LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: ddwilkins on May 11, 2010, 01:25:57 PM
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Bishop Lester Love Putting A Twist On Love Songs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxQV51JnMtk#)
How many would have played at this service?
I would have.
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Bishop Lester Love Putting A Twist On Love Songs ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxQV51JnMtk#[/url])
How many would have played at this service?
I would have.
I would finish the service and tender my resignation.
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.....yeap and this is where the Church is going...... ?/? :-\
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Just when i thought i've seen everything. A LITTLE LEAVEN..... 1 COR. 5:6-7
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I know people watching this video is wondering why I asked this. I really do have a reason. From watching the various responses to the tony russell video, I thought this would be interesting to recieve some responses, especially to the first song. How many remember Kirk Franklin's "Silver and Gold" song? I just looked up the lyrics to his song and Alicia's, and honestly, she just paraphrased everything from Kirk's song. The other example that's not in the video is R. Kelly's "I believe I can fly". Yolanda took it a step further and sang the exact same words. What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't get caught up with secular vs. gospel so deep. I think that some people feel that the person who wrote this or that particular song makes the words unGodly, which is not true. I remember on a local gospel station people were calling upset at Bebe and Cece Winan's song, "Close to you." There explanation was that it didn't reference God anywhere in the lyrics. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I'm not a believer and follower of Christ, I'm 100% for Christ.
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So people, help me to understand how this is wrong? Can you say that the lyrics to the song, "Always and Forever" as performed by Heatwave, are not 100% true of God's love? Who do you know (besides GOD) who can say
That the love they have for your will be the same tomorrow
That the love they give you is the love you always dream of
That the love they give to you will make you forget all your hurts, fears and troubles
That they have been planning to show you how much they love you for a very long time
Doesn't Scripture say that God loves us with an everlasting love?
Doesn't Scripture say that God will never leave us nor forsake us?
Doesn't Scripture say that God loved us before we were born and that chose us to be His very special possesion?
I get the concern; far too many preachers pass off secular pandering to our "felt needs" as just reaching the people where they are, but I don't think this minister is off base. In fact, of all the lyrics of all the love songs, Jesus is the only one who could say the words, and everyone of them would be true. How's that for interesting?
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I loved the video!!!
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I wish I could be like you dd and kevmove and be able to enjoy music such as this and praise God. But when I hear it, I do not always immediately realize that the artist singing the song is praising God. And that is where my problem lies with these type of discussions
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the problem isn't the words. The problem is that we know the the originals were meant for and were talking about, so you subconsciously connect that.
And how do we know that they aren't talking about God? Because they don't mention God. If you're singing about God you're not going to HIDE it by not saying his name. We know that these songs were meant to help you get your "freak on", so why even bring that kind of feel into a church?!?!
Lets put it this way, GOSPEL is about spreaing the word of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior, so HOW ON EARTH can you spread the Gospel if you don't even mention him? Also how on earth are non believers suppose to know you're singing about Gospel if you don't mention him? The bottom line is that you can't and they won't know.
Since we've deduced that this is no longer Gospel the next question is, then what is it? well it's an attempt at a cross over to make more money, that's all. There's no black or white on the subject.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with ALL secular music, however when you try to pawn it off as Gospel it's a mockery! Call a spade a spade and lets keep it moving.
The final point is, what purpose does non gospel music have in a church who's mission is to teach the gospel?!?!! the answer is none, once again no black or white about it.
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If I would have been informed ahead of time that this was how the service was going to be conducted, I would have expressed my concerns with it. If nothing changed, then I would not have played. If I happened to already be in position, playing through the service and it "went in this direction", I would have just rode it out and discussed it with the appropriate people afterward. I doubt that I would quit over this unless I thought the potential for recurrence was high.
I play at a church where we play Joe Pace's "I Will Bless The Lord At All Times" (the music is pretty much the Staple Singers "I'll Take You There") and "Let It Rain" (the music is a mild adaptation of Prince's "Purple Rain"). But the lyrics in neither case parallels the secular songs that the music is based on. For me, that's fine. And I don't have a problem with playing the secular versions of either song in the right setting. I also don't have a problem with playing the secular versions of any of the songs Bishop Lester Love sang, in the proper setting. The sanctuary is not what I would consider the right setting. btjm
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What about Karen and kierra singing Jill Scott's "He Loves me"?
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1 CORINTHIANS 5:6-7 LITTLE LEAVEN....
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i can just imagine one of the musicians playing this while someone in the audience or choir giving them the eye. wink wink. lol.
im thinking this had to be known in advance, unless the musicians normal play these songs because they were immediately in synch.
but i know some people wouldve been asking the usher could they have their dollar back that they put in the offering earlier.
and guys that are married, no more love songs to ur wife. songs to Jesus only. lol
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I think we over react as Christians! There have been many gospel songs were the music derived from the secular setting, but because the words have been changed dramatically...it's ok. However, I looked at the songs that the Bishop was singing and thought, "These words really don't need to be changed because that's how I feel about him."
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I actually liked it. He took love songs & sung them in a church setting. I thought the songs that he picked are great examples of what love is about. The only intent the song writer had was to write a beautiful love song. Maybe to there spouse, fiance or just someone they loved or as he did, he chose to use Christ as the one he loved. Check out the book Song of Solomon in the bible. Solomon is laying it on thick. I don't know if those are love songs, love letters or whatever. But it tells me, what that brotha was doing is ok. Especially considering the songs he chose. Now if would have picked R Kelly's "12 plays" or Silks "I wanna get freaky with you", then there would a biiig problem. But Always & Forever, Reunited & that Alicia Keys song, get real fellas.
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I actually liked it. He took love songs & sung them in a church setting. I thought the songs that he picked are great examples of what love is about. The only intent the song writer had was to write a beautiful love song. Maybe to there spouse, fiance or just someone they loved or as he did, he chose to use Christ as the one he loved. Check out the book Song of Solomon in the bible. Solomon is laying it on thick. I don't know if those are love songs, love letters or whatever. But it tells me, what that brotha was doing is ok. Especially considering the songs he chose. Now if would have picked R Kelly's "12 plays" or Silks "I wanna get freaky with you", then there would a biiig problem. But Always & Forever, Reunited & that Alicia Keys song, get real fellas.
I agree. esp. about the songs of solomon. If he could sing about love, why cant we?
I just finished the video; imo its not a big deal if this was a one time thing, but I wouldnt want that every service
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And the scriptures tell us "there is nothing new under the sun" This is not anything new Rev James Clevland took a Gladys Knight son an made his own and visa versa. God used a mule,donkey,*** to get his point across. Our God uses all to move. Why cant we as christians have love songs that are deep and meaning full to our Lord and savior. We dont play the old hyms that our parents and grandparents came up on but we still love the Lord our God just the same. Lets not take away from the big picture as one of you said Jesus is the answer!
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I'm getting ready to start something, not to offend but to demonstrate how denominations can effect the opinions of GOD's People. Here it goes.... I will go out on a limb and say that most of those who oppose this video is from a COGIC/HOLYNESS background. Maybe Pentecostal. Those who are Baptist really don't see it one way are the other. Some will be for it and some will not. Those who are non-denominational without a COGIC/HOLYNESS/PENTECOSRTAL influence will love it. My point is, it is all based on your teachings on how you respond to this video. In my opinion and based off of my understanding of the WORD OF GOD this is perfectly ok. Because he is giving the glory to GOD. Its for the uplifting of GOD. I mean, the beat can be from "BOMBS OVER BAGDAD by Outkast" but if the lyrics is "JESUS IS KING" that is glorifying GOD. Which is good. Just think about the runs you play on the Bass Guitar, do you think that only Gospel bass players have made those runs. No.... R&B, Rap, Rock Bass players play those same runs. So do we say, because he made that run in a secular song we can't do it in a Gospel song? NO... So basically you can duplicate any tune as long as your goal is to Glorify God. I think this was beautiful.
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I have a Pentacostal background and I love it!!!!
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I'm getting ready to start something, not to offend but to demonstrate how denominations can effect the opinions of GOD's People. Here it goes.... I will go out on a limb and say that most of those who oppose this video is from a COGIC/HOLYNESS background. Maybe Pentecostal. Those who are Baptist really don't see it one way are the other. Some will be for it and some will not. Those who are non-denominational without a COGIC/HOLYNESS/PENTECOSRTAL influence will love it. My point is, it is all based on your teachings on how you respond to this video. In my opinion and based off of my understanding of the WORD OF GOD this is perfectly ok. Because he is giving the glory to GOD. Its for the uplifting of GOD. I mean, the beat can be from "BOMBS OVER BAGDAD by Outkast" but if the lyrics is "JESUS IS KING" that is glorifying GOD. Which is good. Just think about the runs you play on the Bass Guitar, do you think that only Gospel bass players have made those runs. No.... R&B, Rap, Rock Bass players play those same runs. So do we say, because he made that run in a secular song we can't do it in a Gospel song? NO... So basically you can duplicate any tune as long as your goal is to Glorify God. I think this was beautiful.
+1, I think doctrine is getting involved versus the word of God. I'm from a holiness background, and if I was still there, I would have clearly said something was wrong with it. But when I got older and started to understand the word with my own understanding and not someone else's own personal view, this music is clearly speaking about the love of God from this bishop in this setting. PHbrown said something that made perfectly good sense, he stated the immediately see these artist praising God with these songs. What I'm noticing with all these secular vs. gospel settings is that people can't get past the artist and listen to the words of the songs. That's where the meaning is. None of these songs spoke about getting your freak on, they simple are love songs to be sung to your loved one. God, is the loved one in this video. So in essence, I'm sure some people take offense to Dave Hollister singing with Hezekiah Walker, or Al Green being in the ministry, or Patte Labelle singing in the ministry.
