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Author Topic: Distinguish between different modes!!  (Read 4541 times)

Offline E-Phrygian

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« on: September 11, 2004, 08:10:48 PM »
I was reading the theory the other day. I find it interesting about different modes of scales. It's easy to remember the scales of the modes but how do 'you' distinguish it when you hear it?? And if you're going to compose songs in those modes what do you do? how do you play it to give it it's character?

thank you if you can answer my questions, and give me examples. :P

Offline uriahsmusic

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....modes...a wonderful way to be different!
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2004, 09:47:56 PM »
......AN EASY WAY TO MAKE MODAL MUSIC IS TO USE THE SAME APROACH THAT REGULAR MUSIC TOOK!....AND WHAT IS THAT YOU ASK?.......WRITE OUT THE SCALE THAT YOU ARE WORKING WITH....LETS SAY IT IS MIXOLYDIAN....THEN BUILD CHORDS USING WHAT EVER THE 1,3,5,7 IS.  
FOR A NORMAL C SCALE FOR EXAMPLE IT COULD BE C,E,G,B!  THE NEXT CHORD IS D,F,A,C....ON AND ON!....IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE 1,3,5,7...IT CAN BE WHAT EVER YOU WANT.  
ONCE YOU HAVE THE CHORDS AND THE SCALE ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS MESS AROUND WITH THE TWO UNTIL YOU HEAR SOMETHING THAT WORKS FOR YOU....
YOU CAN ALSO JUST EXPERIMENT USING THE VARIOUS SCALES AGAINST DIFFERENT CHORDS IS A REGULAR MAJOR SCALE CHORD PROGRESSION....GO CRAZY....

Offline E-Phrygian

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2004, 10:00:38 PM »
hey, thanks for replying.

i still don't entirely get this.
let's just use C-major as an example.

say i wanna play using Dorian mode. and the progression is 1 3 5 7.
so it's C Em G Bm etc
since dorian has a minor third and a minor seventh.

C Em G Bm are the chords, so what i do is play the notes in those chords in that order (C Em G Bm) to get the sound of dorian character??

am i making any sense here?

Offline uriahsmusic

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....oops
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2004, 01:01:50 AM »
...the 1,3,5 and 7 I am referring to are the the cegb of the the first chord of a C major scale....the second chord is a dm7...it's 1357 are dfac and so on!....so if you plot out any scale on a piece of paper and find the 1357 starting at different notes you will get chords that can be used against that scale.....each mode serving a different purpose will be somewhat unique.   I tried what I am suggesting to you some years ago and it worked nicely. Dont forget though...when you are building your chords based on each new scale...DONT LOOK BACK!...(YOU MIGHT TURN INTO A PILLAR OF SALT!)....just kidding!....you do want to be faithful to the mode no matter how wierd the new chords sound...then you will get some idea of what these people were thinking when the devised the modes!

Offline JayP5150

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2004, 02:39:12 PM »
When I was introduced to modes, the teacher broke it down by giving me an example of the style of music you would normally use that mode in.

Hang on, let me get my big ol' binder out...

Ok, check this out.  I thought it was really helpful to me.

Ionian - Major key - Jazz
Dorian - Minor key - Bluesy
Phrygian - Minor key - Spanish-y, dark heavy
Lydian - Major key - "dreamy" (like Satriani)
Mixolydian - Major key - Bluesy, dom. 7th (Dickey Betts)
Aeolian - Minor key- rock, blues-rock
Locrian - Diminished - dark, heavy

Also, these will always be in the same order.  Take any scale, and move up through the notes, and associate those notes with that mode.  Say you are in C major.  Stay in the C major shape, then to change your mode, just choose a different root note to "land" on.

Ionian - C
Dorian - D(minor)
Phrygian - E(minor)
Lydian - F
Mixolydian - G
Aeolian - A(minor)
Locrian - B (diminished/minor)

Honestly, in the stuff our church does, I can usually get away with my blues scales, Ionian, Aeolian, and maybe Dorian stuff.  Not much else fits the stuff we do.  

Another cool thing is to get used to mixing scales.  Like, throw your Aeolian licks into your blues scales, etc.  You come up with cool stuff.

Have fun, I've known this stuff for years and I still rarely utilize it.

Offline JayP5150

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2004, 02:41:31 PM »
E-Phrygian, I just read your post again, and you probably already knew some of the stuff I posted.  Sorry if I was redundant.  Hope some of it was new to you at least.

