T-block...this one is for you...(anyone can feel free to answer)

[T-Block]

It still sounds like the key of F to me though.  Maybe I'm just hearing it wrong or something.

[bongcai]

I said it cuz that's I how I felt about it when I first played it.  I didn't mean it don't make sense at all, it just didn't make any sense to me at the time.  Sorry if I came off being offensive or rude.  I was just trying to understand where he was coming from.  I am still learning so when I hear something that sounds kinda akward, it takes me a while to really understand the reasoning of playing it. 

Now, I think I'm starting to catch on to what he was talking about.  I try to keep music as simple as possible, so it take me a while to simplify things that seem complex at first.  I'm not really into substitutions and doing a whole lot of runs yet.  I just keep it simple for now.  I still got time and room left to grow.

It's all good now!!!  Thanks for the pep talk rjthakid.  And thank you bongcai for your contribution to this thread. 

Your welcome, T-Block.

[bongcai]

It still sounds like the key of F to me though.  Maybe I'm just hearing it wrong or something.

Maybe if you put a 6m before the 5-1-4, It will makes more sense to you.

So

In the key of C

LH/RH

A/GBCE
G/FABbD
C/GBbCE
F/EAC

[T-Block]

Maybe if you put a 6m before the 5-1-4, It will makes more sense to you.

So

In the key of C

LH/RH

A/GBCE
G/FABbD
C/GBbCE
F/EAC

Yeah, o.k. that's C right there.  I hear it now bongcai, I gotcha now!!!

[rjthakid]

I said it cuz that's I how I felt about it when I first played it.  I didn't mean it don't make sense at all, it just didn't make any sense to me at the time.  Sorry if I came off being offensive or rude.  I was just trying to understand where he was coming from.  I am still learning so when I hear something that sounds kinda akward, it takes me a while to really understand the reasoning of playing it. 

Now, I think I'm starting to catch on to what he was talking about.  I try to keep music as simple as possible, so it take me a while to simplify things that seem complex at first.  I'm not really into substitutions and doing a whole lot of runs yet.  I just keep it simple for now.  I still got time and room left to grow.

It's all good now!!!  Thanks for the pep talk rjthakid.  And thank you bongcai for your contribution to this thread. 

It's all love man!      

[SupremeSaltine]

Maybe if you put a 6m before the 5-1-4, It will makes more sense to you.

So

In the key of C

LH/RH

A/GBCE
G/FABbD
C/GBbCE
F/EAC

That is a 2-5-1 in F.

The tritone sub is used on the dominant (five) chord.

G/F A Bb D     2 chord
Gb/E Bb C E   5 chord  (this is the tritone sub--Gb has been Subbed for C)
F/E A C           1 chord

If this was in C, the G chord would be a dominant 7th chord instead of a minor 7th.

[bongcai]

That is a 2-5-1 in F.

The tritone sub is used on the dominant (five) chord.

G/F A Bb D     2 chord
Gb/E Bb C E   5 chord  (this is the tritone sub--Gb has been Subbed for C)
F/E A C           1 chord

If this was in C, the G chord would be a dominant 7th chord instead of a minor 7th.

But the chord that I'm substituting is the 1 dominant 7th, not the 5 minor 7th

LH/RH

A/GBCE
G/FABbD <------- I'm not substituting this key
C/GBbCE  <------ I'm substituting this key, and this is a dominant 7th chord when play in C.
F/EAC

2-5-1 in F is basically a 5-1-4 in C. I guess the best way to see it is by playing it in song.

Do you know that song by Christ of the Nation called "when you think about the Lord".
It is using that progression, it is basically 1-7-3-6-5-1-4  in the beginning part of the song.

Or the first part of that old christmast song "we are the reason that he gave his life".
It is using that progression too.

It is usually used for slow type song.

I don't think those 2 songs played in C, but the progression 5-1-4 is being used there.

Try it and let me know what you think.

[SupremeSaltine]

I think you're right and I know the progession you're talking about.

In this case the C chord you're talking about becomes a "secondary dominant" -- in that it becomes the V chord in the key of F.  Musicians (especially jazz musicians) just always refer to that progression as a ii-V-I (2-5-1) because it is so prevalent.  Take the Coltrane tune "Central Park West".  The first few bars go:

C#-7   F#7     Bmaj7           2-5-1 in B

E-7     A7         D maj7          2-5-1 in D

Bb-7   Eb7      Abmaj7          2-5-1 in Ab

G-7     C7        Fmaj7            2-5-1 in F

Rather than say the progression is 2-5-1-4-6-3 etc, we say 2-5-1 in B, 2-5-1 in D and so on.

We're just arguing terminology and technically you are right because the song you're talking about never fully modulates to F and stays there.  That progression is still a 2-5-1 in F regardless of the key of the song.

Not attempting to usurp Mr Block's position, just adding to the discussion.

[T-Block]

Wow, it looks like a whole gang of music theory experts are helping out in this forum.  Thank you all for you contributing your knowledge to help us become better musicians!!!

[bongcai]

I think you're right and I know the progession you're talking about.

In this case the C chord you're talking about becomes a "secondary dominant" -- in that it becomes the V chord in the key of F.  Musicians (especially jazz musicians) just always refer to that progression as a ii-V-I (2-5-1) because it is so prevalent.  Take the Coltrane tune "Central Park West".  The first few bars go:

C#-7   F#7     Bmaj7           2-5-1 in B

E-7     A7         D maj7          2-5-1 in D

Bb-7   Eb7      Abmaj7          2-5-1 in Ab

G-7     C7        Fmaj7            2-5-1 in F

Rather than say the progression is 2-5-1-4-6-3 etc, we say 2-5-1 in B, 2-5-1 in D and so on.

We're just arguing terminology and technically you are right because the song you're talking about never fully modulates to F and stays there.  That progression is still a 2-5-1 in F regardless of the key of the song.

Not attempting to usurp Mr Block's position, just adding to the discussion.

I think you're right too. I guess you don't see those 5minor7 chord and 1dom7 in the key of C ... as you already know the Bb is not exist in the C scale, however it is exist in the F scale, that's why you keep saying it's 2-5-1 in F.