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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: LaylaMonroe on June 15, 2012, 12:33:26 PM
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Anybody have an opinion on this?
Today, the Obama administration announced that "people younger than 30 who came to the United States before the age of 16, pose no criminal or security threat, and were successful students or served in the military can get a two-year deferral from deportation...
It also will allow those meeting the requirements to apply for work permits, Napolitano said, adding that participants must be in the United States now and be able to prove they have been living in the country continuously for at least five years."
Needless to say, the Republicans are going nuts. This new policy will affect about 800,000 illegal immigrants. What say you?
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I like it! At least they get a chance. Maybe there should be some accountability measures with it such as required citizenship or something like that. Overall I'm pretty liberal on illegal immigration.
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I like it! At least they get a chance. Maybe there should be some accountability measures with it such as required citizenship or something like that. Overall I'm pretty liberal on illegal immigration.
REQUIRED CITIZENSHIP?!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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I actually agree with that policy. To some of those kids, this is the only home they know, and they one day just get sent "back" for something over which they had no control. I had a client who didn't even know she was illegal, I had to tell her that her SS Card was fake. Her uncle had set the whole thing up and got her false documents, etc. I know the letter of the law says they weren't born here so they're not citizens, but I have compassion for those in this particular situation.
Actually, I have compassion for all of them (except maybe the criminals), it's just that amnesty is not a good way to handle the adult cases.
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REQUIRED CITIZENSHIP?!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Uh what I do? ;D
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We (the three of us) are so politically anomalous. :D
I just have to SMH. I don't understand y'all and I don't understand me either. :D
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We (the three of us) are so politically anomalous. :D
I just have to SMH. I don't understand y'all and I don't understand me either. :D
LOL!!
*looking up the word "anomalous" on my dictionary.com app*
Oh yeah! I agree...LOL!
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I'ma have to say no, I do not agree with this.
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I believe there's some ambiguity in the language. How does one, who is illegal, know the date when he/she arrived to the U.S.?
Beyond that, how can it be proven?
Other than that, I believe I like the fact that, as Nessa stated, we're giving the folks who have only really known the U.S. as home the chance to stay.
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Yeah Rue when it comes to immigration and welfare, you turn into a republican, lol!
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Yeah Rue when it comes to immigration and welfare, you turn into a republican, lol!
THIS!!
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How does one, who is illegal, know the date when he/she arrived to the U.S.?
Check the school records.
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Yeah Rue when it comes to immigration and welfare, you turn into a republican, lol!
I cannot deny that. :D
And when it comes to immigration and welfare, YOU turn into a Democrat! :D :D :D :P
But yeah, I've always been very socially liberal and fiscally conservative.
Nessa and Jonathan, you two are leaving something important out. The new policy includes "children" who came to the US by the age of 16. That means that there are God-knows-how-many people who aren't included in the folks who only know the US as home. I might be able to find a little bit of compassion in my pinky toe for the ones who came here as babies and are really American in every sense of the word, except on paper. But what about the ones who came here at 16? Or at 12? They know their home countries just as well as they know this one. I'm not saying it's an easy fix. It's not. I really struggle with this issue, and I always have. But I can't get past the fact that we're giving passes to people for breaking the law. AND, we're sending a message overseas that we're soft on illegal immigration, and that if you get your kids over here, we may kick you out but we'll let your kids stay.
And how on earth do we pay for all this? That's my biggest problem that NO DEMOCRAT has yet to answer for me. We're already in tough straits right now. I wish President Obama would put a price tag on this and include it in his speech so that people know what they're supporting. Where is this money coming from???
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Then you have states like Michigan, and plenty of other states, that are changing their welfare making it difficult for people to get help when they need it because they simply don't have the funds to support all those who have needs. So we can't take care of our own citizens, but we can take care of others? :-\
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I cannot deny that. :D
And when it comes to immigration and welfare, YOU turn into a Democrat! :D :D :D :P
But yeah, I've always been very socially liberal and fiscally conservative.
