LearnGospelMusic.com Community

Please login or register.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: need help with scales  (Read 12081 times)

Offline ssabass

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108

need help with scales
« on: December 05, 2007, 06:36:47 PM »
 I strictly play by ear. I just purchased A book by called Total Scales Techniques & applications, Master Every Note, Every Scale In Every Position. Now my question is since I play strictly Gospel/Jazz, are there certain scales I should consentrate on.

Offline Quebass86

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Gender: Male

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 11:02:21 PM »
IMO learn them all, learn the modes to each scale..that will do wonders for you and give you so many options....
May God's Grace & Mercy smile upon you!

Offline mjl422

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 625
  • Gender: Male

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 12:40:25 PM »
Major and Minor Scales, Major and Minor Pentatonics, and Blues scale.   

I posted these because I know it takes time to learn all of them (and you need to have some kind of focus in learning things) but, as Quebass86 said Learn them all or as many as you have time to.

Offline Quebass86

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Gender: Male

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 01:15:18 PM »
Major and Minor Scales, Major and Minor Pentatonics, and Blues scale.   

I posted these because I know it takes time to learn all of them (and you need to have some kind of focus in learning things) but, as Quebass86 said Learn them all or as many as you have time to.

Sorry, I meant to indicate that in my post, good looking out mjl422...the majors, minors, panetatonic and blues scales  are definately the foundation and there is so much you can do with them. Once you feel comfortable with those then expand on the "modes"...my whole bass life changed when I began to understand the modes and how they relate within each scale...It is an on going learning process with scales. I am still learning new things about just the major scales 7 years later...
May God's Grace & Mercy smile upon you!

Offline Torch7

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2077
  • Gender: Male
    • Gospel Bass Guitar Lessons Site

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 03:09:12 PM »
I will attempt to explain these concepts with the examples
deriving from the C Major.  These patterns can be transposed
all over the neck, however C makes it easy to conceptualize
due to C major scale not having any sharps or flats.

It's important to note how the C Major Scale also called the IONIAN MODE is created,

Starting at a root note in our case C, you move two whole steps, then a half step, then 3 whole steps and a half step.  If you want a easy way to memorize this, think of a keyboard.  Starting at C it has two black keys seperating white keys, then two white keys next to one another, then it has three black keys seperating white keys, and then two white keys next to one another.

So the Formula for the C Major Scale looks like

C {Whole Step} D {Whole Step} E {half step} F {Whole Step} G {Whole Step} A {Wholestep} B {half step} C


C Major (Ionian Mode)

-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
--a--|-----|--b--|--C--|-----|-----|
--e--|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|-----|
-----|--C--|-----|--d--|-----|-----|

You can start playing at the D which is in position two of the C Major Scale, but it gives the same notes a different feel, and sound because the tonal center is D.

D (Dorian Mode) C is where we started previously and now indicated with an x

--D--|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|-----|
--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|-----|
-----|--x--|-----|--D--|-----|-----|

(Above is one way to finger the Dorian Mode)

-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
-----|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
-----|-----|-----|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
-----|--x--|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|

This way of fingering it gave me a greater understanding of what was happening in the dorian mode, in relation to the C Major (ionian) scale.  In order to run this mode in the key of C I would have to change my Whole Step half step relationships in order to key the notes in the Key Signature.  So from D I had to flatten to 3rd, and 7th.  So my formula changed to W H W W W H W

D {Whole Step} E {half step} F {Whole Step} G {Whole Step} A {Whole Step} B {half step} C {Whole Step} D

In Application:
If the Chorded instruments, Guitar or Keys are playing at position two or some variation of the D chord, you can use the D Dorian Mode, for Solo's; Riffs, Runs, are outlining the chord.

E (Phrygian Mode)


--D--|-----|--E--|-----|-----|-----|
--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|-----|
--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|-----|
-----|--x--|-----|--x--|-----|-----|

The Formula: H W W W H W W
E {half step} F {Whole Step} G {Whole Step} A {Whole Step} B {half step} C {Whole Step} D {Whole Step} E

The application is the same as above if the chords with the exception the chords are based on the 3 or C Major.

F (Lydian Mode)

--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|-----|-----|
--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|-----|
--X--|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|-----|
-----|--x--|-----|--x--|-----|-----|

The Formula: W W W H W W H
F {Whole Step} G {Whole Step} A {Whole Step} B {half step} C {Whole Step} D {Whole Step} E {half step} F

G (Mixolydian Mode)

--*D-|-----|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
--*A-|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|
--X--|--X--|-----|--G--|-----|--A--|
-----|--x--|-----|--x--|-----|-----|

** Note the A & D at the top Could be fingered there, but I typically finger those notes lower on the neck to keep my fingering consistent.

A (Aeolian Mode)

--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|
--X--|--X--|-----|--x--|-----|-----|
-----|--x--|-----|--x--|-----|-----|

If You have more strings to work with
--G--|-----|--A--|-----|-----|-----|
--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|-----|-----|
--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|-----|
--X--|--X--|-----|--x--|-----|-----|
-----|--x--|-----|--x--|-----|-----|

This figure is what most folks would consider as the natural minor.
The Formula: W H W W H W W

B (Locrian Mode)

** Since we would run out of string by this point, I am gonna start over at a half step above the C to get to the B which is in the 7th position.

