How much theory??

[diverse379]

there is a lot to be said for this last statement

because it is a known fact that some people have perfect pitch and those that do tend to be better musicians

those that dont have to compensate utilize something else to even out the playing field.

So I will not argue with that at all

[BBoy]

I am with Sis jt3n.

As a people, we have fallen too long for this lie "You don't have to know. It will be alright, just get up there and do it."

We have fallen for that lie over and over, not just with music but with the Word.

The Bible clearly says "My people perish for lack of knowledge."

As Sis Jt3n clearly stated, some of the best gospel music and gospel music secrets die with the musicians, because they either refused to share it or didn't know how to explain what they were doing.  So then the next generation comes along and has to start from square one . . . and it is all SO UNNECESSARY, if only we would learn . . . .

This is my response to people who say it is not necessary to learn how to read music, theory, etc.

You may be able to play anything you hear. That's great. But not being able to read music is like being able to talk and repeat anything you hear, but you can't read a book or a newspaper. You are only limited to the input your recieve around you, and you will never be able to stretch out and be your own musician. When you can read books, you can learn from anyone you choose. When you can read music, you can learn from anyone you choose.

Think about it.

Be Blessed 

[jonesl78]

I think that their should be a balance between both. Theory is very important but I have to be honest; Whenever I have to read sheet music, I feel so trapped. I remember taking classes in undergrad and just feeling like I could not express myself musically. This is probably the man reason why I like jazz so much because jazz has lots of improv. But don't get me wrong. Everyone should know as much theory as they can. I find it very useful in communicating with other musicians.

[diverse379]

be aware that reading music is a skill in istself but it is not necessarily the type of theory we are talking about.

sight reading is a component of theory but in order to sight read you dont need to know anymore then the location of the notes on the staff and the board

you dont need to know a c hord from a g chord a minor from a major as long as you can play what you see

if you can read a lead sheet with chord symbols you are now using more theory because you are doing chord construction

if you reharmonize a lead sheet you are using even more theory because you are now making chord substirutions etc

if you improvise a new melody over those chord changes you are using a combination of theory and ear or just ear or just theory.

If you develop a new set of chord changes over a melody you are composing and could and probably are using both ear and some theory.

The thing is when I was in school for music my teachers could not do what we do in the gospel music field.

the on the spot improv

and I have seen some monster jazz cats play second rate changes over gospel songs

its a matter of taste cliches and choices

So When I speak about using your ear I guess what i am saying is that no theory will dimosnstrate or lead you to the cutting edge stuff people like melvin or hez or
smokie

let me change that you would have to dig very very deep to find what they are doing

This is what I have done

I learned how to construct all types of chords by name and number

I learned what scales went with wht chords I learned the various methiods of harmonization and

I learned rhythmic and poly rhythmic theory

I practriced my basic progressions and then

I began to get sheet music song books and I worked my changes and when I did not like how they sounded I used the voicing from the book

But in order to get that struff into my playing you have to transpose it and willfully try to apply it in other  contexts

I have John Novellos contemporary keyboardist and without a doubt it is packed with information probably more then I would ever use.

Barry harris teaches a totally unique method of theory

but Isnt what is important ther peerformance?

I have read many of you speak about the proliferation of gospel and techniques dying with the musicians

But Have any of you thought that that was their anointing that God gave them for his purpose

and that he has different annointings for each of us that seek

There is much of what I do on sunday that goes beyond anything theoretical

sometimes it is the simplest of things that will bring people to their feet in worship and prase

Dont get me wrong learn what you can and that includes using your ear too

because a lot of what we do is ear on sunday mornings

Practice doing what you will be doing the way you will be doing it

[Naz-Jaz]