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... I mean, the beat can be from "BOMBS OVER BAGDAD by Outkast" but if the lyrics is "JESUS IS KING" that is glorifying GOD....
I actually like that song. Just this past weekend, I liked listening to Dear Momma by Tupac for mother's day weekend.
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I'm getting ready to start something, not to offend but to demonstrate how denominations can effect the opinions of GOD's People. Here it goes.... I will go out on a limb and say that most of those who oppose this video is from a COGIC/HOLYNESS background. Maybe Pentecostal. Those who are Baptist really don't see it one way are the other. Some will be for it and some will not. Those who are non-denominational without a COGIC/HOLYNESS/PENTECOSRTAL influence will love it. My point is, it is all based on your teachings on how you respond to this video. In my opinion and based off of my understanding of the WORD OF GOD this is perfectly ok. Because he is giving the glory to GOD. Its for the uplifting of GOD. I mean, the beat can be from "BOMBS OVER BAGDAD by Outkast" but if the lyrics is "JESUS IS KING" that is glorifying GOD. Which is good. Just think about the runs you play on the Bass Guitar, do you think that only Gospel bass players have made those runs. No.... R&B, Rap, Rock Bass players play those same runs. So do we say, because he made that run in a secular song we can't do it in a Gospel song? NO... So basically you can duplicate any tune as long as your goal is to Glorify God. I think this was beautiful.
You may be on to something there. Personally, I am Presbyterian (the Frozen Chosen) but I also play at a Pan African Orthodox Christian Church. Two ends of the spectrum. No wonder I'm schizophrenic. For me it's about the lyrics. If you write Christian lyrics to the tune of "Brick House", I'm on it. But the one song that Bishop Love sang that talked about looking into each others' eyes......when and how does one look into God's eyes? I understand that it is metophorical, but it does have a way of bringing God down to a human level. Change some of the lyrics and I could be on board with some of what Bishop Love was doing, but without changing the lyrics......There's a South Park episode....
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Does anyone have an issue with Kirk Franklin's use of music derived from secular songs? Didn't BeBe and CeCe Winans actually redo I'll Take You There? Was that originally a 'gospel' record? I'm not sure! A lot of churches sing 'Ooh Child' by The Five Stairsteps. Any issues with that? Yah Mo Be There?
Here's my feeling on the subject. A lot of our youth are lost. Churches have a hard time attracting youths. Sometimes you need to draw them in by using music that is familiar to them. I spoke a few years ago how my church has zero youths and that they still sing 18th Century hymals with piano/organ accompanyment only!
In that video, did the minister not change the lyrics and glorify God?
You can only preach to the choir but so much but don't forget those outside the church who need ministering! Otherwise, may as well shut the doors and allow no else in!
Anyway, I didn't have a problem with it. I'm Methodist by the way.
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SMH
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Why in the world do church folk think that the best way to attract the youth is by making the church look/sound like the world? You don't see the club having communion to get the deacons to come out. As long as the church is imitating the world, the church loses.
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Does anyone have an issue with Kirk Franklin's use of music derived from secular songs? Didn't BeBe and CeCe Winans actually redo I'll Take You There? Was that originally a 'gospel' record? I'm not sure! A lot of churches sing 'Ooh Child' by The Five Stairsteps. Any issues with that? Yah Mo Be There?
Here's my feeling on the subject. A lot of our youth are lost. Churches have a hard time attracting youths. Sometimes you need to draw them in by using music that is familiar to them. I spoke a few years ago how my church has zero youths and that they still sing 18th Century hymals with piano/organ accompanyment only!
In that video, did the minister not change the lyrics and glorify God?
You can only preach to the choir but so much but don't forget those outside the church who need ministering! Otherwise, may as well shut the doors and allow no else in!
Anyway, I didn't have a problem with it. I'm Methodist by the way.
+100
My former pastor said something to us youth at the time that has stuck with me for years. She stated, "The principle doesn't change, just to procedure in delivering it does."
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Here is my last thought on the subject: if you don't approve of the video, don't watch it. I don't think the original posted this video to be critical, but to demonstrate that "Jesus makes everything right" I'm so glad that Andre crouch was immune to the criticism he recieved for sounding too secular.
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:D Back to one of my old examples. If God was literally sitting in front of you how would you sing? How would you dance? That should either give you your answer or tell you how you view God.
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"Jesus makes everything right"
Contrary to popular belief Jesus doesn't make EVERYTHING right.
He covers your old sins, he doesn't uphold you in your sin. You ask for forgiveness and he blots it out, he doesn't make the action of sin "RIGHT". He delivers us from sin, he doesn't teach us how to sin correctly.
As far as the whole denominational thing goes, I think we need to set that all aside and look at it one way. Is it truth? If not then move onto the truth.
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Contrary to popular belief Jesus doesn't make EVERYTHING right.
He covers your old sins, he doesn't uphold you in your sin. You ask for forgiveness and he blots it out, he doesn't make the action of sin "RIGHT". He delivers us from sin, he doesn't teach us how to sin correctly.
As far as the whole denominational thing goes, I think we need to set that all aside and look at it one way. Is it truth? If not then move onto the truth.
I'm not sure I agree with that. No offense... Quite the contrary.... I think Jesus does make everything right. Without Jesus, every is wrong.
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I have no words, SMH, I really don't know what to say, I think he has a point it all depends on who you are singing to but still, some people are already on the fence and they would hear that and start listening to secular music just a little bit more until eventually you are listening to secular music 6 days out the week and gospel music for a half-hour before you go to church, so I guess it depends on where you are in your walk! Wow!
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If you have beef with the phrase "Jesus makes everything right" don't take it up with me, take it up with the author:
Thesis Pieces
Looks like it finally came around like the hands of a clock
Praise to Yahweh Nissi
Shout to the Banner—Shabach
This LP is two sided—for the man on the block
And for the flock who thinks keeping God's commandment is hot
On one side we wanna represent Christ to the Culture
Hip-Hop mostly knows Him for making tight little posters
Or a sculpture, but they can't view Him like they're supposed to
'Cause the gospel's never been preached to them like its' supposed to
And the life in Christ has never even looked like an answer
Except for locked up crooks and Big Mas with cancer
So, Ambassador is back to give you his thesis
The greatest need in Hip-Hop is the input of Jesus
[Hook]
It's the thesis we need this
The story in short
Hip-Hop properly submitted to the glorious Lord
It's problematic 'cause
It can be scary to like
But... Jesus makes everything right (2x
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Contrary to popular belief Jesus doesn't make EVERYTHING right.
He covers your old sins, he doesn't uphold you in your sin. You ask for forgiveness and he blots it out, he doesn't make the action of sin "RIGHT". He delivers us from sin, he doesn't teach us how to sin correctly.
As far as the whole denominational thing goes, I think we need to set that all aside and look at it one way. Is it truth? If not then move onto the truth.
Who determines what is truth? I agree with your point about setting denominational stuff aside but the way I look at, these days people determine their own "truth" so therefore what one might see as "truth" someone else might not see it as "truth." I have a problem with that mode of thinking but it's so engrained in this culture it's not even right funny and an issue like we're discussing, IMO falls in this same line.
Traditionally, I've always been on the side that says you shouldn't bring the world in the church, mix the secular with the gospel, but at the same time I almost believe that a lot of gospel music came from the secular world, as far as beats. At the end of the day I tend to believe that the music is not the most important part, but the words and who is getting the glory with the words. From what I consider "gospel" contextually and conceptually speaking, most "gospel" music is inspirational music and inspirational music does not have to be confined to the church or the world.
This is another reason why I'm not as critical of gospel rap/hip-hop because at the end of the day, they use rap/hip hop beats but just talk about Jesus and a lot of slow jams have been rearranged just to talk about Jesus.
Do you all think this topic (as a whole not just this one specifically) falls in the line of "irrelevant small church issues" or are there large implications?
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I'm not sure I agree with that. No offense... Quite the contrary.... I think Jesus does make everything right. Without Jesus, every is wrong.
so then how can sin be right?
There's no black and white. It's either right or wrong, no straddling the fence.
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so then how can sin be right?
There's no black and white. It's either right or wrong, no straddling the fence.
You must be the only one these days that still believe in right and wrong.......lol! ;D :D
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Who determines what is truth?
Jesus - John 14:6
The Holy Spirit - John 16:13
The bible - John 17:17
The ten commandments - Ps. 111:7 (Deut 9:10)
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Who determines what is truth?
John 14:6 (New International Version)
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The word tells us that Jesus is the truth. So how do we know what is the truth? By simply reading and studying the bible we know that there is no middle ground. Either it's about God or it isn't. Now I'd like to state again that I don't believe that all secular music is bad, however the issue here goes back to what is going on in the CHURCH and what the church is for. If you even stand the chance of confusing the saints or compromising your stands the Apostle Paul tells us we SHOULD NOT DO IT.
The fact of the matter is that the church is for TEACHING about God, not bringing up other thoughts in peoples mind about some sins they may have committed while listening to those very songs people are trying to rewrite. we are not here to confuse the saints, so it plain and simple needs to stop. Do you think that the people are oooo and aaahhhhh'ing over God or over their favorite "SLOW JAM" when that beat drops? It's the latter and the stronger saints can get over the initla impression, but those weak saints, well we've just pushed them back 20 feet and that girl/guy sitting next to them in the pew is looking just a little bit TOOO good right now...smh (BTW, I've actually heard and know of people that this has happened to, so i'm not making this up).
Do you all think this topic (as a whole not just this one specifically) falls in the line of "irrelevant small church issues" or are there large implications?
No I don't think this is a small irrelevant small church issues because people are getting LOST in the church from this very thing (not just music either), so it needs to be addressed
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The word tells us that Jesus is the truth. So how do we know what is the truth? By simply reading and studying the bible we know that there is no middle ground. Either it's about God or it isn't. Now I'd like to state again that I don't believe that all secular music is bad, however the issue here goes back to what is going on in the CHURCH and what the church is for. If you even stand the chance of confusing the saints or compromising your stands the Apostle Paul tells us we SHOULD NOT DO IT.
