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Author Topic: Again with the despair  (Read 4889 times)

Offline jeremyr

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2008, 12:41:50 PM »
Once again, I agree with Uriahl. Jeremy, I feel your pain too doc. I've done the same with my church. Beleive it or not, I'm the main keyboard player and don't play the bass there. I still don't get respect.

honestly, i could care less about getting respect.  I just want us to take the service to another level.  What they do isn't what's best for the church.  Period.  It's even embarrassing sometimes.
Somebody put me in the key of E#

Offline floaded27

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2008, 01:05:37 PM »
  • Get someone to get you recordings of the material that is in play.
  • Take a recorder to rehearsals and record the keyboard parts.
  • If you're not ready for a certain song, just say you're not ready.  The interesting thing is, as soon as you do, two or three others will say "ya know, we could use some time to tighten up that one part"

mal, i been at this church all my life. 26 1/2 years now. so im definitely not new to the church. i only been playing bass for a year now, but i was singing in the choir before that. i can get the music myself, i dont need nobody to make me a CD, just let me know the songs. the problem with that is that the choir, P&W team feel that ANYTHING that has ever been sang in that church from the present all the way back to it coming into existence (late 60's) is fair game. due to limited memory and mid 40's leaders i'd fairly estimate that realistically goes back somewhere in the 90's. So i cant possibly put together a 15 year culmination of songs plus stay on top of anything new just in case they pull it out on sunday morning. the organist be fakin it the majority of the time by chording the exact melody. i could repeat that just by singing the song. $60 bucks for a recorder saved.

a little secret, my home church hasn't rehearsed really in months. I don't understand why, but we be putting songs together on sunday mornings. at this moment, I've been offered to play for another church. Some people just don't get it, so you'll have to work pass them.  If someone has BETJ, check out the show Studio Jams. Its a great show to watch and understand how to play at the spare of the moment like professionals. I was watching it at I typed this post.

they used to do that too, not have rehearsal for months, but u gotta sing every sunday. i told them that need to chill. and if u notice in studio jams, they communicate with each other and discuss what they want to do, and have a mini rehearsal before they record. for us its like we comin in and going straight in the booth and hitting the record button with no preparation at all. and my thing if just guys jammin put at least that much effort for just a jam, why cant even that little bit be done and this is supposed to be for God?

youv'e got to stop adding a significance to a situation that simply doesnt exist!....if no one is pressing you for this structure that you feel a need for....then try not to make yourself stress over it.
surely it would be nice if it wasnt that way every time.....but in your case ...they just dont see the structure as importantly as just getting the thing done in a musical fashion.

i love those old school songs. just earlier i was listening to the clark sisters "a praying spirit" that had that vibe. but just flying off the handle uncontrolled and unstructured every week doesnt make me a better musician. thats the thing i tell my drummer cause he gets roll and fill happy to the point where it gets excessive because he has limited structure and foundation in his playing. and when i go play with other skilled musicians they know my role in the song and depend on me to do my part. and when u constantly surrounded by bad habits u gotta constantly fight so that you dont take them on. if i was playing for someone in a show or on a recording, i cant tell them "i dont need the material, i'll just wing it when i get up there". and there are still some gospel songs with a strong definitive bassline. not as much as those but its there and missed if its not played.

in my case they don't consider me nor the drummer important.  It's a shame too since we've had to hold service up serval times while the organist wasn't there.  They don't care if me and the drummer don't know what's going on at all. As long as the organist is happy they are happy (even if we aren't playing on the same page or able to communicate with each other  ::) ).
my case in point. and they was waiting for me to play the songs so they could start rehearsal because neither the drummer or the organist was there. so all the sidebar talk with the organist is really what ticked me off because he wasnt even on time for rehearsal. i told them i couldve been petty and not showed up for rehearsal since they did me like that, and nobody wouldve rehearsed cause im the one with the keys to let them in the church, but i know thats not proper behavior for a man of God. so i just sat there while they had to go through the first half of the rehearsal acapella with no drums.

i guess God knows what he's doing. i wish he'd let me in on it or give me strength.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline floaded27

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2008, 01:18:10 PM »
honestly, i could care less about getting respect.  I just want us to take the service to another level.  What they do isn't what's best for the church.  Period.  It's even embarrassing sometimes.

