naming a church "Jericho City". Is there something about the Biblical city of Jericho that I don't know? I didn't know the city of Jericho was associated with Godliness and praise. I thought it wasn't supposed to even be rebuilt after the walls came down.

Anyway, this is really sad. Politics... smh

It doesn't look like it was crumpled up at all, to me. :-\

As for the name of the church, it was Jericho Baptist Church and then changed to Jericho/City of Praise. I don't think the city of Jericho was necessarily associated with Godliness, but I don't think that disqualifies it as the name of the church since there's more to the city than that. But you still have a good point. I guess... Idk. There are churches named Canaan, too. *shrug*
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 23, 2012, 08:54:04 AM
It doesn't look like it was crumpled up at all, to me. :-\

As for the name of the church, it was Jericho Baptist Church and then changed to Jericho/City of Praise. I don't think the city of Jericho was necessarily associated with Godliness, but I don't think that disqualifies it as the name of the church since there's more to the city than that. But you still have a good point. I guess... Idk. There are churches named Canaan, too. *shrug*

It does to me.  I was going to say something about it but decided against it.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: lordluvr on April 23, 2012, 09:03:17 AM
It does to me as well.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 23, 2012, 09:13:19 AM
Let me look again... lol.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 23, 2012, 09:15:28 AM
Ok I just looked.

Nah, it doesn't look crumpled up. It looks like almost every single bill in my pocketbook. *shrug*

Unless you're keeping the letter in your bible or some safe place, it's gonna get wrinkled. If you put it in your bag, it's gonna get wrinkled. To me, that letter looks like someone put it in their pocketbook. It literally looks like every piece of paper in my bag as I type this...

But... it could've been crumpled. I don't really see any importance whether it was or wasn't.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 23, 2012, 09:40:20 AM
Point.

This kind of thing is really messed up. But I'm glad that he's able to keep on keeping on. First the Crystal Cathedral, and now this?

And even before that, there were scores of churches (maybe even hundreds, idk) that have gone through (or are going through or WILL go through) the same thing. They either have no succession plan or don't have a solid plan. That's what happened here.

If what the board members are saying is true, the Apostle told them what she wanted, but never communicated it with her son or anyone else, so he has no reason to believe they're telling the truth. Another area where she went wrong (assuming the board members' testimony is true) is that she spoke negatively about her son to her employees. It wasn't anything big or significant (just typical stuff, if you ask me), but when you have people who are devoted to their pastor like that, it's a recipe for disaster. It's like how they tell you never to complain about your spouse to your family because long after you have worked it out and moved on, the family will still hold it against the spouse, not understanding the dynamic of the relationship. I think that's exactly what happened here.

It's really sad. We had a similar situation here in Atlanta when Nathan Simmons died, but it's not a mega church, so it didn't make the news. Very similar story, though. His wife ended up having to leave the church and start another one (with a similar name) and the church was split. Many followed her, many stayed, and some went elsewhere. Police were called, lawsuits were filed, etc.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 23, 2012, 09:40:53 AM
Whoops, typed that out of order, it should have been:

This kind of thing is really messed up. First the Crystal Cathedral, and now this? But I guess that's the kind of thing that happens when churches have so much enterprise going on.

But I'm glad that he's able to keep on keeping on.

You hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 23, 2012, 10:28:06 AM
I can't help but appreciate the fact that the letter was crumpled up, and then uncrumpled to be scanned.

This may be irrelevant, but I have to question the wisdom of naming a church "Jericho City". Is there something about the Biblical city of Jericho that I don't know? I didn't know the city of Jericho was associated with Godliness and praise. I thought it wasn't supposed to even be rebuilt after the walls came down.

Anyway, this is really sad. Politics... smh
I SO wanted to raise the Jericho point...
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: SirTJ on April 23, 2012, 10:54:58 AM
Truth really is stranger than fiction.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 23, 2012, 03:39:30 PM
Just watched a half hour clip of the service... looks can be deceiving, so I'll just say it like this: there were an awful lot of ushers in uniform, clergy in uniform, I counted 3 keyboardists, 1 drummer, a sax player, bass player, and percussionist, and probably about 20 dancers in uniform...

