Dancers for Praise and Worship...

[MrSparrow]

What kind of schedule do you keep with the dancers/dance ministry if they dance during praise and worship with you?

We had our Worship and Arts ministry seperated into two camps Music Ministry and Drama and Arts and now instead of dealing directly with the dance director I have to deal with (see put up with) another person (see middle man). The person over the drama ministry and I are like Oil and Water. We don't mix well. In fact, we don't mix well to the point that my Pastor seperated them from my direct leadership as Director of Worship and Arts to doing music exclusively.

Well that really didn't solve anything and now that they want to dance for praise and worship 3 Sundays out of the month, they want me to tell them the selections well in advance, give them CDs of the songs, stick to the script (not switch the order) etc... pretty soon, they're probably going to want me to rehearse with them so they can go over the song live in practice.

This is being forced on me, I do not like it at all. In fact, I got an email yesterday that was copied to my Pastor (first contact) DEMANDING that I give them the music for Sunday on the Monday before the Sunday that they minister or they WON'T dance... and they'll "tell the Pastor on me..."

 

I'm just wondering if anyone else has two seperate departments/department heads when it comes to Music and Dance/Drama? Our church population is only between 300-600 (two services)

PRAYERS AND ADVICE PLEASE!!!!!

MrSparrow

[nessalynn77]

I'm not familiar with this dilemma because we don't have dancers, but have you sat down to discuss this further with your pastor?  It sounds like the dance person might have been communicating with him, so it would be in your best interest to keep a good open line of communication with him, as well.  Just my 2 cents.

[MrSparrow]

I've tried and tried and tried some more... I've given letters to him expressing my concerns, one of the main concerns is that he doesn't respond to my efforts to keep open lines of communication with him either via a weekly talk, bi-weekly meeting, once a month etc... He says he'll do a better job but after being there for about 18 months now, it still hasn't happened...

His one and only reply is "work it out" with the other director...

MrSparrow

[MrSparrow]

Is anybody out there???

 

MrSparrow

[sjonathan02]

I'm not understanding the problem. Why CAN'T you give them the music early in the week, so that when they practice, they'll have it. Or, give them a list of songs that have been done in the past and they can incorporate movement based on particular words (i.e. for strength or might, that would be one move, for love, that would be another move). This way, even if the dancers are flowing with the praise team they'll have a set or moves for particular words or phrases.


Or, why not have the dancers come and practice when the praise team rehearses, they could use a separate part of the sanctuary (provided that's where you practice)?

This can be worked, from my perspective based on what you've given as the "picture" thus far.



Holla atcha man. I've got a meeting, so I may not be back until around noon. If you want, PM me and we'll talk. 

[LyricTenor]

Ok, if I could veer off topic slightly.  Is Praise Dance the same as Liturgical Dance?

[MrSparrow]

There are a few problems. I've suggested that they rehearse at the same time but they don't want to do that.

I've been teaching choirs/praise teams for YEARS and a lot of the times I not only don't know who sings the song but I don't know where to buy it again. If I do know who sings the song, I shouldn't have to go into my pocket and purchase the whole album for one song. I guess I could tell my Pastor that if they want music, they need to put money in my budget to buy music or money in my budget to download songs as needed.

I guess I could go to itunes.com but I'm not going to pay for that either.

The dance director wants the songs and the cds with the songs the Monday before the Sunday they serve.

I don't feel like I should have to do all of that running around especially since there is no gaurantee that they will have "time" to put movement to the songs. There have been several times in the past that I did get a CD with music to them only to be told the morning of service that they ARE NOT going to do it...

Liturgical dance is the same...

MrSparrow

[sjonathan02]

There are a few problems. I've suggested that they rehearse at the same time but they don't want to do that.

Then, that's not your issue that's theirs and they should handle that.