DUDE, this is where im at!!!!! Yeah i do feel what they do is disrespectful, but by doing that, you cant get no further than where ur at now. How can u say "we'll slap something together" and "i want the Holy Spirit to move" in the same sentence? I feel that i need to be diligent in my craft for God to give the increase, not just expecting him to put the anointing on my "winging it" just because its sunday and i happen to be doing what im doing in church. Now if a preacher/minister/pastor told u he expect someone to be delivered through his message that he gonna slap together 2 minutes before he preach, u'd look at him like he crazy. well when im on my bass im a minister too. when im on my fender or my schecter, its like i brought my black bible or my brown bible.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline dhagler

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2008, 01:19:26 PM »
So many good posts.  Uriah really hit the nail on the head in that if we're not too careful we could take our role too seriously and get stressed out.  We all strive to be professionals and we all want to make the best contribution possible to the song.

Also, I think all of us deal with some adversity in our playing situations.  For me, it's playing with a keyboardist who doesn't like to hear herself through the monitor so she likes the house volume to be ear-bleedingly loud AND she wants me to turn my volume down.  I don't go through the house so I have to keep my volume up.  We went back and forth and I finally told her, "I am not going to turn my volume down. We will have to find some other way for you to be able to hear yourself."  Jeremy said in his post he retired from his position but he continues to play.  Sometimes you have to reposition yourself, and floaded you may have to do that to keep playing (which I believe that you want to continue to do). 

I agree with DWBass and Jeremy that structure, collaboration, and communication are better than an absence of any or all of those qualities.  But if I can't get them, I am not going to stop playing.  I will simply play the songs the best I can and call it a day.  God knows my heart and he knows why I started playing bass in the first place.  We are part of a larger whole, the whole being offering praises to God.

"Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee."  [Acts 3:6]

Offline jeremyr

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2008, 01:50:29 PM »
So many good posts.  Uriah really hit the nail on the head in that if we're not too careful we could take our role too seriously and get stressed out.  We all strive to be professionals and we all want to make the best contribution possible to the song.
 [Acts 3:6]

I'm not taking a pot shot at anyone, but I believe that everyone involved in the service should take their role seriously. We're in a position to show people the love of God through our music and help usher in his spirit, so with that being said , I don't think that winging it is good enough at all.  God gave us his best, so why don't we give him ours?!?!?

It would be different if people actually put forth an effort and stuff still sounded bad, but my problem lies with that people don't want to put for the effort to minister ESPECIALLY when it's the MOM that's in charge!!!  People get to comfortable and they just want to get up and there and pull out the status quo that they've established for themselves and the church some xx years ago.  I personally can't stand when people just wing it when they're suppose to be dedicated.  If you put forth your best effort and you still sound bad, then at least you know that you're giving it your all.   If you KNOW you can sound better and you're just winging it then lets face it, you need to find a way to make some changes.

I personally see it as this.  You know if you're church is being effective in the community, and if it isn't and you're still doing the same things as when it wasn't as effective you need to step back and look at the scenario.
Somebody put me in the key of E#

Offline uriahsmusic

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2008, 02:19:40 PM »
I'm not taking a pot shot at anyone, but I believe that everyone involved in the service should take their role seriously. We're in a position to show people the love of God through our music and help usher in his spirit, so with that being said , I don't think that winging it is good enough at all.  God gave us his best, so why don't we give him ours?!?!?

It would be different if people actually put forth an effort and stuff still sounded bad, but my problem lies with that people don't want to put for the effort to minister ESPECIALLY when it's the MOM that's in charge!!!  People get to comfortable and they just want to get up and there and pull out the status quo that they've established for themselves and the church some xx years ago.  I personally can't stand when people just wing it when they're suppose to be dedicated.  If you put forth your best effort and you still sound bad, then at least you know that you're giving it your all.   If you KNOW you can sound better and you're just winging it then lets face it, you need to find a way to make some changes.

