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Author Topic: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5  (Read 6278 times)

Offline Fenix

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 10:42:27 AM »
I've gained qyt alot in these few minutes I've spent reading this stuff.. 8)

I know I could be wrong, but I'll ask anyway:

based on what the theory wiz (rspindy) said, am I wrong in calling this chord an xm#5 (or is it based more on where you are coming from & where you're headed?)

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks in advance.

I don't see it as a minor chord. I see it as an altered dominant 7th chord with a #5 and #9.
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Offline musallio

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 10:58:14 AM »
I don't see it as a minor chord. I see it as an altered dominant 7th chord with a #5 and #9.

Ok, I get U well man..So are you saying that it is based on the sound 1 hears i.o.ws?

I'll have to test it l8a to hear the sound..

Just another thought---how would an Fm#5 look like then ?/? ;D
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Offline T-Block

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 11:58:57 AM »
based on what the theory wiz (rspindy) said, am I wrong in calling this chord an xm#5 (or is it based more on where you are coming from & where you're headed?)

Yeah, I'd say you're wrong because u have two 3rds present, an A (major 3rd) and an Ab (minor 3rd.  Look at the notes of the chord:

F, A, Db, Eb, Ab

You see those 2 A's?  Well, that should tell u something.  This is one of those times where it helps to rename the notes:

F, A, C#, Eb, G#

If you look at it this way, you can see that there is only one 3rd present, which is the major 3rd.  So, calling the chord a minor of any kind is wrong.  Does that make sense?

Just another thought---how would an Fm#5 look like then ?/? ;D

Well, I've never heard of such a chord, but I guess it would look like this:  F-Ab-C-C#

But then that would just be a C#/Db major 7 chord in 1st inversion, so it's really an unnecessary chord name, LOL.
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Offline chevonee

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 02:45:08 PM »
Cause I can DO that.  8)
Indeed my friend!!! ;D
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Offline B3Wannabe

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2008, 06:08:51 PM »
Ok. Ok. Sheesh.


You don't have to talk about me on the sly! :)

I'll concede the "m#5" name. I always have look at the bass note. If these an E in the bass, then I'll name the chord as an E, in my head. It doesn't make it "right" though, but oh well....You learn something new every day.

Offline elio

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2008, 12:10:44 AM »
I agree with T-Block - best to call it a major chord.

As a curiosity, the #9 chord (without the #5) is also known in pop/rock as the Jimi Hendrix chord: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendrix_chord
From the page: "The chord is harmonically ambiguous, as it effectively is a major and a minor chord simultaneously"

Offline Fenix

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2008, 08:30:15 AM »
Ok. Ok. Sheesh.


You don't have to talk about me on the sly! :)


I am so confused.  ?/? ?/? ?/?
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Offline musallio

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2008, 09:06:29 AM »
I am so confused.  ?/? ?/? ?/?

Fenny, I think it's because T-Bone said he's never heard of a "xm#5", & B3 happened to have given an example of an Em#5 somewhere ;)

Yeah, I'd say you're wrong because u have two 3rds present, an A (major 3rd) and an Ab (minor 3rd.  Look at the notes of the chord:

F, A, Db, Eb, Ab

You see those 2 A's?  Well, that should tell u something.  This is one of those times where it helps to rename the notes:

F, A, C#, Eb, G#

If you look at it this way, you can see that there is only one 3rd present, which is the major 3rd.  So, calling the chord a minor of any kind is wrong.  Does that make sense?

Well, I've never heard of such a chord, but I guess it would look like this:  F-Ab-C-C#

But then that would just be a C#/Db major 7 chord in 1st inversion, so it's really an unnecessary chord name, LOL.

Ok T-Bone, all that you said makes purr-fect sense, thanks. It's just that I was looking at the notation in general (as you can see, I made no reference to the specific chord, merely the x#5#9..

I'll take the guru's word when he says there is no xm#5 (by implication..& can be viewed as the #Vmaj7)...But this leads me to another question:

If that /should that be the case, then why do all the music teachers say that ideally you should know the root so that the chord is named after the root?
So assuming that we had F as the root & Ab, Db, Eb fo the other notes, woud this not be an Fm#5 then (or would we have to call it a Db add9?)
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Offline Fenix

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2008, 09:17:50 AM »
Fenny, I think it's because T-Bone said he's never heard of a "xm#5", & B3 happened to have given an example of an Em#5 somewhere ;)

Oh, now i geddit!!!!!!!!!

