Basses are we paying for the name or are we paying for what we get

[BigFoot_BigThumb]

Yeah man.  This is always a fun one.  There have been several points made on all sides which are very valid, I'm interested to see where this one goes...

I would say in the case of Callowhill Bass Guitars, you definitely get what you pay for.  From the body and top woods, to the paint jobs, it's all high quality and not some cookie cutter gear.  As simple as the wood etching on the headstock, it's all custom.  Even with the electronics.  Most of the big boys give you Barts, but they're just licensed versions and not some of their best examples.  Who else gives you Norstrands standard?  Norstrands are in no way cheap.  The fact that he chooses those are pretty indicative of the concern for quality vs quanity.  I gots to get me one of those one day.   

Now some of the other production basses costs the same amount and they give you nowhere near the same quality of workmanship.  Most of the time you're just paying for the name on the headstock.  The fact that they're willing to take shorts by offering different levels of quality shows you what's important to them.  If the top of the line model is the best why not give your customers that all across the board?  It's something to think about.     

[ptidwell]

Okay, I guess its time to chime in with my opinion, there seems to be generalization as to who these brand names are that are selling a name but an inferior instrument.
quite humbly I am a boutique buyer, I own MTD, Nordstrand, Skjold, and Ken Smith, MTD & Skjold I own more than one of, I have owned other boutique bass but have become very fond of MTD & Skjold. I have spoken with all of these luithiers, at length concerning woods, pickups, electronics, scale lenth, fret wire, the tone I am after the fell of the neck, the balance of the bass etc. I don't know how many folks here would know the difference between a bass that is hand crafted or CNC'd, and I don't know who can build a bass with parts totaling $50.00 massed produced other than maybe Brownsville basses , Just the ability to talk to the luithier and hear his opinion first hand on what work and what doesn't is a value you never get with MIM Fender, or Ibanez, and Yamaha which all made good basses, but Carey delivered my Nordy to my house personally (the picture of Nordy players on his site he look of me receiving my bass)
Maybe that's not a value to you. Mike Tobias was on vacation and took time to work through an issue i had when my MTD was stolen. Pete Skjold time and attention, suggestions and wood selections have been worth the price that from what it sound most who have posted on this thread would not pay. Many of you here are buying CallowHill, I recently talked with Tim just expressing my interest in his basses, and what I would like from his shop, and he was more than helpful and knowledgeable and has a future client. I am saying all that to say this, if what I am reading is to imply that, the for lack of a better phrase the lower priced basses are equal to the boutique brands less electronics and pickups, and that the build quality is equal to a handcrafted instrument, and the ability to select woods, hardware, customized electronics, exotic tops, and the like doesn't cost the luither more time and attention to detail doesn't significantly raise the price, I am probably way off base with my opinion. I would like to know what I should be buying that after the initial say $500-$600 pluss a $200.00 upgrade will render me and instrument equal to my boutique's I will convert. but this is just IMHO.     

[BassbyGrace]

I feel ya pt.  Shoot, after playing Gouche's MTD, I was like, wowwww.  One day me and my coworker brought in all our basses.  We had a fender custom shop 4, my 5501, his Musicman, his Sadowsky P/J, a Ken Smith, and his Custom Alleva Copollo LG-5.  And just like the lineup, the feel, sound and quality went up with each one.  I thought about this when I read this thread.  Each of them can get it done, but if I had to choose out of that group, the AC would come with me lol.
  I'll just say this, dont pick up any boutique basses and you'll never even have to know what the difference is LOLOL. 

[BigFoot_BigThumb]

Very well put PT.  I met Mike Tobias and had a lengthy conversation with him at NAMM a few years back.  That is one man that is super serious about his craft.  He was a little upset when I started talking to him and he stated that it was because of what happened to his brand after the Gibson deal.  He was so upset about what he saw at their booth.  I thought that their versions were ok, but he said they were "CRAP."  Forgive me if that is not allowed here.  I mean this man was livid.  That actually made me respect him more.  He let me know that he cares about the product above sales.  That's what I am looking for now in a product.  How far are you willing to go to please me as a customer the first time out?   
   

[fLaT-fIfTh]

+1 to PTidwell... The custom experience is just that...CUSTOM. A great luthier will customize your instrument to YOUR taste, YOUR needs, and YOUR desires. To me, that's worth a lot. To be able to call Mike Tobias and discuss my order, past builds, future builds, or just the weather in New York is worth a lot. Moreover, after knowing Mike for only a couple years, I now have a fluent knowledge of different wood types and how they affect tone. The education alone is worth the extra coin... Then to fly out and be a part of our project... What starts out as a purchase can become a relationship. Then there's the quality of craftmanship... MTD4LYFE!