I personally see it as this.  You know if you're church is being effective in the community, and if it isn't and you're still doing the same things as when it wasn't as effective you need to step back and look at the scenario.

.....I hear ya...but where does it end?....when are you serious and who decides if you are or not?.....By the way....winging it comes in levels.....I think veryone should bring their best....but the notion that one level of organization is better that another is suspect!

......They didnt give me a cd and week to work it out?.....Please...you had better practice at home and bring it....cuz in most Black churches you are not getting a lead sheet....you get the key....and thats only if the organist has a clue...and stays in one key......

....nothing against organization but...it has little place in a fast paced constantly changing enviornment like a typical Black church sevice.....

Offline jeremyr

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2008, 02:25:45 PM »
.....I hear ya...but where does it end?....when are you serious and who decides if you are or not?.....By the way....winging it comes in levels.....I think veryone should bring their best....but the notion that one level of organization is better that another is suspect!

......They didnt give me a cd and week to work it out?.....Please...you had better practice at home and bring it....cuz in most Black churches you are not getting a lead sheet....you get the key....and thats only if the organist has a clue...and stays in one key......

....nothing against organization but...it has little place in a fast paced constantly changing enviornment like a typical Black church sevice.....

The "where does it end" question is a very good one that I asked myself.  I think if you saw how some of our songs go you'd see some with winging it to the extreme.  There are songs we do every single week, but the choir songs can get VERRRRRY rough at times.  The CD thing never bothers me at all, because I usually have all the songs already. 

I would barely call my church a fast paced constantly changing environment...LOL.  Which is what makes it worst.

My very big problem is that when you notice that something isn't being done correctly or could be done better, and when you say "lets try this" it's completely ignored because they don't care and are satisfied with the status quo. 

I will agree that there will always be some sort of "winging it" and honestly that isn't what bothers me, it's the lackadaisical attitude about everything else.
Somebody put me in the key of E#

Offline jonesl78

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2008, 02:38:36 PM »
today once again the nonsense with the P&W team has taken me over the edge. the coming to rehearsal with lists of songs to go over without even telling me in advance so i could learn them, having these side chats with the organist regarding what songs to do as if me and the drummer arent musicians as well, and then just totally being unprepared. i flipped on them in rehearsal and didnt play. i didnt want to bother trying to fake songs, and then when they wanted me to play a song that the know i rock, i refused to play. why should i just sit in rehearsal twiddling my thumbs till u snap ur fingers and i just start playing "yes mr. boss man sir". come on.

and the response from both of them was "i didnt know i had to let the musicians know what songs to learn". ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?! Like we just play a few magical notes and make a wish and all of a sudden we can play any song. give me a break. Thats your job if your a P&W leader. then when one of the ladies agrees and says that her husband (who happens to be my mentor, but plays for another church) needs the songs in advance to learn them, they say "we didnt know it took all that". Really, like we just touch the CD and absorb songs. seriously.

i got mad arguing with my aunt, who was one of those people, when i got home. i talked to my grandmother, my brother and at the moment chatting with my sister-in-law, all who are trying to console me. but im still contemplating sunday telling my pastor that im gonna quit.

At the very least, all musicians should have a list of songs prior to rehearsal and service because preparation is essential to a successful rehearsal.

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2008, 03:19:34 PM »
honestly, i could care less about getting respect.  I just want us to take the service to another level.  What they do isn't what's best for the church.  Period.  It's even embarrassing sometimes.

Well, you are correct. I didn't think of it that way, but that's what it should be about.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline Fingers!

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2008, 04:23:05 PM »
...At show time, she wanted to sing songs that we didn't rehearse. I definately hadn't heard the songs, nor did all the choir members. As musicians, we fell into place and the crowd did not know that we didn't know the songs...