There was at least one person translating in sign language, everyone had programs. There were old people, older people, adults, kids, men, women.... no standing room in the ballroom, there was an overflow room that was filled as well, and people in the hallways who couldn't fit anywhere else.

I am really just fascinated by this, and curious to see how it will end. Praying for a God outcome and as little damage as possible.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 23, 2012, 03:41:53 PM
Just watched a half hour clip of the service... looks can be deceiving, so I'll just say it like this: there were an awful lot of ushers in uniform, clergy in uniform, I counted 3 keyboardists, 1 drummer, a sax player, bass player, and percussionist, and probably about 20 dancers in uniform...

There was at least one person translating in sign language, everyone had programs. There were old people, older people, adults, kids, men, women.... no standing room in the ballroom, there was an overflow room that was filled as well, and people in the hallways who couldn't fit anywhere else.

I am really just fascinated by this, and curious to see how it will end. Praying for a God outcome and as little damage as possible.
So... what part was deceiving?  From the article description, that sounds about right.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 23, 2012, 04:13:30 PM
So... what part was deceiving?  From the article description, that sounds about right.

No, that's not what I meant. :-[

I meant that instead of giving my take on it, I'll just give the facts. Fwiw, my take was that the whole church was there with him (I mean it looked to me like the whole music and arts department was there, to be honest, not to mention all the mothers, kids, ushers, security, clergy, etc.). I just didn't want to say it that way since it may not be the case. For all I know, the "other" congregation could have 5x that many and what I saw could've only been a drop in the bucket... that's what I meant. I didn't word it right.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: nessalynn77 on April 23, 2012, 04:16:29 PM
Ok, I get it now.  I was confused for a sec, lol.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Mysteryman on April 23, 2012, 04:17:23 PM
Ok I just looked.

Nah, it doesn't look crumpled up. It looks like almost every single bill in my pocketbook. *shrug*
This is funny. lol Hopes someone gets it.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 24, 2012, 08:24:55 AM
So I was thinking about the name Jericho this morning, and can't help but wonder if this saga has anything to do with the name. Whether the saga was inevitable because of the name, or whether the name was prophetic because of the saga.... or perhaps it's just a coincidence... Idk... but anyway, I was just thinking about it. A house divided against itself cannot stand; or in other words, the walls will come tumbling down.



Anyway, today's update:

Quote
Members of a divided Jericho City of Praise attended services at two locations on Sunday, the first time members of the church worshipped formally since Joel R. Peebles, the acting pastor and son of the church’s founders, was ousted and stripped of his membership last week.

About 300 members attended two somewhat subdued services in the megachurch’s Landover sanctuary, while a crowd of more than 3,000 crammed into a New Carrollton hotel...


Quote
The 8 a.m. service at Jericho was a much quieter affair. About 200 people were scattered across a sanctuary built for 10,000.... As he walked into the 10 a.m. service, with about 100 others, Tyrone Warner, a minister, said he supported the board of trustees and also plans to stay.



So 3000 support the pastor, 300 stay behind... something is terribly wrong here.

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/divided-megachurch-members-attend-two-services-amid-battle-for-control/2012/04/22/gIQA2CFiaT_story.html)

Pictures 3, 4, 9, and 10 speak for themselves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/jericho-city-of-praise-members-split-over-joel-r-peebless-ouster/2012/04/23/gIQAbx0xbT_gallery.html#photo=1 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/jericho-city-of-praise-members-split-over-joel-r-peebless-ouster/2012/04/23/gIQAbx0xbT_gallery.html#photo=1)
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: SirTJ on April 24, 2012, 08:49:06 AM
Rue is on top of this story like Watergate.  ;D
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: blyempowered on April 24, 2012, 08:51:28 AM
OMG! What a huge contrast! SMH!
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 24, 2012, 08:59:53 AM
Rue is on top of this story like Watergate.  ;D

I really am. I'm so fascinated by this story. I find it so hard to believe that this could happen to a 19k member church (I previously said 10k, but in the depositions, they testified that it has 19k members).

