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Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: fenderjazz on April 18, 2005, 12:20:10 PM

Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: fenderjazz on April 18, 2005, 12:20:10 PM
What's up everybody?

Lately I've been wondering if gospel music is too worldly. I understand that many of today's artists want to find the most effective way to reach people and I'm not knocking anyone. However, I wonder is God pleased when His music is barely distinguishable from an ordinary RnB record. I'm not just referring to contemporary gospel but most of the old hymns as well. It seem like most of our music is a variation of different genres of secular music. The hymns sound like the blues and ragtime then the contemporary stuff sounds like RnB and jazz. I believe that we can create a music more compelling than anything in the world without having to sound so much like the world. Where do you all think we should draw the line in how gospel music sounds? If the world can create so many types of music, each with its own distinction we should be able to do so as well.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: kadman92 on April 18, 2005, 12:36:11 PM
Music is Music.... it has no lyrics.  I understand familiarity with secular R&B and HipHop can stir up back in the day thoughts.  But if we can successfully turn the music around and use it for the kindom I say go for it.  Lets have a RED LIGHT party for JESUS.  Lets get Giggy for Jesus.  Just cause we're christian don't mean our music has to be stuffy and sound as far from secular music as it posibly can.
Title: Let the church be the unmovable originators
Post by: DuvalsLilJohnLumpkin on April 18, 2005, 01:53:22 PM
Christian musicians should not recycle themes from the WORLD whether they came from the church or not. The reason is because its already been tainted. Example: Making your clean clothes dirty, and putting them back with the clean clothes. If the clothes had minds of their own, would the clean begin to question themselves because the unclean now dwells with them? The bible says let there be a difference BETWEEN clean and unclean. And I am fully aware that I am speaking against something that has been excepted by some mainstream gospel artist and musicians, but HOLINESS is still right. We have a connection from on high which no other style of music carries. That's why gospel artist and musicians can sing and play many different stlyes. But, have you ever noticed that no matter how hard some secular artist try, they never make it in gospel music like they did in the world. Why? When you answer this question, you will then answer why licks and loops shouldn't be taken from the world and put in gospel music.
Title: a can of worms well worth opening!..MY OFFICIAL OPINION!
Post by: uriahsmusic on April 18, 2005, 06:52:31 PM
:D [/b]
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: Spiritfingers on April 18, 2005, 11:16:45 PM
Fender,

You a trip man!  You know fingers has something to say!  Actually I don't see my post about the Holy Spirit.  Somebody made a good point though...No matter how the "secular artist"  try to do Gospel, they'll never accomplish it because the gospel is not only the good news which it is commonly referred as but is actually the Good news of Jesus Christ.  The Holy Spirit annointing is what it takes to destroy yokes and those who are under the influence of demonic force will never be able to testify to the goodness of Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, while I heard someone say what the bible speaks about as clean and unclean and I'm not going to get into whether that's old or new testament.  Fact is...Jesus Christ and the work he did on the cross was a work of grace.  The Apostle Paul spent 13 books (the Pauline Epistles) trying to get the Gentiles and the Jews to understand that Jesus Christ died for the unity of the believers.  Paul actually had Timothy circumcized even though he preached against practicing the law.  You ask, what is Finger talking about and what does this have to do with gospel music.

Romans 14, Paul encourages elder saints not to complex young believers with what God has revealed to them.  It's a tragedy but we all do it!  We place the burden of what the Holy Spirit is dealing with us about and make it someone else's burden.  If people respond to our conviction without being instructed by the Holy Spirit, then they're just practicing religion, because it's not a labor of love.  

Fender,

I would say that God is dealing with you about this thing and that's outstanding!  You should seek him as to the answer, because you love him and want to please him.  However, I would encourage you to refrain from opening yourself up, like this because you'll hear something and not be lead by the Spirit but you'll be lead by someone's flesh, even mines.  Romans 8:14 As many as are lead by the Spirit of God, are called the sons of God.  He's dealing with you and you're in an awesome place.  The reason why I caution you on this is because we all have different opinions as you will see... but the Kingdom of God is not about right or wrong, does or don't, good or evil, it's about righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Romans 14:17)  Now, do what you need to do in order to maintain these three!  

Once again, I didn't mean to give you all my doctoral dissertation but, I'm a teacher long before I'm a bassist.  If you would like to discuss more in detail, let me know, if you don't, I still love you man and I pray that God get the glory of your life.  After all, IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM ANYWAY!


Fingers!
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: B3Wannabe on April 19, 2005, 01:17:48 AM
Quote
Christian musicians should not recycle themes from the WORLD whether they came from the church or not. The reason is because its already been tainted.



If that's the case then we might as well go back to singing hymns because that's what the jazz and bebop musicians did years ago. That Hezekiah Walker cd that you like or that 1970 Shirley Caesar cd would be devil's music if you take it back 100 years! I say ask the people who the music ministers too if it was to worldly for them.

Music is going to change whether we like it or not and God's music is no different. We won't be able to contain God's music into parameters that we've decided are acceptable. I think songwriters and musicians have a big responsibility when they take on that job. I feel that when we write music we're essentially becoming preachers and teachers, so if we steer someone wrong with out message (and we know it), God will hold us accountable for all those people that it affected. So when we add secular music into our playing and the intent is to stir the crowd, we're teaching young musicians that it's ok to do that, steering them wrong.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: BBoy on April 19, 2005, 05:30:16 AM
Can I give 2 cents?

The Bible commands us in the Book of Romans not to judge another's household servant, because it is to his Own Master that the servant stands or falls.

The Book of Romans gives us the example of judging days. One man judges a certain day as more holy than another. Another man judges every day alike.

If a man observes a certain day, unto the LORD does he observe it. If another man doesn't observe that day, unto the LORD doth he not observe it.

It also gives the example of eating meats and herbs. Some could only eat herbs. Others could eat meats. Paul said that if you can eat meat, don't judge someone who can't because unto the LORD do they eat those herbs.

And those who eat only herbs, don't judge someone who doesn't serve you. They are not your servant. Unto the LORD do they eat meat.  

Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. That is what the Bible says.

Now, if a person can't play contemporary gospel, then no one can say that they are bound and need freedom from whatever. They are not your servant. Unto the LORD do they refuse to play contemporary gospel.

IF another person can play contemporary gospel and play it unto the LORD, then no one call them carnal. Unto the LORD do they play it. They are not your servant, so let them be fully convinced in their own mind.

I know of some very gifted musicians who play only gospel but they have a certain contemporary feel. I learn a lot from them; they are a blessing.

Let them ask their own pastor, who is ultimately responsible for the services and the teaching of their own people.

Just my two cents.

Be Blessed.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: Perfessor on April 19, 2005, 07:07:03 AM
In my staid, United Methodist Church there are four old guys, well they are older than me, who played " When the Saints Come Marching In" down the Isle with four horns blaring. It was very light hearted and made everyone's day. A year later the young organ/piano player we have was studying for a doctorate! in piano and played the same ragtime song he was to play for his test for the church to surprise the pastor, who smiled and laughed out loud at the song. These tuned out to be very light hearted and intimate, friendly moments.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: B3Wannabe on April 19, 2005, 08:55:53 AM
@Bboy: I like that. That's good advice or should I say....good scripture?
Title: just my opinion!
Post by: uriahsmusic on April 19, 2005, 09:44:22 AM
MUSIC IS NOT JUST MUSIC.....AS A PRODUCER I KNOW THAT MUCH OF THE COMMERCIAL MUSIC TODAY IS CREATED TO BRING OUT A PERSONS SEXUALTY...GETTING THE GROOVE JUST SO....SO THAT YOU WILL MOVE A CERTAIN WAY....THESE THEMES ARE IMPOSED UPON THE PUBLIC BY PEOPLE WHO GENERALL LIVE BY AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STANDARD THAN WE DO!
.....EVEN THE OLD SCHOOL GOSPEL WAS JUST BLUES!....MANY OF THE MELODIES THAT WE SING TODAY AS GOSPEL TUNES WERE BAR SONGS OF THE PAST....
....THE GOSPEL WE CALL TRADITIONAL WAS PLAYED THE SAME WAY BLUES WAS PLAYED BACK IN THE DAY...

