LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: Ladyn on April 10, 2008, 12:02:22 AM
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Hi Everyone,
I need a bit of help. I have been teaching our P&W team musicians some music theory in order to get us all on the same page, and so that we can convert to the number system. I have been doing this for 2 months now by starting with scales, intervals, chords, and basic progressions. I even explained the roman numeral system and about leading tones, relationship between the 4 chord and it's 1 chord etc. Explained relationships that help you predict what chord comes next and so on. Today someone told me they did not understand why they needed to understand the number system. That hit me like a Ton of bricks!! I have been working like crazy making sure I covered all of the basics, and making them notebooks with all of this explained very well (or so I thought). Somehow the bass player understands, but the other keyboard player does not. I have demonstrated basic progressions, and we have done exercises around the circle of 5ths using just a basic 1-4-2-5-1 pattern in each key.
I am a bit down right now because I just don't know how else to get the rest to see the freedom that comes with understanding the numbers and learning progression patterns then applying them to songs. What else can I say or do to help their understanding in this area? What might I have done wrong? Do I just need to give them time to grasp it? I really need some advise on this, and I do appreciate any feedback you all can give me.
Thanks,
Nichole
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Can the keyboard player do songs in different keys? If so, try having them play a simple song in several - then point out the interval relationship between the chords (in C, C is the first note of the scale, in G, it's G that's the first note or tonic).
I do this with my students from time to time...
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Hi Everyone,
I need a bit of help. I have been teaching our P&W team musicians some music theory in order to get us all on the same page, and so that we can convert to the number system. I have been doing this for 2 months now by starting with scales, intervals, chords, and basic progressions. I even explained the roman numeral system and about leading tones, relationship between the 4 chord and it's 1 chord etc. Explained relationships that help you predict what chord comes next and so on. Today someone told me they did not understand why they needed to understand the number system. That hit me like a Ton of bricks!! I have been working like crazy making sure I covered all of the basics, and making them notebooks with all of this explained very well (or so I thought). Somehow the bass player understands, but the other keyboard player does not. I have demonstrated basic progressions, and we have done exercises around the circle of 5ths using just a basic 1-4-2-5-1 pattern in each key.
I am a bit down right now because I just don't know how else to get the rest to see the freedom that comes with understanding the numbers and learning progression patterns then applying them to songs. What else can I say or do to help their understanding in this area? What might I have done wrong? Do I just need to give them time to grasp it? I really need some advise on this, and I do appreciate any feedback you all can give me.
Thanks,
Nichole
My opinion is that you helped the person too much. Just let him chew on the information that you gave him, and then you and the bass player can flow. When he sees that he's missing out then he'll start asking questions.
But this all depends on you two progressing "faster" than him. If he feels that he "knows" more then it'll just fortify him even more in his stance.
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You must realize that some people will NEVER understand why they need to learn certain things about music. Others will catch on later, like B3 said, once they see how faster others are progressing. You just keep doing what u doing and hope that one day the light bulb comes on.
If you have to take people aside one-on-one and explain some things, then do that. Remember that the student doesn't really know what is best for him/her, the teacher does. That goes for choirs, bands, or whatever.
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Thanks for the responses. I guess I need to be more patient with them.
TBlock: I think I will pull this individual to the side and explain some things specific to the keyboard. That may help even more.
You must realize that some people will NEVER understand why they need to learn certain things about music. Others will catch on later, like B3 said, once they see how faster others are progressing. You just keep doing what u doing and hope that one day the light bulb comes on.
If you have to take people aside one-on-one and explain some things, then do that. Remember that the student doesn't really know what is best for him/her, the teacher does. That goes for choirs, bands, or whatever.
Great advise! Thanks!
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The real question is do they WANT to learn. Trying to teach someone who doesn't WANT to learn is a waste of time. I know what it's like to deal with musicians who have know desire to branch out and perfect their craft.
Yes, it is frustrating.
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Yeah....some people just learn faster than others.........like me lol. I learned the whole number thing when i was like 13, before theory OR keyboards....lol just as a drummer. I liked math so the whole 1-3-6-2-5-1 thing was kinda simple......if the person wants to learn it they will.......just let it ride
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My Similar Story:
I was one of those people who never wanted to learn theory. I thought it was stupid...and a waste of time. Especially since you could just get chords from other people or play by ear. I was so tired of people on the Chord board telling me to learn theory.