The fact of the matter is that the church is for TEACHING about God, not bringing up other thoughts in peoples mind about some sins they may have committed while listening to those very songs people are trying to rewrite. we are not here to confuse the saints, so it plain and simple needs to stop. Do you think that the people are oooo and aaahhhhh'ing over God or over their favorite "SLOW JAM" when that beat drops? It's the latter and the stronger saints can get over the initla impression, but those weak saints, well we've just pushed them back 20 feet and that girl/guy sitting next to them in the pew is looking just a little bit TOOO good right now...smh (BTW, I've actually heard and know of people that this has happened to, so i'm not making this up).
I feel like this issue goes back to a thread we had in the gospel lounge on if gospel music is "watered." I understand the argument of dealing with this issue but the way I look at it.....idk. I just don't know if it's as big of a deal as it has been made here on LGM over the years. At the end of the day, I still think "souls" have to be the number 1 focus as long as the method doesn't compromise the values God teach in the bible.
So for those who view it as bringing the world in the chruch, what values does secular music teach that go against the word of God? I'm not totally taking a side I just want to understand both sides of the argument before determining which side I agree with.
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Churchyreal, for me I'm leaving out the doctrine that I was brought up to know. I was once told that women should not wear pants in church, nor jewelry, nor finger nail polish. Men had to wear suits, shirts and ties for every service. Everything was told to us, "what you shouldn't do." As I got older, I couldn't find in the bible where women couldn't wear pants, men had to wear suits. I'm comfortable with some slacks and a polo shirt for service. As far as what I'm reading on this thread, I'm understanding that people think its wrong because we are bringing the world into the church, well let's reverse it and take the church outside of the 4 walls and take church into the world. Point blank, instead of saying this can't be said or done in the church. If we are suppose to spread the love of Christ to non-believers, we can't do it only in the church, we have to go out or bring them in. If one non-believer in that service that night was touched by the word of God that he delivered after that introduction, then God's work was not in vain. Bishop Love, used a tool that drew that individual in close enough to want to stay to hear God's word. That's what I think is wrong with the body of Christ today. We are so inclusive, that we run non-believers away. God gives us a choice to live for him or not, he never forces himself upon us, so why do we as Christians want to force doctrines on others and non-believers??
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Churchyreal, for me I'm leaving out the doctrine that I was brought up to know. I was once told that women should not wear pants in church, nor jewelry, nor finger nail polish. Men had to wear suits, shirts and ties for every service. Everything was told to us, "what you shouldn't do." As I got older, I couldn't find in the bible where women couldn't wear pants, men had to wear suits. I'm comfortable with some slacks and a polo shirt for service. As far as what I'm reading on this thread, I'm understanding that people think its wrong because we are bringing the world into the church, well let's reverse it and take the church outside of the 4 walls and take church into the world. Point blank, instead of saying this can't be said or done in the church. If we are suppose to spread the love of Christ to non-believers, we can't do it only in the church, we have to go out or bring them in. If one non-believer in that service that night was touched by the word of God that he delivered after that introduction, then God's work was not in vain. Bishop Love, used a tool that drew that individual in close enough to want to stay to hear God's word. That's what I think is wrong with the body of Christ today. We are so inclusive, that we run non-believers away. God gives us a choice to live for him or not, he never forces himself upon us, so why do we as Christians want to force doctrines on others and non-believers??
And therein lies the problem.....point blank! Jesus told us to GO NOT wait for them to come!
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And therein lies the problem.....point blank! Jesus told us to GO NOT wait for them to come!
:D :D :D
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And therein lies the problem.....point blank! Jesus told us to GO NOT wait for them to come!
Is it working? Not at my home church! I agree with ddwilkins' thoughts! Ministering should not be confined to the 4 walls of the church!
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....As far as what I'm reading on this thread, I'm understanding that people think its wrong because we are bringing the world into the church, well let's reverse it and take the church outside of the 4 walls and take church into the world
I agree that this is what some are saying but it is not the only point of debate. To me it all boils down to "when that song is played, what does it put into your heart?". Because for the most part the lyrics were not changed, the songs that Bishop Love sang took me back to high school. Took me back to the club. Took me back to who I was dating and what concerts I went to when I heard those songs. Now, I recognize that this won't be true for everybody who hears him because a lot of the folks in that congregation weren't even born when some of those songs came out, but for enough of us, it will bring those thoughts. I mentioned "Let It Rain" and "I Will Worship Him At All Times" because even though the beats and the melodies are familiar, the lyrics are different and unmistakenly directed towards God or towards Jesus. While it's true that the lyrics "Always and forever, each moment with you.....is just like a dream to me...that somehow came true" could apply to Jesus or God as easily as they could to my high school sweetheart, the fact that I should even have to discern makes me want to pull back from doing that song with those lyrics in a worship service. Nothing wrong with the lyrics. They could EASILY have been written to describe a relationship with God, but they weren't and my memory cannot erase that.
......Bishop Love, used a tool that drew that individual in close enough to want to stay to hear God's word. That's what I think is wrong with the body of Christ today. We are so inclusive, that we run non-believers away. God gives us a choice to live for him or not, he never forces himself upon us, so why do we as Christians want to force doctrines on others and non-believers??
Yes he did use a very powerful and useful tool. But sometimes tools can be misapplied. I think the overall concept of what he is trying to do is fantastic. I love the idea that contemporary gospel and contemporary christian worship genres bring a groove and a feel to worship service that can be wrapped around a solid message of praise and a solid message of worship. It's just when you take words that were meant for one type of relationship and bend them to represent another type of relationship that I start to see lines blurring. Music is a wonderful tool. Hone it. Refine it. And use it. But just any ol' song won't do.
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So let me challenge something here:
If God values marriage and commitment to one wife/husband, what is wrong with singing love songs in church directed to your mate? Is there anything wrong with having a time in church where couples (married or ones fully committed to each other) show their love and sing songs about love?
Also are we (getting to the bottom line) saying that ANYTHING that does not glorify God or Christ should not in the church........period?
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So let me challenge something here:
If God values marriage and commitment to one wife/husband, what is wrong with singing love songs in church directed to your mate? Is there anything wrong with having a time in church where couples (married or ones fully committed to each other) show their love and sing songs about love?
I would say there is nothing particularly wrong with it, but in the manner that you describe it, what is gained from it? And what do the unattached people in the church do while this is going on, get a headstart on the fellowship hour snacks? <-----joke ;)
Also are we (getting to the bottom line) saying that ANYTHING that does not glorify God or Christ should not in the church........period?
No. There are things that are for the betterment of the church, like setting up guilds to decorate the sanctuary or fellowship hall. There are things that are for the betterment of the community, like setting up youth basketball leagues or tutoring programs. There are things that are for the betterment of individuals and groups in the congregation, like providing scholarships for the youth in the church to go to sumer camps or college. Just a few off the top of my head.
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Yeah I've seen this before...thought it was an interesting way to make a point. I would have played it and enjoyed it... Kirk Franklin (and many others) have made so many songs from R&B that its hiprocracy to try to say this is wrong... if you notice the songs chosen were love songs...
Stevie wonder has clearly proven that if you are a Christian making music, it has positivity and upliftment no matter of the label put on it to sell it.
Browntree
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
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The fact of the matter is that the church is for TEACHING about God, not bringing up other thoughts in peoples mind about some sins they may have committed while listening to those very songs people are trying to rewrite. we are not here to confuse the saints, so it plain and simple needs to stop. Do you think that the people are oooo and aaahhhhh'ing over God or over their favorite "SLOW JAM" when that beat drops? It's the latter and the stronger saints can get over the initla impression, but those weak saints, well we've just pushed them back 20 feet and that girl/guy sitting next to them in the pew is looking just a little bit TOOO good right now...smh (BTW, I've actually heard and know of people that this has happened to, so i'm not making this up).
I agree that this is what some are saying but it is not the only point of debate. To me it all boils down to "when that song is played, what does it put into your heart?". Because for the most part the lyrics were not changed, the songs that Bishop Love sang took me back to high school. Took me back to the club. Took me back to who I was dating and what concerts I went to when I heard those songs. Now, I recognize that this won't be true for everybody who hears him because a lot of the folks in that congregation weren't even born when some of those songs came out, but for enough of us, it will bring those thoughts. I mentioned "Let It Rain" and "I Will Worship Him At All Times" because even though the beats and the melodies are familiar, the lyrics are different and unmistakenly directed towards God or towards Jesus. While it's true that the lyrics "Always and forever, each moment with you.....is just like a dream to me...that somehow came true" could apply to Jesus or God as easily as they could to my high school sweetheart, the fact that I should even have to discern makes me want to pull back from doing that song with those lyrics in a worship service. Nothing wrong with the lyrics. They could EASILY have been written to describe a relationship with God, but they weren't and my memory cannot erase that.
this was exactly my thoughts on the whole thing. secular sounding music is one thing (for that andre crouch reference) and totally ripping a song and trying to tweak words here and there are two different things. The question is always, where does it put the people's minds. Even with gospel songs this happens. For example, when the P&W team sing songs that we normally sing for communion, my mind goes to communion for a bit. Anytime anybody sings "Im going up yonder" my mind goes back to a funeral, because that song is always sang at just about every funeral. Which in either case isnt that bad (although nobody really wants to think about a funeral). So why do people find it odd to think that when CERTAIN (not all) secular songs (or beats) are played, people's minds would reflect on what they associate those songs with? The problem is, the things that they associate and thus reflect upon are almost always the things that they are trying to be free from. So why make it harder? Why cause some weaker ones to go into relapse?