Yep. I agree.  But every week??  That can become very nerve-wrecking.  They JUST started telling me which song we're about to play (30 sec. in advance) and I just totally ignore them.  Before, they told me nothing.  I had to listen and recognize the first two or three notes and then fall in in a hurry.  Talking to them got me nowhere.  The best thing I can say is to try and practice very often (on your own) most of the main songs that y'all are playing at the moment.  If they catch you off guard and you mess it up, oh well. 

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2008, 07:54:59 PM »
The best thing I can say is to try and practice very often (on your own) most of the main songs that y'all are playing at the moment.  If they catch you off guard and you mess it up, oh well. 


That's what I do. I'm constantly keeping myself abreast of the latest. It really helps. Even if I don't learn to play the songs, I've heard them over and over that I know the changes in my mind.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline Main5playah

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2008, 08:20:35 AM »
I feel you doc.  I recently (as in last Sabbath) retired from my position because of the something along the same line.  But mine stems a bit deeper.  I'm still playing on Sundays, but at my church there's no dedication to excellence and people are too content with garbage, regardless of the talks.

Sometimes you do need to remove yourself from certain situations, but since they know now mayble they'll change.  Sadly, that didn't happen in my case.

Big "J" you are wise beyond your years my bottom brother, when I was in NY we had a gifted brother that played keys (I said gifted not anointed) but his ego was way beyond his gift as he would show up for rehearsal and service late and leave early with his friends. He felt as though without him the earth wouldn't revolve. On Sundays he would frequently play the wrong key, or forget the song because his loyalty was to his personal group and not the church, who by the way was paying him $1000.00 to minister. I finally had enough and quit I had to because I just hate to be in a bunch of mess. I later join the praise team and ministered with that group.
It sounds like its time to have a talk with God and allow him to lead you in determining where he really wants to use you.
Main5playah

Offline jeremyr

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2008, 08:34:48 AM »
Big "J" you are wise beyond your years my bottom brother, when I was in NY we had a gifted brother that played keys (I said gifted not anointed) but his ego was way beyond his gift as he would show up for rehearsal and service late and leave early with his friends. He felt as though without him the earth wouldn't revolve. On Sundays he would frequently play the wrong key, or forget the song because his loyalty was to his personal group and not the church, who by the way was paying him $1000.00 to minister. I finally had enough and quit I had to because I just hate to be in a bunch of mess. I later join the praise team and ministered with that group.
It sounds like its time to have a talk with God and allow him to lead you in determining where he really wants to use you.

it's funny you mentioned this.

I will play for people that request me to play because then they are USUALLY about business and want to get things right  like Mens day. 

We are starting a praise and worship team now, so i'll be playing with them.  The only problem is finding a keybaord player (which I might have to fill the role until we find someone else).  All and all, I'm not completely out the game, but I'm done with being in the midst of a mess.
Somebody put me in the key of E#

Offline dhagler

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2008, 02:20:49 PM »
I got the songs we were doing today when I got to church.  Some I knew well, others not quite as well.  It's certainly frustrating, but what do you do?  You say a prayer, then play them the best you can.  We were in Vacation Bible School this week so there was no rehearsal, but our MOM could have gotten the songs to us sooner than today (and he didn't even call me, he just called the lead musician and that was at 8:30 this morning!).  Procrastination and absent-mindedness are in his nature, so what do you do?  The answer is, you pray and do the best you can.  Yes, everyone should bring professionalism and a Christian attitude to the table but the reality is that everyone does not.  But we are still charged with the task to trying to work together.

Pray for one another. Do the best you can.

Offline browntree

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2008, 10:35:28 PM »
Psalm 133 states the following:
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.


God is a God of order and harmony.  He is not a God on confusion.  God wants us to be informed; the Bible states that we (as Christians) perish because of a lack of knowledge. 

What am I saying???
God is a God of knowledge and unity; if you find yourself surrounded by covertness and confusion you are not in the presence of the Holy Spirit. 

Browntree

And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

Offline DWBass

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2008, 06:33:00 AM »
Psalm 133 states the following:
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.