YOU SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE MUSIC OF THE DAY BECAUSE WE USE THE MUSICIANS OF THE DAY....SO THE MUSIC CHANGES ACCORDINGLY!

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE MUSIC...IT IS WHAT THE MUSIC IDENTIFIES WHEN IT IS PLAYED!....UNLIKE IN TIMES PAST THE MUSIC AND THE PERFORMANCE AND THE MOTIVE OF TODAYS MUSIC IS PURPOSELY SEXUAL....AND BECAUSE IT IS SO OBVIOUSLY COPIED FROM CONTEMPORARY R&B AND HIPHOP WHICH IS DIRECTLY ASSOCIATED WITH SEX, VIOLENCE AND BASICALLY UNCHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR...
IT TAKES ON AN EXTRA AIR OF INAPPROPRIATENESS.

SO WHAT DO YOU DO……
I THINK THAT THE OLDER MUSIC CAME FROM A DAY WHEN THE TIMES WERE MORE INNOCENT (INTENT WISE) AND THERE IS NO WAY TO CONSTRUE THAT MUSIC AS WORLDLY TODAY.
SO STICK TO THE OLD TIME WAY….

IF YOU PLAY THE MUSIC AND BOOTIES START SHAKIN LIKE IN A CLUB…YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG MUSIC…

IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOSPEL SONG THAT CAN BE TAKEN TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE…YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG MUSIC….

DOES IS MENTION JESUS?...GOD…HOLY SPIRIT….IF IT DOESN’T YOU SHOULD WONDER WHY!

IF THE MUSIC OBVIOUSLY ILLISITS ANYTHING THAT IS UNCHRISTIAN THEN YOU SHOULD BEWARE OF THE APPEARENC OF EVIL….(NOT WORTH IT)

I CAN GO ON AND ON…BUT ONE THING THAT I CAN PROMISE YOU!
THE CHRISTIAN MUSIC INDUSTRY IS BEING RUN BY FOLKS WHO WANT MONEY!...AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT YOUR SALVATION…SO BEWARE!
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: LadyWiz on April 19, 2005, 11:26:09 AM
Quote from: BBoy

If a man observes a certain day, unto the LORD does he observe it. If another man doesn't observe that day, unto the LORD doth he not observe it.

It also gives the example of eating meats and herbs. Some could only eat herbs. Others could eat meats. Paul said that if you can eat meat, don't judge someone who can't because unto the LORD do they eat those herbs.

And those who eat only herbs, don't judge someone who doesn't serve you. They are not your servant. Unto the LORD do they eat meat.  

Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. That is what the Bible says.



Amen, BBoy ~ you always have something worthwhile (the WORD) to say   :wink:
Title: Amen
Post by: Divinecontroller on April 19, 2005, 12:55:34 PM
We should all be led by the Spirit and when there is something being played inappropriate then you get that feeling in your soul. I do want to point out one thing that you said, that Gospel is just blues, actually I believe it is the other way around. Gospel was there before blues and when gospel musicians and singers were influenced to sing outside of church venues, they took what GOD taught them and applied it to what they were doing.

Today's music (most) is purely unadulterated sex material. There was a time when people took the music and melodies that were divinely inspired and used them to praise GOD or at least to convey their feelings in a tasteful way. I do concur that music is a form of expression that is used to say what you feel melodically, So tasteful music I can still listen to and appreciate, (even if it is not "Gospel") if it is respectful and tasteful. But nowadays how often does that happen?

A lot of Gospel songs don't mention the Lord or any relationship with him because they are trying to reach a certain audience. I believe that if GOD is drawing them, then they will be reached without a compromise of integrity. But that's how people are, they have turned their intentions from pleasing GOD to trying to please themselves.  :lol:
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: Spiritfingers on April 19, 2005, 09:04:54 PM
Guys,
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHECK THIS OUT BUT GOT TO WWW.EXMINISTRIES.COM

ORDER THE DVD AND LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK!

ELDER CRAIG HAS A MAKES SOME GOOD POINTS ON THE SUBJECT BUT STILL IT'S TO THE INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS LEVEL OF FAITH!
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: JoashStilltheman on April 20, 2005, 09:17:31 AM
I had a raised a similar question in the Piano room but in this case it was " is it right for gospel musicians to copy secular songs" where you find musicians taking some mainstream song and changing the lyrics to make is a gospel song.

Well I would say that such questions are always misunderstood as judging others or adopting a "holier than thou" attitude. But it's not the case. We all want to do what is pleasing to God otherwise we could be wasting our time doing things for Him while He does not take pleasure in them.

I'd also say it's pretty hard to draw a line to what gospel music should sound like. We need to realize that musical instruments have become modernized. David in the bible used a harp which is more like piano in this case I think. But still guitar is also a stringed instrument and that's why we use it. You can produce different styles with these two. It's true that traditional gospel sounds like the old time blues.

Like Bboy said, the attitude of the heart is most important. But also we should take into consideration that we do not step on other people's toes with our music. The safest way is to be original. God is a creator and we should follow His footsteps.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: T-Block on April 20, 2005, 10:51:24 AM
uriahsmusic wrote:

Quote
MUSIC IS NOT JUST MUSIC


What do you mean music is not just music?  Music is just music.  The way you feel about a certain beat is purely personal.  I can hear certain music and feel happy, while others can hear that same music and get sleepy.  You can't say that just because you think a certain beat makes you think about sex that others are going to feel that way.  You have to get that statement across by adding words that talk about sex.  I totally disagree with you and anybody else who feels like music is not just music.
Title: Well
Post by: Divinecontroller on April 20, 2005, 12:04:10 PM
I agree to an extent with Uriah that music (in the sense of notes and chords ) is just music, it's when you put the lyrics to the music that you shape the presentation. Kindda like cooking food, when you cook it there is a preparation process but when you present the food if it is all slopped together with no garnishments then your attitude and acceptance can change toward the dish (unless it's something your grandma or mama made, then it don't matter) :)

There are some beats that I have heard though that just don't seem to represent any type of gospel or praise mood. But once again that's how I feel and it is usually because it is all ready associated with something that is not righteous at all. I believe music is divinely inspired and what you do with it after you are inspired with it is your responsibility. We have to take a responsibility as musicians to be led by GOD and his Holy Spirit. Lyrics and words are separate in a whole lot of instances. You can play some chords to some secular music in a particular situation or mood and I don't believe it to be offensive.

