Scales

I have a question to anyone reading this: Why can't I start my major scale off as C#? When I do I'm told it's wrong that I have to go with Db for it to end up right. Can I start with C#: C#,D#,F,F#,G#,A#,C,D,E#. Is that wrong? God bless you!!! :x

[BBoy]

Hello, Sister. The major scale pattern is whole step, whole step, half, whole step, whole step, whole step, half. Look carefully at what you have and I think you'll see your mistake.  

Be Blessed . . . you are on the right track!  

[BBoy]

Oops, didn't add because I didn't see it earlier . . . with the major scale, not only must you have eight notes, but you must start and end on the same note . . . so if you started with a C#, your major pattern of whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half has to end your scale on the next C# eight notes higher.

Look carefully, and you will catch the mistake.

Be Blessed!  :lol:

[Davelong]

If you start your major scale on C#, you will have 7 sharps:

C#,D#,E# (yes, E#!) F#, G# A# and B# (again, yes, B#) and then back to the 'tonic', C#.    Isn't it easier to play in "Db" (enharmonicly the same as C#) sinc it has 5 flats, rather than 7 sharps.  (Db,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,Bb,C and tonic-Db)

A little rule - scales add to 12:  a scale in 7 sharps is the same as the enharmonic scale in 5 flats (7+5=12),  a scale of Bb with 2 flats is the same as A# with 10 sharps (which includes the double sharps!).  Knowing this rule makes it easy to figure out whether to play in sharps or flats.

All the best!

[JoyCH]

Maybe this will help - old sticky by Hammondman

KEY MAJOR SCALE
C = C D E F G A B C
F = F A G Bb C D E F (1 flat)
Bb = Bb C D E F G A Bb (2 flats)
Eb = Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb (3 flats)
Ab = Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab (4 flats)
Db = Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db (5 flats)
Gb = Gb Ab Bb Cb C Db Eb F Gb (6 flats)
B = B C# D# E F# G# A# B (5 sharps)
E = E F# G# A B C# D# E (4 sharps)
A = A B C# D E F# G# A (3 sharps)
D = D E F# G A B C# D (2 sharps)
G = G A B C D E F# G (1 sharp)

OK. No matter what anyone tells you, those are the 12 MAJOR keys. THE ONLY 12 MAJOR keys. There is no such key as "C#" (it is Db). There is no such key as "F#" (it is Gb).  There IS however, C#m  (That’s C Sharp Minor) but NOT C#.   The same for F#m.   Those keys are the relative minor keys.  C#m is the relative minor key of E natural.  E natural is a “Sharp” key signature (see the chart above).  F#m is the relative minor key of A natural.  A natural is a “Sharp” key signature as well.

Joy

[doitall06]

I'm new here to the site, but I can tell y'all are for real.  I was just going through some of the older posts to see what everyone is doing/thinking.  Joy, you broke this one down like I was sittin' in theory class in college.  I love the fact that y'all play, but you know what you're talking about, not just playing.

you go Joy, school us new bootys!!!
                                              stay annointed it's the only way2play!!

[bug]

Some one is lying to you Patsy. If they told you .you can not start a Major Scale on C#.  They said it has to start on Db.  That is wrong. They either don't know any better or they are not telling the truth. C# and Db are the exact same note. Both scales will sound exactly the same, because they use the same pitch. Each pitch has two different names. Just like you are Patsy, but you are Fullwood also. Dave Long is good. He explained it very well.  Joy explained it well but she gave you more information than you needed to answer the question.  I hope you don't get confused. Your question was about the starting pitch of a particular Major Scale.  That's all.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

[bug]

There is a key called C# Major.  There is a key called F# Major. There is a key called C# minor.  There is key called F# minor. There is a key called E Major.  There is a key called A Major. Each of these keys has a scale also. Go home and study to show yourself approved. You have been given the wrong information, or not enough information. I don't think you would put false information out as truth, but I do think you are working with limited resources.I can back up everything I have said about these keys and scales.  You can't. If you think you can explain a statement like there is no such key as C# and/or there is no such key as F# ect..... I and the rest of the world would like to hear it. You go Dave Long.  You know your stuff, don't ya.

[T-Block]

Yall might disagree with me, but theoretically, there are endless possibilities of keys. For example:

C major = 0 sharps or flats
C# major = 7 sharps
C## major = 14 sharps
C### major = 21 sharps
etc.

Yall get the picture right?  Every key also has its minor so it just goes on and on forever.  Just thought I would share that.  Next time someone says a key doesn't exist, look at this post.

[sbinf]

Yall might disagree with me, but theoretically, there are endless possibilities of keys. For example:

C major = 0 sharps or flats
C# major = 7 sharps
C## major = 14 sharps
C### major = 21 sharps
etc.

Yall get the picture right?  Every key also has its minor so it just goes on and on forever.  Just thought I would share that.  Next time someone says a key doesn't exist, look at this post.

Now I'm all kinds of confused. I have formal musical training, and have never heard this before. Please explain.
As for the other mildly confusing posts. To be even more technical, there is a note called C# and a note called Db but get this, they're two different pitches! In western music, the tones have been simplified so that every note is the same distance in terms of cents (sharp or flat) between every other note. To accomplish this, in essence some notes had to be cut out. Therefor, we take the difference between true C# and Db and combine it to make one note, C# enharmonic tone Db.
In the twentieth century, western music for the most part uses what is called equal temperament (what I just described above). However, there are several other kinds of temperament as well, for instance mean tuning (which tunes in 5ths) as well as pythagorean tuning, and others. Before equal temperament, songs in certain keys and certain notes would be horribly out of tune on keyboard instruments. But in these modes of tuning, a C# played in the key of D was a different note than Db played in the key of Ab major. I hope some of this makes sense

Hope this helps,
SBinF

[bug]

You are right. You go boy.  You know your stuff. Scales, melodies, harmonies, and rhythms are endless. So what we are trying to do is organize these elements into something that we can understand, and something that others will understand if we are teaching it. We need a standard nomenclature. If you play, teach your choir voice parts and direct that is a noble undertaking.  However if you wish to help others play, it becomes technical. This is where everyone needs to be on the same page. If I tell my bass player I want more pop from him.  He doesn't understand me. I get upset and fire him because he doesn't understand me. What does pop have to do with music? I hope you understand my point. Its okay for you to understand what you are doing in your own way, but we the people would like for you to explain it, the way you just did in your last posting. We understand that.

[bug]

You are trying to be overly technical. We have a standard temperament now. A point that I am trying to make is that standardization is needed, if this music is to evolve. "The Gospel Pearls" is an example of a book that uses a notation that everyone understands, who has been trained in standard notation. A bass player from Mississippi who reads music, can play with a keyboad player from NewYork, and a drummer from California who reads can all follow a lead sheet together. Is there anything wrong with that?

[sbinf]

I don't think my post conflicted with the point you were making. If it did, I apologize. The rhetorical device was actually used to counter whomever said there's no such key as F sharp and the like....My post had nothing to do with notation, I think it's already been pretty much standardized no matter what I say :-)

[bug]

good point. I understand you to say that the key of F# does exist. I agree, and it has a scale(s) that relate to it. Notation on a staff was in standard practice before I was born.  Again you are right.  Chord charts or lead sheets were around before I was born also. I would like to make another point. I don't know if anyone will agree but I think that if the notation(whatever kind it is) is full of mistakes, it confuses the reader.