Which, btw, leads me to another fascinating detail. They testified that there are 19k members. The sanctuary seats 10k, and numbers had slightly declined since the Apostle's passing. 200 went to the 8:00a service, 100 went to the 10:00a service, and 3000 went to the hotel location. Where are the other souls???
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: SirTJ on April 24, 2012, 09:03:53 AM
It is fascinating, though I wish we would stop doing this to ourselves. Churches these days seem to be built around the leader. It makes me wonder what would happen to a mammoth place like The Potters House if, God forbid, something happened to Bishop Jakes. As the leader goes, so do the congregants it seems.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: blyempowered on April 24, 2012, 09:07:30 AM
It is fascinating, though I wish we would stop doing this to ourselves. Churches these days seem to be built around the leader. It makes me wonder what would happen to a mammoth place like The Potters House if, God forbid, something happened to Bishop Jakes. As the leader goes, so do the congregants it seems.

Oh, The Potters House is done.....done! #thatisall

I really am. I'm so fascinated by this story. I find it so hard to believe that this could happen to a 19k member church (I previously said 10k, but in the depositions, they testified that it has 19k members).

Which, btw, leads me to another fascinating detail. They testified that there are 19k members. The sanctuary seats 10k, and numbers had slightly declined since the Apostle's passing. 200 went to the 8:00a service, 100 went to the 10:00a service, and 3000 went to the hotel location. Where are the other souls???

Hmmm....good thought.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 24, 2012, 09:16:13 AM
It is fascinating, though I wish we would stop doing this to ourselves. Churches these days seem to be built around the leader. It makes me wonder what would happen to a mammoth place like The Potters House if, God forbid, something happened to Bishop Jakes. As the leader goes, so do the congregants it seems.

Y'know... I wrote about that.... ;D :)

But yeah, today's churches are definitely built around the leader - especially unaffiliated, independent churches, and especially pentecostal-type churches. I think that's part of a much larger problem, and I don't even have the brain capacity right now to unpack that... but it starts with pride and the ego. It trickles into this title problem we have, and it trickles into manipulation, it certainly trickles into the pastor as the central attraction of the church, and it trickles into the enterprise that the church has become.

But anyway.... *sigh*

As for Bishop Jakes, I have a hard time believing that a man as wise as he, doesn't have an effective succession plan. But hey, you never know. Pride is a beast.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 24, 2012, 09:25:47 AM
I really am. I'm so fascinated by this story. I find it so hard to believe that this could happen to a 19k member church (I previously said 10k, but in the depositions, they testified that it has 19k members).

Which, btw, leads me to another fascinating detail. They testified that there are 19k members. The sanctuary seats 10k, and numbers had slightly declined since the Apostle's passing. 200 went to the 8:00a service, 100 went to the 10:00a service, and 3000 went to the hotel location. Where are the other souls???

They got smart and went somewhere else.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 24, 2012, 09:37:07 AM
They got smart and went somewhere else.

Interesting implication.

Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: lordluvr on April 24, 2012, 10:04:14 AM
I really am. I'm so fascinated by this story. I find it so hard to believe that this could happen to a 19k member church (I previously said 10k, but in the depositions, they testified that it has 19k members).

Which, btw, leads me to another fascinating detail. They testified that there are 19k members. The sanctuary seats 10k, and numbers had slightly declined since the Apostle's passing. 200 went to the 8:00a service, 100 went to the 10:00a service, and 3000 went to the hotel location. Where are the other souls???
I remember years ago, my former pastor used to boast having over 200 members on our roster, but most Sundays, we'd have no more than 40 people in attendance, including guests and kids.  The reality was that some people joined as a matter of formality, but were never really "members", meaning they never really participated or became a part of the church culture.  Even though they hadn't attended for years, their names were never taken off of the church roster.  Perhaps Jericho is like that.  19,000 is the official church roster, but 7-10k may be the actual average attendance.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 24, 2012, 10:13:47 AM
I remember years ago, my former pastor used to boast having over 200 members on our roster, but most Sundays, we'd have no more than 40 people in attendance, including guests and kids.  The reality was that some people joined as a matter of formality, but were never really "members", meaning they never really participated or became a part of the church culture.  Even though they hadn't attended for years, their names were never taken off of the church roster.  Perhaps Jericho is like that.  19,000 is the official church roster, but 7-10k may be the actual average attendance.