-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|-----|
--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|-----|
--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|-----|

The formula:  H W W H W W H

See if you can see similarities in the modes example:  How I diagramed the Ionian Mixolydian, and Lydian are closer in relation than the others, these are MAJOR in tonality, they all have a major 3rd.

I know this may be confusing, but keep this thread bookmarked it will begin to sync in as you practice these concepts.

If it's still confusing, hit me up and I will put a video together.
 

Offline mjl422

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 625
  • Gender: Male

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 03:12:44 PM »
Sorry, I meant to indicate that in my post, good looking out mjl422...the majors, minors, panetatonic and blues scales  are definately the foundation and there is so much you can do with them. Once you feel comfortable with those then expand on the "modes"...my whole bass life changed when I began to understand the modes and how they relate within each scale...It is an on going learning process with scales. I am still learning new things about just the major scales 7 years later...

Not a problem.  Music theory can be so overwhelming at times that if you don't set milestones for yourself, you will have a nervous breakdown.  I can imagine somebody looking at a 300 page book of scales thinking "how do I memorize these?"  I'm still trying to get my modes to the point where I don't have to think about them (of course the Ionian, Mixolydian and Aeolian are easy).

And to add to what was already posted:  As you're learning the scales, learn how to use them.  I remember when I started learning, I learned all kinds of scales  and had no idea what to do with them.

Offline Quebass86

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Gender: Male

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 03:35:53 PM »
Not a problem.  Music theory can be so overwhelming at times that if you don't set milestones for yourself, you will have a nervous breakdown.  I can imagine somebody looking at a 300 page book of scales thinking "how do I memorize these?"  I'm still trying to get my modes to the point where I don't have to think about them (of course the Ionian, Mixolydian and Aeolian are easy).

And to add to what was already posted:  As you're learning the scales, learn how to use them.  I remember when I started learning, I learned all kinds of scales  and had no idea what to do with them.

You are right on point! Application is the key! I remember learning alot of theory and was still lost when try to apply to songs. It is like connecting the dots. Once you got one dot covered you have to move to the next dot to begin to see the picture form.
May God's Grace & Mercy smile upon you!

Offline ssabass

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2007, 05:43:20 PM »
Just want to say thanks for your input. Now I've got some work to do

Offline DaReal

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2007, 02:24:24 PM »
 ?/? Ok, I keep hearing about modes and all...i think I have a good handle on what modes are but I don't know how to play them. Can somebody give some insight into this?

For riffing, do I just "find" a dorian riff when the music is on the 2 of a 2-5-1, do I run the scale or should I do a couple 1-3-5 dorian arppeggio's? What would be the difference between a dorian arpeggio and a 2-position minor arpeggio?

When soloing, let's say we're running a simple 2 chord motif between 1 and 5, do I just vibe off the Ionian and the Mixo-Lydian? I'm looking for a starting point as to where us bass players mess with modes, so I can experiment, etc...

I'm a pratical learner so I'd really appreciate it if someone could give me an example within a song (like "Lord, I lift Your name on high" which stays on the 1,3,4,5 essentially, or something like that)

Thanks in advance,

K

P.s. And since it's the "season of giving," if anyone wouldn't mind shedding some light into tritone placement, that would be greatly appreciated too  ;D ;D

Offline Torch7

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2077
  • Gender: Male
    • Gospel Bass Guitar Lessons Site

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2007, 11:36:46 PM »
You are correct in the application of the modes, if a song is peddling at the 2 chord in the progression, you use the dorian mode in your selection of notes to groove over, or for fills & runs.
The 2-position (natural)minor scale's arpeggio and the dorian modes arpeggio share the same 1-3-5 in the case of the Key for C.

D-Dorian would be: D - E - F - G - A - B - C, if you take the 1 - 3 - 5... You Get D-F-A
D-Aeolian (which is the natural minor) D - E - F - G - A - Bb - C - D, if you take the 1 - 3 - 5 you get D-F-A again.

The only difference is the six which is the Bb.

You correct about the 1 & 5 motif as well...

If you notice utilizing the key of C each mode keeps the notes in the Key Signature the same.

Offline DaReal

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2007, 10:16:21 PM »
Aight...i've been messin with this but it's just not sounding like I want it to (read: good)...I guess it's back to the drawing board...at least I know I'm not way off. Thanks dude...

Now what about the tritones? Where would I place them?

Offline Torch7

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2077
  • Gender: Male
    • Gospel Bass Guitar Lessons Site

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2007, 10:27:10 AM »
Maybe someone else would be able to shed more light on Tritones, b/c my understanding of them is quite simplistic.

A tritone is a chord form with a Flatted 5th/ Augmented 4th.  The tritone creates great dissonance and sounds kinda off.
They are used to add tension.  But should be used sparingly or it they don't do much. 
That's about as far as my understanding goes.

Offline EBY EMEREUWA

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 06:35:08 PM »
Pls sir still learning what is dominant,augmented..etc chords,

StooB

  • Guest
Re: need help with scales
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2011, 07:44:31 AM »
When playing scales in music, now I have a 3 plan attack on playing.

