What is the formula for this chord? F7 #9#5

[chevonee]

Ok guys let me say to start out, I have done a search but I couldn't seem to find the answer to my question. My question is:
What is the formula to a C, F, E, etc. 7 #9#5 and how do you come up with it? I know that the chords for F7 #9#5 (F/A Db Eb Ab) but I have no idea how to come up with that chord for myself using the major scale. Please help or if this answer has already been posted please post the link. God bless you all and thanks in advance for any help that you provide.

[Fenix]

I LOVE this chord!!!

Here is the formula, if i'm wrong, mebbe someone will correct me (at their own risk );

1+3+#5+b7+#9

O course when i play a #9 #5 chord i play it this way;

LH- 1+5+b7

RH- #5+ #9

Its a cool chord

[Fenix]

I also forgot to tell you that you don't need the 5 there but i like it cuz t creates some dissonance. I don't really like dissonance and this is dissonant enough for me.

Anyway here is a GREAT website to get chord voicings: Chord Voicings

 

[B3Wannabe]

If you play a major triad, two whole steps down from another chord, you'll get a #5#9 type chord. Go three whole steps and you get a b5b9 type chord.

F-A-Eb \ Ab-Db-F = F7 (#5 #9)
F-A-Eb \ Gb-B-Eb = F7 (b5 b9)

[Mysteryman]

I kinda dont understand the question but I think its supposed to be F7#5#9

[Fenix]

I kinda dont understand the question but I think its supposed to be F7#5#9

I don't think it makes any difference which one comes first; the #9 or the #5. I finger it with the #9  before the #5. 

[rspindy]

Once you know your basic 7th chords (Maj7, dominant 7, m7, m7b5, dim7) Most of the alterations occur in the dominant 7 chord (1 - 3- 5- b7).  In reality only two notes can be altered.  The 3 can become a 4 (for the x7 sus 4) and the 5 can become #5 or b5.  If you alter the 1, you are starting on a new root and therefore a new chord family.  If you alter the 7, you are changing the chord quality.  And any alteration of the third, OTHER THAN the sus4, (i.e. to b3) changes to a minor quality.  So, a chord that is, say C7#5 simply means to raise the 5 one-half step.  and a C7b5 simply means to lower the 5 one-half step.  Important note:  in chords, the # and b signs mean to raise or lower the step that naturally occurs in the chord.  Thus a B7 #5 is B D# F##(or G) A.  A B7 b5 is B D# F(natural) A (not an F0b or E).

Your next step is to learn all of the extensions -- 9, 11, 13 -- as they naturally occur in the chord scale.  Thus a C 9,11,13 (C13) is C E G Bb D F A.  A B 9,11,13 (B13) is B D# F# A C# E G#.  A "#" with any of these numbers means to RAISE that chord member one-half step, and a "b" means to lower that by one-half step.  In a C7 #9, the D becomes D#.  In the B7 #9, the C# becomes C## (same as D).  A C7 b9, the D becomes Db.  A B7 b9, the C# becomes C natural.

Basically, you are just "following the instructions."  Find the chord as it would be without alterations (C7 #5, #9 -- find the C7, 9 or C9 chord then follow the instructions for raising the indicated chord members.)

A C7 #5,#9 is C E G# Bb D#.  A B7 #5,#9 is B D# F##(G) A C##(D).  A # anything (#1, #4, #5, #9, #11)  means to raise that chord member one-half from the member that naturally occurs (#4 -- often indicated +4, does occur in some jazz charts).  A b anything (b1, b5, b9, b13) means to lower that chord member.

Note, there is no b11 (same as the major 3rd) and there is no #13 (same as the b7).

Here are the basic 7th qualities and the most standard alterations and tensions (9, 11, 13).