Nessa and Jonathan, you two are leaving something important out. The new policy includes "children" who came to the US by the age of 16. That means that there are God-knows-how-many people who aren't included in the folks who only know the US as home. I might be able to find a little bit of compassion in my pinky toe for the ones who came here as babies and are really American in every sense of the word, except on paper. But what about the ones who came here at 16? Or at 12? They know their home countries just as well as they know this one. I'm not saying it's an easy fix. It's not. I really struggle with this issue, and I always have. But I can't get past the fact that we're giving passes to people for breaking the law. AND, we're sending a message overseas that we're soft on illegal immigration, and that if you get your kids over here, we may kick you out but we'll let your kids stay.
And how on earth do we pay for all this? That's my biggest problem that NO DEMOCRAT has yet to answer for me. We're already in tough straits right now. I wish President Obama would put a price tag on this and include it in his speech so that people know what they're supporting. Where is this money coming from???
Because I'm working on about three things at once, I didn't mention that in my post but I did think about it when mentioning the ambiguity in the language.
And of course, 'who's footin' the bill' is always the question.
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How many jobs are these people taking away from legal citizens, and how many kids are they having?
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Then you have states like Michigan, and plenty of other states, that are changing their welfare making it difficult for people to get help when they need it because they simply don't have the funds to support all those who have needs. So we can't take care of our own citizens, but we can take care of others? :-\
Now this, is the best question of all. There are no easy answers. Do we just ship them back?
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How many jobs are these people taking away from legal citizens, and how many kids are they having?
That also reminds me. Another expense is ESL. I have no idea what the number is, but I can only imagine how expensive it is to provide ESL services for so many people. When I was in elementary school, my town had 12 schools and only one of them had ESL classes. Anyone who spoke a different primary language had to go to that school. It was a good school, fwiw. But now, all the schools have ESL. That has to be costly, no? Faculty, space, curriculum, materials...
As for the jobs thing, I think the counter-argument is always that they're not taking our jobs, they're taking the jobs we don't want.
Because I'm working on about three things at once, I didn't mention that in my post but I did think about it when mentioning the ambiguity in the language.
And of course, 'who's footin' the bill' is always the question.
Gotcha. Maybe we'll get more clarity when he makes his speech.
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Yeah Rue when it comes to immigration and welfare, you turn into a republican, lol!
I believe I do as well...lol.
Why are the replubicans so mad?!!! Didn't Reagan do something similiar to this during his 1st four years in office?
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Now this, is the best question of all. There are no easy answers. Do we just ship them back?
I meant *changing their welfare policies.... oops.
But yeah, I agree there are no easy answers. This is one of those subjects where I really can't propose any alternative because jailing them is cruel and expensive, shipping them back is expensive (and it could suck, depending on the circumstances)... it's just a tough call... but I DON'T believe that letting them all stay, no strings, is the answer.
I do have a heart, though. I was really saddened by one guy who was deported in his fourth year of college. I really wished I could've done something to help him.
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I believe I do as well...lol.
Why are the replubicans so mad?!!! Didn't Reagan do something similiar to this during his 1st four years in office?
I suck at history, so I don't know if Reagan did.... but I will say this: even if he did, that doesn't make it right. The Republicans are mad because (a) they hate President Obama, and (b) he made a bad call, giving amnesty to nearly a million people who came here illegally, even if it wasn't their fault.
"Many illegal immigrants will falsely claim they came here as children and the federal government has no way to check whether their claims are true," Smith said in a statement. "And once these illegal immigrants are granted deferred action, they can then apply for a work permit, which the administration routinely grants 90% of the time."
In a Twitter post, Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the decision "avoids dealing with Congress and the American people instead of fixing a broken immigration system once and for all."