From what i have been noticing, it seems most of these alterations to chords are based off of the dominant 7 form of the chord. Is that right?

E.g the #9-#5 chord MUST have a b7 in there somewhere for it to have that "true" #9-#5 sound, right?

OK, lemme rephrase. Is it true to say that IF you choose to alter a chord by introducing a note that is not in the diatonic scale the chord is based off of, then the chord you alter must have a flat 7 in there somewhere?
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Offline B3Wannabe

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2008, 09:49:01 AM »
Nope.

If you alter the 3rd, the chord becomes a minor or suspended.
If you alter the 5th, the chord becomes diminished or augmented.
If you alter the 7th, the chord becomes dominant, unless the 3rd is minor, then it just becomes a min7. Flatting the 7th twice forms a dim7, if the 3rd is minor.

Those three degrees can change the actual chord name.

The 2nd, 4th, and 6th are less important degrees. If you add a 7th, they become 9, 11, and 13, which is like adding "7" to those degrees. (This is the way I look at it.)

When you alter these you don't really change the type of chord. You're just extending it.

If the chord was originally a dominant, and you add a 9, it'll still be dominant. It'll just be a dominant9.

Offline musallio

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2008, 10:10:41 AM »
Oh, now i geddit!!!!!!!!!

From what i have been noticing, it seems most of these alterations to chords are based off of the dominant 7 form of the chord. Is that right?

E.g the #9-#5 chord MUST have a b7 in there somewhere for it to have that "true" #9-#5 sound, right?

OK, lemme rephrase. Is it true to say that IF you choose to alter a chord by introducing a note that is not in the diatonic scale the chord is based off of, then the chord you alter must have a flat 7 in there somewhere?

wo-ryt Fenbox, B3's answer is correct, but it left me wondering if you were asking what I was thinking you were asking :-\ :-\

I would have answered "yes", but now my answer is "yes &/no" depending on what you meant..(hence the importance of terminology..eg, alterations vs extensions etc)..i hope this is not confusing to anyone.. ?/?

The way I had originally understood your question (based on your last paragraph) was that you were asking more about extensions (9,11, adds etc), whether the way they are classified/ notated (ie. dominant or major) is based on the type of 7th we have..

I might not come across clear, but I'd like to believe that U understand the principles.
What you should really make sure you understand though is the stuff that T-Block was saying to me (VERY RELAVANT & USEFUL in demystifying this naming game ;)) & what B3 has just said (THE WHOLE NAMING THEORY in a nutshell for ya ;))
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Offline T-Block

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2008, 12:01:05 PM »
If that /should that be the case, then why do all the music teachers say that ideally you should know the root so that the chord is named after the root?
So assuming that we had F as the root & Ab, Db, Eb fo the other notes, woud this not be an Fm#5 then (or would we have to call it a Db add9?)

The root tells u what inversion you are in, if ur in one at all, and lets u know where u are in the song.  So, using your example if F was the root, then you would have:  F, Ab, C#, Eb  which would form an Fm7 (#5), i think.  Just realize that it's gonna sound major because it is also a Dbadd9 chord in 2nd inversion.

Sound will also give u a hint as to what the root is.  If you are calling a chord a minor type chord, but it sounds major, u should rethink your root, and vice versa.

That's my personal answer.
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Offline T-Block

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2008, 12:02:39 PM »
Nope.

If you alter the 3rd, the chord becomes a minor or suspended.
If you alter the 5th, the chord becomes diminished or augmented.
If you alter the 7th, the chord becomes dominant, unless the 3rd is minor, then it just becomes a min7. Flatting the 7th twice forms a dim7, if the 3rd is minor.

Those three degrees can change the actual chord name.

The 2nd, 4th, and 6th are less important degrees. If you add a 7th, they become 9, 11, and 13, which is like adding "7" to those degrees. (This is the way I look at it.)

When you alter these you don't really change the type of chord. You're just extending it.

If the chord was originally a dominant, and you add a 9, it'll still be dominant. It'll just be a dominant9.