What a lot of folks fail to realize that while certain things may not necessarily be right or wrong for US, they may be for someone else, and being reckless is what makes you wrong. Say you had a friend with a gambling addiction and y'all was going on vacation. While you may find it quite fine, taking a trip to Vegas or Atlantic City may not be the best choice for your friend. So while vacationing in Vegas or AC isnt wrong itself, knowingly subjecting your friend (with his problem) to such temptation is what makes you wrong and reckless!
Everyone isnt on your level. We all need to be mindful of that. There are people above us, and there are people below us, and others right on the same level with us. We need to be mindful of them all.
and call it playing semantics if you want, but Jesus does NOT make EVERYTHING right. Why would any of us need the Holy Spirit to keep us and guide us if all things were not RIGHT once you put Jesus into the picture? "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling"..... but wait, no one can ever fall if everything is now RIGHT through Jesus. Why would anybody need deliverance if we could just believe in Jesus and simply keep doing the same thing because its RIGHT now?
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... Say you had a friend with a gambling addiction and y'all was going on vacation. While you may find it quite fine, taking a trip to Vegas or Atlantic City may not be the best choice for your friend. So while vacationing in Vegas or AC isnt wrong itself, knowingly subjecting your friend (with his problem) to such temptation is what makes you wrong and reckless!
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That's not wrong or reckless on my part if you can't control yourself in this environment. I'm not going to punish myself on behalf of your lack of self control. If that was the case, we all couldn't go anywhere. Temptation is around all day everyday. I've been to Vegas, so I can say that there's more to Vegas than just the casinos. I was there for a whole week, and not once did I spend any money in the casinos. Not because I didn't have the money, it was because I consumed with other sight seeing adventures. See, what I'm noticing is that people are trying to say what others will feel because they themselves feel or associate something with. Because your mind associates a song with going to club, doesn't mean that the next person will, or if you have a bad gambling habit, that going to Vegas is temptation.
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That's not wrong or reckless on my part if you can't control yourself in this environment. I'm not going to punish myself on behalf of your lack of self control. If that was the case, we all couldn't go anywhere. Temptation is around all day everyday. I've been to Vegas, so I can say that there's more to Vegas than just the casinos. I was there for a whole week, and not once did I spend any money in the casinos. Not because I didn't have the money, it was because I consumed with other sight seeing adventures. See, what I'm noticing is that people are trying to say what others will feel because they themselves feel or associate something with. Because your mind associates a song with going to club, doesn't mean that the next person will, or if you have a bad gambling habit, that going to Vegas is temptation.
+1 Im with you on that my man.
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That's not wrong or reckless on my part if you can't control yourself in this environment. I'm not going to punish myself on behalf of your lack of self control. If that was the case, we all couldn't go anywhere. Temptation is around all day everyday. I've been to Vegas, so I can say that there's more to Vegas than just the casinos. I was there for a whole week, and not once did I spend any money in the casinos. Not because I didn't have the money, it was because I consumed with other sight seeing adventures. See, what I'm noticing is that people are trying to say what others will feel because they themselves feel or associate something with. Because your mind associates a song with going to club, doesn't mean that the next person will, or if you have a bad gambling habit, that going to Vegas is temptation.
i think u missed the whole point of the Vegas example. yes YOU know that there's more to Vegas and AC than casinos and other gambling venues and you may be consumed with other things, but for someone with an addiction or the process of recovery, those things he has a problem with will stand out. Same way a dude with lust issues isnt gonna go to a church womens convention and be so focused on talking with the old church mothers who have a lot to teach about the Word and other very interesting topics. You know who he scoping out, and even in a crowded room, they catch his eye easily.
but if you know they cant control and subject them to it anyway, that is irresponsible. whether we want to believe it or not, we do have some accountability for one another, especially if you say you care about them. So how could a pastor not care about his flock? How could we not care about our brothers and sisters in Christ? And you can duck and dodge responsibility for certain actions, but if you are in a position of LEADERSHIP, you are held accountable. But forget the leadership position thing. Whatever happened to looking out for one another?
Music is powerful. People forget that because its enjoyable. But its enjoyable because it is powerful. Music does more often than not invoke nostalgia and memories. And while a song jogging memories about Uncle Fred in the dance contest at the family reunion years ago may be harmless, memories of particular events of a sinful lifestyle that you are trying to come away from is not a good thing.
What it partially comes down to is knowing your audience. Just because something is done in one place without adverse effects, doesnt mean it doesnt have any adverse effects at all. Just because you think about something, doesnt mean you gonna now go out and paint the town red and just abandon God. But if any of you know about spiritual warfare, all it takes is just one point of vulnerability to fall to an attack by the enemy. So while at one church something may be done, the same thing at another may set several people up for a point of weakness. And especially as a pastor, if he/she knows that about their congregation (as they SHOULD), and still do certain things, yes, thats irresponsible and reckless.
What some dont want to admit or come to terms with is that in certain occasions we do have to limit and censor ourselves and what we do for the sake of others who arent as strong as we are. You might not like it, probably hate it, but thats reality. and its not about punishing yourself, its about better judgment. You may just have to do that particular activity either by yourself, or with another group that can handle it. Its worth that if you dont cause someone to stumble.
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So in a congregation of 3000+ members, a pastor or the minister must censor everything that he/she is ministering on the sake of those who are weak? How is this going to be possible? IMHO, one can never overcome past temptations until they are put into those situations without being tempted. Some don't agree with it, but that's just how I feel.
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Some of you keep saying, what comes to mind when you hear those songs. Well what comes to mind when I hear Always & Forever is, my wife that I truly love & want to spend the rest of my life with. When I hear Reunited i think of the time my wife & I broke up while we were dating & got back togehter & it felt so good. Thats when we decided to get married. Love songs have been a very important part of most marriges. They sometimes help you say things that, maybe you can't put into words yourself. Love songs for me was a very powerful tool, in courting my wife. So when we got married in a church, I sung a song called "I Love You", by the Whispers, as she walked towards me down the isle. I still cry every time I hear that song. Maybe some of you brothas met your wifes on friday & married her on saturday, just past up all the stuff in between. It wasn't that easy for most of us. Yeah sometime tools can be misapplied as malthumb stated. But the Bible is our most important tool & it's misused or as malthumb says, misapplied everyday. As a matter of fact the bible is probably the most misused/misapplied tool there is. I believe this pastor used those songs in a very positive way.
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so its our job to tempt one another so we can be stronger? nah, not buying that.
and ur thinking in extremes. there are different levels of censorship. censorship isnt always eliminating everything altogether. but sometimes u do need to avoid until later when its more suitable. same reason why you dont have all kinds of adult conversations in front of children. same thing. which is why if you are a minister or pastor, you need to be called, and be sensitive to what God is telling you.
Have you ever been in a position where you wanted to tell some people about some stuff or expose some things and God said "Not yet"? Sometimes because everyone isnt in a position to receive it yet. And who knows more about Gods people than God? And if God censors what you are to say, do you say "no way God, im gonna say whatever i want to say because i have a big congregation of 3000 members". No, you're censored just the same.
And if it says he'll leave the 99 to get the 1 thats lost, what makes u think he wont have something unsaid for that 1 person? Thats why you need to be in tune with the Spirit. For matters like this, it shouldnt be left up to your own discretion all the time. The same way Pastors and ministers need to be prayed up to be sensitive to such things, we musicians need to be as well, because we are ministers just the same.
But if you've never been in that position, then we cant discuss this any further because you cant relate. Not being mean or harsh, but thats the point of the matter.
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Here is the video. Play it for your wife or fiance. Learn the song & sing it to her, even if you can't hold a note. Men Don't ever think because you are married & saved, you don't have to "WOW" your wifes. Like I said, now every time I hear this song it makes me cry. I'm about to cry right now, just posting it. Whispers- I Love You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZa9NUjvEzw#)
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..... Yeah sometime tools can be misapplied as malthumb stated. But the Bible is our most important tool & it's misused or as malthumb says, misapplied everyday. As a matter of fact the bible is probably the most misused/misapplied tool there is. I believe this pastor used those songs in a very positive way.
This the first time that I've ever heard this and it is the most powerful statement I've heard thus far. +100000000
so its our job to tempt one another so we can be stronger? nah, not buying that.
and ur thinking in extremes. there are different levels of censorship. censorship isnt always eliminating everything altogether. but sometimes u do need to avoid until later when its more suitable. same reason why you dont have all kinds of adult conversations in front of children. same thing. which is why if you are a minister or pastor, you need to be called, and be sensitive to what God is telling you.
Have you ever been in a position where you wanted to tell some people about some stuff or expose some things and God said "Not yet"? Sometimes because everyone isnt in a position to receive it yet. And who knows more about Gods people than God? And if God censors what you are to say, do you say "no way God, im gonna say whatever i want to say because i have a big congregation of 3000 members". No, you're censored just the same.
And if it says he'll leave the 99 to get the 1 thats lost, what makes u think he wont have something unsaid for that 1 person? Thats why you need to be in tune with the Spirit. For matters like this, it shouldnt be left up to your own discretion all the time. The same way Pastors and ministers need to be prayed up to be sensitive to such things, we musicians need to be as well, because we are ministers just the same.
But if you've never been in that position, then we cant discuss this any further because you cant relate. Not being mean or harsh, but thats the point of the matter.
Do you know if this is the "later time?" Umm, no you don't. When is it more suitable to talk about it. That's what bothers me about some Christians, they have to "wait" until its more suitable. If not now, when? This is subjective and honestly, no time is suitable. Obviously, with the responses this thread is recieving, there's always going to be someone who thinks that what is done and said in the church is not suitable. And being censitive to the spirit, I know all about that. I can relate. And BTW, I'm not saying tempt one another. Again, don't put your definition and perspective of temptation on someone else.