Major 7  -- #5, 9, #11, 13
dominant 7 -- sus4, sus2, #4 or b5, #5, b9, 9, #9, 11, #11, 13 -- a b13 is occasionally seen.  It is the same as #5
minor 7 -- 9, 11, occasionally 13 or b13.
m7b5 -- 9, occasionally b9
diminished 7 -- 9, occasionally b9

note a #9 is the same as the minor 3rd so it would be redundant in any of the minor chords.
The major 7 does generally not use natural 11 because the tritone between the 7 and the 11 has the effect of creating a (9), 11, 13 chord with the 5 as root.   CMaj7 11 -- C E G B D F = G7 (9), 11,13 -- G B D G (A) C E

[513TrueMan]

Once you know your basic 7th chords (Maj7, dominant 7, m7, m7b5, dim7) Most of the alterations occur in the dominant 7 chord (1 - 3- 5- b7).  In reality only two notes can be altered.  The 3 can become a 4 (for the x7 sus 4) and the 5 can become #5 or b5.  If you alter the 1, you are starting on a new root and therefore a new chord family.  If you alter the 7, you are changing the chord quality.  And any alteration of the third, OTHER THAN the sus4, (i.e. to b3) changes to a minor quality.  So, a chord that is, say C7#5 simply means to raise the 5 one-half step.  and a C7b5 simply means to lower the 5 one-half step.  Important note:  in chords, the # and b signs mean to raise or lower the step that naturally occurs in the chord.  Thus a B7 #5 is B D# F##(or G) A.  A B7 b5 is B D# F(natural) A (not an F0b or E).

Your next step is to learn all of the extensions -- 9, 11, 13 -- as they naturally occur in the chord scale.  Thus a C 9,11,13 (C13) is C E G Bb D F A.  A B 9,11,13 (B13) is B D# F# A C# E G#.  A "#" with any of these numbers means to RAISE that chord member one-half step, and a "b" means to lower that by one-half step.  In a C7 #9, the D becomes D#.  In the B7 #9, the C# becomes C## (same as D).  A C7 b9, the D becomes Db.  A B7 b9, the C# becomes C natural.

Basically, you are just "following the instructions."  Find the chord as it would be without alterations (C7 #5, #9 -- find the C7, 9 or C9 chord then follow the instructions for raising the indicated chord members.)

A C7 #5,#9 is C E G# Bb D#.  A B7 #5,#9 is B D# F##(G) A C##(D).  A # anything (#1, #4, #5, #9, #11)  means to raise that chord member one-half from the member that naturally occurs (#4 -- often indicated +4, does occur in some jazz charts).  A b anything (b1, b5, b9, b13) means to lower that chord member.

Note, there is no b11 (same as the major 3rd) and there is no #13 (same as the b7).

Here are the basic 7th qualities and the most standard alterations and tensions (9, 11, 13).

Major 7  -- #5, 9, #11, 13
dominant 7 -- sus4, sus2, #4 or b5, #5, b9, 9, #9, 11, #11, 13 -- a b13 is occasionally seen.  It is the same as #5
minor 7 -- 9, 11, occasionally 13 or b13.
m7b5 -- 9, occasionally b9
diminished 7 -- 9, occasionally b9

note a #9 is the same as the minor 3rd so it would be redundant in any of the minor chords.
The major 7 does generally not use natural 11 because the tritone between the 7 and the 11 has the effect of creating a (9), 11, 13 chord with the 5 as root.   CMaj7 11 -- C E G B D F = G7 (9), 11,13 -- G B D G (A) C E

This was a perfect answer.  Thanks for sharing the knowledge!!

[sjonathan02]

My biggest question is, how does one determine which chord quality one should use.


For instance, I like (well, LOVE) the sound of a G13 (b9) chord going to a C min chord. But, I ALSO like the sound of that chord going to a C Maj chord. For me and my ear development, it seems to depend on the "melody" note.

So, how does that work?

BTW, for the G13 (b9) to the C min, I guess you could say we're in Eb Maj. For the other chord progression, you could say we're in C. 

[rspindy]

My biggest question is, how does one determine which chord quality one should use.