WOW! Great dicussion.  I think that you should learn as much as possible about anything you do, and do as much of whatever you trying to improve on as possible, whether it's music or tiddly-winks.  The more you know the better off you are and the more you do something the easier it becomes. So, theory, eartraining, performance, practicing, devotion, all of those things are needed to make you better. Someoine mentioned balance. This probably is most important.  If you concentrate on eartraing and don't ever try to imitate what you've heard, what good was the eartraing? And if you know alot of theory but have no creativity, your playing may not have any 'iife' and may become very predictible and uninspiring. Then again it's all THEORY and not LAW. There really is no right or wrong. 
Also, to comment on jt3n1's college experience.  I also went through similar experiences with professors not giving gospel music or the artist who create/perform it the credit it/they deserve.  These people are just ignorant. The same theory, for the most part, that J. S. Bach used to write and governed his tonal centers is the same theory we use today.  Also, it is a well known fact that Bach was one of the greatest improvisors of his time and all great MUSICIANS prior to and since then must be able to improvise. Figured bass sound familiar?
Anyway, back to the original question, "How much theory?" In my opinion, you can never have enough. But that goes for anything else that could possibly help you imrove your craft.

[T-Block]

Figured bass sound familiar?

Oh yes, that is very familiar to me.  That's all we did in college theory.

[bishopcole]

Oh yes, that is very familiar to me.  That's all we did in college theory.

YES INDEED YES!!!!  Bishop Cole

[Dtuned]

all our lives we're told to color within the lines..

who drew the lines in the first place?

knowledge in music is like knowledge in the WORD.. you can never say you know all there is to know..

get what you can to get going and the God do the rest, use your talents God has given you to glorify HIM.. then let God help you in knowledge both in prayer for understanding HIS WORD and also to build upon the gifts HE has given you..

rob

[sjonathan02]

all our lives we're told to color within the lines..

who drew the lines in the first place?

knowledge in music is like knowledge in the WORD.. you can never say you know all there is to know..

get what you can to get going and the God do the rest, use your talents God has given you to glorify HIM.. then let God help you in knowledge both in prayer for understanding HIS WORD and also to build upon the gifts HE has given you..

rob

 ???

[diverse379]

I fell Dtuned on what He is saying it seems that nobody is leaving any room for GOd to just be God And do what he wants with you and your playing which is really his because it is for his glory

It seems that the more you learn the less you will depend on him and the harder it will be for him to operate through you I will be honest some of my best playing happened when I had no idea what I was playing or doing

stuff just came out

Thee is a verse in the Bible that

says with the Holy spirit you needeth no teacher

In other words the Holy spirit is the best teacher 

If you ask Butch Heyward he will tell you the same thing

[sjonathan02]

says with the Holy spirit you needeth no teacher

Where does it say this in the Bible?

[diverse379]

I believe it is John 2:27
also see John 14:26 and luke 12:11

but john 2:27 is really what I think I was referring to

I didnt actually quote it correctily but the intent is the same

if the holy spirit abide in you you have no need for any teacher

when it comes to music ministry I believe this applies whole heartedly

Why do I still seek teachers then?

because I am still afflicted with a spirit of unbelief

my belief has not yet over come my unbelief

[sjonathan02]

I believe it is John 2:27
also see John 14:26 and luke 12:11

but john 2:27 is really what I think I was referring to

I didnt actually quote it correctily but the intent is the same

if the holy spirit abide in you you have no need for any teacher

when it comes to music ministry I believe this applies whole heartedly

Why do I still seek teachers then?

because I am still afflicted with a spirit of unbelief

my belief has not yet over come my unbelief

But, the Holy Spirit will not only teach me all things, but remind me of the things that were said to me. How else could they have been said to me but by a teacher (or in the Biblical sense, THE Teacher, which is Jesus Christ).

So, I still maintain that we all need a teacher of some kind to guide and direct us AND the Holy Spirit will bring out of us what He (God) has put in us.

Anyway......

[diverse379]

I shoud have never paraphrased
here is the scripture

 the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things,
and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you,
you shall abide in him.
I John


Na mean?

[jlewis]

Well I'll tell you what, the sweetest cat that I ever heard play did not know a lick of theory.  His ear was remarkable and his chord structure was crazy. I NEEDED theory just to be able to keep up with him.

But I agree with Diverse ( to a degree). You definitely have to put in your time on your instrument. The more time you put in the more you will discover, and the more you will be able to do. I believe in theory because it gives you an effective means to communicate what you do and allows you to be able to repeat  it over and over again.

