What is it about music and money?

[playhear]

 
A gospel musician may feel as though his payment is watching people receive God’s presence. People working secular jobs seldom receive such payment.

.....and what a payment and feeling.  It feels soooooo gooooood when the Holy Spirit takes over the service and people just get blessed from their head to the toes.  It's worth more than anything in this world to be a part of that.  I love to see the Ministers of Music get swallowed by the Power of God and then transfer that to the congregation through their instruments.  Wow!  Thank you Jesus.  I worship you Father!!!!

See? I think that's the root of the reason right there for the scrutiny. How many times does that happen in a secular job? No amount of money could buy that feeling.

(I still think church musicians should be paid nicely though.)

[4hisglory]

When I say “secular music”, I’m not even thinking about 50 Cent or Lil Jon. I’m thinking about Herbie Hancock. On the other hand, 50 Cent is exactly what comes to mind for some people when the word “secular” comes up. These threads have been all about people taking a faulty assumption and using perfectly sound logic to arrive at a completely irrelevant response.

I think that playhear brings up a very good point here.  When I think say secular music, I am not thinking of those type guys either.

[fenderjazz]

To answer that specific question, musicians receive more scrutiny because it's such a fulfilling profession compared to others. Many musicians here are all but pissed off at the thought of taking money for playing for the church.

   I totally agree with you Playhear but would you agree that anyone who has a career based on their own particular talent feels just as fulfilled as we do with music?  If so, why do we musicians get the brunt of the scrutiny? For instance, I'm an artist as well as a musician and I make my living in both fields. Doing art is just as fulfilling for me as music. However, I've never heard anyone say I should only draw and paint to the glory of God but I've heard these kind of statements about music as far back as I can remember. What's really going on :?:  

[freddyfusion]

is ANYONE feeling me on my post on the first page about if musicians should get paid - it is not if you pay it is the character.
anyone??????

[playhear]

I totally agree with you Playhear but would you agree that anyone who has a career based on their own particular talent feels just as fulfilled as we do with music?

Naw, it's just not the same bro. I'm an attorney because I feel like this is where God has called me. This legal industry is just nothing like being a creative artist or musician, man. The legal industry is filled with snakes and gators all over the place. I try to stay true to the reason I got into this field in the first place. I seldom experience the types of things that musicians talk about. I'm also a part-time musician. So, I get a glimpse of how fulfilling being a musician is. I thank God for the talent and blessings he’s given me. However, the industries are just not comparable.

If so, why do we musicians get the brunt of the scrutiny? For instance, I'm an artist as well as a musician and I make my living in both fields. Doing art is just as fulfilling for me as music. However, I've never heard anyone say I should only draw and paint to the glory of God but I've heard these kind of statements about music as far back as I can remember. What's really going on :?:  

The art analogy throws in a good point. My guess is that if you were up in the middle of service painting this wonderful masterpiece of the congregation, Christians would be scrutinizing your art career as well. However, your artwork is not in the front and center and moving people like your fills on the drums (or other instrument).

I'm not an artist. However, I imagine that making art for a living has a lot to do with creating things from the heart. In law and other similar professions, the heart has nothing to do with what you’re doing most of the time. A lawyer has to deal with many uncontrollable evil forces, such as nasty opposing counsel, racist judges and gold digging divorcees. Hey, somebody has to do it. Many clients that I take on a pro bono basis don’t even appreciate the free services I’m giving them. So, again, with painting, you’re talking about a different beast.

[DESQ]

The fundamental answer to your question is that music is arguably the most powerful force on Earth.  Music goes directly to your soul and can change your emotions, i.e. we're all familiar with the story of David playing his harp for Saul who had a vexing spirit within.  For us athletes on this board, don't you use music to get you pumped up to play.   Don't people play music to get in the "mood" with their significant others (who should be their WIVES :lol:  :lol: )  Rarely is there a movie or commercial devoid of music.  

As Christians we understand that music sets the atmosphere for worship and can literally usher in God's presence and get the audience ready to hear and accept the Word.  That is why Christian musicians are under such heavy scrutiny b/c we are deemed to have this understanding of the importance of music yet how can we not realize why Satan would have us use this very talent to propogate an anti-Christian message.  

Here's where people will part company with me and I'll probably be accused of being "too deep."  However, this was a process and I still struggle with it.  

Some would argue that any form of music that does not have as its emphasis the spreading of the good news of Jesus Christ (gospel) or magnifying God and His Spirit is unacceptable.  I will say that music even w/o words carries spirits and those of us that recognize this realize that we have to be careful what we lend our musical talents to.  Satan attacks in degrees and realizes that we all see 50 cents and Usher as potraying a downright "evil" message [far end of the spectrum] but that some will see Kenny G and Herbie Hancock [mostly instrumentalists] as innocuous or harmless.  

