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Author Topic: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)  (Read 27443 times)

Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2007, 12:50:55 PM »
I didn't think it was a question to ask...you are correct it is a Eb7add6... ;) 8)

The general concept of building chords is this:

Start with the root and add thirds, then alter each note (aside from the root) up or down a half-step to create the desired tonality.

Hence, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13.  By altering or excluding any note (aside from the root) or combination of notes, we can create any possible chord.

When we talk about chord extensions we are talking about 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths.  2nd, 4th, and 6th fit into scale theory as in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

Think of chords as stacked:
13
11
9
7
5
3
1

Think of scales linearly:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Extensions are after the fact, hence using a number below 7 conflicts with this idea.

In my opinion, what it really comes down to is this - Will everyone interpret my chord symbol the same?  I think the following are all acceptable as I don't think there is any other way to interpret them except Eb, G, (Bb), Db, C:
Eb7(6)
Eb7(add6)
Eb7(13)
Eb7(add13)

As to which one I prefer, it's Eb7(13), simply because using a 6 doesn't fit well with the concept of adding extensions (extensions are above the 7th).

A favorite quote of mine is, "Music theory is just a theory, just like evolution is a theory".  A theory is what we use to explain what we see in nature.  A theory is not a law until it is proved over and over again with the scientific method.  Every theory has holes.  Classical music theory is how classical musicians relate their experience, the same goes for Jazz theory, etc.  There are as many music theories as there are musicians.  I prefer Jazz theory, but of course I probably have my own twist on it.  Theory is about communication.

So why did I bother correcting the chord symbol?  My approach should have been, "I prefer calling it a V7(#5,#9), because..."  I only try to correct chord symbols if I think they create ambiguity in my mind.  It is very subjective, but it goes back to communication.  If we don't talk about it, then we'll never reach a concensus upon a "least ambiguous" theory that allows for effective communication.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Danati, I didn't realize where this would lead! LOL   ;)
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Offline T-Block

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2007, 03:15:48 PM »
Man, I am SOOOO opposite. Theory bores me to tears.  :-\

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, It's an acquired love (like bean ice cream), LOL.  :D
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Offline cas10a

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2007, 03:37:54 PM »
The general concept of building chords is this:

Start with the root and add thirds, then alter each note (aside from the root) up or down a half-step to create the desired tonality.

Hence, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13.  By altering or excluding any note (aside from the root) or combination of notes, we can create any possible chord.

When we talk about chord extensions we are talking about 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths.  2nd, 4th, and 6th fit into scale theory as in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

Think of chords as stacked:
13
11
9
7
5
3
1

Think of scales linearly:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Extensions are after the fact, hence using a number below 7 conflicts with this idea.

In my opinion, what it really comes down to is this - Will everyone interpret my chord symbol the same?  I think the following are all acceptable as I don't think there is any other way to interpret them except Eb, G, (Bb), Db, C:
Eb7(6)
Eb7(add6)
Eb7(13)
Eb7(add13)

As to which one I prefer, it's Eb7(13), simply because using a 6 doesn't fit well with the concept of adding extensions (extensions are above the 7th).

A favorite quote of mine is, "Music theory is just a theory, just like evolution is a theory".  A theory is what we use to explain what we see in nature.  A theory is not a law until it is proved over and over again with the scientific method.  Every theory has holes.  Classical music theory is how classical musicians relate their experience, the same goes for Jazz theory, etc.  There are as many music theories as there are musicians.  I prefer Jazz theory, but of course I probably have my own twist on it.  Theory is about communication.

So why did I bother correcting the chord symbol?  My approach should have been, "I prefer calling it a V7(#5,#9), because..."  I only try to correct chord symbols if I think they create ambiguity in my mind.  It is very subjective, but it goes back to communication.  If we don't talk about it, then we'll never reach a concensus upon a "least ambiguous" theory that allows for effective communication.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Danati, I didn't realize where this would lead! LOL   ;)

All Good Info

COSIGN...what you said

My comment wasn't implying that there was no question to ask by SJ...I thought SJ was simply stating what the chord is called and his statement was already correct...LOL.  Troof, I've seen it both ways...Eb7/6 or Eb7/13...