I've been teaching choirs/praise teams for YEARS and a lot of the times I not only don't know who sings the song but I don't know where to buy it again. If I do know who sings the song, I shouldn't have to go into my pocket and purchase the whole album for one song. I guess I could tell my Pastor that if they want music, they need to put money in my budget to buy music or money in my budget to download songs as needed.

You should start a list or a catalog of the songs that you have done. This way when someone asks, or you need the info, you'll have it. 



I guess I could go to itunes.com but I'm not going to pay for that either.

No, YOU don't HAVE to, but as the MOM AND a minister of the gospel, you may want to. Or, make the suggestion to the leader of the dance ministry.


The dance director wants the songs and the cds with the songs the Monday before the Sunday they serve. I don't feel like I should have to do all of that running around especially since there is no gaurantee that they will have "time" to put movement to the songs. There have been several times in the past that I did get a CD with music to them only to be told the morning of service that they ARE NOT going to do it...

Get over how you feel about it; God will bless you because of your sacrifice. And, when the dance ministry isn't ready to minister, THEN you can find out why, because they'll have no excuses.



This is about getting God's work done. As a result, we must be willing to go the extra mile when we are in leadership positions. Sometimes, that means coming out of our own pockets (but, I'd see if the church could foot the bill); sometimes, it means giving folks no room for excuses or complaints. 

Feel me?   

MrSparrow

[MrSparrow]

I don't want it to look like I'm just giving excuses but the biggest problem is I don't have the library (actual CD version) of the music that I've taught the choir. I can start from scratch but that means my entire library of music that we've done is automatically shut down and I have to only do new songs that I can provide the CD music for.

If anything, I do not have the money to buy CDs left and right or MP3 files either...

MrSparrow

[sjonathan02]

I don't want it to look like I'm just giving excuses but the biggest problem is I don't have the library (actual CD version) of the music that I've taught the choir. I can start from scratch but that means my entire library of music that we've done is automatically shut down and I have to only do new songs that I can provide the CD music for.

If anything, I do not have the money to buy CDs left and right or MP3 files either...

MrSparrow

That's cool. Show your Dance Leader where she can get the music. Maybe some of the members of the dance ministry can locate the song(s). Until then, the best thing would be for the dance ministry to have rehearsals on the same day as P&W rehearsals this way they'll know the songs. 


Other than that, she's being complicated about the whole thing.

[MrSparrow]

That's cool. Show your Dance Leader where she can get the music. Maybe some of the members of the dance ministry can locate the song(s). Until then, the best thing would be for the dance ministry to have rehearsals on the same day as P&W rehearsals this way they'll know the songs. 


Other than that, she's being complicated about the whole thing.

BINGO!!!!!!!!

Sjon, this is what I've been hinting at all along. If you know of any other M.o.M. that have a Music Ministry that is seperate from the Drama and Arts, ask them how they handle situations like this please...

I can't tell them anything, we can't even pray together and my I've been asking for help from my Pastor for a while now...

I'll just tell you what happened two weeks ago...

The dance director called me on Monday asking me what songs we were going to do for Praise and Worship. I told her I didn't know (TRUE) because I didn't know who was going to show up. Our male group is fairly new and we were going to be rehearsing on a different night... I told her I would tell her on Wednesday. She AGREED and UNDERSTOOD.

I taught the men Love the Lord (Lincoln Brewster) and Here I Am to Worship. On Wednesday as promised, I gave her the music to Love the Lord (a CD) and I gave her the lyrics for Here I Am to Worship. I told her that I didn't have the recording available that night but I told her that it is exactly the same as the Isreal Houghton version. She told me that she "thought" she had that song on a CD. So I thought I covered my bases in a timely manner.

The  director of the Drama and Arts department asked me why I gave the dance director lyrics with no music. I told her the same thing that I didn't have the music for the second song available but the dance director said that she "thought" she had the music. END OF DISCUSSION RIGHT???

NOPE!