Oh yeah, I'm sure 10k is more likely to be the Sunday attendance (or as Barna and others call it, "active membership"). I've seen videos of their services from when Apostle Betty was alive, and the sanctuary was usually full, but not overcrowded.

I'd estimate that after she left, they may have lost 10-15% (which is typical). So I'm still wondering where the other souls went. :-\
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: Arkhams Finest on April 24, 2012, 10:46:56 AM
It is fascinating, though I wish we would stop doing this to ourselves. Churches these days seem to be built around the leader. It makes me wonder what would happen to a mammoth place like The Potters House if, God forbid, something happened to Bishop Jakes. As the leader goes, so do the congregants it seems.

Y'know... I wrote about that.... ;D :)

But yeah, today's churches are definitely built around the leader - especially unaffiliated, independent churches, and especially pentecostal-type churches. I think that's part of a much larger problem, and I don't even have the brain capacity right now to unpack that... but it starts with pride and the ego. It trickles into this title problem we have, and it trickles into manipulation, it certainly trickles into the pastor as the central attraction of the church, and it trickles into the enterprise that the church has become.

As for Bishop Jakes, I have a hard time believing that a man as wise as he, doesn't have an effective succession plan. But hey, you never know. Pride is a beast.

Very true.

The pastor is meant to be an undershepherd.  Someone who helps us and guides us to walk in righteousness.  He delivers the Word, teaches, admonishes.

We have elevated the man of God to demigod status.  He must NEVER be questioned.  Questioning him is rebellion.  His word is law and must be obeyed at all times.  There are many, many wonderful blessings that he is authorized to pronounce on us for our unwavering loyalty. 

Did I mention obey?  ALWAYS obey.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't obey our pastor.  It's more a matter of how we see the pastor, and more importantly, how the pastor sees him/herself.

Is there any question as to why he would end up in sin?  We've enabled him.  He goes and comes unchecked, unquestioned.  There is no accountability.

How do we change this culture?  That's hard to answer...seeing as the people in authority have a vested interest in continuing this hero worship.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: SirTJ on April 24, 2012, 10:50:19 AM
And when the captain goes down, he takes the ship with him. That's something they hammer into us in my PR classes. If you build an entity around one person, you are setting yourself up for a crash and burn. Penn State and Joe Paterno = prime example.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: LaylaMonroe on April 24, 2012, 11:03:45 AM
^^^^^ Very good stuff, RJ.

SMH.

I don't see this culture changing in our lifetime.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: blyempowered on April 24, 2012, 12:23:53 PM
^^^^^ Very good stuff, RJ.

SMH.

I don't see this culture changing in our lifetime.

Me neither...
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: phbrown on April 24, 2012, 08:51:07 PM
And when the captain goes down, he takes the ship with him. That's something they hammer into us in my PR classes. If you build an entity around one person, you are setting yourself up for a crash and burn. Penn State and Joe Paterno = prime example.

apple steve jobs?

sorry couldn't resist

oh and Layla i like the tumbling down part when discussing the name Jericho...

hmm ... does this same problem happen in churches that are not independent? Such as the catholic church? I mean there have been many popes ... so I would venture to say that the independant mega church movement is in the minority? I might need to try to count one day the number of independant mega churches with memberships about 10k.
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: phbrown on April 24, 2012, 08:51:52 PM
so many red squiggly lines in that above post
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: SirTJ on April 24, 2012, 08:56:49 PM
apple steve jobs?

 ?/? ?/? ?/?
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 25, 2012, 06:21:40 AM
so many red squiggly lines in that above post

Yet, you did nothing about it.  :-\
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: csedwards2 on April 25, 2012, 11:22:07 AM
Yet, you did nothing about it.  :-\
IRT your av, smart move sir ;)
Title: Re: Jericho City of Praise - and the bigger picture
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 25, 2012, 11:32:29 AM
IRT your av, smart move sir ;)
:D :D