I keep seeing people post that Gospel sounds like Blues... are we saying that there was Blues before Gospel or what. It's of my opinion that Blues singers have modeled some of the nuances and sounds of Gospel and created Blues. We also really need to go way back to Africa concerning Black Gospel because a lot of the music, tones, and harmonies that we developed came from music that we allready used and sung in the Motherland. Channel 19 PBS had a great special on Blues and African music, I will have to find the information and post it on here. In the end the spirit should lead you and guide you on what is appropriate....
 :)  :D  :lol:
Title: TO BE CLEAR!!!!
Post by: uriahsmusic on April 20, 2005, 12:23:57 PM
...I STILL SAY THAT WE NEED TO TAKE CONTROL OF THIS INDUSTRY....NOTICE THAT I CALLED IT AN INDUSTRY....WE SIT AND ACCEPT IT AS IF IT WERE GOD'S INTENT...IT IS NOT!...IT IS THE INTENT OF GREEDY UNSAVED INDIVIDUALS CAPITALIZING ON OUR NIEVITY AS WE FOOLISHLY PERPETUATE THE MARKET BY PURCHASING EVERYTHING SET BEFORE US!
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: uriahsmusic on April 20, 2005, 12:27:58 PM
What do you mean music is not just music?  

IT IS NOT JUST MUSIC...IT IS A PLAN BY INDUSTRY LEADERS TO GET YOU TO BUY WHAT THEY PUT OUT....IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS , GOD...THE SPIRIT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT....THE FARTHER YOU STRAY FROM GOD THE EASIER IT IS TO GET A RECORD DEAL....
Title: Educate
Post by: Divinecontroller on April 20, 2005, 02:42:40 PM
I think what we have to do is educate each other more like the opportunity that is available on sites like this. If we take control of the products that we make and purchase then we would be able to exercise more control. However we are sometimes just too lazy and complacent and uneducated to make a change in our community and our lives. It is a slow process right now. We of course need to pray that GOD lead us and guide us to start controlling our lives and incomes and for those of us that feel that we need to take the industry back, then we need to start building labels and companies and putting out musicians and artists that exemplify real gospel and if the Lord give increase then the path will be illuminated.
Title: a thought
Post by: uriahsmusic on April 20, 2005, 02:59:05 PM
building a label is one of my goals....I have seen stiff opposition from radio types that you need to play the material...the REAL problem is keeping the money out of the mix!...you have to build something that doesnt need..use..or follow the system that exsists....and the motive would need to not revolve around money!....
Title: What About?
Post by: Divinecontroller on April 20, 2005, 04:18:38 PM
Have you thought about an internet label and radio station. Those are doing really well right now. I guess the sacrafice is not worrying about mainstream exposure which is kind of a catch 22, because you are trying to get people that have taken a hold of the airwaves and adopted corruption and partiality to money to play tasteful and respectful music. I would think that you would have to get away from the mainstream to get the mainstream audience, but who are we kidding that philosophy has taken over a lot of the churches as well and so it is all about money. Do what you can do and I will pray that the Lord lead us and help us to attain the things that we desire in our heart. I have seen the things that you have to offer in your lessons and the posts that you have. I know that GOD will bless you to attain that goal. Let me know if there is any other way that I can help you cause I would be glad to.
Title: thanx
Post by: uriahsmusic on April 20, 2005, 05:03:47 PM
I am working on it....i will deffinately contact you for help!
Title: GOD Blessed
Post by: Divinecontroller on April 20, 2005, 05:41:05 PM
Where 2 or three are gathered together touching and agreeing in my name (JESUS) I will be a GOD in their midst.
At your service Brother.  8)
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: B3Wannabe on April 20, 2005, 06:52:52 PM
I remember attending a rehearsal recently where the musicians remixed a song that they were singing. I look at them like "OMG! That's RUN DMC!". When I told them, they honestly said that they had no idea. To them it just sounded good. That music could also be viewed as tainted, but how would they know if they had never heard it? On the extreme side, someone could do some rock move that Marilyn Manson had used without knowing it. I know I've never heard any of his music, so I'd really be shocked if someone told me. Would I stop using it then? I don't know, because it wouldn't have been my intent in the first place. I may though....just because....Marilyn Manson is someone whose music I wouldn't want to play around with.
Title: Which song gets your inner-Jesus jumping?
Post by: B3Wannabe on April 21, 2005, 01:44:50 AM
This:

http://www.brownfloyd.com/gallery/displayimage--964.html


or this:

http://www.brownfloyd.com/gallery/displayimage--965.html
Title: Yeah
Post by: Divinecontroller on April 21, 2005, 04:47:30 PM
Well this goes back to letting the Spirit lead you. All music has been played before. There is not a new chord or melody, just variations and different arrangements. Once you add the lyrics it plays a detrimental part in the spirit and nature of the song. I agree that if you were to listen to some Marilyn Manson music that there is a possibility that you may find some similar melody or chord, but it is the spirit in which it is presented and that presentation that makes the difference. I think you can feel in your spirit when someone invokes something of a worldly nature into a spiritual song or atmosphere. GOD has given us the power to rebuke those things and spirits that are in conflict with his. Use your power if you possess it, if you don't it's past time that you be getting about getting that power.

The second track is more lively but it will depend on the mood and the situation. The frist track is some of that old school gospel and harmonics that kindda point to the bluesy references that we discussed earlier. That's why I think Blues and a lot of other music was lifted from what African Americans started as Gospel and Hymnal music.

Hey not to venture off of the subject, but what do you guys think about the remake that Cheryl Pepsi Riley did of "What If GOD Was One Of Us"? Actually this is kind of an example. The original probably wouldn't be classified in the Gospel category but I really love her version and it really moves me. Please let me know what you guys think on this one. I may even have to start a new post on this subject. It's on the "Diary Of A Mad Black Woman" soundtrack.

 :lol:
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: 7stringer on April 23, 2005, 12:27:19 AM
My $.02

 Im new to gospel but allready a pro in other formats. Music connects us all in multiple ways...rythm is inherent in us all...melody is inherent in us all...playing a bass solo at 3 in the morning is inherent in us all. This is Gods gift.

 Most of my gigs are blues gigs, but i know many musicians who play blues at night and church in the morning....do I think less of them..NO, God gave them the ability to play different styles...

  In my life the lines drawn on what music is and isn't have been my own shortcommings and negative influences.  

  heres the question that I cannot find an acceptible answer to...What is tradition?  And before that? And before that? And before that? What is considered "tradition" was once "radical".
Title: Concernig gospel that sounds too worldly
Post by: nardo73 on May 12, 2005, 02:54:06 AM
Concernig the gospel that sounds too worldly. You have to remember that God will use anything that he want's to get us to give him the glory.  Gospel music ministers to those who give a ear to it. We as his servants are here to take back everything that the locust stole from us, and (If it's the music that's been stolen or perverted) we have to take that back so that God get's the glory out of it. After all when life was taken from us, Christ himself died on the cross and went to hell to take back what the enemy stolen from us. (Now "death where is your sting")?
     I also want to add that we should be careful not to knock someone else's ministry, because there ministry is toutching people like drug dealers, etc. that we can't ordinarily toutch. I think there's a big mis-education in the body of christ. Hip-hop and secular music was never really born in the church, but on the streets, which caused a big gap between both styles of music. When these styles are callaborated, artist like, Kirk Franklin and others reach millions of souls who would never really listen to gospel, that's a big change from ten or fifteen years ago, when gospel had no appeal to mainstream. Anyway. (Christ can't return until every man hears his word and that he is lord), and sitting in our churches alone is not gonna get it.