This describes playing major scales but works in a minor scales apart from step 3.

1: I use the standard way of playing - 1 finger per fret over 4 successive frets ascending and descending as we learn scales when we are beginners
2: 3 notes per string ascending and desending -  this is more used when locking into a modal pattern (dorian/lydian etc)
3: The aelion (minor) scale which never uses the ring finger - Index finger on root, slide to 2nd note which is two frets horizontally, then middle finger on next fret, pinky on two frets away, then repeat this a string up without a slide.

I will attach videos explaining this.

This combination helps me to root myself on the fretboard and understand where I am. I always wondered how proffesional players could play all round the fretboard, I'm only now discovering this! It just takes loads of time and studying patterns rather than modes at first will be a better plan of attack.

There is so much misunderstanding about modes. How I would describe modes is that you play the major scale starting from a step on the major scale (say number 2 which would be A if playing in G major for example) and bring that pattern down to the root of the key you are playing in whilst using the scale shape and emphasising the note you are starting from.

Playing in modes and using modal patterns are different, if you learn all the mode patterns (best learning the 3 notes per string method), then you have learnt how to simply play a major scale from every degree of that scale on the fretboard. If you use those patterns starting from the root of the key you are playing, then you are playing in modes. It's only now that I have concentrated on modal patterns and am getting really confident on playing around the fretboard.

But you can't simply play in a different mode and expect it to sound tonally great if the band aren't playing in the same mode, especially the phrygian minor mode, but there are exceptions. George Benson uses a lot of Mixolydian as do many jazz players when playing jazzy stuff using a lot of 7th chords, mixolydian scales  sound great over 7 dominant chords (G7, C7) and gives a jazzy feel. So you can throw a mixolydian scale in over a 7th chord due to the mode only having one note difference, the minor 7th. The dorian mode (2nd position) works as well over a minor chord.

So you have to work out melodically what the band is doing

So my advise is don't worry about MODES, but do concentrate on the modal PATTERNS, you start to recognise the patterns on the fretboard when playing through your scales up and down the neck.

Here's some great videos on playing scales. When practicing scales and modes, don't forget you have notes going down the fretboard and not just up! Good luck!

3 notes per string method

3 Notes Per String Major Scales - Advanced Guitar Lesson


Excellent video explaining how to use the aeolian pattern to play any scale, any mode and any key. (My step 3 way of playing scales)

How to apply the modes - Part one (How to play any mode, in any key, with any scale shape)


How to practice scales and the dorian mode videos
'How to practice scales' pt1 - BASS LESSON with Scott Devine


Walking Bass lesson - Static Minor Chords (SO WHAT) with Scott Devine

StooB

  • Guest
Re: need help with scales
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 07:56:20 AM »

StooB

  • Guest
Re: need help with scales
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2011, 08:55:50 AM »
Another follow up lesson to the 3 notes per string method

Visualizing Major Scales In All Keys Quickly And Easily Pt.1 - Advanced Guitar Lesson

Offline malthumb

  • Moderator
  • LGM Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Gender: Male
  • Praise Is What I Do
    • Your Car Does What?!?!?

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2011, 09:34:53 AM »
Mods......please elevate this to a stickie.
FAITH unites people
RELIGION divides FAITH

Offline BassbyGrace

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2284
  • Gender: Male
  • striving

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2011, 12:35:03 AM »
Not just because its me, but alot of ppl seemed to be helped with this one:

Bass Lesson: Using Scales/Key to find licks
Praise Him!

StooB

  • Guest
Interval training?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2011, 04:13:35 AM »
Yeah seen that excellent example Steve, and it definitely helped me loads, it's all in the application of the theory/knowledge and testing out what you know in the music.

Being a musician is a 3 way battle between technical knowledge, musicality and feel. If you are technical but lack soul, I'm sure you won't be asked to play in the orchestra in heaven  ;)  But saying that, 'unlocking' the fretboard, where you can see the notes and scales jump out at you, is like a flashlight on a dark road. Someone likened learning scales to moving to a city. You get to know your little area well, after a while you through away the map. Then you go a little further, discover another area and after a while you throw away that map and move on further. It takes time but the rewards are there.

What's important with your scales and arpeggios is knowing where you're going, your end point. It's in taking those scales and arpeggios and finding out where they fit into the next note/phrase, how they flow into the next. I played around last night, playing long arpeggio runs and trying to bleed them into the next chord, worked well and that stuff turns heads  :)

Whilst I am getting on well with my scales, my biggest weakest is playing by ear and knowing which intervals to go to. Is there a 'best way' to learn your intervals? I use trainear.com which is good, but I wonder if people here have a better way to know your intervals  ?/?

Offline blacklw234

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 246
  • Gender: Male

Re: need help with scales
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2011, 05:45:58 PM »
Not just because its me, but alot of ppl seemed to be helped with this one:

Bass Lesson: Using Scales/Key to find licks


Excellent video. Very easy to follow. Your style is awsome too.  The bass sounds good as well. Nice...
I play a LTD ESP C-305 Bass
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up