I left to go to Tampa for a workshop that Thursday, Friday and Saturday. When I got to church that following Sunday we were rehearsing the song with the men and the dancers eventually came out to practice the song with us during our sound check. (30 minutes before service). I started the first song and the dancers had some movements (very basic but they did something) to it. I switched to the second song Here I am to Worship and the ladies went and sat down. 

I didn't recieve a phone call saying that the dance director couldn't find the CD or a call asking for the music. I had my cell phone and they (the drama and arts director and the dance director have my numbers)...

They said that they didn't have time to put movement to Here I am to Worship. I told the dancers that I didn't know that they didn't have the music to the second song because I was told that the dance director "THOUGHT" she had the music.

A few days later I get a NASTY email addressed to the Pastor and the dance director from the Drama and Arts director saying that I'm being a stumbling block and I'm not cooperating with them among other lies...

I'm pretty upset that things are the way they are, for a church our size (300-600) we shouldn't have two different ministries for music and one for drama...

That's another issue...

I just need your prayers and some REAL solutions folks...

MrSparrow

[sjonathan02]

BINGO!!!!!!!!

Sjon, this is what I've been hinting at all along. If you know of any other M.o.M. that have a Music Ministry that is seperate from the Drama and Arts, ask them how they handle situations like this please...

I can't tell them anything, we can't even pray together and my I've been asking for help from my Pastor for a while now...

I'll just tell you what happened two weeks ago...

The dance director called me on Monday asking me what songs we were going to do for Praise and Worship. I told her I didn't know (TRUE) because I didn't know who was going to show up. Our male group is fairly new and we were going to be rehearsing on a different night... I told her I would tell her on Wednesday. She AGREED and UNDERSTOOD.

I taught the men Love the Lord (Lincoln Brewster) and Here I Am to Worship. On Wednesday as promised, I gave her the music to Love the Lord (a CD) and I gave her the lyrics for Here I Am to Worship. I told her that I didn't have the recording available that night but I told her that it is exactly the same as the Isreal Houghton version. She told me that she "thought" she had that song on a CD. So I thought I covered my bases in a timely manner.

The  director of the Drama and Arts department asked me why I gave the dance director lyrics with no music. I told her the same thing that I didn't have the music for the second song available but the dance director said that she "thought" she had the music. END OF DISCUSSION RIGHT???

NOPE!

I left to go to Tampa for a workshop that Thursday, Friday and Saturday. When I got to church that following Sunday we were rehearsing the song with the men and the dancers eventually came out to practice the song with us during our sound check. (30 minutes before service). I started the first song and the dancers had some movements (very basic but they did something) to it. I switched to the second song Here I am to Worship and the ladies went and sat down. 

I didn't recieve a phone call saying that the dance director couldn't find the CD or a call asking for the music. I had my cell phone and they (the drama and arts director and the dance director have my numbers)...

They said that they didn't have time to put movement to Here I am to Worship. I told the dancers that I didn't know that they didn't have the music to the second song because I was told that the dance director "THOUGHT" she had the music.

A few days later I get a NASTY email addressed to the Pastor and the dance director from the Drama and Arts director saying that I'm being a stumbling block and I'm not cooperating with them among other lies...

I'm pretty upset that things are the way they are, for a church our size (300-600) we shouldn't have two different ministries for music and one for drama...

That's another issue...

I just need your prayers and some REAL solutions folks...

MrSparrow

A REAL solution is to talk to your pastor about this. You ARE correct, having two different ministries is unnecessary for a church of your size AND it cause unnecessary division, to me.


If you're pastor is unwilling to tackle the issue, then all you CAN do is pray about it. And, continue to implement the suggestions that I gave along with what you have been doing. Because if you allow it to eat you up, then YOU won't be able to minister before God.


Praying for you, bruh. Be Blessed.

[uniquepraise]

We have two separate departments a Min of Music and a Prophetic dance leader.

