LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Main => Ministry, M.O.M, Praise Teams and Choirs => Topic started by: ferrente on September 14, 2006, 10:18:54 AM
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This is just a food for though.
Do you think the Pastor should Doc a Musicians Salary if he/she doesn't show up to play for an evening program, morning service, Sunday school, etc.?
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Yes in deed, if the musician(s) are late, or don't show (without a VALID reason, and not call at the last minute). In 99.9% of the cases they are getting paid to render the gifts & talents through musicianship. If you don't go to work you don't get paid, if you are late you get doc'd so why not at da church house. I do know that some churches give there musicians a few paid sick or vacation days though.
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I think a Pastor or church can dock a musician's pay, however, I feel like the guidelines should be established in advance, so the musician knows what to expect.
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I think a Pastor or church can dock a musician's pay, however, I feel like the guidelines should be established in advance, so the musician knows what to expect.
100% agree we as musicians are not exempt from being responsible and so is the church head
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I look at it like a real Job if you not there you don't get page. It should be established at the beginning as previously stated.
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Yes, they should. :)
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As a pastor I have been in this situation before. The musician showed up an 1/2 hour before service ended and I didn't allow him to play. He still wanted to be paid. Sometimes things happen, but I'm still excpected to show up on time and carry out my duties. No one would like or except if I overslept.
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I agree with everybody in here about Docking pay.
There are no superstars in church. Sometimes musicians get the big head and think that they can do what they wanna do, come in when they wanna, and so on. Pastors need to keep the musicians egos in check!
GET IT?! CHECK?! MY PUNS AREN'T THAT GOOD...
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Yes in deed, if the musician(s) are late, or don't show (without a VALID reason, and not call at the last minute). In 99.9% of the cases they are getting paid to render the gifts & talents through musicianship. If you don't go to work you don't get paid, if you are late you get doc'd so why not at da church house. I do know that some churches give there musicians a few paid sick or vacation days though.
I agree they should get doc
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The church that I attent does not pay for musicians. I have only attended one church where the piano player got paid but most of the time he donated the money back to the church so we could purchase better gear.
I do have some friends that get pay to play. In this case he gets pay at a church other than his local church. I see this as a job. Musicians that get pay to play should be treaded as employees.
Now I do think that the church should be more concern about why the person did not show or was late and not with "how much can we doc". As christians we need to show the love. Really care about the situations that are causing someone to be late.
BUT, if there is a pattern of lateness for no other reason than "sorry I was playing ball and lost track of time" then I say YES doc the pay and use the money to take the rest of the band out to dinner. LOL
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Most definitely! If a musician is being paid for his/her services and the services are not fully given, why pay fully?
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Most definitely! If a musician is being paid for his/her services and the services are not fully given, why pay fully?
AMEN........
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.....Welcome to the LGM family "Earll Wayne".......be blessed.
PianoWiz...
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Welcome to LGM Earll Wayne
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Yes,,, but under certain cercomstances
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You mean, dock, right? :-\
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I think Pastors should doc musicians if they're late but he should hold his musician to the same standard he has at the church...
You would be surprised at how many late to their own church EVERY SUNDAY Pastors I've met and had to work with...
If he's late all the time to church, if he shows up to church M-F whenever he feels like rolling out of the bed then I don't think he can put his musician on blast.
I do agree that arrangements should be made in advance and WRITTEN OUT saying that if you show up 5-30 minutes late, you will be docked X amount from your check. If you are 30 minutes to an hour late it will be XXX amount and if it's over an hour don't even bother coming (unless your wife, momma, kid etc... is just now getting out of the hospital etc...)
MrSparrow
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I think so, but it should depends on the issue
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These are all great responses!
I think everyone is on the same page!
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Yep, they should.
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I think so, but it should depends on the issue
Ok, Good point!
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I think so, but it should depends on the issue
i with u on that one
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I believe in covenant relationships. When it comes to a paid musician/m.o.m, he or she should recieve a salary that is not contract based, but service based. In other words, in the course of negotiations, they should not be paid by the Sunday or event, but by their commitment. In that, a church should allow one conference, one week for sick leave or personal days, and then vacation time. My church allows me five Sundays to be out ministering elsewhere without affecting my pay. Anything over that does affect pay. Now even when I'm gone, I'm still fully responsible for the services being covered with worship leaders, musicians, and special music. Many problems that churches have with music people goes back to character problems which are fed because pastors are competing with each other and therefore look at talent over character and ultimately hurt the integrity of the whole ministry.