However, I got tired. At some point I realized I had no freedom to express myself on the piano. Just a copy-cat. What's worse, I realized I did not know what I was playing-- or why I was playing it. Those things started to bother me so much, coupled with the fact that I was not progressing. I was stagnated at the same point. It was at that point that a light bulb went off in my head. I had a deep desire to know more and more (Thank you Jesus). I didn't know what I was missing.
Questions to ask:
Maybe you should ask the person(s) if they know what they are playing. Can they explain the chords they are playing; or the relationship between the chords, key, or pattern? Do they know why they are playing in such a way? Ask these and some more questions. When they cant answer the questions, a light bulb should go off. They will probably feel a bit "dumb" with regard to their musical knowledge. That is- if they are not too cocky. This is not to make anyone feel dumb, but to show them that they can be so much better.
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My opinion is that you helped the person too much. Just let him chew on the information that you gave him, and then you and the bass player can flow.
You must realize that some people will NEVER understand why they need to learn certain things about music. Others will catch on later, like B3 said, once they see how faster others are progressing. You just keep doing what u doing and hope that one day the light bulb comes on.
The real question is do they WANT to learn.
Yeah....some people just learn faster than others.........like me lol.
I was one of those people who never wanted to learn theory. I thought it was stupid...and a waste of time. Especially since you could just get chords from other people or play by ear.
From my own experience, one thing that could be a big stumbling block in a person's desire to learn music theory, is his or her ability to play by ear. It seems that the stronger the ability to play by ear, the less of a desire to know the theory part. In his or her eyes, there's really not a need for that.
So it becomes a challenge to convey to them, just how learning music theory will help them. :)
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From my experience, the musicians who do not want to learn theory tend come to a point where they "hit a wall"..
Meanwhile, you who are willing to learn the fundamentals actually progress faster & once they see your progress, they start coming to you..
So I agree with B3..he poly thinks he knows it all because you guys are being kind & nagging him..Just move on & he'll come pleading to you if he really loves his craft..
I also agree with BroAllan..but I think it's dumb not to want to learn theory just because you have a good ear because there are so many good ear players out there who understand the importance of theory.
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I don't think John Peters and Melvin Crispell know a lot of theory, or at least that what I felt from watching their videos. This may be different now, since the videos are old. They do have VERY strong ears, and I'm sure they can listen to a song one time, then pop out their own version on a whim. I admire both of these guys, and have been looking up to them since 1993!
Knowing either is good, but knowing both is definitely better.
A theory person can't really come to a person that has a good ear and say, "You need to learn this." It won't work. From my experience, it'll always be the case that they feel you're the novice and should be getting lessons from them. This may not be the case with this dude, though. That's why I said just do your thing, and when you and the bass player are jamming; you're giving progressions and the bass player is able to follow, but this other guy is stumbling, he'll either want to learn, or get worse and start trying to outplay you guys. You should know his spirit better than me, and probably know which he'd do.
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I don't think John Peters and Melvin Crispell know a lot of theory, or at least that what I felt from watching their videos. This may be different now, since the videos are old. They do have VERY strong ears, and I'm sure they can listen to a song one time, then pop out their own version on a whim. I admire both of these guys, and have been looking up to them since 1993!
Knowing either is good, but knowing both is definitely better.
A theory person can't really come to a person that has a good ear and say, "You need to learn this." It won't work. From my experience, it'll always be the case that they feel you're the novice and should be getting lessons from them. This may not be the case with this dude, though. That's why I said just do your thing, and when you and the bass player are jamming; you're giving progressions and the bass player is able to follow, but this other guy is stumbling, he'll either want to learn, or get worse and start trying to outplay you guys. You should know his spirit better than me, and probably know which he'd do.
Thats what I was thinking. How skilled are these guys? Is there really a problem? I would only continue with this if there is a problem. Yeah theory is good, but its not always necasarry, as we can see with John Peters and MC
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Thats what I was thinking. How skilled are these guys? Is there really a problem? I would only continue with this if there is a problem. Yeah theory is good, but its not always necasarry, as we can see with John Peters and MC
Thank you everyone for your help. I did fail to mention that there is a problem with the level of playing with this individual. They play most of their chords in root position, rely on others for chords, and can not build anything beyond a 7th chord on their own. It makes it hard when I have to teach a new song to also teach the voicing of the chords or why are we playing a C# chord over a G at the time of teaching it to the singers. If I say descend chromatically, or even if we are playing something they have played before using 1-4-5 and I add in the 6-2-5-1 or a diminished chord it becomes an issue. I am not the best player by any means; I am growing and learning everyday. I do try to make the songs interesting and different hence the lessons so that we all can understand what is being done in these songs and not be tied to a lead sheet!! It would be different if they had a good ear and could pick up what they hear, but they can't do that at all! I guess I need to be patient and pray.