God bless

[malthumb]

Another +1 for PTidwell's comments.

I have a bunch of boutique basses and an MIM Fender that I modified.  My total cost for acquiring the bass and modifying it was $545.  That includes buying the bass used, adding an Audere preamp and Aero pickups, adding a tort pickguard and the chrome Fender pickup and bridge covers, and acquiring a bound / block neck.

It sounds absolutely GREAT!

Does it compare AS A TOTAL PACKAGE to any of my boutiques?  No.  I invite anyone in the Detroit area to spend some time with my modified Fender and any of my more expensive basses and tell me honestly what your perception of overall quality (tone, workmanship, balance, playability) would be. 

With all the things I've done to the Fender, I've improved tone considerably and I've improved appearance (IMHO) considerably.  All the other things (workmanship, balance, playability) are the domain of the luthier.

My Fender is a $545 bass that plays like a $1,000 bass.  Everything else in my collection is what it is.  They all retail for more than $2,000 and in my own comparisons to the Fender, it shows.  Now clicking back to the questions posed by the OP, I could EASILY make due with my MIM Fender in most situations.  My audience might never know the difference.  I prefer to play the others because they do everything the Fender does and then some and they do it (IMHO) better.  PTidwell's post highlights issues relative to company support.  I can say that the support I've received from Alembic and Roscoe, in particular, has been astounding.  I'm a phone call away from the owners of both companies.  I know that Mike Tobias is the same way.  I hear great things about Tim at Callowhill.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to a matter of choice and feel.  You will find that most people who own more than one "boutique" bass will tiell you that they ARE worth the extra money.  Or logically they would never have bought the second one.

Peace,

James

[mjl422]

I think it really boils down to cost vs worth.  Worth is so subjective. 

Somebody might say it's worth it just to be able to talk to the luthier and get his opinion/suggestions on woods, electronics...etc.  Whereas somebody else may not be interested in talking to the luthier (other than to place his/her order). 

One person might say the feel and sound is 1000x times better.  Another might say "yeah, it's better but, not $2000 better". 

Also, if somebody is paying a mortgage, daycare for their children, a car payment (or two) and playing on Sunday morning for next to nothing, maybe a boutique bass isn't worth it. 

Personally, I think if you are smart about who you choose to build your instrument, you do get what you pay for.  Whether it's worth it or not is for each individual to decide for himself.  The good thing is there are some quality, inexpensive, instruments (that you can actually gig with) out there for those of us who don't have the money for boutique basses right now.

[CallowHill]

PT is on point.  Mjl422 said, "I think it really boils down to cost vs worth.  Worth is so subjective."  I think that sums it up really well too.  I've talked many potential customers out of buying a bass from me because I could tell they need to spend their money elsewhere.  "Yeah, I'm flattered you got a quick windfall of cash and want a CallowHill, but aren't you the same dude who was calling me a year ago and unable to buy one because of a new addition to the family?  Put that money away and think about it for a few months."

The CNC thing with Roger is a whole can of worms.  Dhagler is a guy who I really respect on this forum, but if anyone saw what Roger gets back from the cnc shop they would quickly understand that there is a HUGE difference between a Sadowsky and a Warmoth.  Roger and his crew have several skilled operations of carving, sanding, trueing, and fretting before the pieces they get even resemble a neck that compares to a "finished" Warmoth.  Same deal for the bodies.  The end result is an instrument that is worth every penny.

At the end of the day, my view is that no one has a right to belittle someone for spending $300 on a bass, and no one has a right to belittle someone for spending $3000 on a bass.  I could write a book on the whole subject, I suppose the last thing I'd point out is that while many guys in my position charge around 3K for a bass, we aren't doing it to get rich.  We are commited to our craft and work incredibly long hours to do what we do, building a 3K bass with uncompromising materials and methods is NOT a rich man's game.  It's actually a modest living requiring a ton of hard work and patience. 

[ddwilkins]

You get what you pay for. Who wouldn't want something customized like this?

[jeremyr]

The CNC thing with Roger is a whole can of worms.  Dhagler is a guy who I really respect on this forum, but if anyone saw what Roger gets back from the cnc shop they would quickly understand that there is a HUGE difference between a Sadowsky and a Warmoth.  Roger and his crew have several skilled operations of carving, sanding, trueing, and fretting before the pieces they get even resemble a neck that compares to a "finished" Warmoth.  Same deal for the bodies.  The end result is an instrument that is worth every penny.. 