I believe in "Gospel" or spiritual jazz, meaning a bunch of saved musicians putting out what would be categorized as a jazz project b/c the music fits that genre or form.  But playing jazz for the sake of jazz behind an artist such as a Miles Davis (who was often high or drunk in writing his music)  What spirit was leading him to create his music?  The spirit of the author follows the music.  [we are wrestling against spirits and principalities] Do I recognize that it would it be an honor to be called by Miles, of course?  He was a MUSICAL GENIUS.  And I would talk to him and try to convert him in a godly and loving fashion during the interview and audition.  I just would not lend my musical talent to his music if chosen.  

BTW, I am not imposing this view on anyone or criticizing anyone so don't get me wrong.  Again, I'm just trying to bring a higher level of thought and discussion to the topic.

God Bless.

[playhear]

DESQ,

I'm not sure if I agree, but I get your point. I have a question for you. Do you think a blind listener would be able to identify the evil "spirit" in Miles Davis's music without knowledge of Miles’ background?

I think the evil spirit you’re suggesting is an afterthought based on your knowledge of Miles’ background. However, note that you started your post by talking about the fundamentals and the basics of music. In my opinion, the fundamental music coming out of Miles’ trumpet is pure and straight from God. Miles Davis is a shining example of how God can use ungodly people as a vessel for sending His music. God does things that our most brilliant minds can’t even imagine.

[fenderjazz]

But playing jazz for the sake of jazz behind an artist such as a Miles Davis (who was often high or drunk in writing his music)  What spirit was leading him to create his music?  The spirit of the author follows the music.  [we are wrestling against spirits and principalities]

You made a very insightful post with many valid points, but for the sake of a good discussion let me throw this in the pot:

Throughout the years some of the best gospel music has been written by drug users and homosexuals. 8O (It hurts me to say it)  Many times we sing these same songs in our churches and the annointing is high and people get blessed through these songs. We run, shout, dance and all that good stuff. So how much does the spirit of the author actually follow the music? What's the difference in playing a jazz tune written by a drug addict and hymn written by a homosexual? (I'm not trying to throw off on anyone)

[playhear]

Throughout the years some of the best gospel music has been written by drug users and homosexuals. 8O (It hurts me to say it)  Many times we sing these same songs in our churches and the annointing is high and people get blessed through these songs. We run, shout, dance and all that good stuff. So how much does the spirit of the author actually follow the music? What's the difference in playing a jazz tune written by a drug addict and hymn written by a homosexual? (I'm not trying to throw off on anyone)

Yeah, God has a cruel sense of humor. We think we have Him figured out. We don't know anything.

[DESQ]

playhear wrote the following:

DESQ,

I'm not sure if I agree, but I get your point. I have a question for you. Do you think a blind listener would be able to identify the evil "spirit" in Miles Davis's music without knowledge of Miles’ background?

I think the evil spirit you’re suggesting is an afterthought based on your knowledge of Miles’ background. However, note that you started your post by talking about the fundamentals and the basics of music. In my opinion, the fundamental music coming out of Miles’ trumpet is pure and straight from God. Miles Davis is a shining example of how God can use ungodly people as a vessel for sending His music. God does things that our most brilliant minds can’t even imagine.

My response:

I will never put God in a box b/c he is WAY beyond my intellectual abilities and can do whatever, whenever being the Sovereign One.  Nevertheless, with that being said, God will not violate his own Word.  

I believe the answer to your question is yes.  Miles truly had GOD-given talent.  That's evident and beyond dispute.  We all recognize that it is God that gives talent, not Satan.  Whatever talent we have is from GOD.  But are we using the talent to bring glory to God?  

I will try to give a parallel and hope it fits.  God created the heavens and the earth, etc. etc.  At the end of the creation God saw that everything he had created was good.  Satan came along and through tempation brought corruption to what God had created to magnify God alone.  Satan is anti-God and did not want God to receive his proper glory.  The same with Miles' talent.  He was born with a God-given talent that was meant to magnify and lift up the Most High only.  However, because of Satan, Miles' talent became corrupted and the spirit of corruption infiltrated Mile's music, which while good and pleasing to the natural ear, is unpleasing to the spirit man and God.  Thus, if the spirit is wrong or "evil" can what proceedeth from that spirit be righteous.

Yes, the bible states in Psalms "let everything that hath breath praise the Lord" and sets forth the various instruments that we can use to praise God.  But Jesus augmented this statement in the New Testament (John 4:23) that true worshippers must worship God in spirit and in truth.    