                                                                        God Bless People
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: fenderjazz on May 12, 2005, 02:40:37 PM
Gospel music that sounds worldy is a demonstration of the influence that the world has on the Church. That is not to say that all gospel musicians should only play old hymns, but why is it that whatever becomes popular in the world always has to be popular in gospel? Marketing a gospel CD to a broader demographic than typical church-going Christians is one thing. Causing a drug-dealer who knows nothing about Jesus to realize why he needs to repent and receive salvation is something entirely different. Jesus effectively ministered to some of the worst kinds of sinners, but he never compromised his identity to do it. The Bible says for us not to conform to this world, but in our music we immediately conform to whatever the new trend is. I personally believe if we seek God, He will give us a music far more compelling than anything out there.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: Nakia518 on May 12, 2005, 03:57:51 PM
My 2 cents...

In the old testement, music was intended to worship God. From what I read in psalms, "Praise him with all instruments".
My opinon is all music should worship God period. What is in the secular world (and this is what the enemy does) is preverted. Anything that we do/use/say to worship god has been preverted in the world. Before we knew what secular was all we knew was gospel. Think about slave time... It wasn't until someone decided to make a change that the music became sexual/preverted/ungodly. I believe that in the time right now we need to take over the music industry and not conform to it. We need to fight to get gospel played on the main stream Prime time and not just on Sunday morning between the hours of 6:00a and 8:00a.

Have you heard what is being played on the radio? Its sickining. I stopped listening to the radio months ago. One because I got tired of what was being played and 2 because of what was being said on the radio. I was in the car yesterday with my brother and we were listening to 105.1FM(very popular in NYC) And I couldn't believe my ears. They were cussing and carrying on. Talking about who slept with who. Who had a baby by who. I mean really out there. Thank God For CD players and Gospel CD's. It just made me sick.

But again we need to take the preversion out of "Our" music. Because before man fell we were in close relationship with God and all he wants is for his people to come back to him.

Be Blessed
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: nardo73 on May 13, 2005, 12:48:53 AM
If Gospel music that sounds worldy is a demonstration of an influence the world has on the church, then we're certainly influenced by how we dress, eat, sleep and think. The word tells us not to become so spiritual that we become no earthly good. (I mean how is it that a person can't even talk to us about a foot ball game or the practical things in life, because we're to busy being spiritually minded that we loose the connection with them) I think that's where we lost alot of our youth today, It's not that we won't relate to them, but the fact that we don't know how to relate to them. (Maybe this isn't for everyone that don't have the heart or strength of David). But the word says in you I will do a new thing,this is not compromising our identity because we sing a new song. It's the same word, with a new melody which impacts millions for the current time leading many into a new season.
     Another thing on this note is that we as ministers and muscians  can't measure the word of God, why? because it will suprise you every time. My biological cousine was raised under the islamic faith, and was heavily dealing with drugs and a number of issues, but there deliverance came through listening to a marketable Gospel CD that reached them in that low place. (God Is Awsome) And now God uses them to bless others in ministry.
     Gospel music should not have any stipulations on how it should be played, neither should the word of God, it should cater to all. After all was it not the Jews who thought of the gentiles as unclean, remember there's a need for all nations and people to hear the gospel no matter the style, It's time to plant the seeds.

                                                                    God Bless
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: fenderjazz on May 13, 2005, 09:51:48 AM
The Bible says let ALL things be done decently and in order. So there has to be at least some stipulations in all levels of ministry in order to distinguish between decency and indeceny. Throughout the Bible, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, God has always required his people to be different from everyone else. This isn't always convenient or logical but it has to be maintained. Then too, we can't get so caught up in being different that we adopt a "holier-than-thou" attitude. There should be some balance. The Bible also says that no man can come to God unless the Spirit is drawing him. If God is drawing someone by His spirit, it really isn't necessary to dress the music up in a Ludacris costume for God to save people. God did say He would do a new thing in us and the Bible says sing a new song. I'm not sure He meant for us to find out what the new thing or song is in the world and attach the word Christian or Gospel to it. I've never listened to a rap song and said "Oh, I thought that was a country song." I've never listened to a rock song and said "Oh, I thought that was house music." However countless times I've listened to gospel and said "Oh, I thought that was R&B, or rap, or jazz, or whatever." There's something unsettling about that. It's almost like the world has become our example instead the people of God being their example.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: nardo73 on May 13, 2005, 09:39:36 PM
Please don't misunderstand the things that are writtin. Music is a interpretation of the word of God, just like preaching is an interpretaion of the word of God. But in this interpretation of music, there is a language that speaks to a particular group people that will here what it's saying.
     History shows that we went from old negro hyms, to the bules, and then gospel. We've evolved through the times like a bad habit. So then, how pure could that style of music have been if it was the word that brought us our liberty. I beleive peter seen someone casting out demons, and because they were dressed in diffrent it baffiled him, jesus corrected him and said there not against us but for us. How could we judge. (Where the spirit of the lord is, they is liberty). People can be healed
     If I handed down an older suit to my son, and he wears it out of appreiciation, sooner or later he will begin to find his own interpretation of how he should wear that suit or even get  newer threads. He's still the same person with the same priciples, but with a new suit.
     Technically speaking, our first translation of the bible was called the Septuagint, or LXX. 70 scholars were brought to Alexandria, Egypt to create it's Greek translation. This work began around 280 B.C. Then came the Sinaitic Manuscript-A.D. 340 which was written in Greek, and can be located in the British Museum. The Vatican Manuscript-A.D. 350 (Italy), Alexandrian Manuscript-A.D. 450 (British Museum), Ephraem Manuscript-A.D. 450, Latin Vulgate-A.D. 450. John Wycliffe's was the first English version-1382, Miles Coverdale was the fist to print the English version, the Geneva Bible-1560 by william Whittingham was the first to use verse and chapter divisions. Then came the King James version-1611 and many, many, many versions were made after it, like the N.I.V. and the A.M.S. version and others to follow. It doesn't mean we're less pure or out of order, but we have a new interpretaion, and that's not wrong in God's eye's because we don't speak that original language as the Greeks or Hebrews but we have various interpretations of the word.
     You know I think we should never forget God's instuctions on worship, because in the end we'll be judged for what's in our hearts and our measure of faith.  Truth is, some people aren't sincere about new or old gospel music, but that's for God to judge. But if he can use a mule to talk to someone, then he can use anything to get the message across, and I don't want a donkey to talk to me because I'm not doing what I'm suppose to.

                                                                                         God Bless
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: tak on May 14, 2005, 03:35:22 AM
Quote from: Spiritfingers
Guys,
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHECK THIS OUT BUT GOT TO WWW.EXMINISTRIES.COM

ORDER THE DVD AND LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK!

ELDER CRAIG HAS A MAKES SOME GOOD POINTS ON THE SUBJECT BUT STILL IT'S TO THE INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS LEVEL OF FAITH!


I've had the DVD for at least two or three months.  Our Church presented at Bible Study a while ago.  Souls were saved, lives changed, CDs destroyed, spirits fed, strongholds shattered, understanding & knowledge were gained.  People don't seem to fully grasp the gravity of music.  Aside from facial expressions music is the only international means of expression that transcends every boundary save the ability to hear (and bass vibration surpasses that).  It is truly powerful and engages/grasps the mind more effectively than 13yrs of schooling.  We certainly must not forget satans most recognized gift.  What caused him to be cast out.  What is one of his most powerful and INFLUENTIAL tools.  

