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Gospel Instruments => Gospel Keyboard / Piano => Topic started by: Teddie_Keys on April 21, 2008, 09:59:29 PM
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Can anyone please help me out? I have been playing for about 2 years now and I have came a long way. I do know quite a bit of theory. However, when it comes down to playing........I have problems placing my diminished and dominate chords in my progressions. When it comes to playing songs and I use them, I can understand why it was used in that spot of a song. Especially the fully diminished chord (it seems to be used like a transition or a passing chord often from my experiances). And like you T-Block I love the sound of a fully diminished chord! I seem to only really use it when I am backing up a preacher or getting ready to go into shouting music.
So with that said......Let me share what I know so you I can maybe make it a little bit easier on you all.
Major Scale (using Key of C)
I - ii - iii - IV - V° - vi - vii
Cmaj - Dm - Em - Fmaj - Gmaj - Am - Bm
Now is the V° the most common place to use your dominant?
Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?
Take for instance this progression I have started playing..........
Key of F
A#, A, G, F, D
FM9 - played - F / G A C E
Gm9 - played - G / A Bb D F
A#M7 - played - A# / A# D F A
Am7 - played - A / A C E G
FM - played - F / A C F
Now how can anyone throw a dominant or fully diminished chord in there somehow? You can add more chords in this progression if need be to demostrate there use.
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Now is the V° the most common place to use your dominate?
The most common, but not the only one. You seem to know your numbers, so I'll try and put it this way - a lot of movements can be reconduced to a ii-V-I, and the V can almost always be a dominant.
For example,
- v-I-IV ("..I once was lost...") can be thought of as a ii-V-I, just moved down 3.5 tones. You can play Gmin7-Cdom7-F
- vii-III-vi ("..never would've made it..") can be thought of as a ii-V-i (note the minor "i"), just moved down 1.5 tones. You can play Bmin7b5-Edom7-Amin.
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Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?
vii is usually half-diminished (Bmin7b5, B-D-F-A).
Every time you move up a tone (from I to ii, from IV to V, from V to vi) you can use diminished chords.
You can also use a dim chord half a step below where you want to get to.
See the progression below (I don't have a keyboard now, so it might be off).
The new chords are a bit over the top, but I hope this is helpful ;D
Key of F
A#, A, G, F, D
FM9 - played - F / G A C E
F#dim - F# / F# A C D# (I to ii)
Gm9 - played - G / A Bb D F
Fdom7 - F / C D# F A
A#M7 - played - A# / A# D F A
G#dim - G# / G# B D F (half a step below the Amin)
Am7 - played - A / A C E G
FM - played - F / A C F
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well. Elio's done exactly what I was going to do.. 8)
i.o.w, use the #1 /b2 as a fully diminished chord when moving between I & ii.. (the transition between the minor & major sounds natural because of the "unstable" characteristics of the diminished chord).
Tip: for all the notes falling outside the major scale, you can actually play them as fully diminished chords & everything will sound cool ;) (ie, #1, b3, b5 ,#5) I guess that's why I like the chromatic scale so much!
But when doing preacher chords, if I play the chromatic scale, I prefer playing
I add 9/13-#Idim7-ii7-bIII11-iii11-IV7-bVdim7-V-#Vdim7-vi-ii-V-I...
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Now is the V° the most common place to use your dominate?
Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?
Answer to question #1: V isn't the most common place to use a dominant chord, it is just the main/true dominant of your key. You can make a dominant chord off any of the scale degrees. When u play a dominant chord on any degree other than V, it is called a Secondary Dominant. More info about that in these 2 links:
Secondary Dominants: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,37792.0.html
Secondary Dominant Chord Practice: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,43393.0.html
Answer to question 2: This answer is gonna almost mirror the answer I gave above. Since vii is naturally diminished already, it is usually expected that a diminished-type chord is played on that degree. Diminished chords are tricky little critters cuz there are 3 kinds. 2 of them can be placed in a key, 1 of them can't be unless u know the root & resolution.
The regular diminished & half-diminished chords can be placed into a key. The fully diminished chord can't be placed into a key because all of the notes are the same distance apart. Since they have no key, they make great passing chords. I tend to use fully dim. chords on: #1/b2 (resolve to 2), #2/b3 (resolve to 3), #4/5 (resolve to 5), #5/b6 (resolve to 6)
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Answer to question #1: V isn't the most common place to use a dominant chord, it is just the main/true dominant of your key. You can make a dominant chord off any of the scale degrees. When u play a dominant chord on any degree other than V, it is called a Secondary Dominant. More info about that in these 2 links:
Secondary Dominants: [url]http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,37792.0.html[/url]
Secondary Dominant Chord Practice: [url]http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,43393.0.html[/url]
Answer to question 2: This answer is gonna almost mirror the answer I gave above. Since vii is naturally diminished already, it is usually expected that a diminished-type chord is played on that degree. Diminished chords are tricky little critters cuz there are 3 kinds. 2 of them can be placed in a key, 1 of them can't be unless u know the root & resolution.