The first quote speaks to Jonathan's point. The second quote is another one of my concerns. Why do we keep focusing on the consequence and not the problem? It's like putting buckets down instead of fixing the leaky roof.
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That also reminds me. Another expense is ESL. I have no idea what the number is, but I can only imagine how expensive it is to provide ESL services for so many people. When I was in elementary school, my town had 12 schools and only one of them had ESL classes. Anyone who spoke a different primary language had to go to that school. It was a good school, fwiw. But now, all the schools have ESL. That has to be costly, no? Faculty, space, curriculum, materials...
As for the jobs thing, I think the counter-argument is always that they're not taking our jobs, they're taking the jobs we don't want.
Yeah, the town I grew up in had a large immigrant population. A lot of them bring the test scores way down, which brings the school system rating down, which brings property values down while bringing taxes up to pay for all of these esl classes.
I don't buy that. To say the least
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The problem for me, is reconciling ideology with the bottom line. In theory, it's only right to have compassion on people when their country is in such a dire situation, that they try to escape to improve their lives. We've always lived in this country and it's always been for the most part a good place to live. I just imagine it being me born in area with extreme poverty and extreme crime, and trying to leave that place and go to a better place, while risking my life and my freedom in the process. I can't fault them for wanting to leave for their children's sake. However, I don't know how to make it right financially where it doesn't take from the citizens of this country. But I know from my upbringing it's only right to want to have compassion and to help people in such a situation.
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The problem for me, is reconciling ideology with the bottom line. In theory, it's only right to have compassion on people when their country is in such a dire situation, that they try to escape to improve their lives. We've always lived in this country and it's always been for the most part a good place to live. I just imagine it being me born in area with extreme poverty and extreme crime, and trying to leave that place and go to a better place, while risking my life and my freedom in the process. I can't fault them for wanting to leave for their children's sake. However, I don't know how to make it right financially where it doesn't take from the citizens of this country. But I know from my upbringing it's only right to want to have compassion and to help people in such a situation.
In principle, I totally agree with you. I don't see how anyone can disagree because it's just logical.
HOWEVER, I think that in some cases, our impression of just how bad some people have it is incorrect. For example, Atlanta has a LOT of Mexican immigrants. I. mean. a. lot. But Mexico, as a whole, is not that bad a country. It has one of the world's largest economies and there are a lot of people in Mexico who do very well. I'm guessing that the folks who come here probably live in the more depressed and dangerous cities... but instead of moving illegally to another country, why not just move elsewhere in your country, where you are still a legal citizen?
That's not a rhetorical question. I really don't know the answer.
I guess the ones from oppressive places, like Saudi Arabia and the like, I can understand why they would move here... but even then, I think there are other places (like Algeria) that would be as good a fit, if not better... and legal.
I guess that's what I'm not getting. I get wanting a better life for your kids. I don't get breaking the law to get it. And I don't get having kids if you know you can't give them a good life in XYZ country (barring exceptions, of course).
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The problem for me, is reconciling ideology with the bottom line. In theory, it's only right to have compassion on people when their country is in such a dire situation, that they try to escape to improve their lives. We've always lived in this country and it's always been for the most part a good place to live. I just imagine it being me born in area with extreme poverty and extreme crime, and trying to leave that place and go to a better place, while risking my life and my freedom in the process. I can't fault them for wanting to leave for their children's sake. However, I don't know how to make it right financially where it doesn't take from the citizens of this country. But I know from my upbringing it's only right to want to have compassion and to help people in such a situation.
Some people might try to escape America because they feel that way...however, I don't see any country, besides us, allowing individuals to prosper illegally
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Some people might try to escape America because they feel that way...however, I don't see any country, besides us, allowing individuals to prosper illegally
You know, there are actually TWO good points in there.
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Some people might try to escape America because they feel that way...however, I don't see any country, besides us, allowing individuals to prosper illegally
Hmmm. Interesting. Well we're suppose to be the land of opportunity so....