But if you lknow all the chord symbols but can't duplicate them  "in time" then what is it worth. if you have all the videos and the books but you don't sit over that board and play those licks ( over and over and over and over and over) untill they become 2nd nature, then you just have a nice educational library.

I don't knock theory because it is what allows me to take a concept and apply it immediately, but believe you me, if I didn't have the dexterity and coordination to be able to  hit those notes "in time" then what good would knowing the concept be.

I guess it boils down to you have to build upon a  foundation,  many people want to sound phat, but they have trouble playing 3 note triads and a bass line.  You got to be able to to master the triads before moving to the polychords.

And the way you master the basics is practice practice practice.

I look at some of the chords I play, then I go and look at a piece of music by Richard Smallwood ( Holy thou art God).  Man most of the stuff he is playing in the song is 2 note intervals.  And Richard smallwood is a beast on the keys. I guess as you get better the beauty of simplicity really comes to life.   

enough rambling

jlewis

[diverse379]

Very well said Jlewis I think if you look at all the comments on this thread you will notice that there is truth in what everyone said

I believe it boils down to an individual thing

people like Ben Tankard who never took a lesson just sat down and worshipped God on the piano now he is a recording artist literally

others need to learn theory in order to keep up

some learn theory to enhance what they already know

some people learned theory and it boxes them in

some play be ear and are beasts and no theory cat can touch them

some play by ear and the suck

Some trust in the Holy spirit and they play annointed like Butch Heyward or Charles minor

some trust in themselves and they sound annointed too


Notice I said sound

some theory cats are annointed
some ear only cats are annointed

some combination cats are annointed

some are just annoying

So what does it boil down to.

I believe if you are doing this For God First pray for annointing you pray for his Holy spirit

then you need to as others have said should familiarize yourself with the basics of music but at the same time you need to watch how you grow

If you are someone who needs to know the how and the why if you are a visual learner or auditory or kinesthetic

all of this makes a difference

there is no one set answer for everyone theory always came after the playing the playing came first then people try to figure out how they did it
Either you need to break it down or you have big ears and you can hear every thing

I studied with Melvin and he has perfect pitch he can play classical music like he went to Juliard why
big ears annointing both?

Now if you were not blessed with this gift theory and proper instruction can help you get to where melvin is and others like him

but if you are also gifted but not very studious then theory can bog you down

if you are very inquisitve then theory can set you free

but nobody can sit here and say yay or nay
I wil stand that what ever you do keep a balance
and that theory will never take the place of really learning your instrument
and that if the holy spirit Abides in you then you need no teacher


All in all no two people are the same

and no one way is going to be the right path for everybody

[musallio]

I did a post about a guy I met in a guitar center.  He said he was gifted to play.  I told him I'm beginning and I'm practicing my scales, progressions, etc.  When I mentioned a "7-3-6-2-5-1" he said: "I don't even know what that is" 

    

And homeboy was SICK!!!  I'd mention a song off the top of my head, and tell him what key to play it in and he'd play it INSTANTLY.  Then he'd say: "Or I could play it like this" then he'd play it totally different and it sounded TIGHT.

I said all that to say this.......Imagine how good he'd be if he knew the theory behind what he was playing? 

Don't kill yourself with theory.  The short answer to the question in this thread is:
Learn enough that you can know the What, When, and Why aspects of playing

I always like bringing up "controversial" issues..not for the sake of controversy, but for the sake of awareness...

I find this to be the best answer.

It helps a great deal to know the most basic theory..It saves time to say the least & it gives one the power to choose what they explore with.

With the necessary theory (unless if you are really really gifted with a great ear), you will achieve so much more sooner.

This is clearly evidenced by the contrast we see in the greats of yesteryear & today:

It took yesteryear's greats many many years to get to the level of greats..Compare that to today's minstrels & you can see the decrease in the time it has taken them to reach that "great" status--particularly those who have been exposed to some type of music training (in all genres of music).

On a personal note..I also started off without any musical knowledge. I figured out a number of songs, but I was very restricted because I was in the dark.
Now equipped with my knowledge, I can pretty much go to the board with innumerable executable ideas.