Virtuenow: I appreciate your honesty it has helped me to understand what I am dealing with.
BTW: John Peters and Melvin Crispell are awesome musicians. I think they have an understanding of music that enables them to do amazing things without lookin'.
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Yes, CO-SIGN to that..
Theory is only a means to an end..what matters is being able to play what's needed.
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Thank you everyone for your help. I did fail to mention that there is a problem with the level of playing with this individual. They play most of their chords in root position, rely on others for chords, and can not build anything beyond a 7th chord on their own. It makes it hard when I have to teach a new song to also teach the voicing of the chords or why are we playing a C# chord over a G at the time of teaching it to the singers. If I say descend chromatically, or even if we are playing something they have played before using 1-4-5 and I add in the 6-2-5-1 or a diminished chord it becomes an issue. I am not the best player by any means; I am growing and learning everyday. I do try to make the songs interesting and different hence the lessons so that we all can understand what is being done in these songs and not be tied to a lead sheet!! It would be different if they had a good ear and could pick up what they hear, but they can't do that at all! I guess I need to be patient and pray.
Virtuenow: I appreciate your honesty it has helped me to understand what I am dealing with.
BTW: John Peters and Melvin Crispell are awesome musicians. I think they have an understanding of music that enables them to do amazing things without lookin'.
Yeah go ahead and make them learn theory. You are the leader, so they should listen and learn.
As for the last comment. There are So many guys who can do the most amazing stuff and have no understanding of what they do, They just feel it
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Yes, CO-SIGN to that..
Theory is only a means to an end..what matters is being able to play what's needed.
Thus. my. struggle. :-\
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Thus. my. struggle. :-\
I know what U man..Not the greatest feeling >:(
But like MM's signature say man..we can get there..
I respect anyone who tries to play music..But I just adore some1 with the best of both worlds--theory & can play (whether it's by feel or sheer hard work).
I absolutely adore such players if they are humble 8)
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I know what U man..Not the greatest feeling >:(
But like MM's signature say man..we can get there..
I respect anyone who tries to play music..But I just adore some1 with the best of both worlds--theory & can play (whether it's by feel or sheer hard work).
I absolutely adore such players if they are humble 8)
Agreed and Indeed.
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Yes, CO-SIGN to that..
Theory is only a means to an end..what matters is being able to play what's needed.
Exactly what I needed! I am going to use this quote in our next practice. I just want everyone to be able to play what is needed without so much "drama"
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I don't know if there is anyone our there like me, but I find it extremely difficult to play w/out theory. If I don't understand something, I can't play it effectively. I can spit it back like a computer, but w/out that understanding it won't mean diddly squat to me.
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So my million-dollar question is which method of playing is best, by hear, by sheet music or by chords?
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So my million-dollar question is which method of playing is best, by hear, by sheet music or by chords?
http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,43556.0.html
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So my million-dollar question is which method of playing is best, by hear, by sheet music or by chords?
And the answer is: Neither is best, it's up to the individual what method works best for him/her. ;)
I'll take my million dollars in cash, check, or money order, LOL!!! :D
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And the answer is: Neither is best, it's up to the individual what method works best for him/her. ;)
I'll take my million dollars in cash, check, or money order, LOL!!! :D
Thank you!
Now, this is no joke, if I were able I would give you a million dollars without a problem, why because you are such a blessing to our Lords Kingdom work. You share all of the knowledge that the Lord has blessed you with so freely. You just don’t know how much you inspire me. Keep doing what you are doing and you will be rewarded with more millions than you could ever imagine.
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I don't know if there is anyone our there like me, but I find it extremely difficult to play w/out theory. If I don't understand something, I can't play it effectively. I can spit it back like a computer, but w/out that understanding it won't mean diddly squat to me.
I'm with you.
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I don't know if there is anyone our there like me, but I find it extremely difficult to play w/out theory. If I don't understand something, I can't play it effectively. I can spit it back like a computer, but w/out that understanding it won't mean diddly squat to me.