How many other countries in the world are as "prosperous" as we are?
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Some people might try to escape America because they feel that way...however, I don't see any country, besides us, allowing individuals to prosper illegally
I understand your overall point but it's not 'escaping' America. We're free to come and go as we please provided our passports are up to date. Now, that's off the top of my head, there may be more to it than that but I'm not certain.
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I understand your overall point but it's not 'escaping' America. We're free to come and go as we please provided our passports are up to date. Now, that's off the top of my head, there may be more to it than that but I'm not certain.
Not really. I learned a little bit about this when I was trying to move to Spain last year and earlier this year.
Sure we can come and go (MOSTLY) as we please, but we sure can't stay anywhere we please for as long as we please. Other countries have rules, just like we do... but they enforce theirs without compromise. Other countries are a lot stricter about visitors and immigration than the US is.
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Hmmm. Interesting. Well we're suppose to be the land of opportunity so....
How many other countries in the world are as "prosperous" as we are?
You mean were.
I'm thinking that the America of old...the prosperous one...is gone, dead and buried. It's been replaced by the new America w/ the ultra-rich and greedy on one side and the ever-increasing poor on the other.
I'm on the fence with the immigration/amnesty thing. My heart says 'in the name of compassion you can stay'. My head says 'you're illegal, you cost the system money, you need to go "home" and make things right there'.
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Not really. I learned a little bit about this when I was trying to move to Spain last year and earlier this year.
Sure we can come and go (MOSTLY) as we please, but we sure can't stay anywhere we please for as long as we please. Other countries have rules, just like we do... but they enforce theirs without compromise. Other countries are a lot stricter about visitors and immigration than the US is.
You know what, I wasn't looking at it from the other country's POV. Thanks for that.
Other country: Sure, come on over. Hang out for awhile. Spend your money...
..then GET. OUT!!! :D :D
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You mean were.
I'm thinking that the America of old...the prosperous one...is gone, dead and buried. It's been replaced by the new America w/ the ultra-rich and greedy on one side and the ever-increasing poor on the other.
I'm on the fence with the immigration/amnesty thing. My heart says 'in the name of compassion you can stay'. My head says 'you're illegal, you cost the system money, you need to go "home" and make things right there'.
THIS.
THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSS.
All the way.
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You know what, I wasn't looking at it from the other country's POV. Thanks for that.
Other country: Sure, come on over. Hang out for awhile. Spend your money...
..then GET. OUT!!! :D :D
Exactly. LOL
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You mean were.
I'm thinking that the America of old...the prosperous one...is gone, dead and buried. It's been replaced by the new America w/ the ultra-rich and greedy on one side and the ever-increasing poor on the other.
I'm on the fence with the immigration/amnesty thing. My heart says 'in the name of compassion you can stay'. My head says 'you're illegal, you cost the system money, you need to go "home" and make things right there'.
Yea, that's about the size of it, I believe.
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Well we are the ones whose harbor says give me your poor huddled masses... Of course that was directed to people from the east, not the south. And my understanding is its not as easy as all that to come up in Mexico. You can't just up and replant yourself in a better area. It's not an environment where anybody can work their way up like it is here. Immigrants prove to us all the time that you can come here with nothing and work hard and build a decent life. It's not so in other countries, we're just used to that being the case because we live here.
I know plenty of Mexicans who love Mexico/El Salvador and are only here because they had no other way to improve their state of affairs. Do you think people risk their lives to come here and be treated like this because it's fun? If the tables were turned, many of us would do the same.
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Well we are the ones whose harbor says give me your poor huddled masses... Of course that was directed to people from the east, not the south. And my understanding is its not as easy as all that to come up in Mexico. You can't just up and replant yourself in a better area. It's not an environment where anybody can work their way up like it is here. Immigrants prove to us all the time that you can come here with nothing and work hard and build a decent life. It's not so in other countries, we're just used to that being the case because we live here.