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Some of you keep saying, what comes to mind when you hear those songs. Well what comes to mind when I hear Always & Forever is, my wife that I truly love & want to spend the rest of my life with. When I hear Reunited i think of the time my wife & I broke up while we were dating & got back togehter & it felt so good. Thats when we decided to get married. Love songs have been a very important part of most marriges. They sometimes help you say things that, maybe you can't put into words yourself. Love songs for me was a very powerful tool, in courting my wife. So when we got married in a church, I sung a song called "I Love You", by the Whispers, as she walked towards me down the isle. I still cry every time I hear that song. Maybe some of you brothas met your wifes on friday & married her on saturday, just past up all the stuff in between. It wasn't that easy for most of us. Yeah sometime tools can be misapplied as malthumb stated. But the Bible is our most important tool & it's misused or as malthumb says, misapplied everyday. As a matter of fact the bible is probably the most misused/misapplied tool there is. I believe this pastor used those songs in a very positive way.
This
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Do you know if this is the "later time?" Umm, no you don't. When is it more suitable to talk about it. That's what bothers me about some Christians, they have to "wait" until its more suitable. If not now, when? This is subjective and honestly, no time is suitable. Obviously, with the responses this thread is recieving, there's always going to be someone who thinks that what is done and said in the church is not suitable. And being sensitive to the spirit, I know all about that. I can relate. And BTW, I'm not saying tempt one another. Again, don't put your definition and perspective of temptation on someone else.
what im saying is sometimes "when" is not for us to decide. Yes this could have good and well been that "later time" and was either instructed or permitted to move as such. And if thats the case, there will be some that disagree, but they arent in that position to make those decisions. And God will get the results he wanted. But on the same hand it could have not been the right time and he was acting upon his own desire. And any adverse effects he is accountable for.
the thing is just like I dont know, you dont either, none of us do. so we all should stop, ME included, assuming what exactly was the case here.
there will always be someone who thinks something isnt suitable in the church. and sometimes they can be right; sometimes they can be wrong; and sometimes it depends. There are things that are outright never suitable in the church. Then there are some things that are suitable to some churches and not suitable for others, and vice versa. And there are things that are suitable everywhere. And I think here is where we are blurred.
We have trouble putting things into the right category when the content is questionable. We all get that reading the Bible is suitable in every church. We all get that smoking crack is not suitable in any church. But when we get to stuff like this, singing love songs (or rather modifying existing songs, which is the case here), you got people who feel this isnt ok so they put it in the "never ok anywhere" category, and you have people who feel it is okand put it in the "always ok everywhere" category. But is it really so, or is it a case by case basis of where its ok and where its not. And sometimes thats just what it is. And sometimes it is a someone is wrong and someone is right situation. I hardly think this is where we all will come to the same conclusion about what it is.
all i say is we just have to be careful. there's nothing wrong with being careful. nothing at all. nothing to argue about there. hopefully i'll shut up now. lol
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.....But the Bible is our most important tool & it's misused or as malthumb says, misapplied everyday. As a matter of fact the bible is probably the most misused/misapplied tool there is.....
So true.
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This the first time that I've ever heard this and it is the most powerful statement I've heard thus far. +100000000
Do you know if this is the "later time?" Umm, no you don't. When is it more suitable to talk about it. That's what bothers me about some Christians, they have to "wait" until its more suitable. If not now, when? This is subjective and honestly, no time is suitable. Obviously, with the responses this thread is recieving, there's always going to be someone who thinks that what is done and said in the church is not suitable. And being censitive to the spirit, I know all about that. I can relate. And BTW, I'm not saying tempt one another. Again, don't put your definition and perspective of temptation on someone else.
ddwilkins you and I think alot alike. Im telling you, it all has to do with the doctrine you have been taught. The funny thing about it is, many people say one thing but they truly r not living it. They say it only for show. Then they go and do things that r way more detromental to the body of Christ. I have been around 37 years and I have learned the ways of carnel Christians.
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..well I put in my 1 cent here is my 2... why can't the chruch be creative..why when we do movies we have to "sometimes" get fok that don't even know God.....and A.Keys she into that carma stuff...I just don't like tha fact that we have to go to the world... its just like at my church.. I'm ova the sound ministry...with two other brothers "under" me...and what we do.. after service we would play music..(CD's)... int'l artist..local artist..but what get me is when you have these so called gospel rapper doing tha mix tape thing and rappin over JZ or lil wayne.beats.and wonna bring that in the church.. I told them nooooooooo way... take that cd out and throw it away....remember when Jesus turn ova the table...and when he sat them down in groups..and taught the word...but these days is the music thats drawin the people...memba..it was loucifer (devil) that held that office....oh well.. thats more like 4 cent.....
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As we continue this saga, how many are being won to Christ because we keep telling each other how wrong we are. Not once have I heard anyone say the Gospel was not being preached, all I'm hearing is "I don't like your worship music". Seriously? Did the minister offend you that much? Is anyone here even a member of the church where he preaches? I'm even disappointed in myself, because I couldn't resist the urge to comment. ENOUGH ALREADY! Can we get back to talking about becoming better bass players? Please?
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Well I'm not condoning or condemning but if you bust out a known secular song by known secular artist, despite what the lyrics are, you are going to cause controversy. So my thought is why even go there. There are a plethora of "gospel" songs by gospel artist that convey the same message.
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As we continue this saga, how many are being won to Christ because we keep telling each other how wrong we are. Not once have I heard anyone say the Gospel was not being preached, all I'm hearing is "I don't like your worship music". Seriously? Did the minister offend you that much? Is anyone here even a member of the church where he preaches? I'm even disappointed in myself, because I couldn't resist the urge to comment. ENOUGH ALREADY! Can we get back to talking about becoming better bass players? Please?
LOL and that's kind of my thing (even though I did comment). Why can't we focus on the big picture which is souls being saved as long as it does not compromise the basic message of Christ?
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As we continue this saga, how many are being won to Christ because we keep telling each other how wrong we are. Not once have I heard anyone say the Gospel was not being preached, all I'm hearing is "I don't like your worship music". Seriously? Did the minister offend you that much? Is anyone here even a member of the church where he preaches? I'm even disappointed in myself, because I couldn't resist the urge to comment. ENOUGH ALREADY! Can we get back to talking about becoming better bass players? Please?
Because the OP asked the very specific question.....
How many would have played at this service?
I would have.
And posted clips of the song selections for people to comment on. I mean, really it ain't that crucial. Some of us have answered that we would play and some have answered that we wouldn't. Both gave reasons why or why not. I think that the total sum of minds that have been changed by the raging debate is somewhere around "0".
At the end of the day we have a divergence of opinions with decent rationale for each perspective. In that way, this thread mimics life. I listen....I learn...I offer an opinion....I move on.
Peace,
James
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HE is the pastor of THAT church. HE knows HIS people. HE knows HIS house. all we're looking at is a moment in time. We dont(okay, I dont) know nuffin about how the ministry impacts the lives of the locals, or what else happens in that assembly.
May not be right for your house, but your house aint his house.
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In some cases, the philosophy of; "if you don't have to do it, why do it" applies. There are hundreds of ways to get a message across very well while remaining within the boundaries of acceptability for the majority of your people. You can even bend the boundaries severely and still be within them. You just have to think. Since that is true, why go outside of them. Let all in church have a pleasant and spiritual worship experience. If you don't have to do otherwise, why do it? When it is done, does it mean that the person has just "run out" and needs an eye opener?
Most people have a worship mode, and a party mode. The two just don't mix well. (even if the party mode is sitting in a restuarant with one you love, listening to beautiful music and wondering what the evening might bring) You feel funny hearing that same music in church.
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I have no words, SMH, I really don't know what to say, I think he has a point it all depends on who you are singing to but still, some people are already on the fence and they would hear that and start listening to secular music just a little bit more until eventually you are listening to secular music 6 days out the week and gospel music for a half-hour before you go to church, so I guess it depends on where you are in your walk! Wow!
+1
I agree with you Bradley
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*attempting to stir the pot :D *
I just want to summarize the points being debated.
Topic I
A. Some people feel that if the music is praising God it does not matter where it came from. (if it came from a secular source)
B. Some people feel that if the music is praising God it does matter where it came from because of how the music may affect someone. (meaning a song that causes a person to not think about God but to think about something else normally something that is sinful)
Topic II
A. Some people feel that in the end it only matters if they can handle the temptation and if so it is okay
B. Some people feel that in the end you should watch out for your younger brother and sister in christ and make sure they are also able to handle the temptation. (younger meaning not as strong)
Topic III
A. Some people feel that Jesus made everything Right.
B. Some people feel that Jesus did not make everything Right but saved us from Sin.
Topic IV
A. Some people feel that as long as a soul is saved the method of saving that soul does not matter. (The end justify the means)
B. Some people feel that the method matters when it comes to saving a soul. (the end does not justify the means)
Did I miss any major topics?
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*attempting to stir the pot :D *
I just want to summarize the points being debated.
Topic I
A. Some people feel that if the music is praising God it does not matter where it came from. (if it came from a secular source)
B. Some people feel that if the music is praising God it does matter where it came from because of how the music may affect someone. (meaning a song that causes a person to not think about God but to think about something else normally something that is sinful)
Topic II
A. Some people feel that in the end it only matters if they can handle the temptation and if so it is okay
B. Some people feel that in the end you should watch out for your younger brother and sister in christ and make sure they are also able to handle the temptation. (younger meaning not as strong)
Topic III
A. Some people feel that Jesus made everything Right.
B. Some people feel that Jesus did not make everything Right but saved us from Sin.
Topic IV
A. Some people feel that as long as a soul is saved the method of saving that soul does not matter. (The end justify the means)
B. Some people feel that the method matters when it comes to saving a soul. (the end does not justify the means)
Did I miss any major topics?
That's it for the most part.