I am this way too. I think some musicians are fine NOT understanding, and thus my dilemma.
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I'll use sheet music as a guide to where the notes/lyrics should be. When playing a hymn, every lyric has a note, in gospel the lyrics stay the same but the notes sometimes changes depending on the singer. I've learned both methods and when I'm playing I don't use a number system. Lets take the song "Praise Him" in the key of Eb. When I approach a song I use my system of melody, chord and progression techniques so that I can build around the song. If you've watched my videos you will see that technique in action.
Example #1
lyric line - praise him /chord,progresson or run / praise him / chord, pattern run, arppegio run or chord/ praise him
Now before I even start to play I envision the lyric first, the note second and what I want to hear around the note last. This is done throughtout the entire song as I'm playing. Yes, if you're thinking thats impoosible you are correct. For me it's automatic, I concieve it, my mind transmits the thoughts to my fingers and then I play it. I often think 3 - 5 chords ahead of the song so when I get there I know which phrase/chord/run/pattern I'm going to use.
What you have found is that no two musicians think alike at the same time. When I play with my brother I have to scale back on my technique and cue in to what he's doing. Most musicians want to be the "lead" player. I've learned how to be a good follower first and lead when neccessary. I don't know how you're practice sessions go but I might suggest you find out what are favorite keys, favorite songs and favorite musician they would like to emulate. It may help in making the musicians more comfortable when you're making suggestions as it relates to playing in ministry. I know I can watch Richard Smallwood play all night, learning his technique of classical and jazz around gospel songs. Find some youtube videos they might enjoy watching and learning from (screen them first though).
Oh, my example above you might want to see what goes on in my head. OK
lyric - ..praise him/chord pattern, decend,climb split fingers...../praise him
note - ..Eb.....Eb............................ ...................................G... ...G
chord - F G Bb Eb...Gb Ab B, D/ G B G , E/ G C G, F/ G D G.......Bb D Eb G
bass - ..G..............Ab........G........... .A..........B...................C
This is a qucik snapshot of how I visualize how I want to play around lyric/melody. I said earlier I have 3-5 patterns pre selected before I get to the song and I choose which one at the time I play it. Yes like a computer I have stored up all the songs I've played and the patterns in those songs so that I can use them in other songs. Thats why I don't use the number system, I would have to change my appoach to playing.
This is why I stress learn your scales, chords with inversions and progressions in every key. When you have a full bank music to pull from you'll never be "broke for a chord".
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This is a qucik snapshot of how I visualize how I want to play around lyric/melody. I said earlier I have 3-5 patterns pre selected before I get to the song and I choose which one at the time I play it. Yes like a computer I have stored up all the songs I've played and the patterns in those songs so that I can use them in other songs. Thats why I don't use the number system, I would have to change my appoach to playing.
This is why I stress learn your scales, chords with inversions and progressions in every key. When you have a full bank music to pull from you'll never be "broke for a chord".
It sounds like you are using a modified version of the numbering system. At least you are using some ideas that can easily be applied by the numbering system. It also sounds like your patterns are based on the way you want the music to sound-- as in staccato, leggato, appregio, loud, soft--- not the notes or chords themselves. That is a pretty creative pattern. I may try to get my 3 to 5 patterns down-- only mine will probably be based on the numbering system; as well as a try at your pattern variations. I think this is a good idea! Thanks.
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Nice thread :)
4 me, the RH seems to direct me where my LH will go, but I'm still learning to play chords independently with both hands..
Just like Soundofjoy has a bank, I also have a limited bank of RH chords for each melody note that I associate with specific bass notes..& the more songs I learn, the more I associate more bass notes with a specific chord. I think this is a slightly different approach to the way most people do it, ie, of finding the bass note 1st & then adding chords to it..
I find identifying the melody 1st, then dressing it up with chords & adding bass to it easier.
I start with the bass notes & melody note in songs that have a strong/ distinctive bass.
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I don't know if there is anyone our there like me, but I find it extremely difficult to play w/out theory. If I don't understand something, I can't play it effectively. I can spit it back like a computer, but w/out that understanding it won't mean diddly squat to me.
I agree and this brings up another question. What exactly goes through the mind of someone that does not know "some" theory? I guess it can be compared to someone giving you directions without knowing the names of the streets.
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I agree and this brings up another question. What exactly goes through the mind of someone that does not know "some" theory? I guess it can be compared to someone giving you directions without knowing the names of the streets.
