LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Main => Ministry, M.O.M, Praise Teams and Choirs => Topic started by: favoritepsalm1 on November 03, 2005, 02:31:44 PM
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I was discussing this with my head musician the other day. I got no problem with the small groups being prominent, but does anyone besides me miss the choirs? Remember when The Associates, Hez, Ricky Dillard, James Hall, Milton Brunson, Hawkins & Love Alive dominated? Is it because we're in more of a praise and worship mode that choirs don't put out as much? Is it because it's cheaper for small groups to minister? Just curious as to what others think. And do you prefer one to the other?
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Good Question This Should Get a Lot Of responses :wink:
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There is nothing like the sound of those choirs. There are still a few around:
MS Mass Choir (Having You There, Yes)
Full Gospel (The Just Shall Live, Bow Down and Worship)
Just to name a couple. There is NOTHING like hundreds of voices on one accord giving glory to God. It's yoke breaking!
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I was wondering the same thing. Cuz when my choir director comes with a song for a choir, it ain't that many choir songs out, just a lot of little groups. I think the idea of a super choir is kinda dead internationally, but in churchs, the choirs are very much alive. A lot of them don't have the funds to put out CDs.
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Yeah, I miss those days too. There are number of reasons. like someone mention earlier the praise and worship small group mode did put a a hurting on the mass choir production stuff. Also I remember reading a artcle about choir members were upset at how much money the director and pastor was getting of their ablums and they werent being paid as well so the choir disbanded. Its also expensive imagine a mass choir on tour, Hotel and traveling expenses would be through the roof but thank God for the Newbirths, and Pottershouse and chicago mass that still putting out those cds.
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Yeah...I miss those days also. i actually prefer the chior songs
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We have commercialized Gospel music. Most of the voices can be duplicated in the studio to get the choir sound and you don't have to pay that money.
You can get the not so good singers to sound good with technology now so you can have one person sing almost all the keys and just duplicated them over and over.
And because people are charging a lot of money for people to come sing.
Oh and now Gospel is getting into the you have to be pretty to get a deal these days. Talent or Annointing means nothing anymore.
I miss Choirs very much bring back Keith Pringle, and Love alive.
Peace
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My church used to have a large choir when I started going seven years ago, but after we moved to our new location over a year ago, that choir was broken up and ever since then we only had a Praise and Worship team. I never really got a clear answer why the choir was broken up - I have heard reasons from there was a lot of strife going on and lack of respect of the position of the minister of music to it was really the church vision to have a choir.
I do admit I miss our church choir :( . There is a lot of power and energy when you have that large number of voices that are in agreement to give God all His praise and due. Well, it is great to see the large choirs of The Potter's House, New Birth, Lakewood Church, WorldChangers (Dr. Creflo Dollar's church) etc.
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I also miss the days of the choir it is becoming more and more difficult to find songs to teach my church choir. Also, more people are making albums in the studio to save time and money. Choirs can't fit in most studios. I miss live recordings and choirs.
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I think the reason why the "choir" scene has died or is dying is because of the huge mess that the community choir caused. It left a bad taste in the mouths of most people both leaders and laymembers alike. The competition, scandals and such has destroyed it. Now the focus is on church choirs with a community feel. But many of these choirs, as said in an earlier post, can't afford to put out the music. So, now we are stuck with music from the P&W groups and smaller ensembles.
I for one truly miss choir music.
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This is a sign, that all of us who liked that music are getting old.
I doubt that this type of music will be back, any time soon, because of the reasons stated. People have to be paid fairly, and that would mean those people whose names are on the cds would get less. That's not going to happen. This topic can bleed into "why should musicians get paid". It's all the same thing. You can't expect everyone, that is performing a service, in the church, to do things out of the kindness of their hearts....but I don't want to start a tangent, so I'll say that I too miss those days.
We can bring them back, but it would mean buying more old cds, instead of new cds. Money is partly what's driving this engine. God's word doesn't need Kirk Franklin behind it to reach the masses. It can be done with Mahalia Jackson too.
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I personally like choirs more than I do groups except on certain songs, but praise and worship has really captured the hearts of God's people these days, because people are really realizing the power in praising and worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth.