Remember, Jesus rebuked Peter who had a right reason to protect Jesus at all costs from his suffering and death but a wrong spirit b/c it was in opposition to God's plan.  (Matt 16:  21-23).  Also, recall the Spirit had just recently came over Peter and he proclaimed Jesus the Christ (Matt 16:13-20).  So the spirit controlling Peter had changed.  

So I believe that the spirit of the vessel creating the music follows the music which is evident and obvious when words accompany the music, but may not be evident when it is just an instrumental.  Hope this makes sense.

BTW, I thank playhear for allowing me to share my opinion without ridiculing me and resorting to name calling.  I wish all discussions on this board would be this way.  God Bless you playhear.

[DESQ]

fenderjazz,

I agree with your thought.  Let me add, hopefully without wavering, that Paul stated that there are those who preach the Gospel for spite, in other words for the wrong reasons, but God will still get the glory.  There is a difference between a fallen person creating music to glorify God and one creating music to just glorify the flesh even though both musical talents come from God.  A person can receive deliverance through a crackhead or homosexual preacher b/c the Word will not fail b/c of the vessel.  God will not allow this to happen.  There are some scriptures I vaguely recall but I do not have time to list them now.  

Anyways, this is just my humble opinion (with some scriptural backing next time) and I pray that God gets the glory in this discussion.  No one truly knows the mind of the Lord, "are ways are not his ways."  But I believe what I just stated has a grain of truth and is correct (at least I hope :wink: )

[playhear]

DESQ,

I have thoroughly read you post, which is duly supported by scripture. I think the basic point you’re trying to make is that instrumentals, such as a Miles masterpiece, is perhaps the most deceptive way for Satan to influence us. That’s a novel point. However, I still have to respectfully disagree with your point in regards to Miles Davis and similar artists.

I can’t honestly say that a blind listener would be able to listen to a Miles masterpiece and identify an evil spirit. I really would like to agree with you because it would clear up a lot of issues in my head. However, I just can’t after listening to some of Miles’ masterpieces.

I’m not talking only about Miles’ god-given talent. I’m talking about what Miles is actually playing as well. Miles is nothing more than a vessel for God’s music. That’s it. It’s an uncomfortable concept for me to grasp because I ask myself why doesn’t God talk only through his followers. I have accepted the idea that God can use ungodly people to talk directly to us. That’s where we differ I guess.

This discussion is so interesting that perhaps it’s worthy of careful treatment in a published book. Do you think many people would buy it?

[sugabear]

Whooooaaaa!!! This is a deep thought provoking post. Let me try and add my thoughts to this post. I think the reason the musical profession is so scrutinized when it comes to Christians being a part of it is because today's culture is heavily influenced by music, to be more specific Hiphop and R&B, and when it comes to those particular genres 95% of the message is corrupt. I wouldn't say that this type of music is anymore corrupt than any other profession, but it's what dominates our media, be it television, radio, movies, and things of that sort. So, when it comes to musicians playing secular music, forget about all the diverse paths that you can take in secular music, what comes to the majority's mind is what's dominant in our culture, R&B and Hiphop, as well as other genres I can't think of. I agree somewhat with what DESQ is saying, but do you think that just as Miles Davis' music, intentionally or unintentionally, could dispatch spirits to his listeners, that hypocritical gospel artist who don't live the life could dispatch the same demonic forces regardless of what's being sung (a particular phrase comes to mind-- Strange Fire)?

[JFunky]

Let's get something straight here.  When God gives a person a gift, being a talent of some sort, he does not take it back.  It's a promise.  A preacher who is in sin and has a special gift from God of healing, can heal another person through His mercy unless that person knows that the preacher is in sin and he knows he is wrong.  You guys are talking about evil spirits moving even through instrumental music;  It doesn't matter if a person is blind or not, if that person is connected to God, He will let you know what is behind the music.  If the person is not connected to God and what I mean is living in the spirit and looking at things through the spirit, they are blind and just see it as instrumental music.  The flesh does not get along with things of the spirit and the spirit does not get along with things of the flesh.  Here's a simple example:  does your body like to pray and read the Bible? No.  When you start praying you tend to get tired and sleepy, right?  What I'm trying to say is that the flesh cannot see or hear the things of the spirit.  If you're in tune with the Holy Spirit, he will let you know what is behind a musician even if the person is blind in the sense that he didn't know who Miles Davis was. I'm not going to go on and say that Miles is the Devil but everyone knows that he struggled with demons and possesions of demonic force.  I'm not going to lie to you, it's true.