Maybe Absolutes vs. Relativism......lol! What things are absolute when it comes to issue (if anything) and what issues are subjective or based on individual/groiup? That might fall in the other categories.
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wow...this is a no win debate. Personal convictions will always make issues like this difficult to end in a unanimous agreement. I mean on a more serious note, the Apostle Paul and Barnabas had personal differences on whether John Mark should go on the 2nd missionary journey in Acts. There disagreement didn't determine their salvation. I believe and agree with others who commented that if it offends or causes other believers to fall then don't do it around them. If your not sure of the effects, just watch them and see. If its a whole congregation. I have no answer on how to handle it EVERY time. LOL.
As far as the music goes. The church has been singing secular melodies for centuries. We've just changed the words. There's a song we sing nowadays that goes "Amazing grace shall always be my song of praise..." which is the same song as "Oh Danny Boy..." but no one really argues about that one. Probably because they don't know the original secular song; which is understandable. There are also hymns that we sing out of the hymn book, some written by Martin Luther, a few hundred years ago that were not only secular songs but songs sung in taverns (place where folks got drunk) LOL. It doesn't bother us to sing those songs because we have nothing to associate the song with that would seem ungodly to us.
There is a measure of accountability for all of us but I don't believe this can be resolved by us voicing our personal convictions. Maybe we should look not only at the song but at the intent of the person singing the song. The only problem is that only God will know the true intent. If the intent is just and righteous then the use of the song could work for good.
After all, when I sing songs about forgiveness and grace and mercy I think about the wrong I've done as well. Let's help each other and love each other. I'm sure that an answer exists...I just don't know what it is. Blessings to all.
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As far as the music goes. The church has been singing secular melodies for centuries. We've just changed the words. There's a song we sing nowadays that goes "Amazing grace shall always be my song of praise..." which is the same song as "Oh Danny Boy..." but no one really argues about that one. Probably because they don't know the original secular song; which is understandable. There are also hymns that we sing out of the hymn book, some written by Martin Luther, a few hundred years ago that were not only secular songs but songs sung in taverns (place where folks got drunk) LOL. It doesn't bother us to sing those songs because we have nothing to associate the song with that would seem ungodly to us.
EXACTLY. And that's where you have to be careful. People are singing these love songs/ballads from the last few years. I don't care how nice you make the words, if the music is something that originally learned as a secular song, I'm going straight back there. Every time I hear "Lord" by Trinitee 5 7, my mind immediately goes back to 12th grade prom night. It is our job as music ministers to be sensitive to that. There are plenty of songs that were originally written to the glory of God (or are old enough where NO ONE knows the original secular source to be offended) where we don't have to remake wordly songs to appeal to carnal people so that they can "relate" to our service. God never intended for us to bring people in by showing them the world inside the church. We should them God's standard, they know they can't reach it in and of themselves, and we teach about Jesus and His grace as their means to attain God's high and holy standard.
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EXACTLY. And that's where you have to be careful. People are singing these love songs/ballads from the last few years. I don't care how nice you make the words, if the music is something that originally learned as a secular song, I'm going straight back there. Every time I hear "Lord" by Trinitee 5 7, my mind immediately goes back to 12th grade prom night. It is our job as music ministers to be sensitive to that. There are plenty of songs that were originally written to the glory of God (or are old enough where NO ONE knows the original secular source to be offended)
So what if a regular Gospel song took your mind back to prom night or whatever event in your past, would you be offended?
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fmason we are not in church to reminisce about prom night and that is the whole of the matter.
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Don't blame it on the song. A secular song should not make or break your salvation, I don't care where that song takes you back to. I listen to secular songs almost everyday, from the Stylistics To Van Halen(with Sammy Hagar), just had to point that out, lol. Don't get me wrong, some songs do take you back to your heathen days, but those are times you thank God, for how far you have come. But it wasn't the song, it was "YOU", the songs just helped in your foolishness. Every Thursday night I play in a restaurant/bar & my walk with Christ, is still intact. But there was a time when I went to places like that, I would use the place as my excuse to be a womanizer. Didn't drink or smoke, so my thing was women. I come to realize that it wasn't the place that took me there or the songs they played, it was just rotten old "ME". Cause I would turn around & do the same thing after Sunday morning service. Since I was singer I would take love songs, one particular song was "Chocolate Girl", by the Whispers & I would sing that song to every chocolate girl I came across, using it to draw them in. But yrs later at a family reunion, come to find out the song was about the song writers wife & children. The song writer(Wayne Bell), was my cousin by marriage, he had been married to my mothers neice. So sometimes we can take something innocent & use it in a wicked way.
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... I wish I could play my bass like the bass player on Chocolate girl ... :(
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fmason we are not in church to reminisce about prom night and that is the whole of the matter.
I agree wholeheartedly. That's why secular love songs have no place in a worship service.
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[Stirring the pot a little] We play "Reach Out And Touch Somebody's Hand" as a benediction song. Thoughts?
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[Stirring the pot a little] We play "Reach Out And Touch Somebody's Hand" as a benediction song. Thoughts?
It's always been meant to be an inspirational, if not religious, song. Personally, I think these are appropriate if that's what the church wants to hear. Others in this vein would be...
- Let It Be
- Lean On Me
- What The World Needs Now (Is Love, Sweet Love)
I'm sure there are more...
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It's always been meant to be an inspirational, if not religious, song. Personally, I think these are appropriate if that's what the church wants to hear. Others in this vein would be...
- Let It Be
- Lean On Me
- What The World Needs Now (Is Love, Sweet Love)
I'm sure there are more...
I'll have to agree while I would personally have a song with Jesus in the mix these songs are workable as they don't hint at sinning.
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It's always been meant to be an inspirational, if not religious, song. Personally, I think these are appropriate if that's what the church wants to hear. Others in this vein would be...
- Let It Be
- Lean On Me
- What The World Needs Now (Is Love, Sweet Love)
I'm sure there are more...
What about Caravan of Love?.....LOL! ;D
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Wow ... just noticed this discussion ... let me add two cents ... before I was saved, I listened to Earth, Wind, and Fire everyday and they were singing about "In the Stone", "Sunshine", "Devotion", "Keep Your Head to the Sky" ... I sang all of these and wondered if I was singing to and about my Heavenly Father ... I was, you were ... these songs aren't a bad thing and I don't think the Lord takes most of the discussion here as seriously as some have ... he loves us, and he knows that we're singing out our love for Him when we sing His praises ...
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the problem still lies in that you don't know WHAT you're putting into other listeners spirits by placing it in the church.
It might work for you, but it might not work for others.
Paul states that though some things are lawful he will not do them because it will question his stance. I say we need to do the same thing. If it's questionable then leave it alone. If you have to try and justify it then you probably are too close to straddling the fence.
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the problem still lies in that you don't know WHAT you're putting into other listeners spirits by placing it in the church.
It might work for you, but it might not work for others.
Paul states that though some things are lawful he will not do them because it will question his stance. I say we need to do the same thing. If it's questionable then leave it alone. If you have to try and justify it then you probably are too close to straddling the fence.
However, you can't try and anticipate what every single soul will question. Especially when there are people who will question every thing. Your questionable might be different from my questionable. Some people think its wrong to take tithes. But as the pastor and the head of his church, he can't listen to that type of dessention. In a church that size, there are all kinds of opinions. That man basically turned a song that was sung for the world and sung it for Christ. What a testimony in my opinion..
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However, you can't try and anticipate what every single soul will question. Especially when there are people who will question every thing. Your questionable might be different from my questionable. Some people think its wrong to take tithes. But as the pastor and the head of his church, he can't listen to that type of dessention. In a church that size, there are all kinds of opinions. That man basically turned a song that was sung for the world and sung it for Christ. What a testimony in my opinion..
I agree. If we questioned everything that goes on in the church, nothing would get accomplished. Like my pastor has said many of times, there are people who don't like the fact that whites, blacks, hispanics, and any other race that we have in our congregation, worship together every Sunday and Tuesday. If he stop and questioned why they have those thoughts, we would be doing nothing. Some people don't like that fact that we dress "down" meaning he preaches in jeans and a dress shirt and we come dressed liked that as well on occasions. Is that wrong because we don't dress up in suits and ties every service? Once again, I believe that we need to stop saying what shouldn't bring the world into the church, but we should take the church to the world.
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if it's questionable then you can anticipate. Why is this so hard to understand? And we DO need to question everything that goes on in the church. This is why the bible calls us the church of Laodicia. We are neither hot nor cold, we are luke warm.
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However, you can't try and anticipate what every single soul will question. Especially when there are people who will question every thing. Your questionable might be different from my questionable.
I agree. To many people having a bass guitar and drums in the church is "questionable" and worldly.
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<looks for wooden spoon to stir pot>
dont bring the world into the church, eh?
so i spose all the churches that have B3's in them have an issue, since those organs were made for bars and pubs.
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<looks for wooden spoon to stir pot>
dont bring the world into the church, eh?
so i spose all the churches that have B3's in them have an issue, since those organs were made for bars and pubs.
Hmmmm good argument!
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The minute modern instruments were brought into the church is when the world was also let in! We must stop this Church vs. The World debate! We can do so much more by getting outside the church walls and minister to those who need it! If you just want to preach to the choir within the confines of the church, that's fine but please don't judge those who don't subscribe to your thinking! Only he can judge! Not everyone is easily swayed by the devil! I say tackle him head on!
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The minute modern instruments were brought into the church is when the world was also let in! We must stop this Church vs. The World debate! We can do so much more by getting outside the church walls and minister to those who need it! If you just want to preach to the choir within the confines of the church, that's fine but please don't judge those who don't subscribe to your thinking! Only he can judge! Not everyone is easily swayed by the devil! I say tackle him head on!