God is a God of order and harmony.  He is not a God on confusion.  God wants us to be informed; the Bible states that we (as Christians) perish because of a lack of knowledge. 

What am I saying???
God is a God of knowledge and unity; if you find yourself surrounded by covertness and confusion you are not in the presence of the Holy Spirit. 

Browntree

And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
Amen!
"Never Leave Home Without Your Groove On" :)

Offline floaded27

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2008, 09:34:08 AM »
well i did play today, i didnt quit. i had a bit of that "i told u so" spirit though, but i didnt respond to it. the organist was late, the one who they rely on as they ignore us other musicians, but the P&W team had to start with only the drummer. (i always take my time to play cause i stall for the organist, not cause i need him but they never seem to stay in one key if its just the bass playing and that drives me crazy). but all in all, i did learn the choir songs (they do the same thing) but one of them they didnt even sing. i didnt sweat it and went on as best as i could.

i get what u sayin browntree. but the Holy Spirit does come in, but i think the main part of the problem is that people dont develop themselves in their position. For instance, if God called you into the ministry, u should try to continue to refine yourself to become the best minister u can be. but if u dont, u can possibly be a bad or ineffective minister, but that doesnt mean u arent still called. in crude terms, u just need to step ur game up. (***not referring to you specifically***)

i see as we all talk, i see that the common thing here is that we all want to be better bass players and better musicians. we study under others, share resources and experiences, inquire opinions/critique of or methods and techniques and overalls style, experiment and explore to get what we want out of our equipment, etc. None of us just learn the E-A-D-G, major and minor scale and say "im content" and go no further in our craft, but thats the equivalent of what others seem to do in their roles particularly positions of leadership. And thats when u get all this chaos and disorder happening.

on the plus side, i was able to continue writing a song i been working on. its a song born out of despair. its really touched a few people that have heard it as i was working on it. i just hope most of my songs arent born out of despair, because if so i have a feeling i'll find myself back in this place once again in order to experience and complete the song.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline browntree

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2008, 02:51:31 PM »
well i did play today, i didnt quit. i had a bit of that "i told u so" spirit though, but i didnt respond to it.
Good for you floaded27...it's all a trick of the Devil

Let me share with you all some things the Holy Spirit explained to me...

-Although we are all Christians we can still allow ourselves to be used by the Devil.  He'll creep in (if you let him) and use that little weakness that everyone has against you.

-Sometimes it is the spirit in you that provokes the people around you.  That Godly spirit that you exude enrages those unholy spirits in some folks.  So it's the spirit in you that they hate... not you personally.  This is why when floaded27 decided to bite his tongue and not say I told you so, he let the Holy Spirit reside instead of allowing himself to be used in an unholy way.  They want you to say..."I told you so" so they can say "see...he ain't no better than us...".

-Careful of the company you keep; I've been shown lately that Christian friends that I truly enjoy being around, I cannot! Why?? Because although they believe in Jesus Christ, they still deny him because of their own self-serving interests (this one ain't new in music).  This is very dangerous; it is not smart to play with the devil.  If you give him an inch, he'll take a foot... if you let him convince you that you are a better musician than joe-blow, he'll convince you you are the best thing since sliced bread... see he takes something simple like an opinion and turns it into pride (if you allow him). 

-God cannot make you do anything.  He has given us free will.  The Holy Spirit inhabits his people. However if you are not a TRUE follower of Jesus Christ, the devil can make you do anything he wants.  He cares nothing about free will. Why?  Because the devil does not inhabit...the devil possesses... this is why you get the reactions you get from some folk.  Sometimes they are sweet as pie, and other times they will bite you head off...


 

Browntree

And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

Offline Browntiplocs

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2008, 12:27:41 PM »
It could be worse. You could be a member of a church and, even though u are willing to volunteer your gifts, can't play there (or anywhere else with them) unless you are on paid staff.......so they can control u.  That is my situation and I tell u, stay encouraged!!

Offline dhagler

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2008, 01:06:44 PM »
If God has blessed you with a talent, He will provide a venue for you to use that talent to His glory.
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