LearnGospelMusic.com Community

Gospel Instruments => Gospel Guitar => Topic started by: musicbishop on May 24, 2012, 06:18:10 AM

Title: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: musicbishop on May 24, 2012, 06:18:10 AM
Did anyone else on here really struggle with nailing theory? I'm not a total dummy or anything but I have the hardest time wrapping my head around it. I'm totaly interested in it but, after so long of not catching on I get lost in the shuffle. So, if you did struggle with it how did you overcome it? I believe theory is really of great importance to be a good player so I don't want to miss out. Help me please!!!
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: funkStrat_97 on May 24, 2012, 06:32:43 AM
Did anyone else on here really struggle with nailing theory? I'm not a total dummy or anything but I have the hardest time wrapping my head around it. I'm totaly interested in it but, after so long of not catching on I get lost in the shuffle. So, if you did struggle with it how did you overcome it? I believe theory is really of great importance to be a good player so I don't want to miss out. Help me please!!!

Not really.  I'm not an expert, but I have a good working knowledge of theory mixed in with some trial and error.  Theory is but another tool that can help you get to where you want to go.  Is there a particular area that confuses you? 
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: betnich on May 24, 2012, 12:06:14 PM
To me, it was like learning a language....theory can be a struggle, until we 'get it' and it is not...always a learning curve to anything new...
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: musicbishop on May 25, 2012, 05:09:34 AM
Not really.  I'm not an expert, but I have a good working knowledge of theory mixed in with some trial and error.  Theory is but another tool that can help you get to where you want to go. Is there a particular area that confuses you?

I wish I could pinpoint a certain area but it's all like BLAH to me  :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: gtrdave on May 25, 2012, 09:23:06 AM
My biggest eye opening moment with theory came some 15+ years ago when I was studying Jazz Improvisation @ a small L.A. music school
The teacher (an amazing musician named John Daversa) taught us how to dissect a song by knowing the key, knowing the chords and melody and understanding where the song would move in and out of key (so to speak) based on the chords and melody. This was also very helpful in teaching me about modes and when to play certain notes from certain scales, etc...
He used a few jazz standards as his song examples as they have a real basic structure, but they do take small twists and turns through the progression. Plus, they commonly have extended chords (7ths, 9ths, 13ths, etc) that help stretch your understanding beyond the basics.
From that I "got" theory beyond the basic I-IV-V progression.

Since theory is such a big elephant that you have to eat in small bites, start simple. For example, take C major diatonic scale and make a chord progression using basic 1-3-5 triads through the scale. Can you do this or is what I typed all greek to you?  ;D
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Fenix on May 27, 2012, 01:39:54 PM
I didn't really "struggle" with theory. This was largely due to having taken music classes in high school and college before really embarking on an instrument. So when it came time to pick up guitar, it wasn't really hard. The only difficult thing was getting the technique down.
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Gibby on May 29, 2012, 07:23:44 AM
Theory wasn't too bad.  It actually opened my eyes to how certain music was composed.

I wish I could take a theory class...I learned by books...
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: sjonathan02 on May 29, 2012, 09:33:13 AM
My biggest eye opening moment with theory came some 15+ years ago when I was studying Jazz Improvisation @ a small L.A. music school
The teacher (an amazing musician named John Daversa) taught us how to dissect a song by knowing the key, knowing the chords and melody and understanding where the song would move in and out of key (so to speak) based on the chords and melody. This was also very helpful in teaching me about modes and when to play certain notes from certain scales, etc...
He used a few jazz standards as his song examples as they have a real basic structure, but they do take small twists and turns through the progression. Plus, they commonly have extended chords (7ths, 9ths, 13ths, etc) that help stretch your understanding beyond the basics.
From that I "got" theory beyond the basic I-IV-V progression.

Since theory is such a big elephant that you have to eat in small bites, start simple. For example, take C major diatonic scale and make a chord progression using basic 1-3-5 triads through the scale. Can you do this or is what I typed all greek to you?  ;D

I would love to be able to take a class like that.  Or even watch a good DVD on the subject.  :-\
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Sweetplayer on May 29, 2012, 06:17:08 PM
THROW THEORY OUT THE WINDOW
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: funkStrat_97 on May 29, 2012, 09:27:09 PM
THROW THEORY OUT THE WINDOW

.........don't do that unless you want to have a state of musical anarchy and chaos!  But then again, look at the current state of the pop music industry; I digress  :(
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Gibby on May 30, 2012, 05:43:14 AM
.........don't do that unless you want to have a state of musical anarchy and chaos!  But then again, look at the current state of the pop music industry; I digress  :(

Y'all leave Rown alone...y'all know he hates theory...
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: musicbishop on May 30, 2012, 07:21:50 AM
Theory wasn't too bad.  It actually opened my eyes to how certain music was composed.
I wish I could take a theory class...I learned by books...