The reason it is so hard to distinguish good music/bad music is that it is not as easy as distinguishing black from white.  So satan in his craftiness sees the oppurtunity in that.  So we must be vigilant (1Pet 5:8.)  It is a decision that must be made spiritually.   In faith, for w/o faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).  We must be honest with ourselves about what music does to us.  It is what you are feeding your mind, your spirit.  When we listen we're listening to more than a sound.  There's motive in music.  If faith comes by hearing (Rom 10:17) then so can things detrimental or opposite to faith by hearing.

Everyone has an opinion but as Christians we must seek "what thus saith the Lord" the Bible says seek knowledge at the priests lips i.e Holy Bible based knowledge (Mal 2:7).  With that said...

I think the EXministries DVD should be watched by every Christian who has anything to do with music (listening or playing).  It is an annointed ministry that boldly tells what should've been told afore and has scripture and experiences to back it.  Definitely a ministry that boldy seeks to edify the church in love and knowledge.  Desparate to recue the church from a sleep of complacent naivity and ignorance.  He that hath an ear...

HOSEA 4:6  Don't reject it inject!
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: tak on May 14, 2005, 03:50:01 AM
ROMANS 14:23
"for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
This is a general rule, or axiom, which is not only applicable to the present case, but to any other, whether of a natural, civil, moral, or evangelic kind: "whatsoever does not spring from faith", as the Arabic version renders it, cannot be excused of sin; whatever is not agreeable to the word and doctrine of faith, ought not to be done; whatever is done without faith, or not in the exercise of it, is culpable, for without faith nothing can be pleasing to God; and whatever is contrary to the persuasion of a man's own mind, is so far criminal, as it is a violation of his conscience; whatever men do, especially in a religious way, they ought to make faith of it, or to be fully persuaded of it in their own minds, or they act amiss.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: Robbace on May 14, 2005, 07:22:35 AM
Tak to update you on my progress things are going very very well my proffesor minister of music says that he wants me to step out soon and step up I am playing with the kids choir and praise team and the mens choir the band is very happy with everything and very surprised at how God has overflowed my progress God is making this instrument come alive in me giving all honor to my Lord and savior Jesus Christ

On with the subject our kids today are`widley influenced by the music that they listen to you you can go to your kids and throw out all of the cds that they have and they will find a way to listen to the music they want and whether someones head is bobbling to the music or not what message are we putting out to the public when we are singing what is the motive is the Lord Jesus Christ on your mind and saving souls or are you trying to make a quick buck but Robbace will not listen to worldly music because my mind has to stay open to what the Holy Spirit is trying to lead `me to and I will not go out and buy a cd hat has one gospel song on it and the rest with the devils message comming accross full blast and that is one way they get you in your mind and the bottom line to all this when judgement day comes around no matter what we say those christian and non christians will be judges by our Lord and savior Jesus Christ on what the motive was behind the song were you trying to save the unsaved were you trying to make a quick buck without spreading my message and the crowns will be awarded accordingly and if there is a church that unknowingly uses an beat thats similar to worldly musiic but lives are being brought to the Father he will judge them accordingly the crowns will be set up according to the works of your hand my Lord God will judge these people we can say all we want but there is only one judge all praises to the Lord of Host God bless you all :)
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: nardo73 on May 14, 2005, 09:57:32 AM
AMEN!!
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: tak on May 14, 2005, 11:15:50 AM
Robbbace it brings me joy to hear that news. To hear God at work, I shouldn't be surpised because He's always doing something great.  But I get excited when I think about Jesus and all He does for us, especially knowing if He can do it for you I know He can do it for me too.

I concur. Amen. That's what we must alll realize; that He is the judge of the quick and dead (Acts 10:42).  We must work out our own salvation (Phlp 2:12).  Everday we make eternal choices, we have got to walk according to His will not our philosophy or our own wisdom (foolishness) but in obedience to the Wisest all knowing God.
Title: Re: just my opinion!
Post by: jamaicanbaan on May 14, 2005, 12:58:05 PM
Quote from: uriahsmusic
MUSIC IS NOT JUST MUSIC.....AS A PRODUCER I KNOW THAT MUCH OF THE COMMERCIAL MUSIC TODAY IS CREATED TO BRING OUT A PERSONS SEXUALTY...GETTING THE GROOVE JUST SO....SO THAT YOU WILL MOVE A CERTAIN WAY....THESE THEMES ARE IMPOSED UPON THE PUBLIC BY PEOPLE WHO GENERALL LIVE BY AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STANDARD THAN WE DO!
.....EVEN THE OLD SCHOOL GOSPEL WAS JUST BLUES!....MANY OF THE MELODIES THAT WE SING TODAY AS GOSPEL TUNES WERE BAR SONGS OF THE PAST....
....THE GOSPEL WE CALL TRADITIONAL WAS PLAYED THE SAME WAY BLUES WAS PLAYED BACK IN THE DAY...

YOU SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE MUSIC OF THE DAY BECAUSE WE USE THE MUSICIANS OF THE DAY....SO THE MUSIC CHANGES ACCORDINGLY!

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE MUSIC...IT IS WHAT THE MUSIC IDENTIFIES WHEN IT IS PLAYED!....UNLIKE IN TIMES PAST THE MUSIC AND THE PERFORMANCE AND THE MOTIVE OF TODAYS MUSIC IS PURPOSELY SEXUAL....AND BECAUSE IT IS SO OBVIOUSLY COPIED FROM CONTEMPORARY R&B AND HIPHOP WHICH IS DIRECTLY ASSOCIATED WITH SEX, VIOLENCE AND BASICALLY UNCHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR...
IT TAKES ON AN EXTRA AIR OF INAPPROPRIATENESS.

SO WHAT DO YOU DO……
I THINK THAT THE OLDER MUSIC CAME FROM A DAY WHEN THE TIMES WERE MORE INNOCENT (INTENT WISE) AND THERE IS NO WAY TO CONSTRUE THAT MUSIC AS WORLDLY TODAY.
SO STICK TO THE OLD TIME WAY….

IF YOU PLAY THE MUSIC AND BOOTIES START SHAKIN LIKE IN A CLUB…YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG MUSIC…

IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOSPEL SONG THAT CAN BE TAKEN TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE…YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG MUSIC….

DOES IS MENTION JESUS?...GOD…HOLY SPIRIT….IF IT DOESN’T YOU SHOULD WONDER WHY!

IF THE MUSIC OBVIOUSLY ILLISITS ANYTHING THAT IS UNCHRISTIAN THEN YOU SHOULD BEWARE OF THE APPEARENC OF EVIL….(NOT WORTH IT)

I CAN GO ON AND ON…BUT ONE THING THAT I CAN PROMISE YOU!
THE CHRISTIAN MUSIC INDUSTRY IS BEING RUN BY FOLKS WHO WANT MONEY!...AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT YOUR SALVATION…SO BEWARE!



AMEN,      IF THAT AINT THE TRUTH...................
Title: well
Post by: insanesquirle on May 14, 2005, 10:43:23 PM
"I mean how is it that a person can't even talk to us about a foot ball game or the practical things in life, because we're to busy being spiritually minded that we loose the connection with them".

well personal i believe that you can have fun and you can talk about sports and things like that but dont put it over god.  Some churches get together during the super bowl and watch it all together.  I tell you what, i should rather and i would rather be at a church service hearing the word of god and praising the lord for what he did for us than watching a ball being tossed.  Now do I think that football is a sin? no, but i still just dont believe that instead of services you watch a game.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: nardo73 on May 15, 2005, 08:36:07 PM
insanesquirle said:

well personal i believe that you can have fun and you can talk about sports and things like that but dont put it over god. Some churches get together during the super bowl and watch it all together. I tell you what, i should rather and i would rather be at a church service hearing the word of god and praising the lord for what he did for us than watching a ball being tossed. Now do I think that football is a sin? no, but i still just dont believe that instead of services you watch a game.