I believe what goes through their minds is patterns. Even though they don't know the theory, they can recognize the patterns that they have practiced. It's like hitting a bunch of buttons at the right time, u may not know what the buttons do, but you do know when to push them.
They theory helps you to know what the names of the chords/runs are and why you are playing particular chords/runs at particular times.
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Im sorry i have to disagree with a lot of people on here theory is always needed the basic not the harder stuff but anyways theory just gives you understanding of whats going on and it skips years of trail and error. Many people think they have a good ear but gospel music has a lot of the same runs and chord changes so listening to it for a while you will start to memorize them. I know a lot of musicians that can listen to a gospel track and know whats going on but listen to a r and b track and have no clue. Im telling you guys on LGM if you don't learn your scales most importantly the major scale your ear wont be as good as you think and everything wont make sense. I learned to play by ear by learning the different intervals and how they sound in relation to the tonic or key of the song now im able to hear any run in any style of music and im able to play it without thinking and I realized i had perfect pitch from it too lol so theory doesn't make you a sick musician (experimenting) but theory helps you advance faster and helps you understand how people use certain phat chords or substitute the chords in the progresion im getting off topic lol im bout to preach about theory im going to start a post on theory 4 real! ;D
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I agree and this brings up another question. What exactly goes through the mind of someone that does not know "some" theory? I guess it can be compared to someone giving you directions without knowing the names of the streets.
Nice Analogy.
I believe what goes through their minds is patterns. Even though they don't know the theory, they can recognize the patterns that they have practiced. It's like hitting a bunch of buttons at the right time, u may not know what the buttons do, but you do know when to push them.
They theory helps you to know what the names of the chords/runs are and why you are playing particular chords/runs at particular times.
I have to co-sign this..This week I had this beast showing me a song or two & all he was saying is "you play this chord, & then this & then you wait for the beat & then play this.."..
Whenever I was responding & trying to tell him now what he was doing, he wouldn't want to hear of it (which is a pity becuase if he knew his basic theory he could go very far..the passing chords he was showing me included stuff such as subing a ii with a v-Idom-IV when coming from a iii..blahblah..
The beauty of that is I can easily identify songs with similar patterns & immediately apply it, surpassing many hours of trial & error (like Organman88 has stated).
Organman88, I'm waiting for that thread on theory ;D
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all he was saying is "you play this chord, & then this & then you wait for the beat & then play this.."..
Man, I hate when musicians talk like that. It actually makes me angry, but I try to stay calm cuz I know they don't know any better.
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Man, I hate when musicians talk like that. It actually makes me angry, but I try to stay calm cuz I know they don't know any better.
You know, when you think about it, theory can be intimidating. I was talking to a guy that works at a bank and he uses the words; speculate, hedge, forward contracts, invest, portfolio, derivatives, diversification, debts, equities, securities, strike price, etc. Then when I come here we use terms like; scales, major 7th,subdominate, flat fifth, dominate 7th, 7-3-6 progression, #5 #9, etc. Theory is important but like you implied you gotta be patient.
By the way, much respect to you for sharing your knowledge in regards to theory.
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True theory is very intimidating most of the time--but very empowering wen you actually understand it 8)
I know even finance terms are very intimidating even for finance majors :P, but I think it all depends on one's desire to be well-equipped or not..If I come across something that I find intimidating (theory-wise in this case), if I'm aware of it's benefits, I invest some time & brainpower into it & those few hours of learning will help me for the rest of my life..
But if you always evade the fundamentals you'll fall short in some areas where you should be on top of the game & have no 1 but yourself to blame..
So in that banking scenario you gave, the simple way out is to ask the banker what a portfolio is instead of telling him not to bother, because it might very well be what you need to know to about to make better investing decisions (just like knowing the relationship of notes in music helps 1 to play the right "grace notes" at the right time).
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Those are great anologies, except you Have to know financial terms to work as a financial dude. You dont need to know theory to be a succesful musician.
And I like the one about the street names. That proves that you may know how to get somwhere, but it would be very difficult to tell someone how to get there
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Those are great anologies, except you Have to know financial terms to work as a financial dude. You dont need to know theory to be a succesful musician.
And I like the one about the street names. That proves that you may know how to get somwhere, but it would be very difficult to tell someone how to get there
mmm... interesting point.
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You dont need to know theory to be a succesful musician.
