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Author Topic: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)  (Read 1688 times)

Offline L.V.Drumma

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Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« on: June 11, 2008, 12:58:31 PM »
...I was looking through Master Studies II the other day and came to page 72.  Ok, so i dont really understand how these can be played in a meter.  Someone helped me out with this on my other account but i deleted it before i started practicing what the person told me, so now i forgot it all. Can someone break this down to me and even post a clip with the help?

Offline L.V.Drumma

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2008, 02:37:04 PM »
Hold on let me correct some things. I understand how they could be played if its something over the bar but if you look on page 72 and 74, the groups of five and seven fit into a single quarter note, now thats what i dont understand.

Offline baldeagle

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2008, 03:59:07 PM »
Think of a pie. Lemon, apple, it doesn't matter. (If cheesecake is your thing, use it.) You can slice a pie in half, in 3 equal pieces, in 4 equal pieces, in 5 equal pieces, etc. You still have one whole pie, you just divided it differently. Same amount of pie, just different number of slices.

The quarter note is the pie. The divisions are the slices. If you count 8th notes (which is a quarter note broken into 2 pieces) you would count 1 &. If you count 16th notes (which is a quarter note broken into 4 pieces) you would count
1 e & a. I'm not sure about the count names for 5's, but it would be along the same idea.

One thing you might try doing (for your break-down sake) is consider each quarter note as 1 whole measure. Clap each quarter note slowly, at a constant tempo. And while doing that count to five (using equal increments of space). Another way would be to continually count to five, and each time you get to the 1, clap your hands. Each clap would be considered a quarter note, and you have started to teach your brain how to count and separate in 5's. The next step is to turn on a metronome, and repeat the previous step (using the metronome clicks as your quarter notes, and using your sticks on a snare (or practice pad) you would count to five (with each click of the 'nome being the 1).

Someone else may have another way, but this is how I learned. I taught myself, and I teach kids (and they learn it like this, I just did it yesterday, so I know it works)

Hope this helps.

Someone else
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Offline thescientist

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2008, 01:34:56 AM »
Adding to what baldeagle stated, I usually count 5s by saying "ba-da-gi-di-ga"
 and 7s by saying "ba-da-ba-da-gi-di-ga"

Offline seemunny

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2008, 02:34:53 AM »
Adding to what baldeagle stated, I usually count 5s by saying "ba-da-gi-di-ga"
 and 7s by saying "ba-da-ba-da-gi-di-ga"

Man, that sound like the "speaking in tongues" way to do it!  :o

8)

Offline MENDOZA

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2008, 07:22:11 AM »
This is a great topic!!! Not many get out of the even numbers because this is natural to most.  When you start getting into the odd numbers (besides the triplet, which everyone here pretty much knows or has played it without  knowing LOL  :D ;D ;D), it tends to get more uncomfortable. Since you're dealing with playing these 5's and 7's in a duration of one pulse, here's one way of doing it. 

For the 5's I use this with my students so they can understand the concept.  I use a syllable system as previously stated by the scientist, but with English words LOL!!  So Quintuplet will be u-ni-ver-si-ty or hi-ppo-[b]pot-ta-mus (sp?).  [/b] So put the metronome on and try to fit those words EVENLY within that pulse.  For the seven, I haven't really figured out anything that's extravagent, but we can go back to our childhood days and the 7 will equal e-nee-mi-ni-mai-ni-mo.  LOL!!! ;D ;D  I know it sounds silly, but it WORKS!!!!!!  Trust me people remember it more because it's silly.  So what happens is the the syllables are really spaced out evenly so you can just play it in time.  Just make sure you start SLOW!!!!!!!  WITH A METRONOME!  I hope this helps.  Take care and God Bless.

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Offline bigblackdrummer

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2008, 08:45:51 AM »
Was your question answered? Because Im wondering if you are working on "Linear Phrasing" or are you just trying to figure out odd meter. If you are working on Linear Phrasing google Rick Gratton. He's King of Linear Phrasing and has been teaching it to even some of the big dogs of drumming. I can explain it to you but not by typing, PM me your number and I will call you.
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Offline L.V.Drumma

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2008, 04:39:32 PM »
Thanks everybody for the answers.  And BBD i'm not yet to that point yet but ill PM you my number when i get done working on some current things bro.