You know. I'm going to say, this is ridiculous, because your twisting the words around. All I'm saying, is to have a balance in life. I know In my heart that I'm totally sold out for christ, and guess what? if he desires that I witness to someone about sports, I'm GONNA break it down like: the 12 runners on the field are like the disciples, and the coach symbalizes Christ :lol: , and the 12 runners need to know every kind of tactics there is (which is the Word) to defend themselves against the opposition (the Enemy), this is just an analogy set to meet a common ground with people, I din't say let's have a drink with them neither did I say football should be more important than a church service, because if it was, our works would be unfruitful, but be open minded so you can use the wisdom God alone gives you to witness to people in diffrent fields.
People in this day and age won't think twice about runnig away from someone who is "Holier than thou art", but if god can use someone who can relate to them, then LET GOD GET HIS GLORY!!!!


                                                                                           [/quote]
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: Robbace on May 16, 2005, 12:11:08 PM
Hello brother Bass players in Christ just letting you all know I love you but can we capitalize the name of the Lord please dont mean to offend anyone :D     He is our father which art in heaven,covers us with his most precious blood for constant protection.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: aaronmatthew on May 19, 2005, 03:56:58 PM
It is so funny to watch people try and give their ethnocentric and dogmatic opinions on what they believe should be Christian music.  The plain fact of the matter is the music is cultural.  Music needs to be judged on content and not style, since style is derived from ones background and cultural. NO WHERE in the BIBLE does it tell us what style music should be done in.  

Music also was ALL ORIGINALLY the Lord's and it was the devil that corrupted it.  Another thing people do not know is that many of those old gospel tunes our grandparents sang in church were converted tavern, bar, folk and dance songs. YUP YOU READ IT CORRECTLY.  In college we began researching the origins of songs like Amazing Grace, How Great Thou Art (from a Swedish Folk Song), Oh How I Love Him (Italian Love Ballad), and so many others.  

Today this pattern it hasn’t changed.  People write music based on their cultural background, the style they are used to, the beats and rhythms.  Back in the days people were not even used to polyphonic rhythms in music and were used to monophonic rhythms, so anything with a groove was considered evil.  

Music has been converted from worldly music for hundreds of years, just like holidays.  Yes, many of the holidays we celebrate like Christmas were not originally Christian, rather were Pagan holidays that were changed to Christian like holidays when people found Christ in order to keep their holidays.

So what does it all mean?  It means music is music, and it is the content that makes it Godly or ungodly.  Just because a Christian writes a song and calls it gospel doesn’t mean it is, it is all about the content.

--aaronmatthew
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: wethepeople on June 02, 2005, 12:20:19 PM
:?: Music must be looked upon as a tool created by God , and as Gosple musicians my soul desire is to create a sound that God can inhabit, for God inhabits, he lives in the praises of his people, Creating a sound he can dwell in that some might be compelled to repent, sing, to draw closer to JESUS     P.G.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: tondee on June 03, 2005, 06:54:42 AM
Quote from: T-Block
uriahsmusic wrote:

Quote
MUSIC IS NOT JUST MUSIC


What do you mean music is not just music?  Music is just music.  The way you feel about a certain beat is purely personal.  I can hear certain music and feel happy, while others can hear that same music and get sleepy.  You can't say that just because you think a certain beat makes you think about sex that others are going to feel that way.  You have to get that statement across by adding words that talk about sex.  I totally disagree with you and anybody else who feels like music is not just music.


T-Block,
Your comment is from your heart, strictly emotional.  It's what you think, what YOU think...  But it's not scriptural.  

Mt 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mt 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

According to the Bible, We're in the world but not of the world.  Satan is the Ruler of this world and everything in it.  He even told Jesus that.  (I'll give you all this if you worship me) Did Jesus debate him?  He's ruling in limited conditions from Jesus.  But Jesus allow him to rule, for now.  Some of you out there is thinking that God is All-Power.  Therefore, he stops Satan.  True, only where God wants to stop him, according to God's Will.  Since music is in the world, Satan CONTROLs that, too.  This is beyond lyrics.  From the day you were born Satan conditioned you to mentally hear Music a certain way (Lyrics is another story).  The only way to avoid this is to grow up in a sterile environment.  Satan controls music and broadcast (everything we see and hear).  So Music isn't this sterile, clean bubble untainted.  We can grab it and clean it.  But we can't just grab it and use it and say it's okay because God created it.  God created Satan, too.  But Satan's the epitome of evil.  Why is all this so?  I don't know.  God says "My ways aren't like your ways, my thoughts aren't like your thoughts... "  But, yet, we continue to reason and rationalize things from OUR thoughts with no regards of the scriptures.  Don't argue from your heart, man.

Tony
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: aaronmatthew on June 06, 2005, 05:36:14 PM
"According to the Bible, We're in the world but not of the world. Satan is the Ruler of this world and everything in it."  

You are contradicting yourself here.  Either Satan is the ruler of all things of this world or he isn’t.  Satan runs around the world creating havoc, yes, but he doesn’t not own this world nor does he own the things of/in it.  Thus he is not the ruler of this world, only trying to behave as if he is.  The true owner and ruler of all things it the Alpha and Omega, Jesus Christ. You also reference the following scriptures (Mt 15:18-19) which deal with things from a person’s mouth and thoughts; these do not in anyway specify the style of music rhythms, beats, choral structure etc.  Your argument is not a valid one.

One thing this does show is that man’s evil is of his own devices, from thoughts, words, feelings…etc.  Thus by your example of scripture in its application towards music would mean that any music, Christian or non-Christian is subject in the manner by which it was authored.

You can author an old hymn like amazing grace or perform a song like amazing grace and have naked people getting down and dirty to the song, this is not pleasing to God.  You can author Christian song that has the right type of ethnically geographic specific lyrics, rhythms, melody and choral harmonies, but it could have hidden innuendos and meanings that are contrary to His will, this is not God’s will either.

Once again, music for the Lord is about intent, meaning, content, NOT STYLE or Ethno Geographic acceptance.

--aaron
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: aaronmatthew on June 06, 2005, 06:14:24 PM
Sorry I should have used some scripture.

1. to say the devil has rule or dominion over the world is incorrect Biblically. Saying this means that we follow the beliefs of old catholsim who thought everything is evil and we must repent for everything, and beat ourselves as punishment for being evil.

Gen 1:26 "...let them (MAN) have dominion over the fish of the sea, over th birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth..."

Jude 1:25 "To God our Savior, Who alone is wise glory and majesty, dominion and power, both NOW and forever...