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I believe in covenant relationships. When it comes to a paid musician/m.o.m, he or she should recieve a salary that is not contract based, but service based. In other words, in the course of negotiations, they should not be paid by the Sunday or event, but by their commitment. In that, a church should allow one conference, one week for sick leave or personal days, and then vacation time. My church allows me five Sundays to be out ministering elsewhere without affecting my pay. Anything over that does affect pay. Now even when I'm gone, I'm still fully responsible for the services being covered with worship leaders, musicians, and special music. Many problems that churches have with music people goes back to character problems which are fed because pastors are competing with each other and therefore look at talent over character and ultimately hurt the integrity of the whole ministry.
Very true ...but yes I feel that they should be docked if they are "blatently" coming in late...but things do happen sometimes like flat tires, car goes out etc...But as me being a MOM...I think we should be at church when it opens..OR (be there to open the church if needs be)...so that we can get stuff together and make sure everything is running smoothly for the service
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It depends on the situation because when churches hire me they say for example 100 dollars a (sunday morning) so thats sunday morning service but no one talks about afternoon services or all that extra stuff but after im hired they expect the 100 dollars to cover rehearsals, out of town trips, funerals, weddings, afternoon progams and stuff like that but that doesn't mean a musician can come in late but if no rules are established before hand then there pay shouldn't be docked.
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Two weeks ago, I left a church that I had ministered with for over 6 years. I don't charge them for rehearsals and they didn't pay for them. About a year and 1 1/2 years the Pastor and the Board of Directors issued a "statement" that musicians would be docked 40% of their pay if they missed rehearsal. I sent a letter back to them stating that I didn't charge them for rehearsals and that if they wanted to change our agreement, the changes need to bee agreed to by all and should be in writing.
Since then, there have been many "misunderstandings" about finances concerning the band. When I suggested that we needed written contracts (covenants) I was told "this is a ministry not a business".
About two weeks ago, I called the M.O.M. and asked if we were going to have rehearsal that week. He told me that we weren't and asked me to tell the other band members. I followed his directions.
That Thursday, the Pastor and a few choir members showed up for rehearsal. No musicians showed. Pastor called the M.O.M. to complain. the M.O.M. explained the mistake, seemingly everything was o.k.
That Sunday, after a wonderful service, I went to get my check. It was short 40%. The directors and the Pastor and I got into it unfortunately. They refused to remedy the situation even though they knew that we didn't show because we were told not to show up. That was my last Sunday there.
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When I suggested that we needed written contracts (covenants) I was told "this is a ministry not a business".
This is the only way to avoid alot of problems, by writing things downs.
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This is the only way to avoid alot of problems, by writing things downs.
I agree wit dat
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I agree wit dat
Aaaaaamen!!!! ::) ::) ::)
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This is the only way to avoid alot of problems, by writing things downs.
I agree wit dat
+1
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If it's a job (i.e., you're being paid), then a pastor can do anything a boss can do - including fire a musician - because (s)he is the boss. In matters like this, the spiritual "hats" are not being worn.
This question highlights one of the problems that comes out of dealing with a schizophrenic organization like the capitalist church, i.e., "Is this a job, or God's house?" Well, it's both. But whenever there's a conflict of interest between the two (and there often is), there's mess. I work for the church currently because I have to, and as soon as that's no longer the case, I won't. Better volunteer than professional in my opinion.
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If the circumstances permit yes, now sometimes we have things that come up as we do on our everyday jobs and these should be the only times a musician can't be available without prior notice
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To me IT Depends..
And i say that because i play for 2 different churches. 1 church may hold longer and I may often have to leave the one to go to the other and when i get to the other church they are still in sunday school >:(
so here i am breaking my neck trying to get to the other service on time and have to wait till sunday school lets out >:(
but i said all of that to say this I do think that the "Church" does have the right to withhold pay for real lateness, but not for being 5 or 10 min.
and i did say "Church" because i also think that the Pastor shouldn't dictate who or what a person gets paid. Remember the Pastor is an employee of the church as well!!!
Just my thoughts
z
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To me IT Depends..
And i say that because i play for 2 different churches. 1 church may hold longer and I may often have to leave the one to go to the other and when i get to the other church they are still in sunday school >:(
so here i am breaking my neck trying to get to the other service on time and have to wait till sunday school lets out >:(
but i said all of that to say this I do think that the "Church" does have the right to withhold pay for real lateness, but not for being 5 or 10 min.
and i did say "Church" because i also think that the Pastor shouldn't dictate who or what a person gets paid. Remember the Pastor is an employee of the church as well!!!
Just my thoughts
z
He is an employee who is the boss---just like your boss is an employee of your company but he has the authority to hire and fire you.