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I always wondered why people make praise groups sound different than a choir. They're really no different. They're just smaller. I mean, I like choirs better because they're bigger, and the music is a little different, but a praise group isn't anything special to write home about. People can "worship God in spirit and truth" with a choir too. I don't understand that saying.
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Well it is a difference with worshipping in spirit and in truth with a choir because usually choirs are open to whoever but a praise team is different. Most praise team members are people that are chosen, not only because of their vocal ability but for their passion for worshipping God. It takes someone serious about praise and worship to really bring in the atmosphere of worship into the house. It is also easier to get on one accord with a praise team because a true praise team all have like spirits and stay connected to each other but most importantly to God. Most Praise team Members live worship but most choir alot of choir members are in choir to keep from being a lay member. Im not saying this is the case for all praise teams but for most or should be the standard for a praise team.
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That's like saying there's a difference between a saved choir and a saved praise and worship team.
LOL
If you're "worshipping in spirit and truth", it shouldn't matter how many people you have. There isn't a gray area.
I still like big choirs better. To me, the more voices you have, the better it is...if they're all serious.
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its a totally different realm of seriousness. like yourself i love choirs too. i work with my choir just as hard as i work with the praise team, if not harder but the maturity level is different and thats what i was meaning by the response to what you said earlier. There is a difference between pw teams and a mass choir. I also agree that a choir can bring in the spirt as well but i am surrounded by people searching for something deeper than a 20 min shout or worship break. Only true pw members can usher in something life changing. It is possible that a choir could all be full of the holy ghost and have characteristics of a tru pw team but its not so likely. thats all i was tryin to say.
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Initially, I liked the P&W better. My thought:
1. I'm from the BAND culure.
2. I like space in my music.
3. I like to hear every single person and everything.
4. You can't get clarity with a large group of people.
Since I've been involved with the music ministry my thoughts have changed radically. Once I got used to all those voices hitting me at once (up close) I can really appreciate it. On Sunday mornings, i get excited about playing P&W songs. 'Cause the quicker we start them, the quicker they will be out of the way. Then out comes the REAL meal, the steak and potatoes. Nothing compares to that. It's time to get these kids used to hearing a choir. They don't like it because they're unfamiliar to it, like live music. A person rapping or singing to a loop isn't live music. And these kids grew up on that. They don't know any better...until they mess around and get into the choir.
Tony
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Even though I'm only 14, I grew up on choir music. I'm from North Carolina which has lots of choirs in the different cities. I think praise and worship is cool and all but I gotta stick with my choir music. Hezekiah Walker, Ricky Dillard, James Hall, Donald Lawrence, Kirk Franklin and the Family, John P. Kee. I love em all.
Hollla
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:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
OH THE DAYS!!!
I wish that the choir thing would come back,(I'm trying to bring it back here in Northern Cali.)
It's something about a choir that a P&W team will NEVER have. NEVER
Keith Pringle was AWESOME back in the day, (where are you man?) The Pentecostal Community Choir was BAD. It seems like gospel is going secular, and that is why the choir is going bye bye, but the church will always have a choir...COGIC people remember the UNAC recordings form the 70's and 80's, pure classic, can't get that sound anywhere else...
Here's my "back in the day" list, remember these folks?
The Majestics
Southwest Michigan State (Dr. Mattie Moss Clark)
Institutional COGICI (Joyce Taylor, WHEW MY GAUD)
The Savettes
St.James (Charles Nicks)
The Los Angeles Community Choir
the list goes on and on...
Give me a choir anyday! :D
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The 70's and 80's were the bomb when it came to the choirs here in NYC! Of coursre we had the Institutional Radio Choir(170 Adelphi St), the greatest choir out of NYC! We also had
Bibleway Temple Radio Choir (Bishop Huie Rogers)
Bishop Billy Robinson and the Garden Of Prayer Cathederal
Tri Boro Mass Choir (Bishop Albert Jamison)
Proffessor Jeffery White and the Soul Stirring Crusade Choir (where Hez got his start)!