Hmmm....I totally disagree wit ya there man. Not knowing theory may make u a successful keys player, or organ player, or whatever, but that does not make u a musician. Musicians, successful or not, at least know the basics of theory.
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Hmmm....I totally disagree wit ya there man. Not knowing theory may make u a successful keys player, or organ player, or whatever, but that does not make u a musician. Musicians, successful or not, at least know the basics of theory.
I knew you would disagree with that. So we are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Do you agree?
I think being anointed and touching someones heart with your music is a lot more important than knowing theory.
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I honestly believe you can't call yourself a beast if you don't know what your playing on your craft i believe knowledge is power and if a guy can run and play fancy chords all over the board and he/she can't tell you because they don't know in my eyes a player who play average that knows there basic theory is better than the fancy guy because you will always have that knowledge over them.
OH yeah musallio im going to start a post on theory A.S.A.P. lol ;D
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Musicians, successful or not, at least know the basics of theory.
I agree.
Some will say that all musicians should also read music. Do you think that is true?
I dont think that we all need to read music on a pro level, but I think "acomplished" church musicians should at least know how to read out of a hymn book. But just because they dont read, doesnt make them not musician
I honestly believe you can't call yourself a beast if you don't know what your playing on your craft i believe knowledge is power and if a guy can run and play fancy chords all over the board and he/she can't tell you because they don't know in my eyes a player who play average that knows there basic theory is better than the fancy guy because you will always have that knowledge over them.
OH yeah musallio im going to start a post on theory A.S.A.P. lol ;D
Why must they tell you what they are doing?
HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION. lets say Jimi Hendrix did not know theory. Would he still not have been a beast?
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I knew you would disagree with that. So we are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Do you agree?
I think being anointed and touching someones heart with your music is a lot more important than knowing theory.
O.K., so you're annointed and you touch someone's heart with your music. Does that make u a successful musician? I think not, that makes u a good player. That's like saying you can be a successful preacher w/out reading your Bible and gaining more understanding. To be successful at anything you need to have something upstairs other than "Do this, then play that, then switch that around..."
I guess we will agree to disagree.
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HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION. lets say Jimi Hendrix did not know theory. Would he still not have been a beast?
Nope, he would have been what I said, a great guitar player.
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O.K., so you're annointed and you touch someone's heart with your music. Does that make u a successful musician? I think not, that makes u a good player. That's like saying you can be a successful preacher w/out reading your Bible and gaining more understanding. To be successful at anything you need to have something upstairs other than "Do this, then play that, then switch that around..."
I guess we will agree to disagree.
It also depends on your definition of sucsess. Sucsess means reaching ones goals. NOt T-Block's or Under13's goals. Every musician has a different goal, and just because thier goals dont meet our expectations doesnt mean that they are not a real musician or an unsucsessful musician.
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I agree.
Some will say that all musicians should also read music. Do you think that is true?
I dont think that we all need to read music on a pro level, but I think "acomplished" church musicians should at least know how to read out of a hymn book. But just because they dont read, doesnt make them not musician
Why must they tell you what they are doing?
HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION. lets say Jimi Hendrix did not know theory. Would he still not have been a beast?
IM saying if you heard u person playing any instrument and they are a "beast" and you ask them what chord was that or how did you come up with this change and they can't tell you because they don't know they lose BBIIGG points. You asked why must they tell you what they are doing, If you want to know then you would ask. ;)
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I think the overall thing the "Theory" people are forgetting or missing is that the "Ear" people are processing the same information just in different ways.
They're thinking the same things as theory people they're just not thinking numbers they're thinking patterns. I would agree the "theory" side is often more efficient but I vehemently disagree that "ear" people aren't musicians because they don't use the technical terms.
It's not as if the "ear" players don't know what they're doing. They don't know from a technical standpoint but they do from a practical standpoint and isn't that really what matters?
I mean they know what a dominant 7th is and they'll use it in its correct context, they just don't know it by name.
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O.K., so you're annointed and you touch someone's heart with your music. Does that make u a successful musician? I think not, that makes u a good player. That's like saying you can be a successful preacher w/out reading your Bible and gaining more understanding. To be successful at anything you need to have something upstairs other than "Do this, then play that, then switch that around..."
I guess we will agree to disagree.
Do you know the accepted forms of biblical exegesis in the apostolic period?
Do you know the difference between a high/low context society?