I know plenty of Mexicans who love Mexico/El Salvador and are only here because they had no other way to improve their state of affairs. Do you think people risk their lives to come here and be treated like this because it's fun? If the tables were turned, many of us would do the same.
I agree.
As for the rest, I'm comfortable taking your word for it because you work in that field and I don't. I don't know anything about Mexico. :-\
Oh, but one thing that just crossed my mind... sure you can come here with nothing and make something out of your life, but you're cutting a lot of illegal corners to do it. You're not paying taxes, you're stealing an education, you're not paying for healthcare... and probably more stuff that I'm not considering.
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I think a lot of them would gladly contribute if we let them. But therein lies the problem. No one wants to allow that. Suddenly income is countable and trackable and they have to answer to big brother like the rest of us. But then that means they have a voice, too, and many Americans don't want that.
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I think a lot of them would gladly contribute if we let them. But therein lies the problem. No one wants to allow that. Suddenly income is countable and trackable and they have to answer to big brother like the rest of us. But then that means they have a voice, too, and many Americans don't want that.
Have you considered the ramifications of us letting them? Making it legal for them to come over with no regard for border laws, visa rules, immigration laws, etc? I mean, there is no doubt in my mind that many (if not most) illegal immigrants would contribute to American society if they were allowed to. Most of them are here because they're hungry, and hungry people work harder and stay focused.
I don't know if it's a matter of no one wanting to let them contribute as much it is a feasibility issue. How reasonable is it to let 11-12 million people who are here illegally become legally employed?
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You mean were.
I'm thinking that the America of old...the prosperous one...is gone, dead and buried. It's been replaced by the new America w/ the ultra-rich and greedy on one side and the ever-increasing poor on the other.
I'm on the fence with the immigration/amnesty thing. My heart says 'in the name of compassion you can stay'. My head says 'you're illegal, you cost the system money, you need to go "home" and make things right there'.
Ahhh gotcha! Makes perfect sense. To me it seems like this "new" America has always existed in some dimension. Maybe not as obvious as it is now but in the past? Absolutely!
I understand being on the fence.
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I'm not talking about making it legal to come, I'm talking about doing something with the otherwise law abiding ones that are here.
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You mean were.
I'm thinking that the America of old...the prosperous one...is gone, dead and buried. It's been replaced by the new America w/ the ultra-rich and greedy on one side and the ever-increasing poor on the other.
Ahhh gotcha! Makes perfect sense. To me it seems like this "new" America has always existed in some dimension. Maybe not as obvious as it is now but in the past? Absolutely!
I understand being on the fence.
That's exactly it. People always thought that the elite actually cared about them because of certain privileges they were given, but now their true colors are showing, and those who were not hip to the game are mad. To put it nicely.
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I'm not talking about making it legal to come, I'm talking about doing something with the otherwise law abiding ones that are here.
Yea, but what exactly, Ness? That's the thing, and we still haven't figured out who's payin' for them to stay prior to them being able to 'pay it forward' by stimulating the economy.
And, what about the non-law abiding ones? Do we deport them as soon as they commit a crime?
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Yep. Deport.
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I'm not talking about making it legal to come, I'm talking about doing something with the otherwise law abiding ones that are here.
Yeah, but don't you think that will give the others an incentive or motivation to come? If you see someone get away with something, and even benefit from it, and you're in the same dire situation, won't that kinda give you a little push to try it?
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Marco Rubio says he would come to the US illegally if he had to (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/marco-rubio-says-come-u-illegally-had-111859436.html)
Marco Rubio is a Republican and possible running mate for Mitt Romney.
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I think that the president did the right thing.. I know too may people.. from all over .. who grew up here.. and for all intents and purposes are American.. they went through the U.S. school systems.. many don't speak their "native" language.. and had nothing to do with coming here.. I also think that honorable military service should count for something.. especially if you served in combat.. or were wounded.. This was not a blanket amnesty though..