I agree, with Nessa---guidelines should first be established. So let it be written, so let it be done! ;) I docked a musician who habitually showed up late. That was all the motivation he needed to get his act together.
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He is an employee who is the boss---just like your boss is an employee of your company but he has the authority to hire and fire you.
Thats not the case in every Church. In my church The Pastor is an employee and reports to the church council. If he wants the organist fired, he will have to go through them. Last year when we hired our new organist/assistant pastor, it was decided by the church council that the congregation vote on wether or not he would serve with us.
To me IT Depends..
And i say that because i play for 2 different churches. 1 church may hold longer and I may often have to leave the one to go to the other and when i get to the other church they are still in sunday school >:(
so here i am breaking my neck trying to get to the other service on time and have to wait till sunday school lets out >:(
but i said all of that to say this I do think that the "Church" does have the right to withhold pay for real lateness, but not for being 5 or 10 min.
What excuse do you have for being 10 minutes late? Musicians should be at the church AT LEAST 10 minutes b4 service starts. I like to get there at least 15-20 minutes early, so I can catch my breath, go over any last minute changes and pray.
I'm Sorry I have no tolerance for late musicians and singers. All of the members of my worship group have been late for the last 3 engagements and it just looks bad and it affects thier singing. One girl didnt even get to sing, cuz she walked in while our group was already singing. And these are Grown women. You would think they would know better.
Can or Should the Pastor (DOC) a Musicians Salary?
If the circumstances call for docking the musicians pay then yes the pastor or the board can and should doc thier pay.
All of that should be discussed in the employment contract.
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Sorry I posted prematuley.
I have had my check docked at my home church a few years ago. The MOM was my teacher, he was sick and was going to be out that sunday. So he was going over the songs with me, and he didnt like the chords I was playing and said I didnt listen to him. So the next week when I got my check, it was only half as much. But I still cashed the check. A while later one of council members told me that the MOM told them to cut my pay in half because I was 'disobedeint' (imagine that ;D). I know he did that not cuz I was disobedient, but because he was jealous. If that was now, I would not have stood for that. It would be all or nothing. But that lesson was worth more the money, I learned at a young age that everybody is not gonna like you or your gift/talent and that there are some shiesty individuals in the church.
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Thats not the case in every Church. In my church The Pastor is an employee and reports to the church council. If he wants the organist fired, he will have to go through them. Last year when we hired our new organist/assistant pastor, it was decided by the church council that the congregation vote on wether or not he would serve with us.
What excuse do you have for being 10 minutes late? Musicians should be at the church AT LEAST 10 minutes b4 service starts. I like to get there at least 15-20 minutes early, so I can catch my breath, go over any last minute changes and pray.
I'm Sorry I have no tolerance for late musicians and singers. All of the members of my worship group have been late for the last 3 engagements and it just looks bad and it affects thier singing. One girl didnt even get to sing, cuz she walked in while our group was already singing. And these are Grown women. You would think they would know better.
If the circumstances call for docking the musicians pay then yes the pastor or the board can and should doc thier pay.
All of that should be discussed in the employment contract.
I gotta agree.
I can't stand lateness, but I also can't stand churches that don't communicate their expectations, and the consequences for failing to meet those expectations, clearly.
If you want to dock an employee for lateness or unpreparedness or absenteeism, you have to have previously communicated that with said employee. As an administrator, I have been faced with this decision countless times, and I refuse to back down from my principles. Last April was the first service for one of my client churches. We had worked to build this church for 8 months, I was stressed beyond belief, and had not even gone to bed the night before. Not at all. We were expecting about 200 ppl to the morning service, and it was scheduled to begin at 11:00a with Intercessory Prayer at 10:45a. The musicians were asked to be IN POSITION at 10:45 (that means, on your instrument).
The drummer showed up at about 12:30. Of course, I was beyond pissed because I learned early on that anything that goes well, reflects on the pastor; and anything that goes poorly reflects on the administrator. This chick was making me look bad, and I was seeing red!!! The pastor wanted to dock her since her lateness had a profoundly negative effect on the service, but I couldn't because she hadn't signed and returned her contract yet.
It sucked, but it was a lesson learned.
You cannot rightfully dock a person without previously communicating that to them.
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He is an employee who is the boss---just like your boss is an employee of your company but he has the authority to hire and fire you.
I agree, with Nessa---guidelines should first be established. So let it be written, so let it be done! ;) I docked a musician who habitually showed up late. That was all the motivation he needed to get his act together.
well like in my church and other that i have played for in the past, there has always been a elder board/deacon board to handle the money matters of the church. but in some places that has changed!!!
:o
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why should we ever be in a posistion to get docked?
