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Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: StooB on June 07, 2011, 06:59:59 AM

Title: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on June 07, 2011, 06:59:59 AM
This is something I have been puzzling over for a long time... Coming from a predominantly white congregational-contemporary praise & worship background, most of the songs I play are in white keys  ;)  but so many of the gospel songs I hear and love to play are in flats (Ab, Bb), why is this??

Playing in flats is so much more complicated than straight keys, is this just to seperate the good musicians from the bad??  Or is it a black/white thing ;D
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: phbrown on June 07, 2011, 08:32:49 AM
Or is it a black/white thing ;D

ROFL!!!
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on June 07, 2011, 09:51:09 AM
ROFL!!!
;D
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: under13 on June 07, 2011, 09:57:32 AM
Playing in flats on the piano/organ feels sooooo much better than playing in most of white keys. 
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: MykeMyke on June 07, 2011, 10:19:12 AM
Doesn't make much difference to us bass players... Unless u want to play open strings  ;D :D

But u can tune to flats or detune during the song to get that feel...
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on June 07, 2011, 11:14:16 AM
Playing in flats on the piano/organ feels sooooo much better than playing in most of white keys.

I'm guessing that's probably the reason, as a lot of songs are written on the piano/organ?
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: betnich on June 07, 2011, 11:43:36 AM
Or is it a black/white thing ;D

Most keys are integrated - except for C Major...
;)
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on June 07, 2011, 03:37:32 PM
lol  :D
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: phbrown on June 07, 2011, 03:47:43 PM
ROFL
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: BassbyGrace on June 07, 2011, 04:06:02 PM
This is something I have been puzzling over for a long time... Coming from a predominantly white congregational-contemporary praise & worship background, most of the songs I play are in white keys  ;)  but so many of the gospel songs I hear and love to play are in flats (Ab, Bb), why is this??

Playing in flats is so much more complicated than straight keys, is this just to seperate the good musicians from the bad??  Or is it a black/white thing ;D

I know it was a joke, but Im going to admit, in my 35 yrs Ive lived and played in 5 diff states and overseas.  I swear throughout my life Ive noticed that more white ppl play in white keys and black ppl play in black keys.  If I figure out some way to stat it up and analyze it, I'll have my dissertation already done LOLOL.  I dont know why it is, but its just what Ive observed.
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: fbates on June 07, 2011, 07:19:29 PM
My hypothesis...

White keys or the "natural ear" keys B E A D G C sound brighter, and have a more "formal" happier sound. (Think Israel's Again I Say Rejoice or You Are Good)  Also many songs were written to be played on the guitar which is tuned in E A D G B E.

Black keys are jazzier, darker, funkier.  The jazz and blues blackground of the Black Gospel sound definitely plays a lot into this...They allow for more use of chromatics during improvisation.  Also many of the old Negro spirituals were sung in black keys.  I think they are naturally more natural to us...well the sound is... 8)

and well, they are easier to play on the keys/organ  ;)


This would definitely be a great thesis for someone in Music Theory...seriously.  I would do the study for mine but I'm a chemist lol
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on June 07, 2011, 08:18:42 PM
I know it was a joke...

Well I did put a humorous angle to it, but like you I have noticed that many black gospel songs are written in flats, being written on an organ or piano is a logical reasoning and as fbates has said, black keys add a bluesier & jazzy tone which allow for more feel. Lots of black gospel bass tutorials I have seen are also played in flats which I rarely see in praise & worship songs.

In my experience, the majority of white guys (me included) tend to play more straight and safe, where black players take more risks and push the boundaries in music. I am constantly amazed & inspired at all the gospel players I see on youtube not only with their skills but with their feel, drummers & bassists especially. Gospel bassists are some of the best musicians out there. I'm learning loads.
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: floaded27 on June 07, 2011, 09:33:38 PM
how could black keys create a jazzier feel? as a bass player i can play the same exact thing in any key and have it sound exactly the same. it has to do with the player and playing style, not the fact that there are black keys involved.

The jazz and blues blackground of the Black Gospel sound definitely plays a lot into this...They allow for more use of chromatics during improvisation.  Also many of the old Negro spirituals were sung in black keys.  I think they are naturally more natural to us...well the sound is...

this is why the black keys "sound jazzier/funkier". also someone pointed out that for all the negro spirituals, the melody can be played using only the black keys. that might have some significance of WHY they picked those notes, but further observation would show that the black keys only form either of 2 scales,
F# major pentatonic
or Eb minor pentatonic
and we all know that the major and minor pentatonic scales are the most simple, fundamental and commonly used scales (simply a shell of the major and natural minor scales) in western music.

often time, any music thats guitar based is in (CCM often is) is in natural keys, because the nature of the instrument (chording and open strings) lends itself to being easier for people in those keys. Piano or organ (contemporary gospel) tends to be in flat keys because players tend to find these keys easier. Remember everything in Funk music was in the key of E back in the 70s for the simple fact that the bass player had to slap that low open string (his lowest note) which was an E on a 4 string bass tuned standard. I've come across a lot of orchestra songs that were in C, because Concert C is easiest to transpose for other instruments like Bb and Eb sax and a lot of the other woodwind instruments.