Offline bigblackdrummer

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2008, 05:53:13 PM »
Thanks everybody for the answers.  And BBD i'm not yet to that point yet but ill PM you my number when i get done working on some current things bro.

Cool man we will talk soon.
Mapex Drums, Grant Custom Basses, Carparelli Basses, Istanbul Cymbals,!

Offline SabianKnight

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2008, 08:12:44 PM »
Hold on let me correct some things. I understand how they could be played if its something over the bar but if you look on page 72 and 74, the groups of five and seven fit into a single quarter note, now thats what i dont understand.

You are talking about stuff that was based off the Table of Time in Master Studies I.
There are 16 main sub-divisions of a quarter note... Master studies I covers 12 on the Table of Time (I don't have book II yet however what I'll explain applies...)
The 16 sub-divisions give you 4notes per 16th note=64th notes
So if you start with the understanding that every note can be evenly divided you will enable yourself to treat every grouping as even (simply adding a rest to the end as Stick Control does)
5 would be simply a sextuplet with a rest 12345rest(&) ex:RLLRL which or your can simply think 3/8 time in your head as in 1& 2& 3rest(&) =12345rest(&)

Note: In Master Studies a lot of the groupings are most effectively learned after the Fill-In method is mastered (you are only as good as your weakest hand/limb)... then you will see that 5s are based off of 3s = quarter notes played in 3 (1&2&3) or 8th note triplets played in 3/8 time where sixteenth notes are the &s/up beats (1&a/1 trip let/1 tee ta = 1& 2& 3 or 1& && a).... I got understanding of this info from Gary Chaffee's vids and Master Studies and God ...as =well you can approach it as Mike Portnoy (123 12 to the quarter or 1234 123 to the quarter) as a super-imposed time signature (ie. polyrhythm -fake out) So in a groove it might be 1& 2& [323 &2] 4&a 1... I know I am sick but there is no cure, LOL. Oh and 7s are based off 4s, so RRRR would have fill-ins RLRLRLR = 1234567 or 1e&a-&e7a(rest).

When you feel groupings as even the groove stays smooth and flowing remember triplets are 3 evenly spaced notes within the space of 2. So 3s are to 2s, 5s are to 4s, 6s are to 4s, 7s are  to 4s or 7s are to 6s and so on. As well remember that 6/8 and 12/8 which are triplet based EQUAL 4/4 in feel when understood and played with that understanding. One should be able to transition seamlessly between them. See Steve Holmes DVD, Shedding Some Light or Chris Coleman's DVD - Dynamic Drumming 3.
Try not to become a person of success but rather a person of VALUE. - T. Harv Eker

Offline CARLISLE

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2008, 09:53:12 PM »
You are talking about stuff that was based off the Table of Time in Master Studies I.
There are 16 main sub-divisions of a quarter note... Master studies I covers 12 on the Table of Time (I don't have book II yet however what I'll explain applies...)
The 16 sub-divisions give you 4notes per 16th note=64th notes
So if you start with the understanding that every note can be evenly divided you will enable yourself to treat every grouping as even (simply adding a rest to the end as Stick Control does)
5 would be simply a sextuplet with a rest 12345rest(&) ex:RLLRL which or your can simply think 3/8 time in your head as in 1& 2& 3rest(&) =12345rest(&)

Note: In Master Studies a lot of the groupings are most effectively learned after the Fill-In method is mastered (you are only as good as your weakest hand/limb)... then you will see that 5s are based off of 3s = quarter notes played in 3 (1&2&3) or 8th note triplets played in 3/8 time where sixteenth notes are the &s/up beats (1&a/1 trip let/1 tee ta = 1& 2& 3 or 1& && a).... I got understanding of this info from Gary Chaffee's vids and Master Studies and God ...as =well you can approach it as Mike Portnoy (123 12 to the quarter or 1234 123 to the quarter) as a super-imposed time signature (ie. polyrhythm -fake out) So in a groove it might be 1& 2& [323 &2] 4&a 1... I know I am sick but there is no cure, LOL. Oh and 7s are based off 4s, so RRRR would have fill-ins RLRLRLR = 1234567 or 1e&a-&e7a(rest).