JP

Offline E-Phrygian

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2004, 12:21:37 AM »
i didn't find the stuff you posted that useful but thanks anyway JayP.

I think i understand your explaination completely now.
Let's use Phrygian mode as an example here.
Say i wanna play E Phrygian mode, then E is the root or tonic of the phrygian mode scale. and say i wanna play 1 3 5 7 notes refering to the E-major scale, then the notes i play will be E G B D. Then i move to the next chord of the E Phrygian scale which is F, and i use the F minor scale or whatever, and play 1 3 5 7 (F A C E) and so on right? am i right?

wether this is right or i've totally lost it.

Offline B3Wannabe

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2004, 06:13:33 AM »
It looks right, but I think you did a typo when you said "refering to the E-major scale", since it should be the C major scale.

Offline Razzman

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2004, 08:54:43 AM »
And if you are playing an E maj scale, the 1357 notes wouild be E G# B D#

Offline JayP5150

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2004, 10:59:56 AM »
E-phrygian,

I think I've realized part of your confusion.  When playin in a mode (E Phrygian, for instance), you do not change your scale you're using.  You will always be in a C-Major scale (like B3 said).  

If your song changes to F, you are still in the E-Phrygian mode/C Major scale.  You may change some of your "landing" notes in your lead to compensate for your chord changes, but it does not actually change the scale or mode you are using.  

By your example, if you reference your notes from the starting point of F, still using the C Major scale (as I believe you were), you have effectively changed your mode to F Lydian, because you are now playing a C Major scale over F, not E.  You will continue to reference E to stay "Phrygian."

Chords are generally irrelevant to modes, also.  Certain modes sound better over certain chord progressions (which is what I posted above--some modes are minor-flavored, some are major flavored, one is diminished), but there are not really "phrygian" chords, per se.  The way you have it written, you are trying to make chords out of the E Phrygian scale.  Remember that these notes are just C Major--you've only changed which note is your root (or tonic).  So, if you try to construct chords with these notes, you will get the same chords you would get out of dissecting a C major scale, only the order you put them in your prog. may be different.  The basic chords you can make out of this scale are (without embellishments like your seventh's, etc.) Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C, Dm.

Regardless of what chord, though, if you're in E-phrygian, you stay in E-phrygian(C-major scale).  I guess if you want to write something "phrygian-sounding" you can basically pick any of these chords from above and make up a prog.  It's going to sound dark, it's going to sound a little flamenco.  Try (soundng this out in my head) Em - F - Em - C - Bdim - Am (use Bdim as a pasing chord).

I know I can't show you the feel of a prog. on a post, but play around with stuff like that if you're looking for a phrygian feel.  

BTW, are you writing a heavy metal song?  Just kidding.  But that's where this mode is predominantly used--80's speed metal.  I find it hard to adapt to much else.  It always has that heavy sound.

Hope that clears  it up a little.

Offline E-Phrygian

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2004, 02:53:16 AM »
first of all i like to say thanks to JayP and everyone else that have replied to my post about Modal.

i think now i have a more complete understanding of modal, i always have to stay on C-Major scale even if the chord of the mode changes. E is the root of the chords in E-Phrygian, it is 1, or tonic or root.
But isn't it true a C-Major scale doesn't have any minors
C-Major = C D E F# G A B C

I think if you give me an exmple it will solve all the misconception. Let's say i'm going to play in E Phrygian mode in the progression of 1 3 5 7. Let's pretend we're not going to change any "landing" notes. And we're playing it over a C-Major scale, can you list all the chords that should be played from E to G of the Phrygian scale.

By the way, it's just that lately i'm influenced by a lot of Yngwie Malmsteen's guitar tricks. I watched a video with him playing E Phrygian and Arppegios and Harmonic Minors, Chromatics. That probably explains why i want to learn modes especially Phrygian mode. To get the Heavy Spanish Flamenco sound.

Offline JayP5150

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2004, 12:22:49 AM »
The C major scale is all whole notes C D E F G A B C.  The minor chords I was referring to were the ones you can constructs using the notes out of that scale.  Even in a major chord prog., you will always have at least a "relative minor" (the 6 chord in that prog.)  Am is the relative minor of C, just like Em is G's relative minor, etc.

This might be helpful, too.  The formula for any major scale is this:

Start at your root note (C), then follow this walk up--whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half.  This works like this:

C - whole step to D - whole step to E - half step to F - whole step to G - whole step to A - whole step to B - half step back to C


Keep in mind that a whole step is simply 2 frets, a half is one, this does not refer to a note being sharp or flat (remember, E to F or B to C are only half steps on your fretboard--even though they are the next whole note--so  a whole step from E, for instance, is F#)

hope that helps some more.