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I HAVE PLAYED FOR SEVERAL CHOIRS AND MOST OF THE CHURCHES- THE PASTOR DID NOT HIRE ME AND HE DID NOT GOVERN THE PAY. IF THE CHOIRS HAD A PROBLEM-THEY USUALLY HAD AN ADVISOR TO THE CHOIR-WHICH WAS USUALLY A MEMBER OF THE DEACONS MINISTRY OR THE TRUSTEE MINISTRY AND THEN IF THE PROBLEM WAS NOT SOLVED THERE-THEN IT WENT TO THE PASTOR. CERTAINLY,- I AGREE THAT MUSICIANS SHOULD BE DOCKED-BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT THE PASTOR SHOULD HAVE TO BE BOTHERED WITH SUCH THINGS....... SO YES- WHOEVER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOCKING SHOULD DOCK!!!!!!
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Many churches are establishing contracts with musicians and ministers of music. This may sound unnecessary in the church, but there is NOTHING that causes more contention than a misunderstanding over money....whether in the church or secular. We might as well face 2008 reality. I played for a church about 20 years ago that docked pay. I thought it was ridiculous. It was as if they thought of reasons to dock. Example: one Sunday night service I showed up sick as a dog. The pastor knew this. I played through the whole service. When he was preaching, I left. (He was not a 'hooping' preacher so he needed no organ during his sermon). The only thing I would have missed is the closing song (congregational). I was docked HALF my weekly pay.
We often hear about people playing for money as a bad thing. But consider this: the last church I played for as a non-member, I was there for 5 years...EVERY Sunday (except one about 4 years ago when I was on vacation). There was no contract...no understanding or consideration about 'out of the ordinary' things. When Choir day was coming up I worked extra hard...sometimes committing to extra weekly rehearsals. Often they had to sing elsewhere on Sundays and during the week. No extra pay. However, the Sunday I was on vacation, I did not receive pay. I am negotiating with a church right now coming on board as a MOM. No need in pretending to not want certain things and then be bitter about it later when you don't get it. In addition to the office they're offering and the salary, part of MY request is a paid vacation. After a year, I should be able to miss a Sunday and not be docked when I'm faithfully there at all times (my opinion).
Inasmuch as we hear about musicians "just being out there for the money" (and some ARE), we also have to address the issue of churches that take advantage of musicians. If you don't have 'bred' musicians within your OWN congregation, you can't get touchy about having to PAY a musician to minister in your services...and if you never compensate for the 'extras' but are quick to dock for being late or services missed (especially when notified in advance) the church will be once again LOOKING for a musician.
On my SECULAR job, I am a salaried manager. Just this week I was late one day because of going to the doctor to have blood work done as part of my annual physical. However, we also had an early morning meeting this week and a training session that included a "working lunch" (no lunch break that day). My check won't be docked for any time missed...it all balanced out.
I've interviewed with a few churches lately and two of them mentioned contracts. I think that's the future....it's more of a covenant than a contract. We're not going to sue each other, but when you put things in writing you understand YOUR obligations and they understand THEIRS.
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I believe in covenant relationships. When it comes to a paid musician/m.o.m, he or she should recieve a salary that is not contract based, but service based. In other words, in the course of negotiations, they should not be paid by the Sunday or event, but by their commitment. In that, a church should allow one conference, one week for sick leave or personal days, and then vacation time. My church allows me five Sundays to be out ministering elsewhere without affecting my pay. Anything over that does affect pay. Now even when I'm gone, I'm still fully responsible for the services being covered with worship leaders, musicians, and special music. Many problems that churches have with music people goes back to character problems which are fed because pastors are competing with each other and therefore look at talent over character and ultimately hurt the integrity of the whole ministry.
AMEN! AMEN! I didn't read this until AFTER I posted my response. Very well spoken!
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He is an employee who is the boss---just like your boss is an employee of your company but he has the authority to hire and fire you.
I agree, with Nessa---guidelines should first be established. So let it be written, so let it be done! ;) I docked a musician who habitually showed up late. That was all the motivation he needed to get his act together.
This will motivate one! LOL!
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How about this: Can or should the church doc a Pastor's Salary? ;D
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How about this: Can or should the church doc a Pastor's Salary? ;D
WOW! LOL! :D
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How about this: Can or should the church doc a Pastor's Salary? ;D
Not if he doesen't get one ;D
Pastor Jeff
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Not if he doesen't get one ;D
Pastor Jeff
I was just messin wit yall ;D
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Just a question. what would your mucisian contract look like. Does anybody have one on file that they can copy and paste... to give people a general idea of what it should look like