The Benny Cummings Singers
The JC White singers
The John Hason Singers
The Bronx Mass Choir( Bishop Eric McDaniel)
Rev Timothy Wright and the Concert Choir
New York Restoration Choir (Donie Mclurkin)
Bishop Nat Townsley and Singers
Man those where some good old days back then! No dis to Hez or James Hall but back then these guys where holding it down here in NYC. A lot of them didn't get the props they desereved but they open the doors for so many artist after them!
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I love choir music down in my heart. Nothing better than Ricky dillard or James hall to me. I like the praise and worship era we are moving to but I still gotta have my choir.
I was scared when youthful praise had the praise n worship CD come put but its actually pretty good. But its all music glorifying God so its all good to me!!!
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I love Bishop Billy Robinson, Oh I still have, "I'm leaving you in the hands of the Lord"... what are they doing now, I know he must be much older, so what is triboro doing. Yeah NY had it alright.
"Let's Go Back To The Top Of The Mountain"
The Hitmakers, and Joyce Taylor :D
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Well Bishop Billy Robinson died I believe in 2003 or 2004.
John Hason who palyed for Institutional died in the late 1980'sor erly 1990's. If you ever saw the original Blues Brothers movie, John Hason is the organist in the Church scene with James Brown!
Benny Cummings ( Donnie Mcklurkin used to sing with his group) died in the early 1990's.
I'll tell you what that back in the day if you ever came to NYC and thought you could sing you had to go to 170 Adelphi Street in Brooklyn The Institutional Church of God in Christ Bishop Carl E Williams Sr. This church had a radio broadcast at 10:30 pm on Sunday nights. If Monday was a holiday, then you had what they would call a back home hour! After the broadcast the Radio choir would have a little concert, along with other groups and singers! Just about every famous gospel singer when in NY on a sunday made it to the broadcast to be seen and to sing! I can't even begin to name the musicans that played for the church in my day! From JC and Alfred White, Stanley Brown, David Frazier, Melvin Crispell, James Hall, Bishop Carl E Willams Jr, Gerald Heyward, Eddie White, Jeffery White, Xavier Napper, and of course the Father of the Brooklyn sound Professor Butch Heyward(my organ teacher). By the way the founding pastor Bishop Carl E Wilams Sr. was also a great piano player in his own right! I once had a lesson with Butch and Bishop was in the church playing the piano, man he was no joke! :!:
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Hi,
This is the founder and president of World Dynamic Radio responding to all of your comments.
World Dynamic Radio is in preparation to give gospel choirs and real gospel music more exposure. We are not playing any Kirk Franklin sort of music. We may be playing a bit of secular, but when it comes to gospel we have decided to keep it just "Sacred" Gospel.
I would have to disagree with one of you who said we who love gospel chorale are just getting old. That's not true, because gospel chorale music is the genre that never gets old. It is classic. The younger generations just have to be willing to be taught, because many just want the money and the easy way out, as well as some older people. They have to learn that if they are uniquely creative, the money will come. There just has to be more examples, along with more talented African Americans of all generations to hold on to what God has naturally giving us, rather than just selling out just to be liked.
To comment on the size of studios, I also disagree. Back in the days of Super Choirs, many became popular just by recording at churches what some groups are still doing today.
Also many artists must be more willing to write their music, rather than using some one elses and take their time and train their voices. Just because we have lost Rev. James Moore, Frank Williams, the late Rev. James Cleveland and many others does not mean gospel choirs are dead. I am always looking for those particular sort of artists. Spread the word.
http://www.worlddynamicradio.com
I like this specific subject. God Bless all of you.[/b][/url] :D
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I also miss the era of the choirs!! If you think about it, groups have been getting progressively smaller over the years. There was a time when the MASS choirs ruled (like The Mississippi Mass Choir, Florida Mass, Georgia Mass, New Jersey Mass, COGIC Int'l Mass Choir, all the COGIC Jurisdictional Choirs, convention choirs, church choirs, etc.) Then during the 80s it kinda shifted to the slightly smaller community choirs like Rev. Milton brunson & the Thompson Community Singers, Southeast Inspirational Choir (they were BADD!!), Timothy Wright & the Concert Choir, the New Life Community Choir, etc.