Can you tell me which one the Bible was written for? Can you tell me from which POV it was written in?
Not all Christians are going to know the answers to those questions, but would that make them less Christian because they couldn't tell you?
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Oakey dokey guys :o
All your points are valid/ correct in 1 way or another..
before this thread loses it's value & every1 goes off a tangent, why not leave it hanging here :-\ ;D
I think the main point was to stress the importance of knowing one's theory.
Yes, the great players who play without knowing their theory are indisputably great because they play what pleases the audience, but from a teaching standpoint, their teaching limits 1 from reaching their full potential.
It's no different to students going from high school to business school to learn about investing because that will further & quickly sharpen them in business acumen & enable them to advise their clients more effectively..Why is it that someone who doesn't possess the prerequisite educational qualifications required to serve a longer term in their internships/ have more work experience? It's the power of theory!!! & the more you combine theory with practice, the sharper you become, at a faster rate because sometimes when doing only the practical, you may ask "why do I have to this this way?" & the cold response you get is " because that's how it is :-\ :'(!" & U have to live with it..left hanging... Ok, I'll stop there!
As 4 success, yeah, I guess we can't really judge success for some1 because if they set goals I regard as sub-par, they can proudly say they are successful because they can play anything in a specific key when I think I still have a long way to go because I can only play everything in 4 keys. :(
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Some will say that all musicians should also read music. Do you think that is true?
I dont think that we all need to read music on a pro level, but I think "accomplished" church musicians should at least know how to read out of a hymn book. But just because they dont read, doesnt make them not musician
I do both - but think that music readers shouldn't look down on those who can't.
But if those who play only by ear take the time and effort to learn theory and notation, they will be a "triple threat" - skills, ear, AND reading music off the page...
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The original intent of my post was to help with explaining "why" it is beneficial to learn theory. The conclusion is that theory does make learning easier and quicker for everyone. It is one thing if you can play what you hear without needing a lot of instruction (in terms of playing with a group), but when you have a hard time discerning a simple 1-4-1-5-1 pattern then there NEEDS to be some instruction in basic theory. If you are only playing by yourself then learning would be just up to you, but when you are a part of a group learning the basic nomenclature should be a priority and is a necessity in order to flow well as a group.
That said, I believe that as Christian musicians we all would have one standard that we follow, and that standard is the one set forth in the Word. I think that if we are really trying to be all that the LORD wants that we will learn all we can without balking at the mere suggestion that we need to continue to learn our craft. The Bible speaks of both "skillful wisdom" and "Godly wisdom". I'll take me for an example. I have always been able sing well, but I joined the choir in the 5th grade because it was neat! Then as I became older I realized the value in all of those things I was taught about singing, and I wanted to learn more. True I could sing without lessons as do many singers, but that ability only made me want to learn more! The same with my instrument. I played the keyboard a little, and that made me want to know more. Relentless pursuit of the skills necessary to more effectively serve in whatever capacity we are called to should always be a part of being a Christian.
Serving God on any level is not always comfortable or convenient, and sometimes we are required to do things that stretch us and require us to search our hearts to see are we truly committed to HIS will. I am not saying that a person who does not know theory is not trying to serve God, but I think that person will feel a push to know and understand more as he/she draws closer to the Lord. A true musician will want to learn more and actually pursue that knowledge. I know for me that knowledge has proved to be an awesome blessing.
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UPDATE!!!!
There has been a breakthrough!! The musician that did not understand "why" learning some theory would benefit them has now told me that they are beginning to understand!!!! They came to me to tell me that they were sorry, and they realized they were trying to understand everything all at once which led to their frustration. I am in awe! I know this was the hand of the LORD! We are going to do some one-on-one work this week!
Thank you all for your help, and I want to encourage anyone else faced with this to keep doing what you know is right. Pray, pray, pray, and let God move on the hearts of those that you are trying to help.
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UPDATE!!!!
There has been a breakthrough!! The musician that did not understand "why" learning some theory would benefit them has now told me that they are beginning to understand!!!! They came to me to tell me that they were sorry, and they realized they were trying to understand everything all at once which led to their frustration. I am in awe! I know this was the hand of the LORD! We are going to do some one-on-one work this week!
Thank you all for your help, and I want to encourage anyone else faced with this to keep doing what you know is right. Pray, pray, pray, and let God move on the hearts of those that you are trying to help.
Praise God!!! :D ;D :D