Offline anointedfingaz

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2007, 07:27:05 PM »
a lively topic lol, i luv discussing theory especially jazz theory and chord structure, harmonization, voicings, etc.  but has anybody ever tried adding a Bmaj chord on top of the Ebdom? I usually play it like this Eb G Db/ Gb Cb Db Gb...it's the same chord but with a majory (for lack of a better word) sound on top...very hip  8)

Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2007, 07:43:05 PM »
a lively topic lol, i luv discussing theory especially jazz theory and chord structure, harmonization, voicings, etc.  but has anybody ever tried adding a Bmaj chord on top of the Ebdom? I usually play it like this Eb G Db/ Gb Cb Db Gb...it's the same chord but with a majory (for lack of a better word) sound on top...very hip  8)

Yeah, that's a slick polychord voicing for a V7(#5,#9) --> b6/I7  (as in B/Eb7 or Ab/C7)

I like to do this...

Db F Bb / Eb Ab C --> DbM9(13)

C E Bb / Eb Ab C --> C7(#5,#9)
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Offline anointedfingaz

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2007, 07:51:38 PM »
i was also taught that you could use major chords minor thirds away from the root on top of a dominant to give it an even more "out of the box" sound...[i.e. Ebdom with Eb, Gb, A, or C (major chords) on top] i guess they come out of the diminished scale and how it's harmonized...i just learned it like two days ago in jazz improv class and i was fooling around with licks using those chords and i was shocked at how crazy it sounded...has anybody else tried that or had more experience with using those kind of voicings or licks in your our music/solos? 

Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2007, 09:54:48 PM »
i was also taught that you could use major chords minor thirds away from the root on top of a dominant to give it an even more "out of the box" sound...[i.e. Ebdom with Eb, Gb, A, or C (major chords) on top] i guess they come out of the diminished scale and how it's harmonized...i just learned it like two days ago in jazz improv class and i was fooling around with licks using those chords and i was shocked at how crazy it sounded...has anybody else tried that or had more experience with using those kind of voicings or licks in your our music/solos? 


Yes, I discussed this in an article on my website (http://freegospelresource.com/music-theory/improvising-with-arpeggios.html)

Here's a handy chart:

D/C7   C9(b5,13)   [II/I7]
Eb/C7  C7(#9)   [bIII/I7]
Gb/C7   C7(b5,b9)   [bV/I7]
Ab/C7  C7(#5,#9)   [bVI/I7]
A/C7   C7(b9,13)   [VI/I7]
Cm/C7   C7(#9)   [i/I7]
Dbm/C7  C7(#5,b9)   [bii/I7]
Ebm/C7   C7(b5,#9)   [biii/I7]
Gbm/C7   C7(b5,b9,13)   [bv/I7]
Gm/C7   C9   [v/I7]
Am/C7   C7(13)   [vi/I7]
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Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2007, 02:01:04 PM »
If you've poked around on my website, you'll notice I need to go through and change some chord names in charts to correctly reflect the right chords.  So please don't jump on me for saying one thing and doing another.   :-[
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Offline cas10a

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2007, 02:48:47 PM »
If you've poked around on my website, you'll notice I need to go through and change some chord names in charts to correctly reflect the right chords.  So please don't jump on me for saying one thing and doing another.   :-[

Yeah...I meant to tell you the first chord I saw on your site should be a D9#15#2... :D ;D

Offline T-Block

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2007, 05:47:23 PM »
Yeah...I meant to tell you the first chord I saw on your site should be a D9#15#2... :D ;D

WOW, what a chord, I gotta add that to my playing, LOL.  :o  ;D  :D
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Offline cas10a

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2007, 09:06:18 AM »
WOW, what a chord, I gotta add that to my playing, LOL.  :o  ;D  :D

What a chord is right and guess what it sounds like?...

A hot mess...LOL... ;) 8)

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2007, 04:00:35 PM »
Sorry for hijacking your thread Danati, I didn't realize where this would lead! LOL   ;)

It's not my thread or my information.. I'm only giving what God gives me to give to others.

I created these cool chords posts to stir up some traffic and conversation in the jazz forum and apparently it has done that so it's purpose has been served.