We think alike!!! Just for kickers, did people bring the juke joint into the church when they played the washboard? ;D ;D ;D I just had to do it. I'm a fan of Zydeco music. I appreciate almost all forms of music. One last kicker, is it wrong to play raggae music as well? I like Donnie's "I got my mind made up" and "Surely Goodness and Mercy" by Israel Houghton. Both have raggae beats? BTW, Israel opens up his concerts lately with Black Eyed Peas, "I got a feeling." ;D ;D ;D I'm warning people so that they don't miss the message that he is about to bring through song if you ever get the opportunity to experience one of his concerts in the near future.
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The minute modern instruments were brought into the church is when the world was also let in! We must stop this Church vs. The World debate! We can do so much more by getting outside the church walls and minister to those who need it! If you just want to preach to the choir within the confines of the church, that's fine but please don't judge those who don't subscribe to your thinking! Only he can judge! Not everyone is easily swayed by the devil! I say tackle him head on!
We think alike!!! Just for kickers, did people bring the juke joint into the church when they played the washboard? ;D ;D ;D I just had to do it. I'm a fan of Zydeco music. I appreciate almost all forms of music. One last kicker, is it wrong to play raggae music as well? I like Donnie's "I got my mind made up" and "Surely Goodness and Mercy" by Israel Houghton. Both have raggae beats? BTW, Israel opens up his concerts lately with Black Eyed Peas, "I got a feeling." ;D ;D ;D I'm warning people so that they don't miss the message that he is about to bring through song if you ever get the opportunity to experience one of his concerts in the near future.
Good pointers!
if it's questionable then you can anticipate. Why is this so hard to understand? And we DO need to question everything that goes on in the church. This is why the bible calls us the church of Laodicia. We are neither hot nor cold, we are luke warm.
I get your point but idk if I fully agree. I feel like the reason why we are ineffective in society that is becoming increasingly secularized is because we are in church arguing and debating over too many things that are either cultural, subjective or have nothing to do with reaching souls! To me, at the end of the day we should focus on winning souls, discipling one another into the character of Christ, fellowshiping with one another, worshipping God as a reminder who this is about and serving our community. Everything else really doesn't matter as long as the focus is on Christ. Really disturbs me how there are so many arguments and debates over things that really don't matter.
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Good pointers!
I get your point but idk if I fully agree. I feel like the reason why we are ineffective in society that is becoming increasingly secularized is because we are in church arguing and debating over too many things that are either cultural, subjective or have nothing to do with reaching souls! To me, at the end of the day we should focus on winning souls, discipling one another into the character of Christ, fellowshiping with one another, worshipping God as a reminder who this is about and serving our community. Everything else really doesn't matter as long as the focus is on Christ. Really disturbs me how there are so many arguments and debates over things that really don't matter.
+72
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When you think about it real hard you have to consider that just because something doesn't matter to you(any person) does not mean that it doesn't matter at all. Should we not even consider others? If we don't have to, why do we do things that we know matter very much to many. If you are creative, you just simply don't have to sing love songs in church. And that does not even take into consideration posible moral issues.
Since we drink wine at communion, should we bring our own bottles? Of course not. It is bad to say, since you are doing one thing(playing the organ)then it follows that you should do something else along that line but more extreme. Its according to what you're playing, of course.
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Regardless of where you stand on the matter, can you effectively communicate the intended message to the reciever without them being distracted. If so, go for it. As ministers of the gospel, we must be aware of our audience and strategically decide the best way to deliver our message. I probably would not play a tye tribbet song for an audience made of 60-80 year olds. However, I would be tempted to re-write a "I aint mad at cha" song for a prison ministry performance.
Personaly, I dont care for secular songs in church, but I would do it willingly in a heart-beat if I could reach the lost.
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i think this is a "do the ends justify the means" question. and we all have absolutes where we say no and ones where we say yes. Its the subjective stuff where we dont disagree on. We dont agree on some stuff and thats ok. Maybe we are all called to be in different places, which is why we may have different methods.
Just because I put my feet up on the coffee table at my house, doesnt mean I can come to your house and do the same. And rather than trying to debate why i think you're wrong for not letting me do that, why dont i respect it, because it is YOUR house.
I respect everyones opinion here and I do believe there is an acceptable level (the B3 and other modern instruments, even microphones and sound systems, recording equipment, etc, because those are "worldly" too, and if we wanna be technical, letting unsaved folk in your church is worldly as well). But we all just dont agree on where the line is drawn, and we all never will.
In that respect, I agree with Jeremy in that if you gotta say to yourself "am i crossing the line?" its best that you leave it alone. There may be a reason why you are asking that question. And if its right and its something God NEEDS you to do, best believe that God will open up your understanding, and that wont be a question for you any longer.
So just like if playing a song leads someone to Christ and you feel thats right because you brought in a soul, if NOT playing that song brings someone else to Christ, the person that didnt play the song is no LESS right because they brought in a soul too. And we should look at it that way, because some people are drawn to Christ because certain things are present, and some are drawn to Christ because certain things are absent. And if those certain things overlap, then we are going to be in disagreement, but we should follow the path of those we are led to reach.
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Good pointers!
I get your point but idk if I fully agree. I feel like the reason why we are ineffective in society that is becoming increasingly secularized is because we are in church arguing and debating over too many things that are either cultural, subjective or have nothing to do with reaching souls! To me, at the end of the day we should focus on winning souls, discipling one another into the character of Christ, fellowshiping with one another, worshipping God as a reminder who this is about and serving our community. Everything else really doesn't matter as long as the focus is on Christ. Really disturbs me how there are so many arguments and debates over things that really don't matter.
Why would we make the job of savings souls HARDER by constantly reminding people of the sinful acts that the Gospel of Christ tells them they should abstain from? If you don't see how that is counteractive then I don't know what to tell you. And let me tell you, if the person listening isn't focusing on Christ (again bringing up the fact that if you have to think about it then you shouldn't do it) then your point of "as long as the focus is on Christ" is NULL and VOID. The whole concept is if it's QUESTIONABLE and might cause confusion for someone in the pews then DON'T DO IT and well the clips were ALL VERY QUESTIONABLE.
Being a leader in a church isn't about what "YOU" can handle, but thinking about your congregation. We are here to put the focus on CHRIST and not send people into their memory banks to have flash backs and have people daydreaming about how they use to be bumping and grinding in the back of trucks in the park and what not all while wanting to get back there.
Now someone earlier mentioned that pastor knows his church and I HAVE to disagree. Did you see how large that church is? When churches get in the range of 700+ members in ONE service these pastors don't know their entire congregations name, let alone enough about all of them to know if they will be affected negatively by this type of "cross over" music.
The church can win souls without singing QUESTIONABLE Songs and if you feel differently then you haven't been reading the bible I have. Why confuse people on the matter? Keep it Jesus and keep it moving.
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i think this is a "do the ends justify the means" question. and we all have absolutes where we say no and ones where we say yes. Its the subjective stuff where we dont disagree on. We dont agree on some stuff and thats ok. Maybe we are all called to be in different places, which is why we may have different methods.
Just because I put my feet up on the coffee table at my house, doesnt mean I can come to your house and do the same. And rather than trying to debate why i think you're wrong for not letting me do that, why dont i respect it, because it is YOUR house.
I respect everyones opinion here and I do believe there is an acceptable level (the B3 and other modern instruments, even microphones and sound systems, recording equipment, etc, because those are "worldly" too, and if we wanna be technical, letting unsaved folk in your church is worldly as well). But we all just dont agree on where the line is drawn, and we all never will.
In that respect, I agree with Jeremy in that if you gotta say to yourself "am i crossing the line?" its best that you leave it alone. There may be a reason why you are asking that question. And if its right and its something God NEEDS you to do, best believe that God will open up your understanding, and that wont be a question for you any longer.
So just like if playing a song leads someone to Christ and you feel thats right because you brought in a soul, if NOT playing that song brings someone else to Christ, the person that didnt play the song is no LESS right because they brought in a soul too. And we should look at it that way, because some people are drawn to Christ because certain things are present, and some are drawn to Christ because certain things are absent. And if those certain things overlap, then we are going to be in disagreement, but we should follow the path of those we are led to reach.
Kind of what I'm thinking as well.
Why would we make the job of savings souls HARDER by constantly reminding people of the sinful acts that the Gospel of Christ tells them they should abstain from? If you don't see how that is counteractive then I don't know what to tell you. And let me tell you, if the person listening isn't focusing on Christ (again bringing up the fact that if you have to think about it then you shouldn't do it) then your point of "as long as the focus is on Christ" is NULL and VOID. The whole concept is if it's QUESTIONABLE and might cause confusion for someone in the pews then DON'T DO IT and well the clips were ALL VERY QUESTIONABLE.
Being a leader in a church isn't about what "YOU" can handle, but thinking about your congregation. We are here to put the focus on CHRIST and not send people into their memory banks to have flash backs and have people daydreaming about how they use to be bumping and grinding in the back of trucks in the park and what not all while wanting to get back there.
Now someone earlier mentioned that pastor knows his church and I HAVE to disagree. Did you see how large that church is? When churches get in the range of 700+ members in ONE service these pastors don't know their entire congregations name, let alone enough about all of them to know if they will be affected negatively by this type of "cross over" music.
The church can win souls without singing QUESTIONABLE Songs and if you feel differently then you haven't been reading the bible I have. Why confuse people on the matter? Keep it Jesus and keep it moving.
I understanding what you're saying and think you have valid points but I actually think a lot of leaders lead on personal opinion and what appeals to them personally than the collective voice. This might explain why we have so many chiefs and not enough indians.
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Kind of what I'm thinking as well.
I understanding what you're saying and think you have valid points but I actually think a lot of leaders lead on personal opinion and what appeals to them personally than the collective voice. This might explain why we have so many chiefs and not enough indians.