That's exactly why I really want to learn it plus I think it would be very beneficial when playing with other musicians. I think I've come to a point where I want to progress too fast then I wind up nowhere because instead of taking it slow I just let it go  :-\
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Gibby on May 30, 2012, 09:51:08 AM
That's exactly why I really want to learn it plus I think it would be very beneficial when playing with other musicians. I think I've come to a point where I want to progress too fast then I wind up nowhere because instead of taking it slow I just let it go  :-\

yeah man...coming from an area where guitarists were very few, I had to know theory to be able to talk to other musicians.  :-\
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: MattKid on May 30, 2012, 10:26:12 AM
Learning theory for theory's sake is a waste I tend to learn it as I need it, plus a little more to keep me intrigued and progressing. It's one of the reasons I just joined here, to find out more about functional harmony and Jazz harmony especially in Gospel style music.
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: gtrdave on May 30, 2012, 11:37:04 AM
Learning theory for theory's sake is a waste I tend to learn it as I need it, plus a little more to keep me intrigued and progressing. It's one of the reasons I just joined here, to find out more about functional harmony and Jazz harmony especially in Gospel style music.

Here's how I see things...

Music is a form of communication...a language.
Music theory is the structure and building blocks with which the language is communicated clearly and uniquely.
Knowing how to play a little bit of music and not really understanding what it is that you're playing is akin to knowing how to speak a little bit of the English language and not understand how to read it or print/type it out.
Therefore, to me, music theory, even knowing a little bit of it, is essential for understanding what you're doing and/or what you want to do and it sure helps when communicating with others who know the same language.
I've known some okay players who know little to no theory, but I've never met an excellent musician who didn't know their theory.
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: MattKid on May 30, 2012, 11:52:38 AM
That's pretty much what I mean.

When I could strum a D, G and A chord, I knew they were the 1, 4 and 5 chord from the key of D, I didn't need to know about tritone subs at that time, but probably went on to learn about the relative minor.

Knowing a ton of theory but not being at a place to apply it to music is what I meant as a waste, not theory itself.
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Sweetplayer on May 30, 2012, 07:02:53 PM
Y'all leave Rown alone...y'all know he hates theory...
;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Sweetplayer on May 30, 2012, 07:26:36 PM
By the way,Did i tell everybody.I got to shake hands,with PRINCE.Hey man,whatever float the boat.If you digging theory cool.My ears are my theory.Gospel music these days,is pretty simple.Half step,whole step >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: qsark on May 30, 2012, 08:18:32 PM
That's pretty much what I mean.

When I could strum a D, G and A chord, I knew they were the 1, 4 and 5 chord from the key of D, I didn't need to know about tritone subs at that time, but probably went on to learn about the relative minor.

Knowing a ton of theory but not being at a place to apply it to music is what I meant as a waste, not theory itself.


That's where my struggle is...being able to take what I know and learn and apply it when I am playing instead of relying on my ears so much.
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Gibby on May 31, 2012, 07:05:13 AM
By the way,Did i tell everybody.I got to shake hands,with PRINCE.Hey man,whatever float the boat.If you digging theory cool.My ears are my theory.Gospel music these days,is pretty simple.Half step,whole step >:( >:( >:( >:(

No pic = Never happened  ;D
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: gtrdave on May 31, 2012, 08:54:21 AM

That's where my struggle is...being able to take what I know and learn and apply it when I am playing instead of relying on my ears so much.

The thing that most people will tell you is that you learn the theory and then you "forget it" and just play. What you know will flow out naturally.
Again, like I learned in my class, dissecting songs and understanding the theory inherent in them is a good way to learn about theory in regards to chord progressions, scales, melody, harmony, etc...
Any honest musician will admit that learning theory isn't so much about rules, it's about freedom.  8)
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Sweetplayer on May 31, 2012, 11:22:00 PM
No pic = Never happened  ;D
Why yes I did,AT THE greeboro colisum(there a e,in there somewhere.take a picure.Man i was scare enough.I called his name.I  actually bout passed out.When i called his name,he looked at ME,aND GAVE ME A HIGH FIVE.i JUST TOOK A SLEELING PILL i EXPLAIN IT BETTER SOON.mAN I AM OUT OF IT
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: jlynnb1 on June 02, 2012, 01:08:33 AM
THROW THEORY OUT THE WINDOW

one of the most ridiculous statements i've ever read....ALL music is built on theory. without theory we'd have atonal garbage and that's it.

theory informs your playing, gives the foundation to build from, the framework to work in/out of at your discretion. it is in no way a hindrance to freedom or improvisation.

if people would learn just a basic understanding of theory there would be none of these "do you know the chords to this song" or "what scale should i play over this" threads. it is the basic building blocks of all music, period. music's DNA if you will.

Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: funkStrat_97 on June 02, 2012, 07:23:31 AM
one of the most ridiculous statements i've ever read....ALL music is built on theory. without theory we'd have atonal garbage and that's it.

It would be like learning to drive a car without learning the rules of the road. 
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: dwest2419 on June 09, 2012, 05:55:48 PM
The only theory I know is about the major scale how that it's made up of whole and half steps.

For example

Major scale formula: W W H W W W H

C to D is a whole step
D to E is a whole step
E to F is a half step
F to G is a whole step
G to A is a whole step
A to B is a whole step
B to C is a half step

And that's all I really know I dont know the formula for the rest of the modes. Can someone provide me with the formula to the rest of them please?
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Sweetplayer on June 09, 2012, 08:07:01 PM
Well,let`s be real.I can get down.With the best of them.I say it again,throw theory out the window.Gospel music is soooo easy 8)
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: jlynnb1 on June 10, 2012, 09:47:40 AM
do not feed the troll, do not feed the troll, do not feed the troll...
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: betnich on June 10, 2012, 04:51:09 PM
Even though CCM chord progressions are (mind-numbingly) easier? Hmmm....tempting.
;)
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Sweetplayer on June 10, 2012, 05:02:17 PM
But you are inevitably using theory when you get down. You just don't know what to call it. You know that THIS note goes with THAT note, but THE OTHER note sounds funkier... for some... mystical reason that you dare not try to understand.

But NOT everybody can take that approach. Not everyone has that kind of ear and self-learned theoretical knowledge.
8)
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Sweetplayer on June 10, 2012, 05:06:08 PM
Even though CCM chord progressions are (mind-numbingly) easier? Hmmm....tempting.
;)
That is so true.Even though,must hymns are1,4,5 ;).uriah said something interesting about hymns.He play them chord melordy style ;)
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: betnich on June 10, 2012, 07:51:30 PM
That is so true.Even though,must hymns are1,4,5 ;).uriah said something interesting about hymns.He play them chord melordy style ;)
The thing about classic 4-voice-part SATB Hymns is that every syllable on every word is harmonized - so the chord changes are not once a measure or 2-3 measures, but on every note. That's why it's so hard for most guitarists and bassists to follow along - most end up simplifying the chord progressions...
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: funkStrat_97 on June 10, 2012, 08:12:44 PM
That is so true.Even though,must hymns are1,4,5 ;).uriah said something interesting about hymns.He play them chord melordy style ;)

I've said before in another thread, but the I IV V is a the heart of most chord progressions that we encounter and even then, you can eliminate the IV chord (using a sus4 instead) and get away with essentially playing only two chords; the I and V......but not always. 
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: Gibby on June 10, 2012, 09:19:26 PM
do not feed the troll, do not feed the troll, do not feed the troll...

Lol!!!
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: jlynnb1 on June 12, 2012, 12:49:26 PM
The thing about classic 4-voice-part SATB Hymns is that every syllable on every word is harmonized - so the chord changes are not once a measure or 2-3 measures, but on every note. That's why it's so hard for most guitarists and bassists to follow along - most end up simplifying the chord progressions...

the vocal harmonies are implied over every syllable, but that's not the same as a chord changing on every syllable. the underlying chord is what gives the vocal harmonies foundation to work off of.
Title: Re: Theory: it's a struggle
Post by: betnich on June 12, 2012, 02:00:27 PM
the vocal harmonies are implied over every syllable, but that's not the same as a chord changing on every syllable. the underlying chord is what gives the vocal harmonies foundation to work off of.

I was thinking of Classic Hymns such as "A Mighty Fortress", where the harmonies (chords) change on almost every note.
Even in the few places where they do not change from one chord to another, they tend to change inversions (bass notes).
Other 18-19th-century hymns and Gospel songs (like Amazing Grace) are less intense, usually changing chords every measure or so, except for the cadences at the end...