Ear + brain = fantastic synergy.

ps:

*just a thought*
It is understandable for some1 without theory to desist learning to play in all keys..because it's like they are lost in a  foreign maze, with only their ear as the light...it will take time before they see the patterns.
But it is laziness for some1 with adequate theory to resist that opportunity because they have been given a map + they have the light..

[Docdb04]

I have to say that one should learn as much theory as possible.  You should also train your ear, to play by ear.  The two go hand in hand.  I learned a lot of things by listening, but I understood what I heard from the theory that I have learned.  Theory opens a lot of secret doors, that people may not tell you about.  I'll give you an example.  The Lord has allowed me give a music workshop at my church.  It is the first time for this body.  I am teaching all of our musicians and our choirs some basic theory.  Even though, I am not a drummer, nor do I play the clarinet; the theory for the most part is the same across the board (As far as notation, timing, etc).  Now I would have never been able to do such a thing, if I just played by ear.  The theory that I have learned, has allowed me to understand other areas of the art.  I say learn as much theory as possible, because it is the foundation of the music.  As long as you have good foundation, your creativity can be endless. 

Now I must say, I heard some cats play and I wonder how much theory they have learned.  Simply, because the run that this dude just played, wasn't in the books that taught me.  I just credited to the fact that he has a creative mind, if he didn't learn from a book. 

I leave you with this.  To me, it is like building a house.  As long as you know how to lay the foundation, you can build any house you want.  A lot people want to build a nice stylish house, but never learn how to lay down the foundation. 

God Bless. 

[musallio]

I have to say that one should learn as much theory as possible.  You should also train your ear, to play by ear.  The two go hand in hand.  I learned a lot of things by listening, but I understood what I heard from the theory that I have learned.  Theory opens a lot of secret doors, that people may not tell you about.  I'll give you an example.  The Lord has allowed me give a music workshop at my church.  It is the first time for this body.  I am teaching all of our musicians and our choirs some basic theory.  Even though, I am not a drummer, nor do I play the clarinet; the theory for the most part is the same across the board (As far as notation, timing, etc).  Now I would have never been able to do such a thing, if I just played by ear.  The theory that I have learned, has allowed me to understand other areas of the art.  I say learn as much theory as possible, because it is the foundation of the music.  As long as you have good foundation, your creativity can be endless. 

Now I must say, I heard some cats play and I wonder how much theory they have learned.  Simply, because the run that this dude just played, wasn't in the books that taught me.  I just credited to the fact that he has a creative mind, if he didn't learn from a book. 

I leave you with this.  To me, it is like building a house.  As long as you know how to lay the foundation, you can build any house you want.  A lot people want to build a nice stylish house, but never learn how to lay down the foundation. 

God Bless. 

Well said Doc

[Fenix]

I have to say that one should learn as much theory as possible.  You should also train your ear, to play by ear.  The two go hand in hand.  I learned a lot of things by listening, but I understood what I heard from the theory that I have learned.  Theory opens a lot of secret doors, that people may not tell you about.  I'll give you an example.  The Lord has allowed me give a music workshop at my church.  It is the first time for this body.  I am teaching all of our musicians and our choirs some basic theory.  Even though, I am not a drummer, nor do I play the clarinet; the theory for the most part is the same across the board (As far as notation, timing, etc).  Now I would have never been able to do such a thing, if I just played by ear.  The theory that I have learned, has allowed me to understand other areas of the art.  I say learn as much theory as possible, because it is the foundation of the music.  As long as you have good foundation, your creativity can be endless. 

Now I must say, I heard some cats play and I wonder how much theory they have learned.  Simply, because the run that this dude just played, wasn't in the books that taught me.  I just credited to the fact that he has a creative mind, if he didn't learn from a book. 

I leave you with this.  To me, it is like building a house.  As long as you know how to lay the foundation, you can build any house you want.  A lot people want to build a nice stylish house, but never learn how to lay down the foundation. 

God Bless. 

This is absolutely true. Theory WILL open up doors for you.

For instance, when i hear a chord progression, i can already pick up what chords to use and how to voice them based on the theory i know. I don't know how cats who have no theory do it. How do you hear a dom 9 chord (or any other chord for that matter) and know how to form it when you have no theory.