For instance, I like (well, LOVE) the sound of a G13 (b9) chord going to a C min chord. But, I ALSO like the sound of that chord going to a C Maj chord. For me and my ear development, it seems to depend on the "melody" note.

So, how does that work?

BTW, for the G13 (b9) to the C min, I guess you could say we're in Eb Maj. For the other chord progression, you could say we're in C. 

First, the melody note is a prime consideration.  If the melody not for and indicate G7 is an A natural, then you obviously have a conflict between the Ab of the G13 (b9) and the A nat. melody.  If the melody note is otherwise not in conflict, then your choice is guided by the character of the sound that you want to convey.   G13 (b9) is the standard form of the 9 of a G chord when you are in C minor (C natural and harmonic minor scales contain Ab).  In the case of G13 (b9) to C maj -- the additional pull of the b9 (Ab) to the 5th of C (G) is compelling.

Also note that more often than not, the primary melody notes will be the 1, 3, or 5, sometimes 7, only occasionally 9, 13, and least often 11.  You have choices of alterations and tensions for any non-melody note in the chord.

Also note that if you are playing with a guitarist, you will need to come into agreement on some of these.  If you are playing solo you have a 64 color box of crayons.

Examples:

G7 with a B (3)melody.  You can try altering the 5 (#5, b5), the 9 (#9, b9), and/or the 11 (#11 since b11 = 3 or B).  You can also add the 13, but it is not altered).  All of these are also available if the melody is F (7)

G7 with a D (5) melody.  You can try adding and altering any of the above except, of course the 5.

To go even a step further.  In a II - V situation or equivalent (Dm7 - G7) if the melody with the Dm7 is anything but F nat., you can actually often substitute  a IIx7 (D7).  Add a #9 and you get that wonderful bluesy. Maj vs. min 3rd (D / F# C F)  That can even sometimes work if the melody IS on F nat.

Also generally, if you are using an altered 5 you use an altered 9 (#5 or b5 with #9 or b9 not nat. 9) and either case calls for #11, not nat. 11.

Because you have choices, you can use these variations in chord colors to help build the intensity of an arrangement.  You may start of with fairly tame chords -- diatonic 5ths, 9ths, etc. and as your arrangement grows in intensity begin adding more chromatic tensions.  Beyond that, there are no rules beyond your ears, taste, and intentions for the sound.

[Fenix]

NINJA!!!!!!!!!!!! That info you gave up there is PRICELESS!!!! I feel like i should pay for it.

Wow, as soon as i get home, i'm gonna try it.

[sjonathan02]

First, the melody note is a prime consideration.  If the melody not for and indicate G7 is an A natural, then you obviously have a conflict between the Ab of the G13 (b9) and the A nat. melody.  If the melody note is otherwise not in conflict, then your choice is guided by the character of the sound that you want to convey.   G13 (b9) is the standard form of the 9 of a G chord when you are in C minor (C natural and harmonic minor scales contain Ab).  In the case of G13 (b9) to C maj -- the additional pull of the b9 (Ab) to the 5th of C (G) is compelling.

Also note that more often than not, the primary melody notes will be the 1, 3, or 5, sometimes 7, only occasionally 9, 13, and least often 11.  You have choices of alterations and tensions for any non-melody note in the chord.

Also note that if you are playing with a guitarist, you will need to come into agreement on some of these.  If you are playing solo you have a 64 color box of crayons.

Examples:

G7 with a B (3)melody.  You can try altering the 5 (#5, b5), the 9 (#9, b9), and/or the 11 (#11 since b11 = 3 or B).  You can also add the 13, but it is not altered).  All of these are also available if the melody is F (7)

G7 with a D (5) melody.  You can try adding and altering any of the above except, of course the 5.