The problem with this is that if you stick to a particular style, you will most likely be stronger in certain keys. Many shun other styles simply because it challenges them in their weaker keys, but others welcome it to make them more well rounded. A side effect (well for me anyway) is that your style of play isnt universal in all keys since depending on the key, ur playing a different style of music.

Not a black/white thing. Just a big coincidence. who wouldve thought.

Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on June 07, 2011, 10:36:20 PM
Mmmm, the mystery returns...  :-*
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: BassbyGrace on June 07, 2011, 11:31:17 PM
The problem with this is that if you stick to a particular style, you will most likely be stronger in certain keys. Many shun other styles simply because it challenges them in their weaker keys, but others welcome it to make them more well rounded. A side effect (well for me anyway) is that your style of play isnt universal in all keys since depending on the key, ur playing a different style of music.

Not a black/white thing. Just a big coincidence. who wouldve thought.

Thats not necessarily true.  Understand Ive played in almost every type of band you can think of from German fest, to rock, to symphonic, to gospel.  All of the literature alternates in different keys.  Only MAYBE jazz and gospel could possibly be an exception and lean more towards specific keys.  I mean Ive asked hundreds of ppl personally, different instrumentalists, including many that can play in all keys, which is partly why it trips me out.  Their preference matches what I stated earlier.  Its not my opinion, it was theirs.  I think it maybe a little more than coincidence.  Ive also done some on reading vs improv (and some band directors have agreed) but thats another subject. :)
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on June 08, 2011, 03:06:31 AM
how could black keys create a jazzier feel? as a bass player i can play the same exact thing in any key and have it sound exactly the same. it has to do with the player and playing style, not the fact that there are black keys involved.

Of course you are right there, I wasn't thinking properly as Bb sounds exactly like A except a semi-tone up. But my experience and BassbyGrace's comment is true that a lot of black gospel is in flats and contemporary praise & worship is in straight keys as CCM songs are mostly guitar based, although I would never write a song on the piano in a flat key as they are harder to play for most musicians.

I was thinking if you play mosly black keys it really is more asian than jazzy:  Remember the  Bb Bb Bb Ab Ab Gb Gb Ab chinese song on the piano?!!  :P
But playing in a flat key, it definately is a black thing.  ;D
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: phbrown on June 08, 2011, 11:34:47 AM
But playing in a flat key, it definately is a black thing.  ;D

Nice Pun Sir
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: Elsie8687 on June 08, 2011, 11:36:54 AM
I frequent a number of bass forums, and this may be one of the strangest threads I've ever seen
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on June 08, 2011, 12:48:49 PM
I frequent a number of bass forums, and this may be one of the strangest threads I've ever seen

But interesting nevertheless!  ;D
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: BassbyGrace on June 08, 2011, 03:51:12 PM
I bet ppl are going to start inquiring now LOLOL!
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: floaded27 on June 08, 2011, 04:00:20 PM
Thats not necessarily true.  Understand Ive played in almost every type of band you can think of from German fest, to rock, to symphonic, to gospel.  All of the literature alternates in different keys.  Only MAYBE jazz and gospel could possibly be an exception and lean more towards specific keys.  I mean Ive asked hundreds of ppl personally, different instrumentalists, including many that can play in all keys, which is partly why it trips me out.  Their preference matches what I stated earlier.  Its not my opinion, it was theirs.  I think it maybe a little more than coincidence.  Ive also done some on reading vs improv (and some band directors have agreed) but thats another subject. :)

I kinda meant Gospel styles vs other styles of music. But then on the same note i dont think other styles do modulations as much as Gospel. But then in some songs, modulation is a side thought, since most of the time it happens in a vamp and doesnt stay there long. But what i meant is, if you play gospel only and dont intentionally change the keys of songs, you'll be playing in C# or Ab 75% of the time. The rest of the time is F#, Eb and Bb. But if you think about traditional gospel music, just about every song was a 1-4-5 progression or the like. It was always about simplicity (for whatever reason).

But some people intentionally vary the music to be more well rounded. I've played with people that intentionally do medleys with all the songs in different keys. Its challenging, but it helps you grow. some are scared of that.


I frequent a number of bass forums, and this may be one of the strangest threads I've ever seen
But interesting nevertheless!  ;D

things like this come around on here from time to time. stuff that makes u think.
way, way more interesting than whats the best bass or who's the best bass player.