When you feel groupings as even the groove stays smooth and flowing remember triplets are 3 evenly spaced notes within the space of 2. So 3s are to 2s, 5s are to 4s, 6s are to 4s, 7s are  to 4s or 7s are to 6s and so on. As well remember that 6/8 and 12/8 which are triplet based EQUAL 4/4 in feel when understood and played with that understanding. One should be able to transition seamlessly between them. See Steve Holmes DVD, Shedding Some Light or Chris Coleman's DVD - Dynamic Drumming 3.
I guess I should look at drumming as numders instead of feel. maybe it will give me a better understanding of music
You can make it happen; whatever you want

Bear..    http://www.myspace.com/lintonlouise1

Offline JFunky

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 08:29:37 AM »
I guess I should look at drumming as numders instead of feel. maybe it will give me a better understanding of music

...LOL.  Me personally, I want both the feel of music and the understanding of what I'm playing.  ("Note Theory" as my man j_kay told me Victor Wooten calls it instead of "Music Theory.")


Psalms 144.1 - "Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle."

Offline SabianKnight

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 10:05:35 PM »
I guess I should look at drumming as numders instead of feel. maybe it will give me a better understanding of music
Music is math that is a spiritual equation.

Numerals from God that we misunderstand in life and music: 3(perfect) hump, flow, circular motion, sine wave, 4(creativity) spaces on the staff, number of basic strokes, 5(grace)line on a music staff, 6(man), 7(completion) essential rudiments, 8(new beginning)octave, 12(tribes, etc...), 26 alphabet in English 26 U.S. Standard Rudiments (basis of Marco Minneman's latest book)

Feel comes from your ability to interpret and understand the numbers and communicate the message in the numbers/music .
Try not to become a person of success but rather a person of VALUE. - T. Harv Eker

Offline CARLISLE

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 12:57:39 AM »
Music is math that is a spiritual equation.

Numerals from God that we misunderstand in life and music: 3(perfect) hump, flow, circular motion, sine wave, 4(creativity) spaces on the staff, number of basic strokes, 5(grace)line on a music staff, 6(man), 7(completion) essential rudiments, 8(new beginning)octave, 12(tribes, etc...), 26 alphabet in English 26 U.S. Standard Rudiments (basis of Marco Minneman's latest book)

Feel comes from your ability to interpret and understand the numbers and communicate the message in the numbers/music .
I will be reading this quote for a long time/  reminds me of the days I was learning the ways of the 5%ers.
they deal in number as well.
You can make it happen; whatever you want

Bear..    http://www.myspace.com/lintonlouise1

Offline SabianKnight

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 01:34:22 AM »
I will be reading this quote for a long time/  reminds me of the days I was learning the ways of the 5%ers.
they deal in number as well.

Note: I am not now nor ever have been a 5er though I have known some as well as Nation/FOI guys back in the hey days of X-Clan, P.E. w/  Professor Griff & The S1Ws, Sista Souljah, GangStar, Paris,  etc.

I am a Renaissance Man... or at least strive to be. Plan and simple. 8)
Try not to become a person of success but rather a person of VALUE. - T. Harv Eker

Offline CARLISLE

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Re: Groups of five and seven(or anything other than the usual)
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 02:45:45 AM »
Note: I am not now nor ever have been a 5er though I have known some as well as Nation/FOI guys back in the hey days of X-Clan, P.E. w/  Professor Griff & The S1Ws, Sista Souljah, GangStar, Paris,  etc.

I am a Renaissance Man... or at least strive to be. Plan and simple. 8)
well if you know your way around the block then you know how fascinating a conversation with a 5%er is.
how the knowledge just grabs you, but still noone knowledge can compare the knowledge of my God
You can make it happen; whatever you want

Bear..    http://www.myspace.com/lintonlouise1
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