Offline JayP5150

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2004, 12:36:39 AM »
Quote
Let's say i'm going to play in E Phrygian mode in the progression of 1 3 5 7


If you are referring back to what Uriah was telling you, I believe he was referring to using these notes to make chords (these would be the chords I posted above, only I did not use any 7ths).  Basic chord theory is knowing that any "full" chord must have a root (1), 3rd and 5th to be complete.  the added 7 makes it a 7th chord.  the 1357 from the E-Phrygian scale is E G  B  D, or Em7.

If you actually wanted to make a progression using the 1 3 5 and 7 chords, you would play Em G Bdim and Dm.  I came up with these voicings by starting at a note on the E Phrygian scale, and picking the 3rd and 5th relative to that note, but sticking with the scale I'm in.

Em - E G B (a minor is a flatted 3rd)
G - G B D
Bdim - B D F (a dim ia a flatted 3rd and flatted 5th)
Dm - D F A

Let me know if I'm off topic, or if you need any more chord structure breakdowns (like, "what makes a chord a MAJ7, or aug, etc.)

Offline E-Phrygian

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2004, 06:06:23 PM »
this is most definite helpful, i know a few things about chord structures. The part where you said any chord needs tonic, a third and a fifths to be complete. And i know about the minors and diminish, and dominant 7.
i have not yet come across Augmented, or Sus chords, (what other chords are there?) and by the way, does the Root always have to be on the "lowest sounding" string? like a bass string.

Offline JayP5150

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2004, 06:42:13 PM »
There are too many chords to really list them all, but the basic (at least, most used) are all the ones we've been talking about.  Also, 9ths, 7#9ths (the Hendrix chord), and on and on.

An augmented chord has a sharp 5th, so Caug is C E G#.  Sus chords have an added note, like a 2 or 4, for instance.  Do you ever do the pinky modulation thingy with a D chord?  And then the one where you lift off the F# to an open E?  That's a Dsus4 and Dsus2.  Those are D F# A G  and D F# A E.  I think that usually when a keyboard player has an sus on a lead sheet, it's almost always the sus2 (correct me, y'all if I'm wrong.

The root of a chord does not always have to be the lowsest note.  That's why it's important to understand this stuff, you can structure a chord anywhere on the neck with this knowledge.  You may see these written as polychords, though--meaning that a different note is in the bass.  These are written as C/E (C chord, with an E root--it's still just a C, 'cause E is the 3rd to C, it's just "flipped," if you will...).  Another popluar one is D/F#, where you finger a low F# with your D chord (excellenct for a walk down from G to Em, but that's another topic).

I think we've gotten off of the mode thing a bit.  Do you want to start a thread for chord theory?

Offline E-Phrygian

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2004, 09:13:33 PM »
yeah we are a bit off the topic, i'll start another thread about chord structure a little later.

The first time i learned Polychord is when i try to play Ziggy Stardust, i forgot what the chords are now  :) , but i think there is a D/F# and i learnt that You play D with the lowest sounding string F sharp.

Can i ask what type of music do you specialise in? Just out of the blue.

Offline JayP5150

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Distinguish between different modes!!
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2004, 09:23:44 AM »
I'm mainly rooted in the blues-rock thing.  I just got into playing gospel about a year and a half ago when I got saved and started in church again--two completely different things!

I played in church when I was younger, but our church was pretty much southern gospel and bluegrass, which I'm not really good at.  I try to do it all, but I can not flatpick 'grass style.  I always want to bend strings, which doesn't fit.  One of my dad's friends and I were playing once, and he said I was playing "blues-grass."

When I was in my band before I got saved it was stuff like SRV, Allmans, Clapton/Cream, ZZ Top, etc.  that's what I cut my teeth on as a teenager.  I'm only 24, so I'm still older in my musical tastes than I should be.

I'm still trying to find a christian jam-band, like the Allmans, but no luck.

I do some Third Day, and Audio Adrenaline sometimes for youth concerts and stuff, but that's a compromise for me.  I'm trying to find a rockin' christian guitar-based band.

My biggest influences were VanHalen, Zakk Wylde, Allmans, Clapton, etc.

A friend of mine wanted to start a classic-rock-christian band, but I haven't heard from him since he mentioned it.  Oh well...
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