Agreed 100%, however ( you knew that was coming...rofl) I believe in this scenario in which this thread was started I don't see how one could say it's a personal preference. If you are confusing folks then you are not under the leadership of God. The bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:33 that "GOD is not the author of confusion". That's not me speaking out of my personal thoughts, that is THE word, and if we can't go by THE word then everything we do is in vein.
I believe it's time for us to stop ALLOWING stuff out of our personal opinion because "we don't see anything wrong with it" or "I don't think about my gallivanting when I hear that" and rely wholly on the word of God.
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Agreed 100%, however ( you knew that was coming...rofl) I believe in this scenario in which this thread was started I don't see how one could say it's a personal preference. If you are confusing folks then you are not under the leadership of God. The bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:33 that "GOD is not the author of confusion". That's not me speaking out of my personal thoughts, that is THE word, and if we can't go by THE word then everything we do is in vein.
I believe it's time for us to stop ALLOWING stuff out of our personal opinion because "we don't see anything wrong with it" or "I don't think about my gallivanting when I hear that" and rely wholly on the word of God.
We don't even do that.......lol! 8) ::) ;D
We take what we want and use it and everything else and put it to the side...ha!
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Well ... I'd just like to say once again ... I wasn't saved yet, and I listened to Earth, Wind, and Fire and I recognized the Lord in some of those songs ... we all know that being led to the Lord is a good thing ... I heard about him through songs like "Devotion" and I wasn't in a church during any of that time ... I am the "proof in the pudding" that there's a benefit to songs like these ... they can reach folks that might not be reached otherwise ... who's to say that the songs the Minister sang didn't reach someone that very day? ... "Keep Your Head to the Sky" ?, these songs aren't a bad thing and I don't think the Lord takes most of the discussion here as seriously as some have ... he loves us, and he knows that we're singing out our love for Him, however and whenever we sing His praises ...
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Well ... I'd just like to say once again ... I wasn't saved yet, and I listened to Earth, Wind, and Fire and I recognized the Lord in some of those songs ... we all know that being led to the Lord is a good thing ... I heard about him through songs like "Devotion" and I wasn't in a church during any of that time ... I am the "proof in the pudding" that there's a benefit to songs like these ... they can reach folks that might not be reached otherwise ... who's to say that the songs the Minister sang didn't reach someone that very day? ... "Keep Your Head to the Sky" ?, these songs aren't a bad thing and I don't think the Lord takes most of the discussion here as seriously as some have ... he loves us, and he knows that we're singing out our love for Him, however and whenever we sing His praises ...
excellent point and I'm glad you bring it up! And so I'll hit my point again. While you or 95% of the congregation might hear him through those songs, that doesn't account for the other 5% of the congregation that doesn't, so even though the confusion maybe for only 5% of the congregation it's still confusion. You can't operate a church under confusion as God is not the author of confusion, so therefore no matter how small a portion may be confused we must neglect to inject that into said persons at the church.
The world is confusing enough. Anyone and everyone should be able to come into the church and not be confused on such matters. The point isn't that these questionable songs can save 100,000 , but rather that they can possibly help to LOOSE 1. And in God's eye every soul is precious, so why should we start loosing people in church over things that can be EASILY avoided.
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Why would we make the job of savings souls HARDER by constantly reminding people of the sinful acts that the Gospel of Christ tells them they should abstain from? If you don't see how that is counteractive then I don't know what to tell you. And let me tell you, if the person listening isn't focusing on Christ (again bringing up the fact that if you have to think about it then you shouldn't do it) then your point of "as long as the focus is on Christ" is NULL and VOID. The whole concept is if it's QUESTIONABLE and might cause confusion for someone in the pews then DON'T DO IT and well the clips were ALL VERY QUESTIONABLE.
Being a leader in a church isn't about what "YOU" can handle, but thinking about your congregation. We are here to put the focus on CHRIST and not send people into their memory banks to have flash backs and have people daydreaming about how they use to be bumping and grinding in the back of trucks in the park and what not all while wanting to get back there.
Now someone earlier mentioned that pastor knows his church and I HAVE to disagree. Did you see how large that church is? When churches get in the range of 700+ members in ONE service these pastors don't know their entire congregations name, let alone enough about all of them to know if they will be affected negatively by this type of "cross over" music.
The church can win souls without singing QUESTIONABLE Songs and if you feel differently then you haven't been reading the bible I have. Why confuse people on the matter? Keep it Jesus and keep it moving.
Once again... Whats questionable to you may not be questionable to the next person. Case in point...To me that clip was not questionable. It was innovative, thought provoking and moving. Not boring.. Made church exciting. And it gave praise to the Lord Jesus Christ. Just because somebody can't get there dirty past out of there minds while in church should not mean the church can't be creative. In church there are beautiful women wearing all kinds of stuff. Many who are wearing stuff that reminds me of my past. Does that mean we should get rid of all women in church? No we govern ourselves and asked GOD to deliver us from that weakness. If that clip brings back memories, then that person needs deliverance in my opinion. And church is right where they need to be.
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Once again... Whats questionable to you may not be questionable to the next person. Case in point...To me that clip was not questionable. It was innovative, thought provoking and moving. Not boring.. Made church exciting. And it gave praise to the Lord Jesus Christ. Just because somebody can't get there dirty past out of there minds while in church should not mean the church can't be creative. In church there are beautiful women wearing all kinds of stuff. Many who are wearing stuff that reminds me of my past. Does that mean we should get rid of all women in church? No we govern ourselves and asked GOD to deliver us from that weakness. If that clip brings back memories, then that person needs deliverance in my opinion. And church is right where they need to be.
You haven't been reading my responses. It's not about what YOU can handle o think about, it's about EVERYONE.
Now on to your point about what women wear. The bible says in the OLD & NEW TESTATMENT (for those of you who believe that the new testament is only binding)that we are not to wear all kinds of flashy jewels and things to adorn and bring attention to themselves, so yes they SHOULD stop wearing it to church. And in your case as you mentioned there wouldn't be any flash backs to your past. God does and says everything for a reason.
Now for the final point. "If that clip brings back memories then that person needs deliverance". How in heaven can they get deliverance if the church is constantly shoving it down there throat? When they go to church to worship and instead are pushed back a few steps. Again it's not about what YOU think, or what YOU can handle, but it's about the congregation as a whole. People go to church to charge their spiritual tanks, and for those that are in an earlier walk in their christian journey your reasoning makes absolutely no sense.
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Well ... I'd just like to say once again ... I wasn't saved yet, and I listened to Earth, Wind, and Fire and I recognized the Lord in some of those songs ... we all know that being led to the Lord is a good thing ... I heard about him through songs like "Devotion" and I wasn't in a church during any of that time ... I am the "proof in the pudding" that there's a benefit to songs like these ... they can reach folks that might not be reached otherwise ... who's to say that the songs the Minister sang didn't reach someone that very day? ... "Keep Your Head to the Sky" ?, these songs aren't a bad thing and I don't think the Lord takes most of the discussion here as seriously as some have ... he loves us, and he knows that we're singing out our love for Him, however and whenever we sing His praises ...
I'm with you on this one.
excellent point and I'm glad you bring it up! And so I'll hit my point again. While you or 95% of the congregation might hear him through those songs, that doesn't account for the other 5% of the congregation that doesn't, so even though the confusion maybe for only 5% of the congregation it's still confusion. You can't operate a church under confusion as God is not the author of confusion, so therefore no matter how small a portion may be confused we must neglect to inject that into said persons at the church.
The world is confusing enough. Anyone and everyone should be able to come into the church and not be confused on such matters. The point isn't that these questionable songs can save 100,000 , but rather that they can possibly help to LOOSE 1. And in God's eye every soul is precious, so why should we start loosing people in church over things that can be EASILY avoided.
J, we all know that God isn't the author of confusion. Like I've stated in previous posts and like Floaded said in another, the method and delivery of the message of God was different in this situation. Every "secular" long song does not make people think about sex. Let's just be real, I think this is what the underlying theme of some of these posts I'm reading. It's about love, that's it. If the only song a sinner new was Alicia Keys, "some people want it all...." versus Kirk's "Silver or Gold," then his example is perfect in its delivery. We shouldn't expect people to know scripture, doctrine, gospel songs when they are new converts. So what you are saying, is nothing but confusion to them. They don't have the understanding as we do. My 5 month old son doesn't act the way my 4 year old does, because he's not at his level of maturity. Like you said, every soul in God's eye precious and we must not loose people in church over things that can easily be avoided, with this, "this shouldn't be done in the church" attitude towards everyone, looses souls. I've seen it with my own eyes and heard from people who aren't in church or don't want to be saved. They say, its more so the people in the church that are turning them away with their own beliefs and actions versus not wanting the hear the word of God.
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I'm with you on this one.
Every "secular" long song does not make people think about sex. Let's just be real, I think this is what the underlying theme of some of these posts I'm reading. It's about love, that's it.
The whole point is that these songs CAN make someone think about any ungodly thought. It doesn't have to be sex it could be sitting back smoking a joint or whatever. If these songs were associate with "free minded" folks or "liberal" folks then we have a problem.
The bottom line is that you don't know what EVERYONE is thinking so why do it. That's what makes it questionable. Those songs don't make me think about sinning, however I know that they are QUESTIONABLE which is why it has no room in the church.
For the record I like the original versions of these songs :o :o lol
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The whole point is that these songs CAN make someone think about any ungodly thought. It doesn't have to be sex it could be sitting back smoking a joint or whatever. If these songs were associate with "free minded" folks or "liberal" folks then we have a problem.
The bottom line is that you don't know what EVERYONE is thinking so why do it. That's what makes it questionable. Those songs don't make me think about sinning, however I know that they are QUESTIONABLE which is why it has no room in the church.
For the record I like the original versions of these songs :o :o lol
I think I will just agree to dis-agree. God Bless you my Brother in Christ. God bless all participants in this discussion.