The way we do it at church most of our songs are prophetic and we flow with the spirit so even if we give the dance leader a list of songs it could change thus the dancers flow with whatever we sing. Some of the praise team members are dancers as well so we already know the songs and can give the leader an idea of whats going on to a certain point.  Again our ministry is Prophetic so if I tell you ABCD the night before when we get the church GOD could say HIJKL and guess where we're going?  HIJKL

Our pastor has set leaders that are called into these areas of ministry so he would expect that the leaders get along and work out their issues and the job be done.

I dont see a problem with giving them a song list yet at the same time WHO are YOU to tell GOD how to run HIS service? Arent we here to praise him?  I dont agree with them telling you not to deviate from a set song list that confines not only the music ministry to a box but GOD as well.  If they dont want to dance then to me they are not doing it for the Glory of God.

There have been plenty of times that our dance team doesnt know what the praise team is going to sing but because GOD has gifted them and anointed them to dance they do just that DANCE! God can download moves to a song right there on the spot.  Our dance team dances even to songs of the Lord that are dropped right on the spot to the praise team unrehearsed songs-songs never heard before.  That being said its a matter of will. Whos are you here to serve your own or Gods?  God doesnt care about you not having time to rehearse He wants praise from you no matter what. In good times and in bad.  When you like the person you have to deal with or if you dont.

I know thats a lot of rambling but I hope it helped in some way. 

[diverse379]

To me this problem is a classic example of chain organizational structure

I understand that this person probably rubs you the wrong way.
but I am sure that he or she just wants to do the best job possible.

the asking for the cd,s in advance is just their way of ensuring that they can dance with you on your songs hence the push that you stay with the program.

i will touch on that point later

but unfortunately the larger our ministries the more organized the service tends to become

at the cathedrals believe me everything is structured'

it is the same thing with large companies and small companies the smaller companies can make changes very quickly
the larger organizations have lots of layers of management to go through.

i wonder if a compromise can be drawn
maybe you can give them the Cd's as early as possible
but they can get some dances that are usable on several types of songs.


i can see where this can go and if you two can get it together it can be a really beautiful thing

of course the devil doesent want that.

I am sure God would want it

so whose team are you going to work for?

Not saying it is easy but it is necessary it is about politics

now to touch on the email thing

email is the worst way to communicate with someone that you have no relationship with

she was wrong with her approach

do your best to address her with calm love with the interest of the ministry first

let her know you want to help her do her job
let her know your difficulties and listen patiently as she explains her difficulties

maybe you two need a mediator
if the above doesent seem to work out

honestly the pastor should have been on this a long time ago

i dont understand how they can let something that is so key to their ministry be left to just develop with out their guidance

When pastors are nebulous about what they want they make it difficult for the key players to do their job because I am suire both of you are trying your best to work with the pastor

[diverse379]

one more suggestion
i under stand the issue with the music
but what they can do is have someone tape your choir rehearsals especially the final renditions of the songs

this way they will build their own library

this solves a lot of things because you probably do the songs slightly different anyway.

so make the sugestion that someone from their team come to the rehearsals and tape the rehearsals this way all you have to do is give them a list of the songs you are going to sing

[MrSparrow]

I was actually thinking about just not having a rehearsal at all and just singing all of the songs that we're currently using in our songbook to get them together. We have the capacity to record our services on CD and DVD. I guess I'm just going to have to set up a time and record my Praise Team songs, Church choir songs and men's choir songs and possibly my youth choir songs, catalogue them and give them to the dance director along with the new material I teach.

UniquePraise, I got blasted in another email because I didn't tell them that I switched song order of our watch night service. It was truly because I didn't remember or write down the order. We sang the same songs but instead of doing songs ABC and then D.. What I did not know, because there's no communication from them to me (see they just didn't warn me) was that they had two sets of dancers, one young and one elderly. We did 4 praise and worship songs and the younger dancers did song A and the elderly did song B etc... After song B, I went to song D and the wrong dancers were out there. The email says that I did that on purpose to embarass them... Once again, instead of checking with me and telling me that there are two seperate dancers doing specific songs they just left it up to me to read their minds. Once I saw them switch, it was too late for me to stop and ask the director what song I told them was next...