Eph 1:21 (in reference to Jesus Christ)  "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but in that which is to come:"

--aaronmatthew
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: GIRT on June 06, 2005, 07:43:39 PM
I have noticed a lot of opinions that everyone has posted on this site. A lot of them are good ones and others are way in left field. My question is what is you relationship with God like? God will direct you in what to play and when to play it. Music has been around before the Earth was even formed so to say that music itself is secular is to be misleading someone to think that music is too sexy or violent. As it was put many years ago music is an international language. Music is not the probelm it's our minds in which we translate a certain sound, progression, beat, etc... to be seen as secular. Music is God uses in some ways to put us at peace. Everyone is referring to Hip Hop/R&B and no one has mentioned Country, Folk, Bluegrass, Rock or Heavy Metal as secular music. Why is that? Music can't corrupt your mind, a song can't corrupt your mind. We as humans allow our minds to be corrupted because of our sinful nature. Please do me a favor stop trying to blame the music as to how someone responds to it. The bible says that there is nothing new under the Sun, therefore the way music is being played has been going on for years. Technology has allowed us to digitize the way it sounds but it is stil music. God has dealt with me about this issue and he basiclly told me that he created music not man. Just as with preachers there are alot of us musicians that are playing and have not been called to play music. A true musician looks at music at music and nothing else. Once words are put to that music then it becomes a song and that's when people begin to perceive if it is secular or Gospel. Please stop the hate on the way that music songs. As B3wannabe mentioned its the lyrics that make the difference. If you have a probelm with the way gospel music sounds then you might need to check yourself and seek God and see what he tells you. If God tells you that certain grooves/patterns are wrong than that's between you and him. Remember God created it all so therefore how could music itself be bad?
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: tak on June 07, 2005, 02:54:18 AM
Quote from: GIRT
I have noticed a lot of opinions that everyone has posted on this site. A lot of them are good ones and others are way in left field. My question is what is you relationship with God like? God will direct you in what to play and when to play it. Music has been around before the Earth was even formed so to say that music itself is secular is to be misleading someone to think that music is too sexy or violent. As it was put many years ago music is an international language. Music is not the probelm it's our minds in which we translate a certain sound, progression, beat, etc... to be seen as secular. Music is God uses in some ways to put us at peace. Everyone is referring to Hip Hop/R&B and no one has mentioned Country, Folk, Bluegrass, Rock or Heavy Metal as secular music. Why is that? Music can't corrupt your mind, a song can't corrupt your mind. We as humans allow our minds to be corrupted because of our sinful nature. Please do me a favor stop trying to blame the music as to how someone responds to it. The bible says that there is nothing new under the Sun, therefore the way music is being played has been going on for years. Technology has allowed us to digitize the way it sounds but it is stil music. God has dealt with me about this issue and he basiclly told me that he created music not man. Just as with preachers there are alot of us musicians that are playing and have not been called to play music. A true musician looks at music at music and nothing else. Once words are put to that music then it becomes a song and that's when people begin to perceive if it is secular or Gospel. Please stop the hate on the way that music songs. As B3wannabe mentioned its the lyrics that make the difference. If you have a probelm with the way gospel music sounds then you might need to check yourself and seek God and see what he tells you. If God tells you that certain grooves/patterns are wrong than that's between you and him. Remember God created it all so therefore how could music itself be bad?



God also created men but does that mean homosexuality is ok?  I'm just trying to point that that logic and train of thought is wrong and not applicable to the Bible.

You say, "Music can't corrupt your mind, a song can't corrupt your mind."
Read 1Samuel 16:14-23
Just as music is/was part of the solution music is/was part of the problem also.  Music was satans strong-suit in glory and is one of his strongholds down here.  Music does carry more than a rhythm or chord with it, music is evidently very spiritual if God could use a harp and a hand to ease an evil spirit from Saul.  So then what makes us think that the opposite could not occur.  Nowhere in that scripture does it say David sang or said a word; he played...  Music is very influential.  Gangsters have testified that they will listen to "murder music" for a while before they do a drive by to usher in that feeling i.e. spirit that emboldens them to do their/satanic bloodthirsty pleasure.  That music doesn't exactly have a soft pleasant rhythm to it but is driven with a rhythmic intent.  This is a harsh example but again to prove a point.  How long music has been around does nothing to negate the fact that it can be used influentially. It is not a question of just sex or violence those are just a means to relate to human sin since before us lucifer was thrown out of heaven and will do anything even use music to join us to his misery.

Read 1Samuel 15:21-28
If I put gospel lyrics behind the song "drop it like it's hot" do you really think that is Holy?  Do you think that is pleasing to God? Will it not reminisce old lustful memories and spirits.  In this scripture it is evident that God has no pleasure in us trying to conform something that was meant for evil into a sacrifice for Him.   Another; since faith cometh by hearing... what else can come by hearing?  If music can bring you peace it can also bring you confusion.

You mention what a "true musician" sees music as...  well before you're a "musician"  you should be a Christian first and that should be the 1st view on any and everything.  Is it pleasing to God?  A lot of people are under your influence when you play so it is much heavier than just that.  The Bible says: Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: >>>for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. <<<

All in all we have to answer to God ourselves and 99 1/2 won't do.  I am not trying to condemn or be the "right one" I just don't want any of my brothers or sisters in the dark or stumbling short of pleasing God because of a lack of knowledge; being unaware of satans devices.......  May the omniscient God our Father lead us into His perfect (not permissable) will through Christ Jesus by His Spirit making us whole and meet for His use, fit for the Kingdom, pleasing in His sight.  Amen.

P.S.
Good info:   http://exministries.com/arguments.html
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: fenderjazz on June 07, 2005, 09:50:09 AM
Quote
 Remember God created it all so therefore how could music itself be bad?


God also created Lucifer and look at him. God also created the entire human race and destroyed all of it except for eight souls because it was continually evil. The Bible tells us that God made everything that exists and nothing was made without Him but obviously some things have been corrupted. Music does not exist in a vacuum so perhaps it can be evil too in some cases. Since there's not a specific Thou-shalt-not scripture on this subject, this discussion will probably go on forever.

(no offense intended, just trying to keep a good discussion going)
Title: This is an old thread, but I wanted to chime in...
Post by: VernDog on August 21, 2005, 10:53:33 PM
There were a lot of really positive comments in this thread, but I felt motivated to give my $0.02.

Someone said music is what it is.  And for the most part, I agree.  But I'd further that to say that music eminates or comes from the soul of the musician(s) playing it.

One of the biggest "cross-over" hits a few years back was Stomp.  Kirk robbed Parliament Funkadelic blind (at least I THINK it was P-Funk).... all the way to the top of the charts and to the bank.  How many folks wound up at the alter after hearing it?  Would any of us here question that the sentiment behind the lyrics and the rhythm & tempo were of "spiritual origin"?  Teddy Riley did a cut with the Winans a while back too...."It's Time To Make A Change"... any one wonder if the Winans took off their holy robe or if Teddy "yep yep" Riley had found salvation?  I remember a few years back, I was a part of a musical production and the music leader said she needed something upbeat.... I suggested and started playing Superfreak by Rick James.  She (always raised in the church, unlike me) argued me down that MC Hammer wrote it!!  For those that see the humor, you know that it was funny!

What I'm saying is that sure, every now and then, you'll hear a secular line in church, and if you really know your old school stuff, you'll know when you hear everything from the O'Jays and Gladys Knight & the Pips in todays contemporary gospel. Listen carefully... it's there!    But what you're hearing is not "the devil" or "secular music" per se as much as what THAT MUSICIAN is feeling or using to communicate his or her message.  

The source of the music is the soul of the musician.  That is where, if you're thinking that something is corrupted or a line has been crossed, that is where the line has been crossed.   If the soul is bad or not OF GOD, guess what the music is gonna be.... something to think about.

I'm not saying that a line has been crossed or that some artists that present themselves as messengers really aren't.  I'm saying that the REAL issue is the motivations of the messengers that we're making rich and high on the hog with our monetary support and super star status.  

In addition, where are the hearts,minds and souls of the audience that accepts them?  We're so quick to recognize a club beat and a rap line or hook that we are showing where we've been in our past and boy we sure do miss it.  Thanks Ron Winans for hooking up with TR and giving us something to reminesse about.....  