This paved the way for the young super community choirs of the 90s like Hezzie, James Hall, Ricky Dillard, Donald Lawrence & Tri City, Olanda and the Associates, B. Chase Williams, etc. Now we hyave P & W groups and ensembles.
I like P & W music, but NOTHING takes the place of a good choir! At least the choir market is not completely dead. We still have Hez, James, Donald (for now), Ricky, MS Mass, Miami Mass, etc. I just hope people realize the value of a choir. Our best singers (both gospel and secular) came through the choirs!! The Clark Sisters, Vanessa Bell Armstrong, James Moore, The Pace Sisters, The Winans, The Hawkins and many others are all products of Dr. Mattie Moss Clark and UNAC!!
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Hello Loopy,
This is Carla P. Jewel. It would be a good idea for you to form a mass choir of your own and encourage others who have the same love for mass choirs. That is the only way to stop longing for how things used to be.
Let me know when you decide to bring it into existence.
Looking forward to your response.
Carla P. Jewel of Worlddynamicradio.com
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I have vowed that the Lord's choir he gave me to train will bring the sound back...
The Acts Community Choir will set the tone...
I'm with ya Loopy, UNAC was "IT" back in the day!!!
Join me with your choir and lets bring it back.
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Hi Loopy,
I am founder and president of worlddynamicradio.com.
I am looking for those who need exposures for their own choirs. I am not forming or have a choir. I am looking to promote them. So, please let me know when you have formed your choir and other conductors that you may know who wish to set the trend back into African American gospel, the way it should be.
Do you understand what I am trying to explain?
Carla P. Jewel of worlddynamicradio.com :D
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Hello Everyone this is an interesting subject. To be fair to all...we are all God's servants. There is nothing wrong with Kirk Franklin or James Cleveland pertaining to what God has given them. They have a specific assignments. So to me we create a division between the "Choir" and the "Praise Team". Saying that the young people have to learn what is sacred. "Sacred to Who????" If you like choirs that's fine but please don't discourage people when it comes to praise teams. We have enough division in the church already. I find that if you can find a biblical reference for "Choirs are better that Praise Team" please share it so we all can learn something. This seems more like personal opinion. Remember some people are still stuck on "Disco in the 70's". That was then and God loves it all of his music. Choir, rappers, contemporary.... u name it. As long as it give him the glory I don't think he would mind. Encourage everyone to do what they do and don't say I don't play Kirk Franklin music that sends off a negative vibe that there is something wrong with what God has given him. Kirk and Mahalia have the same holy spirit that inspires them. God Bless Zman
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This is my second semester in my College's Gospel Choir (well UGA's African American Choral Ensemble) On our concerts we normally do 2-3 spirituals for our concerts, then the rest of our songs are Gospel Selections. Last Semester (and previous semesters that I have heard them) they have sung songs from the "super choir" era. However, this semester it sounds as if every gospel song we are doing now is from the "praise and worship" era as my pastor calls it. I mean I have nothing against these types of songs. I love them. However, I know that I must not forget those songs that BROUGHT ME OVER. I agree with lilcarolina, for me it wasn't the spirituals, it was songs by artists such as Mississippi Mass Choir, Colorado Mass Choir, Chicago Mass Choir, LA Mass Choir, Georgia Mass Choir, National GMWA, Hezekiah Walker, Ricky Dillard, James Hall, Donald Lawrence, Kirk Franklin and the Family, John P. Kee, James Bignon, James Cleveland, and many others.
Like I stated I see nothing wrong with Praise and Worship because it essential. This is where I can stand with Zman and state that he is correct there should be a division between the "Choir" and the "Praise Team". Many churches are loosing the division and things are beginning to merge, and pretty soon every Gospel Pioneer's hard work will be lost in history. Thats one of the things that I am not comfortable with at the church I attend in Athens,GA. They are geared more towards Praise and Worship even in the Choir the songs are more Praise and Worship.
I come from an era of "Super Choirs" and generally when I was the Director of Music at a chuch backhome in Columbus,GA. The choir focused on songs from the super choir, and I also introduced a few Praise and Worship pieces for them to be familiarized with. I didnt necessarily seperate praise and worship I bridged the gap in our church.