As you can imagine, we have a flow with praise and worship when we don't have dancers but I can't really flow if I told the dancers we're doing song A and B but that morning song Z is laid on my heart. I don't have the authority to say to them, I'm sorry but we're not going to do the same songs we did at 8 am for the 11 am service.

When a prophetic song comes forth, they don't dance, they just stand there or rock from side to side... as you can imagine, I am very frustrated...

I like the idea of generic movements that go to different songs but I can't suggest movements to them because that would mean that I'm "micromanaging them"...

Please continue with your advice and prayers...

MrSparrow

 

[sjonathan02]

I was actually thinking about just not having a rehearsal at all and just singing all of the songs that we're currently using in our songbook to get them together. We have the capacity to record our services on CD and DVD. I guess I'm just going to have to set up a time and record my Praise Team songs, Church choir songs and men's choir songs and possibly my youth choir songs, catalogue them and give them to the dance director along with the new material I teach.

UniquePraise, I got blasted in another email because I didn't tell them that I switched song order of our watch night service. It was truly because I didn't remember or write down the order. We sang the same songs but instead of doing songs ABC and then D.. What I did not know, because there's no communication from them to me (see they just didn't warn me) was that they had two sets of dancers, one young and one elderly. We did 4 praise and worship songs and the younger dancers did song A and the elderly did song B etc... After song B, I went to song D and the wrong dancers were out there. The email says that I did that on purpose to embarass them... Once again, instead of checking with me and telling me that there are two seperate dancers doing specific songs they just left it up to me to read their minds. Once I saw them switch, it was too late for me to stop and ask the director what song I told them was next...

As you can imagine, we have a flow with praise and worship when we don't have dancers but I can't really flow if I told the dancers we're doing song A and B but that morning song Z is laid on my heart. I don't have the authority to say to them, I'm sorry but we're not going to do the same songs we did at 8 am for the 11 am service.

When a prophetic song comes forth, they don't dance, they just stand there or rock from side to side... as you can imagine, I am very frustrated...

I like the idea of generic movements that go to different songs but I can't suggest movements to them because that would mean that I'm "micromanaging them"...

Please continue with your advice and prayers...

MrSparrow

I, along with other I'm sure, have no problem offering suggestions, but at some point, Sparrow, you're going to have to use some of them. There needs to be an airing out meeting; everybody just says what's on their heart and mind and get it out on the table. Then, deal with the issues. If you can't come to an agreement, then decide whether or not that issue is even relevent.

Either way, a change MUST happen and it's GOT to come from you, if it's not going to come from your Pastor.

Forget the past, all of you, and have this meeting, then move forward. Or, someone may have to be asked to leave or step down or have an all night prayer vigil until the Spirit of the Lord comes into that place.

Either way, you can't conquer what you won't confront!! Peace!

[MrSparrow]

I hear you SJon but I know I'm making progress already with the suggestions I've got from Diverse and UniquePraise. Things that I will mention in our airing out conversation that we will have eventually...

Thanks again everyone,

I'm still wondering how others do things so I won't have to reinvent the wheel...

MrSparrow

[sjonathan02]

I hear you SJon but I know I'm making progress already with the suggestions I've got from Diverse and UniquePraise. Things that I will mention in our airing out conversation that we will have eventually...

Thanks again everyone,

I'm still wondering how others do things so I won't have to reinvent the wheel...

MrSparrow

See, I don't think too many people HAVE this type of issue. It's unique, at best.

[MrSparrow]

You don't think other churches have liturgical dancers during Praise and Worship or you don't think other churches don't have the communication issues I'm having...

MrSparrow