The regular diminished & half-diminished chords can be placed into a key. The fully diminished chord can't be placed into a key because all of the notes are the same distance apart. Since they have no key, they make great passing chords. I tend to use fully dim. chords on: #1/b2 (resolve to 2), #2/b3 (resolve to 3), #4/b5 (resolve to 5), #5/b6 (resolve to 6)
;)
GREAT ANSWER..
Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..
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;)
GREAT ANSWER..
Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..
HAHAHAHAHA, u always wanna make everything a sticky. :D
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;)
GREAT ANSWER..
Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..
Request granted. ;) Although, T-Block does have a point.
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HAHAHAHAHA, u always wanna make everything a sticky. :D
LoL..
:D I can't help it if I think the stuff is so useful!
I've stopped using colours on my thick textbooks becuase they end up looking like textbooks..
Request granted. ;) Although, T-Block does have a point.
Thanks sir :)
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I'm at work right now so I haven't been able to put it to use. However, reading it does seem to make sense. For a dominate (secondary dominate if played other than V?) it's wanting to resolve to the IV. So I am going to attempt to apply this tonight in my practice time.
And as for the Diminished or fully diminished, are common for passing. The Diminished 7 is not as common necessarilly to the vii degree of the scale, but the half diminished is? Diminished are commonly used to go up and down in whole steps as a filler is my understanding.
i.e.
C / C E G I
C# / C# E G passing/filler (#1/b2) C# half diminished
D / D F A ii
and visa versa?
I have a progression book that gives me a I - ii - iii - IV progression. Can I add the V? before the IV?
I - ii - iii- V - IV
Like I said, I am at work. So I can't test this out but, depending on the rhythm and what is going in my progression a natural Dominate can resolve to the IV comfortably? However, a Secondary Dominate is an all together different thing in a way.
Secondary Dominate - changing a natural Minor to a Major
(ex. playing a Emaj in a C scale, that Emaj chord is considered a Secondary Dominate)
I'm just trying to wrap my head around this and become a better muscian. So, thank you all for your input and help!
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You've got the general idea. As for your proposal:
I - ii - iii- V - IV
The question to ask is: how to get to IV? A way to do that is to think what the V of IV is. The answer is I. So you can do
I - ii - iii- Idom7 - IV
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i.e.
C / C E G I
C# / C# E G passing/filler (#1/b2) C# half diminished
D / D F A ii
Like I said, I am at work. So I can't test this out but, depending on the rhythm and what is going in my progression a natural Dominate can resolve to the IV comfortably? However, a Secondary Dominate is an all together different thing in a way.
Let me comment on this right here. O.K., that C#-E-G is not a half-diminished chord, it is a regular diminished chord. In order for a chord to be half-diminished u need a b7 on top of the diminished chord. So, a C# half-dim chord would be: C#-E-G-B
Now, the other thing is a dominant chord DOES NOT resolve to IV, it resloves to IV OF THE CHORD. So, a secondary dominant works the same way as the true dominant. The only difference is what degree ur forming a dominant chord on. The true dominant is formed of V. A dominant formed off any other scale degree is a secondary dominant. They both peform the same function though.
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Request granted. ;) Although, T-Block does have a point.
I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.
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I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.
:D :D :D :D
You are one of the funniest cats on here, dude. Real Talk. :D :D
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Well now that i know, i suppose groveling and floor-scraping is in order.
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:D :D :D :D
You are one of the funniest cats on here, dude. Real Talk. :D :D
4 sho :D :D
I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.
Yeah, I always wondered why this dude was always online whenever I logged in..of course it clicked early that some characters who've camped here are mods ;D phew, for once I seem to be alone here..yipee, no disputed statements from my side 4 once ;D
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Hello friends. Am new here & am also a beginner. Please can some one direct me to where all one needs to know about playing the piano is treated step by step? Cus i don't really understand these posts. They seem advanced for me. I mean a place where i can learn the basic rudiments of piano theoritically and practically from the scratch..
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Hello friends. Am new here & am also a beginner. Please can some one direct me to where all one needs to know about playing the piano is treated step by step? Cus i don't really understand these posts. They seem advanced for me. I mean a place where i can learn the basic rudiments of piano theoritically and practically from the scratch..
Hi Chukme,
Welcome to LGM.
Spend the next month here:
http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,42768.0.html (http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,42768.0.html)
http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php?board=47.0 (http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php?board=47.0)
All the best with your learning. If you are stuck, ask questions and the guys will gladly help ;)