To go even a step further.  In a II - V situation or equivalent (Dm7 - G7) if the melody with the Dm7 is anything but F nat., you can actually often substitute  a IIx7 (D7).  Add a #9 and you get that wonderful bluesy. Maj vs. min 3rd (D / F# C F)  That can even sometimes work if the melody IS on F nat.

Also generally, if you are using an altered 5 you use an altered 9 (#5 or b5 with #9 or b9 not nat. 9) and either case calls for #11, not nat. 11.

Because you have choices, you can use these variations in chord colors to help build the intensity of an arrangement.  You may start of with fairly tame chords -- diatonic 5ths, 9ths, etc. and as your arrangement grows in intensity begin adding more chromatic tensions.  Beyond that, there are no rules beyond your ears, taste, and intentions for the sound.

I'm choking on all of this meat. Gonna. have. to. print. it. out. 

[Fenix]

I'm choking on all of this meat. Gonna. have. to. print. it. out. 

For real!!! Take small bites like me.

[chevonee]

Thanks everyone !!! I'm still sort of mystified right now...but I know that it will all click very shortly. Jermaine Griggs wrote this chord as #9 #5, which is why I wrote it that way but now I know that you could write it as a #5 #9.  Again thank you all for your help. Stay blessed!!!



Oh yeah and Mr. Grammar Wizard, how you gone go and high-jacck a sistahs thread like dat...YOu KNoW I'm KiDdInG, I HOPE!

[sjonathan02]

Thanks everyone !!! I'm still sort of mystified right now...but I know that it will all click very shortly. Jermaine Griggs wrote this chord as #9 #5, which is why I wrote it that way but now I know that you could write it as a #5 #9.  Again thank you all for your help. Stay blessed!!!



Oh yeah and Mr. Grammar Wizard, how you gone go and high-jacck a sistahs thread like dat...YOu KNoW I'm KiDdInG, I HOPE!

Cause I can DO that. 

[T-Block]

Wow, I'm late to the party.  Looks like business has already been taken care of.  Thanks rspindy and everyone else for stepping in and dropping some serious knowledge bombs.

And for you chevonee, just in case u didn't get everything that was said here, just remember that when u see a weird chord symbol, take it apart piece by piece then put it together.  So, using your chord example:

F7 #9#5 =  F7 (F dominant 7th chord) + #9 (raised 9) + #5 (raised 5)

F7 = F-A-C-Eb, *F-A-Eb  *the 5th can be omitted

#9 = G#

#5 = C#

Put them together:  F-A-C#-Eb-G#

Simple right?

[T-Block]

Also, some chords may be hard to recognize because of enharmonic note spellings.  So, I'll use what u originally posted for the F7 #9#5 chord:

F / A-Db-Eb-Ab

If u change that Db to a C#, u have your #5.  If you change your Ab to a G#, u have your #9.  Just be aware of that, not everyone spells chords correctly.  Even myself sometimes spell chords using enharmonics, that's just so I can match the key of the song.

Here is a post where I explained chord symbols for u and anyone else who needs it:

Chord Symbols:  http://forums.learngospelmusic.com/index.php/topic,27648.msg193581.html#msg193581

[chevonee]

Thanks very much Mr. Block that helps alot. Sometimes I have the tendancy (sp?) to make things harder than they are....

[Fenix]

Cause I can DO that. 

So YOU are the Grammar Wizard!!!! I was always wondering who one earth this Grammar Wiz was.

[musallio]

note a #9 is the same as the minor 3rd so it would be redundant in any of the minor chords.
The major 7 does generally not use natural 11 because the tritone between the 7 and the 11 has the effect of creating a (9), 11, 13 chord with the 5 as root.   CMaj7 11 -- C E G B D F = G7 (9), 11,13 -- G B D G (A) C E

I've gained qyt alot in these few minutes I've spent reading this stuff..

I know I could be wrong, but I'll ask anyway:

based on what the theory wiz (rspindy) said, am I wrong in calling this chord an xm#5 (or is it based more on where you are coming from & where you're headed?)

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks in advance.