Perfect explanation, couldn't have said it better myself.  ;)
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Offline musallio

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2008, 12:06:52 PM »
The root tells u what inversion you are in, if ur in one at all, and lets u know where u are in the song.  So, using your example if F was the root, then you would have:  F, Ab, C#, Eb  which would form an Fm7 (#5), i think.  Just realize that it's gonna sound major because it is also a Dbadd9 chord in 2nd inversion.

Sound will also give u a hint as to what the root is.  If you are calling a chord a minor type chord, but it sounds major, u should rethink your root, and vice versa.

That's my personal answer.

Perfect answer, it's like you come into the brain of the questioner & really attend to the root of their concerns..
So sound is primary.

Great answer T..
Thanks.

btw, thanks for the correction on that Fm7(#5)
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Offline T-Block

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2008, 12:20:49 PM »
it's like you come into the brain of the questioner & really attend to the root of their concerns..

That's what a good teacher is supposed to do, LOL.  ;)
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Offline BroAllan

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2008, 08:16:35 PM »
And that's why I love LGM!!!  :D :D :D

Offline chevonee

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2008, 11:47:42 PM »
And that's why I love LGM!!!  :D :D :D
Me TOO!!!! ;)
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Offline organman88

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2008, 08:49:54 AM »
im gonna tell you the easiest way first you have to know your major scales there are 8 notes in a major scale and when you go over and continue to play the scale more than one octave thats were those big numbers come in for example in the key of C major

1 C 
2 D 9 D
3 E 10 E
4 F 11 F
5 G 12 G
6 A 13 A (IT USUALLY NEVER GOES HIGHIER THAN 13)
7 B 14 B
8 C 15 C
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Offline musallio

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2008, 06:39:43 AM »
im gonna tell you the easiest way first you have to know your major scales there are 8 notes in a major scale and when you go over and continue to play the scale more than one octave thats were those big numbers come in for example in the key of C major

1 C 
2 D 9 D
3 E 10 E
4 F 11 F
5 G 12 G
6 A 13 A (IT USUALLY NEVER GOES HIGHIER THAN 13)
7 B 14 B
8 C 15 C

Thanks for sharing this man...But please allow me to play the devil's advocate here:

I understand the way you have explained this stuff because this is how it was 1st explained to me..I liked it & thot wow, finally I've cracked the code to these extended chords..
But then I read more theory, & it told me something different, ie One reall needs any type of 7th note before they can speak of 9ths, 11ths or 13ths since the name i unique to that specific sound provided by the particular 7th note.
In other words, no matter what octave you are playing in, if you don't have that 7th note, then U are still playing that 2, 4 or 6, unless if U say add 9 or something of that effect.

In other words, I needn't go to the next octave to say I'm playing a 9th (eg. C/D-E-G-B)..
But man, I get what you are saying.
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Offline rspindy

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Re: What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2008, 11:37:51 AM »
Haven't had a chance to get on for a while.

Anyway, Musallio asked about an "xm #5"

Let's take a look.

Cm is   C Eb G.  If we were to raise the 5th (G) a half-step we get C Eb G#.   What is another name for a G#?  Ab.  C Eb Ab is an Ab major chord in first inversion.  Technically there is no Cm #5 since it is the same as an Ab major.

But, as I have thought about it, there are some contexts where a Cm #5 would make more sense than Ab.

In major, we've all heard the harmonic cliche -- C  C+  C6.   The analogous minor pattern would be -- Cm  Ab/C Cm6 (listen to the James Bond Theme).  Though the Ab/C is technically what we would call it, it is acting like the major version.  The melodic line is ascending chromatically -- G - G# - A -- over a static C bass,  which is clearer functionally than -- G - Ab - A.

That's one of the problems with the convention for naming chords.  They name discrete combinations of notes but do not always indicate the harmonic function when two or more chords are combined.  That has been a problem with our entire system of notation once music became more and more chromatic.

 And [as he goes off on a tangent] there are instances, particularly in some types of modulation from one key to another, where a note or chord enters as one note or chord and leaves as its enharmonic equivalent.  An example would be to start out as if we are doing our musical cliche -- C  C+  C6 ...  except  The C+ (and its G# melody) leaves as an Ab+ (with and Ab melody) followed by Dbm7 Gbx7 CbM7 (we have just modulated from C major to Cb major.   [End of tangent].

So, in the process of "picking nits", I would actually weigh in that a m #5 does exist, but would caution anyone from writing it down for others to see lest they think one is a bit "touched in the head"
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