I'll continue to post chords, mp3, licks, progression and whatever else I'm lead to do but I won't debate theory I'll leave that to the more qualified.  I'll post what I have and that's that.

But everyone keep up the good work.

I just want to help folks add that jazzy flavor to their playing that Jamal at GospelKeyboard.com, Ricky Draper (RickyDraper.com) and others do so well.

Keep practicing everyone.. Enlarge Your Vision and Expect God's Favor in EVERYTHING that you do.. even your playing!!

Offline T-Block

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2007, 08:25:11 PM »
What a chord is right and guess what it sounds like?...

A hot mess...LOL... ;) 8)

It sure does (I can't believe I'm admitting to have tried to actually play this chord).  :D

Possible voicing for anyone who is curious:

D9 #15/#2  =  D-C / E-F-F#-A-C-D#  *use your thumb to play E & F at the same time
Real musicians play in every key!!!
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Offline cas10a

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2007, 12:08:05 PM »
It's not my thread or my information.. I'm only giving what God gives me to give to others.

I created these cool chords posts to stir up some traffic and conversation in the jazz forum and apparently it has done that so it's purpose has been served.

I'll continue to post chords, mp3, licks, progression and whatever else I'm lead to do but I won't debate theory I'll leave that to the more qualified.  I'll post what I have and that's that.

But everyone keep up the good work.

I just want to help folks add that jazzy flavor to their playing that Jamal at GospelKeyboard.com, Ricky Draper (RickyDraper.com) and others do so well.

Keep practicing everyone.. Enlarge Your Vision and Expect God's Favor in EVERYTHING that you do.. even your playing!!


Keep doin' what you doin', It's Gr8 for this forum and don't mind debating with us, It's all good bruh...I'm still learning and its very helpful info that you bring.

It sure does (I can't believe I'm admitting to have tried to actually play this chord).  :D

Possible voicing for anyone who is curious:

D9 #15/#2  =  D-C / E-F-F#-A-C-D#  *use your thumb to play E & F at the same time

I don't believe you actually tried to chord it ?/?...Too funny T...You are the Ultimate Theory Expert!!! :D ;D  You got my vote hands down...

Offline cas10a

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2007, 12:14:47 PM »
Those were just jokes T-Block...

I already know you the man, seriously!

Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2007, 03:44:53 PM »
It's not my thread or my information.. I'm only giving what God gives me to give to others.

I created these cool chords posts to stir up some traffic and conversation in the jazz forum and apparently it has done that so it's purpose has been served.

I'll continue to post chords, mp3, licks, progression and whatever else I'm lead to do but I won't debate theory I'll leave that to the more qualified.  I'll post what I have and that's that.

But everyone keep up the good work.

I just want to help folks add that jazzy flavor to their playing that Jamal at GospelKeyboard.com, Ricky Draper (RickyDraper.com) and others do so well.

Keep practicing everyone.. Enlarge Your Vision and Expect God's Favor in EVERYTHING that you do.. even your playing!!


Yes, thanks for stirring the pot.  As a result, I have grown from it.  :)
http://freegospelresource.com - Free charts, progressions, voicings, theory and organ resources.

Offline T-Block

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2007, 04:32:05 PM »
Those were just jokes T-Block...

I already know you the man, seriously!

HAHAHAHAH, I know u was joking man.  But, you know what they say, some of the best things happen by accident.  You never know when u make up a crazy chord that might be a good one.  ;)  :D
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Offline musallio

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2007, 07:35:13 AM »
That's a sick chord :o 8)

How can me put this & similar chords 2 good use...plz give I an example.
Me needs 2 use these bombs with gr8 care... ;D

thanx..
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Offline 1945 Buescher Aristocrat

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2010, 12:54:21 AM »
Gennimens: 

I fear that this is not a gospel tune, but can any of you enlighten me on just what is going on with the E7#9b13 chord in the last measure of Recordame?  I believe it is very like a tri-tone substitution for the Bb7, but it also is a nice minor turnaround leading into the A- of the first four measures of the next chorus (and it is a very soulful song, even if it isn't gospel).  Any help? 
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