[JFunky]

I agree somewhat with what DESQ is saying, but do you think that just as Miles Davis' music, intentionally or unintentionally, could dispatch spirits to his listeners, that hypocritical gospel artist who don't live the life could dispatch the same demonic forces regardless of what's being sung (a particular phrase comes to mind-- Strange Fire)?

Sugarbear, absolutley.  I have seen many Praise & Worship singers and musicians that sing and play wonderful but there is NO annointing and NO POWER whatsoever in the music they are playing or singing.  The reason may be that they are either in adultery, fornication, or just have an evil root of anger towards a person and what they are doing is transferring all of that to the congregation. It becomes a struggle to get the congregation to a worship mode because what's being transferred is not what they are singing or playing.  This is the catch, they think no one knows but God has special people in the church that know.  They know because God either has revealed it to them on the spot or he has given them a dream or something but they know.  There are people in churches that are quiet and say nothing but you know that they are truly filled with the Holy Spirit and are in tune with God and are seeing and hearing everything with their spiritual eyes and ears.  You know what those people do?  Pray.  They pray for God to have mercy upon those who are not right before the Lord.  Kirk Franklin once said on an interview that he struggled with porn.  No one knew.  He had a lot of Gospel Hits.  Here's the difference; God was working with him and cleaning him up because no one is perfect.  He says no one knew.  I say that the right people knew but instead of telling the church, they prayed and God did a miracle in His life.  His annointing is greater now.  If you don't believe me, watch the Rebirth of Kirk Franklin DVD.

[JFunky]

I don't mean to get off the main topic but I do want to answer what some of you guys are asking.  Read this and apply it to your life as a Christian and as a Gospel Minister.  

                     Romans Chapter 8 verses 5 - 10

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.


Be encouraged and I pray that our music is transferring life, peace, love, joy and happiness to others  through the Spirit that dwells in us :!:  

[fenderjazz]

I'm not as well-versed in scripture as some of you probably are so maybe someone can help me understand this. I know that music can change the way people feel and I know the story about David playing for Saul. Do good or evil spirits literally travel through music? Is there a scriptoral reference for this? I kinda think that the benefit or harm of different types of music is not that a spirit is literally riding the sound waves but that the music causes our minds to focus and entertain certain thoughts good or bad.

[playhear]

Do good or evil spirits literally travel through music?

I would say no.

I'm thinking about posting some instrumentals and asking people if they can identify which tracks allegedly have the evil spirits. Do you think that's a good idea?

[JoyCH]

I don't see an issue with musicians' getting paid to play in church. If you went to school and practiced for 1000's of hours why wouldn't you be paid? Do you go to work and work for free?

If you want to play for a church for free (and that's whats in your heart) then do it!  Follow you heart.

I don't understand why people label Christians to be free hearted weak people who give all they got and leave with nothing. If you call a contractor to put an addition on the church will he put it up for free?

The bibles says, "The man who doesn't work, doesn't eat."

Joy

[JFunky]

I'm not as well-versed in scripture as some of you probably are so maybe someone can help me understand this. I know that music can change the way people feel and I know the story about David playing for Saul. Do good or evil spirits literally travel through music? Is there a scriptoral reference for this? I kinda think that the benefit or harm of different types of music is not that a spirit is literally riding the sound waves but that the music causes our minds to focus and entertain certain thoughts good or bad.

You've asked a very good question. Let's see now...... let's say the song David played was "Total Praise".  Let's say that their was another musician there that played that very same song for Saul but he did not have the annointing and was not filled with the power of God.  Do you think that Saul would've been at ease after the other musician played? No.  See, when you are in tune with God you are in tune with the Holy Spirit.  Therefore, the Holy Spirit takes your talent and uses it to edify and minister to Saul or the people.  You fill me. Stay with me on this.  It is important for a musician of God to live the life of a true Worshiper because God gives you Heavenly Notes that minister to people through music.  Satan has corrupt music. You have to remember that Satan was a Praise & Worship Leader when he was in Heaven. It's true.  That's why he uses music to confuse and distract and capture people's mind, body and soul.  I said on another post that Satan is not in hell but he was casted into the atmosphere. Does he use soundwaves? Yes.  You see it all around you. It is up to us to enter that other dimension of Spirituality to see with the eyes of the Spirit what is behind a musician and his music.  Is it pure or is it not?  There is also music that is just that.  Music.  There's music that makes your rejoice and celebrate.  Nothing wrong with that. Now, if a musician is making music to let's say, glorify Satan and try to lure you into a trap, that's where the Holy Spirit would let you know for a fact.   Yes it's true, Satan also has his praise & worship leaders.