Thats the same here in chicago at the lakland factory.  I've been there MAAAAANNNYYY times and have had first had experience and looks at the build process while talking to Carl Pedigo (who btw is an AWESOME guy) and really all the cnc does is cut the *outline* of the bass neck.   ther'es still TONS of work that needs to be done before the neck could ever be considered finish, unless you like playing a bass who's neck profile resembles a hybrid lego/lincoln log...LOL

[dhagler]

Dhagler is a guy who I really respect on this forum, but if anyone saw what Roger gets back from the cnc shop they would quickly understand that there is a HUGE difference between a Sadowsky and a Warmoth.

Did I say something I didn't hear me say?

[ddwilkins]

This video here will help clear some things as to why people go towards boutique basses. You'll see the time and effort put into basses. This is Ken Smith basses.

http://www.webcastgroup.com/webcast/window_new/frameset.asp?WebcastID=3149&n=&e2=&c=&nf=&nl=&r=&i

[CallowHill]

Did I say something I didn't hear me say?

Aaaah!!!!!  I'm such an idiot!  I meant DWBass, the "D"s threw me off.  I'm sorry!   

[jeremyr]

This video here will help clear some things as to why people go towards boutique basses. You'll see the time and effort put into basses. This is Ken Smith basses.

http://www.webcastgroup.com/webcast/window_new/frameset.asp?WebcastID=3149&n=&e2=&c=&nf=&nl=&r=&i

thank you SOOOOO much for this video!!!!!

This stuff blows me away!!!! Hopefully the deal for my house goes through soon, so I can start making mine.

[Torch7]

thank you SOOOOO much for this video!!!!!

This stuff blows me away!!!! Hopefully the deal for my house goes through soon, so I can start making mine.

Props on the house, praying it goes through....

[dhagler]

Aaaah!!!!!  I'm such an idiot!  I meant DWBass, the "D"s threw me off.  I'm sorry!   

Thanks, Tim.  I read back over my posts a couple of times just to be sure.

[jeremyr]

Props on the house, praying it goes through....

thanks man.

Here's a picture of said house in question.

[CallowHill]

Thats the same here in chicago at the lakland factory.  I've been there MAAAAANNNYYY times and have had first had experience and looks at the build process while talking to Carl Pedigo (who btw is an AWESOME guy) and really all the cnc does is cut the *outline* of the bass neck.   ther'es still TONS of work that needs to be done before the neck could ever be considered finish, unless you like playing a bass who's neck profile resembles a hybrid lego/lincoln log...LOL

Well said.  I hold dhagler (sorry again) and dwbass in highest regards around here (among many others) so I wasn't knocking dwbass, I just wanted to make it clear that cnc parts are often a mess when you get them.  I cnc alot of my own stuff in house with my own machine, but I do it because it allows me to focus on the fine hand work and get more of the rough stuff done more efficiently.  Roger, Lakland - those guys bring some real craftsmanship and skill to the table. 

[fLaT-fIfTh]

PT is on point.  Mjl422 said, "I think it really boils down to cost vs worth.  Worth is so subjective."  I think that sums it up really well too.  I've talked many potential customers out of buying a bass from me because I could tell they need to spend their money elsewhere.  "Yeah, I'm flattered you got a quick windfall of cash and want a CallowHill, but aren't you the same dude who was calling me a year ago and unable to buy one because of a new addition to the family?  Put that money away and think about it for a few months."

The CNC thing with Roger is a whole can of worms.  Dhagler is a guy who I really respect on this forum, but if anyone saw what Roger gets back from the cnc shop they would quickly understand that there is a HUGE difference between a Sadowsky and a Warmoth.  Roger and his crew have several skilled operations of carving, sanding, trueing, and fretting before the pieces they get even resemble a neck that compares to a "finished" Warmoth.  Same deal for the bodies.  The end result is an instrument that is worth every penny.

At the end of the day, my view is that no one has a right to belittle someone for spending $300 on a bass, and no one has a right to belittle someone for spending $3000 on a bass.  I could write a book on the whole subject, I suppose the last thing I'd point out is that while many guys in my position charge around 3K for a bass, we aren't doing it to get rich.  We are commited to our craft and work incredibly long hours to do what we do, building a 3K bass with uncompromising materials and methods is NOT a rich man's game.  It's actually a modest living requiring a ton of hard work and patience. 

Yo that 7 string Callowhill on TB is THE BUSINESS. Keep carving, dude...

God bless

[Torch7]

thanks man.

Here's a picture of said house in question.

Sweet!  Nice Curb appeal.  Home ownership is exciting!  This your first?............just realized, I'm straight jacking this thread...