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Simple solution:
Deport the crimminals.
Tax the rest! Welcome to America!!
To portray all hispanics as "downtrodden" masses is like 1960's racism.Watch " the Magnificent Seven";how the local people were portrayed in a demeaning way as lame or criminals.I think the hispanics have progressed from that point.
The Atl Journal had a piece last summer about one illegal who had been here 20 + years,had several business,made a good life and had a fair amount on bucks.He had "paid" his dues by paying sales tax.Sales tax is about 5-10% depending on what state you live in.
So what about income tax(15-25%),Soc Sec/Fica (about 16%) ;why does he get a 40% break?
If I;as USA citizen did that-the government would prosecute/seize/tax/imprison etc..I could do much better (and so could you with another) 25 %disposable income.So,I agree-let's EVERYBODY be fair and pay!!
Make it simple,you came here in "X" year,so " X " dollars per year/per family -you OWE us $$$.
I don't see folks acknowledging that there is $$$$ value in being a USA citizen;ya know-freedom,safety.Too many people have and continue to dis we have had the best situation in general as far as a country.Look @ So America,China,Russia-some serious crimminal stuff.
It show in the amount of genocidal hatred -for some reasons even Americans hate this country.
For those who are truly oppressed financially as immigrants- that's a separate issue for consideration.
Lastly;in our ever dumbing down of our "educational "process-does it ever occur that this nation was bought and PAID for-in BLOOD? So because somebody else paid for it;we're going to give it away for free? What a dishonor to those killed or maimed( even as we speak).
What is being
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got interrupted!
What is being done is a continual "positioning" of groups pitting one against the other.If you tell a group long enough "you're oppressed ,broke,dumb,etc.." that lie become believable.A curse is put on folks,they learn to use it as a crutch,walk in it,believe it and enjoy it!! You would think the Church would like "wake up,get it rebuke it".I don't see that happening,for the most part-the church just gets on the bandwagon.Talk about the "foolish virgins".
If obama was ANY serious about immigration reform;he had TWO years where he controlled BOTH houses.He never brought it to the table.Gotta question his motive now;oh yeah,an election in 6 months and thos "rascully rebelious repubs".
On sunday- MeeT the Press;John McCain made the remark that Bush nearly had the Dream Act passed in 07'.The reason he gave for it being torpedoed?Some "hooks"/provisions put in by BHO and the dems-the UNIONS opposed the whole quest worker provisions.It would weaken the unions.
While he can do presidential edicts,circumventing the law and constitution might be a challenge.
The Supreme Court will need to get a raise for all the extra work/challenges.
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political move .... agreed with it at first but not so much now
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I'm afraid that I don't agree with this policy at all. To me this sets a dangerous precedent...see to me this type of decision should be left up to congress to make......not the President. >:(
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I'm afraid that I don't agree with this policy at all. To me this sets a dangerous precedent...see to me this type of decision should be left up to congress to make......not the President. >:(
Yea, they'd be SO much better at it. ::)
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I'm afraid that I don't agree with this policy at all. To me this sets a dangerous precedent...see to me this type of decision should be left up to congress to make......not the President. >:(
So Obama can do this without congress? ?/?
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It is stretching it quite a bit 13.Presidential powers give some latitude;but I would think NOT in this case.You have existing law(s) and rule(s) of order which he is sworn to uphold.
If this was an issue he was serious about;since he ignored his 2 year majority in Senate and House; a better way since the Senate is still democratic controlled would have been to do a bill there.
Between this,Fast and Furious,his dis of the Supreme Court does give the appearance of arrogance towards the other 2 branches(Congress/S Court).
I've heard a few pundits wonder if he's trying to get impeached.Even some dems up for reelection seem to be putting distance( W Virginia,NY ,Penn)they would like to keep their jobs.
too crazy for me to figure out
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he most definitely secured 1/6th of america vote for the democratic party for the next 40 years