Hez Walker, Kirk F.,  Yo Yo, The Williams Brothers, TD Jakes, and a lot others know that the masses they are trying to reach have a thread of worldliness in them and one way to attact them to their product and their message (or God's message since that is what they're supposed to be delivering) is to tickle the senses with something they can relate to.  I dont' see anything wrong with it as long as the end goal is another soul saved.  But is that happening?  Or have they found another way to still have those worldly connections within the sanctity of a church surrounding.  Ultimately, these are questions that no one here can answer.  Only the person in the pew or at the B3 or on the drums or in the choir stand can answer.  

But we, individually, in our own endeavors, have to make our own choices.  Because ultimately, only we will stand accountable for our own actions.  Let's not be so quick to judge and cast stones.  Let's do our best to master our craft and deliver what WE want delivered.  Listen to all music, learn it, understand what it takes to play it, and use our best judgement when it's appropriate.  

(that was more like $0.12, but oh well...)
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: tak on August 22, 2005, 02:15:16 AM
The Bible always confirms itself and guides us by example or direct order by the Word.  And never once do I see in scripture where God used something secular or idolatrous to "attract" people.  We must be careful when using our temporal opinions on matters so eternal.  Often we mistake His permissable will with His perfect will.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: VernDog on August 22, 2005, 02:29:45 AM
Quote from: tak
And never once do I see in scripture where God used something secular or idolatrous to "attract" people.  


I see what you're saying tak, but I offer this, While God didn't exactly use anything secular to attract people to the gospel, Jesus wasn't one for keeping His word from the secular minded.  He was known to associate with the outcast, the socially deplorable, those that others had shunned for various reasons. He, in his mortal existence, identified with other mortals that were dealing with the down side of their mortality.  Maybe some artists are identifying with the secular side of their current or past existence by leaning on the secular side of music every now and then.  I say that by using "secular" riffs and such, an artist may be saying, "I've been there too."  And a potential soul for Christ might identify with that.  ya know?
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: tak on August 22, 2005, 02:43:45 AM
True Christ fellowshipped with them but He did not join works with them or conformed His work to theirs.  What He did was avail Himself to them which is entirely different.  In fact when he visited Zacchaeus' house Zacchaeus changed the way he worked and returned fourfold that which he took and gave to the poor. Luke 19:7-10
I wouldn't carry a crack pipe and maybe take a whiff while reading the Bible to a crackhead in order to relate to the crackhead but I will tell him that if God delivered me from it He can do it for you too.  Extreme point but similar philosophy.  Amazingly music can have that kind of "crack-effect" on people; it takes us back....
Ephesians 5:10-11 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: Dtuned on August 22, 2005, 01:01:06 PM
dont even get me started !!

what a thread..

without reading through it all i'll post my brief madness..

there is a fine line between love & hate sometimes right? especially without the love of GOD..

i believe to a point its whats in your spirit, the spirit will guide you to a level where God is pleased.. at the same token, God wants His music to be used as a witnessing tool, to guide the masses to Him..

Tell me then if a car goes down my street and is blairing Heavy Metal, or some hardcore Rap what am i to think?? (these people need Jesus, God Bless their souls, their on drugs, thugs etc).. Stereo typing right??

at the same token lets say, although i didnt hear the lyrics this was soppose to be some 'Christian' Heavy Metal/ Rap.. where does this type of  'Christian' music Glorify Him..

there is also this fine line in the House of God, i would steer far from any church that i didnt feel right about the music in the Holy Ghost..

rob
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: MikeGee on August 22, 2005, 03:25:42 PM
Are you aware that there is; Christian Raggae, Christian Rock, Christian Ska, Christian Heavey Metal? Chirstian dance, techno, blue grass.

I'm not for or against this topic this is just something for you to think about.
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: Dtuned on August 22, 2005, 06:04:52 PM
yes, im aware of all the "Christian" music out there..

my point is that you as a Christian, are suppose to be ye separate from the world..

how can you be 'separate' if you act and or 'appear' to be just like the world..???

thats like have scriptual tattoos on your neck etc, and come to me as a sinner and tell me how awesome God is.. when that person himself 'appears' no differant then the rest..

i will make more time later to express my opinion in greater detail..

later,
rob
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: LisaRawlsWilson on August 23, 2005, 12:12:55 AM
Quote from: Dtuned
my point is that you as a Christian, are suppose to be ye separate from the world..how can you be 'separate' if you act and or 'appear' to be just like the world..???


I just skimmed through this thread, and I totally agree with Dtuned.  I used to make it my business to take secular songs that I thought had a really nice hook or grove and either use them in gospel songs or, for special occasions, just rewrite the words and use the music.  I called myself "reclaiming the music for God."  Then it occurred to me: what if God didn't want it?  

Honestly, I believe that certain music has an evil "spirit" (for lack of a better word, but maybe that is the word) attached to it and no matter what lyrics you put with it the overall effect is going to be negative.  For example, take Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing."  Now, maybe it's just because I associate that bass line with that particular song and I know what that song is about already, but if you heard somebody singing the words to, say, "Amazing Grace" with that bass grove, would you really be thinking about God's grace or would you be thinking, Geez, that sounds just like "Sexual Healing!"?  I mean, am I the only person in the world who just couldn't get into that gospel song that used the hook from Tupac's "I Ain't Mad Atcha"?
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: LisaRawlsWilson on August 23, 2005, 12:18:24 AM
Quote from: Dtuned
my point is that you as a Christian, are suppose to be ye separate from the world..how can you be 'separate' if you act and or 'appear' to be just like the world..???


I just skimmed through this thread, and I totally agree with Dtuned.  I used to make it my business to take secular songs that I thought had a really nice hook or grove and either use them in gospel songs or, for special occasions, just rewrite the words and use the music.  I called myself "reclaiming the music for God."  Then it occurred to me: what if God didn't want it?  

Honestly, I believe that certain music has an evil "spirit" (for lack of a better word, but maybe that is the word) attached to it and no matter what lyrics you put with it the overall effect is going to be negative.  For example, take Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing."  Now, maybe it's just because I associate that bass line with that particular song and I know what that song is about already, but if you heard somebody singing the words to, say, "Amazing Grace" with that bass grove, would you really be thinking about God's grace or would you be thinking, Geez, that sounds just like "Sexual Healing!"?  I mean, am I the only person in the world who just couldn't get into that gospel song that used the hook from Tupac's "I Ain't Mad Atcha"?
Title: Can't believe It!
Post by: Spiritfingers on August 23, 2005, 01:23:42 AM
I can't even believe that they brought this topic back up!  I would rather not even give my opinion.  Oh my bad, I was crucified with Christ so my opinion doesn't matter...  Gal. 2:20  Also read Romans 14!
Title: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
Post by: tak on August 25, 2005, 01:15:30 AM
IMO In this 14th chapter of Romans Paul is obviously referring to customs, days, foods, and such.  These differ from our discussion on music because music (as we have agreed) is something that feeds the spirit and has a direct effect on it; whereas days, customs, & foods don't pour into the spirit with the persuasiveness of music. I must go, may elaborate later
Title: Tak
Post by: Spiritfingers on August 25, 2005, 01:18:18 AM
The point I was trying to make is,...  If it's not bring us together, it tearing us a part.  Like believers need one more thing to disagree on...  No big deal, though...

You all can continue...  I'll watch from the sidelines. 8O