I am not saying that Choirs are more effective in Ministry than praise teams. Because I feel that both are effective in the Praise and Worship experience. The verse that I shared with my choir at every rehearsal was John 4:22-24 Ye, Worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when true worshippers shall worship the Fatehr in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. I feel that this is the primary role for the Praise Team and Choirs within our Music Ministries.
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Hello Z-man,
No one is on this site to argue. I believe that is why we have this forum, because we all have likes and dislikes. If we, as God's people desire to bring more Sacredness into gospel, do not fight it. As you said we are all here for different assignements.
Many like Mr. Franklin, but-there are those who yet and still respect the late Rev. James Cleveland and it is my assignment to open up those doors.
God bless you,
Carla P. Jewel
Hello Everyone this is an interesting subject. To be fair to all...we are all God's servants. There is nothing wrong with Kirk Franklin or James Cleveland pertaining to what God has given them. They have a specific assignments. So to me we create a division between the "Choir" and the "Praise Team". Saying that the young people have to learn what is sacred. "Sacred to Who????" If you like choirs that's fine but please don't discourage people when it comes to praise teams. We have enough division in the church already. I find that if you can find a biblical reference for "Choirs are better that Praise Team" please share it so we all can learn something. This seems more like personal opinion. Remember some people are still stuck on "Disco in the 70's". That was then and God loves it all of his music. Choir, rappers, contemporary.... u name it. As long as it give him the glory I don't think he would mind. Encourage everyone to do what they do and don't say I don't play Kirk Franklin music that sends off a negative vibe that there is something wrong with what God has given him. Kirk and Mahalia have the same holy spirit that inspires them. God Bless Zman
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Hi Carla,
I agree arguing is not Godly. I'm not sure you understand my message. My goal is not to fight sacredness. Sacredness means consecrated, dedicated, divine, holy, sanctified...etc. You seem to be saying that only choir music is sacred and I notice that you said "we, as God's people. Am I not God's child. Are the people that pour their hearts and talents into God unsacred because its doesn't conform to choirs? I love choirs. Been choir director/musician for over 20 years many organizations including the US Air Force. My concern is that you have a lot of young people growing up in a new era of P&W. If you assignment is to open doors, that's excellent. Do it with all passion. But don't make someone who is a rapper, contemporary singer or even a prostitute feel that they are sacred enough to get in the presense of a holy God. Who told you I don't have respect for James Cleveland. That didn't come from me.Where did that come from? That man is awesome!! All the pioneers of Gospel are great people. No question. Allow people to worship freely and excel in the assignment God's has given them. A final note. God is the one who determines what is sacred to him. I don't qualify myself to even image what God ordains as consecrated. The heart of a pure worshipper is sacred that's what God looks at.
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Very Good.
God Bless,
Carla P. Jewel of WorldDynamicRadio.com
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I may be late for this topic, but I am a director, writer, and arranger of choir music. I wanna' bring back the mass choir sound to gospel as a mainstay, not just a cameo appearance. i love the choir music, it has that man to man appeal to it. I think that we kinda' got away from it just because of the times. We have seen the industry move on and we just kinda' followed suit, but there are those of us who wants it real bad. I personally love the p&w music as well, but there is nothing like that big ole' choir sound filling up the room, you know with the director acting a fool and holding that one note for thirty minutes ;D
Well what I plan to do for all those who are interested is this:
I am in prayer and preparation to start a music ministry here in Houston, presenting a yearly conference that teaches, motivates, celebrates, and displays the character of God through music of all forms. Culminating with a "live" recording that would display the conference mass choir. I am seeking teachers, writers, musicians, singers, prayer warriors, and financial supporters who would like to join me in this endeavor. This conference will be held annually here in Houston, and we would like to expand all over and do follow-up workshops whenever and wherever they are needed. For those of you who are interested you can contact me by sending an e-mail to me at mteekemp@yahoo.com or respond with a personal message on this site. I would really like to here from you soon so that we can organize the first conference and set it in motion. Again I say I am really interested in your input and am already grateful for your involvement on this endeavor and look forward to hearing from you real soon...mad love until we meet again...Mtee