I was thinking if you play mosly black keys it really is more asian than jazzy:  Remember the  Bb Bb Bb Ab Ab Gb Gb Ab chinese song on the piano?!!  :P
now take that a half step down. all white keys. all of the chinese flavor. lol

But playing in a flat key, it definately is a black thing.  ;D

touche.
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: berbie on June 09, 2011, 06:59:36 AM
I had considered this for a period of time and had determined in my mind that the flat keys, either because of environment(what you heard growing up) or because of some natural prevalent voice range, fit black voices or black musical preferences better. There's nothing wrong with that. To me, the black keys are more difficult to play, although I like to hear people sing in those keys.
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: elio on June 09, 2011, 04:06:14 PM
Also, keep in mind that many CCM songs are composed on acoustic guitar, hence the keys of E, A, D, G, ....
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: 6stringapprentice on June 09, 2011, 04:18:08 PM
My guess would be it probably has to do with the layout of the piano. Maybe through the years pianist found that it was easier to play the chords and progressions that are prevalent in gospel in non natural keys and became a trend.
(http://planetsmilies.net/confused-smiley-17432.gif) (http://planetsmilies.net)
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: Fingers! on August 02, 2011, 01:40:55 PM
I bet ppl are going to start inquiring now LOLOL!

You're right about that.  Well, here's my thought:

I am somewhat aware that most horns and stuff of that nature are designed in flat keys.  Considering that jazz was predominant from the early 1900s to the 60s and 70s, the horn players, like Parker, Miles and Trane, and big band leaders, like Duke, Count Basie, Calloway, and McShann, were writing their music for who…their horn players. 

So you have players like Maceo, who grew up in that era, went straight from being a premier player/music writer for James Brown (a major foundation of funk music) to become a premier player/writer for somebody like George Clinton (P-Funk).  Just like Herbie Hancock (grew up in that same jazz era).  He play piano but he was hired by Miles, a horn player, and played to the fit the style of Miles. 

So, by the mid-80s, we got rid of the horn players but we did not get rid of their grid.  It is ingrained into us, we were born into it.  When we were born, this is what was happening around us in our environment.   

Just about all black music comes from this ‘jazz’ pot.  This is where our ear comes from, our flavor, our style – everything.  Everything that we are playing, writing, listening to, are based off the same platform as the horn players in the past – minus the horns. 

I’m sure somebody thinks this is stupid but it’s “Just my opinion…”
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: kenlacam on August 04, 2011, 08:00:52 AM
how could black keys create a jazzier feel? as a bass player i can play the same exact thing in any key and have it sound exactly the same. it has to do with the player and playing style, not the fact that there are black keys involved.

this is why the black keys "sound jazzier/funkier". also someone pointed out that for all the negro spirituals, the melody can be played using only the black keys. that might have some significance of WHY they picked those notes, but further observation would show that the black keys only form either of 2 scales,
F# major pentatonic
or Eb minor pentatonic
and we all know that the major and minor pentatonic scales are the most simple, fundamental and commonly used scales (simply a shell of the major and natural minor scales) in western music.

often time, any music thats guitar based is in (CCM often is) is in natural keys, because the nature of the instrument (chording and open strings) lends itself to being easier for people in those keys. Piano or organ (contemporary gospel) tends to be in flat keys because players tend to find these keys easier. Remember everything in Funk music was in the key of E back in the 70s for the simple fact that the bass player had to slap that low open string (his lowest note) which was an E on a 4 string bass tuned standard. I've come across a lot of orchestra songs that were in C, because Concert C is easiest to transpose for other instruments like Bb and Eb sax and a lot of the other woodwind instruments.

The problem with this is that if you stick to a particular style, you will most likely be stronger in certain keys. Many shun other styles simply because it challenges them in their weaker keys, but others welcome it to make them more well rounded. A side effect (well for me anyway) is that your style of play isnt universal in all keys since depending on the key, ur playing a different style of music.

Not a black/white thing. Just a big coincidence. who wouldve thought.
Well said! ;D
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on August 04, 2011, 03:36:46 PM
Floaded does tend to bring some soberiety to these forums...   :)
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: phbrown on August 04, 2011, 09:59:22 PM
Floaded does tend to bring some soberiety to these forums...   :)

*nods in agreement*
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: floaded27 on August 05, 2011, 11:49:02 AM
thanks. i was always inspired by my music mentor, who could have an entire conversation with me about music, not mention keys or notes or how to play this or that particular song, and when i go back to practice, my playing has opened up so much. its the intricate knowledge and understanding about music, not just how to play particular songs, that make us better musicians. so i seek that, and what i know i share. but trust me, i've learned a WHOLE LOT from you guys here on LGM.

(although sometimes i wonder if people start to get annoyed or think im trying to be a know-it-all when i comment a lot)
Title: Re: Why are so many gospel songs played in b's?
Post by: StooB on August 05, 2011, 03:06:02 PM
(although sometimes i wonder if people start to get annoyed or think im trying to be a know-it-all when i comment a lot)

We've all got a lot to learn from each other. It's more blessed to give than recieve, so if we all give what we know, we'll all be getting better  :)