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Author Topic: 2-5-1 Question  (Read 3541 times)

Offline Eggs

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2-5-1 Question
« on: April 29, 2004, 11:04:27 AM »
Hi,

Let's say I'm working in the key of Bb major.  Let's also say that I need to harmonize a melody note that is the second scale degree, or C major.

I've heard that it's a good idea to keep the note on top, and harmonize the second scale degree in this case with either a ii minor (C major, first inversion) or, lets say a V7 (F7, root position).

Question:  When I play the C melody note with an F7 chord, am I playing the "5" of the "2-5-1" progression, or am I still playing the "2"?

My guess is I'm playing the "5". :?:

Offline sbinf

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2004, 12:51:05 PM »
When you say F7 do you mean F-A-C-Eb? If that's the case, it would be a V7 or the dominant 7th degree in Bflat. You can think of a dominant 7th as any chord that starts on the dominant degree of the of the scale that the piece is keyed in and goes up more or less in 3rds with the 7th flatted. The 5th for the most part can be augmented or diminished without changing the character of the chord being played.

Hope this helps,

Offline Eggs

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2004, 01:38:25 PM »
OK .... so,

Even though I'm harmonizing the second degree of the scale, it's still a
"5" in any progression because it's the chord is based on the 5th degree,
or "F" natural.

Am I right?

Does this hold true in all cases?


TIA.

Offline sbinf

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2004, 02:33:16 PM »
Quote from: Eggs
OK .... so,

Even though I'm harmonizing the second degree of the scale, it's still a
"5" in any progression because it's the chord is based on the 5th degree,
or "F" natural.

Am I right?

Does this hold true in all cases?


TIA.


Well, yes, though it's the dominant 7th, not the fifth. But that's really just arguing semantics I suppose. Essentially though, as long as you're playing an F-A-C-Eb chord and song is in the key of Bflat major, you're working with the 'fifth' or dominant 7th. The note that you are harmonizing doesn't affect the chord name or it's position in relation to the tonality of the piece. You should think of fifths, fourths, seconds, whatever, in terms of intervals. That is, you really only use it to describe the relation of single notes to one another. When you're analyzing chords, it is usually correct that the interval names will line up similarly to interval names of notes, but that's not always the case (as we see with the dominant 7th). It's good to get in the habit of using terms like, dominant, subdominant, tonic, et al. for each corresponding scale when describing chords and their relation to one another in a piece. The best reason why is because most musicians will know and agree that a dominant 7th in the key of Bflat is F-A-C-Eb. However, when you speak in terms of intervals and popular chord names, one may consider F7 to be a dominant 7th or a fifth or whatever in relation to Bflat. Further still, I look at F7 and think F-A-C-E, or simply moving up in thirds. Drawn out expalnation, but I hope it helps.

Hope this helps

Offline Eggs

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2004, 03:12:29 PM »
Point taken... semantics is cool with me.  I must admit that I do not know all the proper names of chords of scale, or modes of scale for that matter (i.e. subtonic or phrygian), but I know what they are.  I think I will make the effort to review this in the very near future.  And so I understand that you see F7 as FM7 ... hmmm.  OK, it's all good.

Thanks for answering my question... but I now have one more...

If I play that dominant 7th in Bb major with something other than the root for a base note, am I still working with the dominant 7th(5th)?

TIA.

Offline B3Wannabe

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2004, 06:33:55 PM »
F7 and FM7 are two different things.

Offline sbinf

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2004, 05:50:04 AM »
Quote from: Eggs

Thanks for answering my question... but I now have one more...

If I play that dominant 7th in Bb major with something other than the root for a base note, am I still working with the dominant 7th(5th)?

TIA.


I see FM7 as F major 7th or something, either way, Fm7 I would play as F-Ab-C-and E or Eb. I dunno if there's really a standardized way to name chords in such a way, herein of course lies the problem with using that sort of notation.
As for your last question, as long as you're playing F-A-C-Eb in the tonality of Bb its always a dominant 7th no matter what note is the root. If it begins on any other note than the tonic, it's called an inversion. There are two inversions for major and minor triads, and three inversions of dominant 5ths.
Hope this helps,

Offline Eggs

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2004, 08:32:16 AM »
sbinf,


Thanks again... I see F-Ab-C-Eb as an Fm7, and an F-Ab-C-E as discordant and whatever you want to call it.

But anyway, this is a very important concept we are discussing here, at least in my opinion, because if what you say is true, I can't really pick out let's say a 6-2-5-1 by just listening to the bass line of a song.... which I thought was the case.

So, if I'm listening to something, and I start mimicking the bass line from "Were Blessed" by Fred Hammond, what do I do next?

The HearandPlay.com coursed teach you to figure out the melody first, then the harmony, then the bass line.

But I've been advised to work from the bass line by others on this forum.
So can someone tell me how to work it backwards when the bass note may not be the tonic of the chord?  Does this then become trial and error?

Hope I'm making sense.

TIA.

Offline sbinf

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2004, 05:53:10 PM »
Quote from: Eggs
sbinf,


Thanks again... I see F-Ab-C-Eb as an Fm7, and an F-Ab-C-E as discordant and whatever you want to call it.

But anyway, this is a very important concept we are discussing here, at least in my opinion, because if what you say is true, I can't really pick out let's say a 6-2-5-1 by just listening to the bass line of a song.... which I thought was the case.

So, if I'm listening to something, and I start mimicking the bass line from "Were Blessed" by Fred Hammond, what do I do next?

The HearandPlay.com coursed teach you to figure out the melody first, then the harmony, then the bass line.

But I've been advised to work from the bass line by others on this forum.
So can someone tell me how to work it backwards when the bass note may not be the tonic of the chord?  Does this then become trial and error?

Hope I'm making sense.

TIA.


It's simply a matter of analyzing the chords. For instance, if you're in the key of F and you know that the bass note is a B, you can assume that the song is probably not in the key of V simply because the bass note is a B. It's much more likely that it's a G chord. Do you get the idea? There can be numerous inversions of a chord depending on how many notes sound in it, so never assume the bass is always playing the tonic. The normal flow of {good} music would be lost if the bass played only the tonic notes.  The music would be rather disjunct. But instead, if you have the bass line making as few large interval jumps as possible, the music generally has much more purpose and direction than if you were constantly jumping 5ths, 6ths, or higher intervals.
The best way to get practice with this (I think) is to get a hymnal (any one is fine) and begin to analyze each chord of any hymn. This will give you practice with recognizing chords by looking at the notes. Next, play these hymns slowly as well. This will give you practice internalizing those chords with aural memory. It's much easier to hear and recognize a 2-5-1 or plagal cadence, or whatever, if you've had lots of practice listening to them (and knowing what you're listening to when you hear them). As you get more comfortable with this, you will begin to hear each part of a chord and know where it is in relation to other notes in the chord. You'll hear and recognize intervals as well so that you can still pick out the 'tonic' note of a chord even if it isn't in the bass.

Hope this helps

Offline sbinf

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2004, 05:54:10 PM »
By the way, that V should read key of B....

Offline Eggs

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2-5-1 Question
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2004, 08:41:09 AM »
sbinf,


OK, sounds good to me.  Thanks for the help.  I will try and put it into practice.

It truly does help!.
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